（中英附文稿）一出错就骂自己？从羞耻到自我慈悲，学会纠正错误
字幕摘录
| 时间 | 英文 | 中文 |
|---|---|---|
| 0:00 | Shame Springs Eternal because the wish to be loved Springs Eternal. | 羞耻的泉永恒 因为希望被爱的泉永恒. |
| 0:03 | We've been, we've wished | 我们一直,我们一直希望 |
| 0:04 | to be loved since we were born. | 从我们出生起就被爱着 |
| 0:06 | However, we haven't actually been loved exactly at the right time and | 然而,我们并没有真正被爱 在正确的时间和 |
| 0:11 | the right way to the right amount by the right people. | 正确的方式 正确的金额 由正确的人。 |
| 0:14 | And we've been hurt over and over and | 我们一直被伤害 |
| 0:16 | over again. | 再来一次 |
| 0:17 | We've kind of forgotten the wish to be loved. | 我们忘记了被爱的愿望 |
| 0:19 | We've forgotten ultimately the motivation | 我们最终忘记了动机 |
| 0:22 | behind shame. | 羞耻的背后。 |
展开字幕全文（183 条）
| 序号 | 英文 | 中文 |
|---|---|---|
| 1 | Shame Springs Eternal because the wish to be loved Springs Eternal. | 羞耻的泉永恒 因为希望被爱的泉永恒. |
| 2 | We've been, we've wished | 我们一直,我们一直希望 |
| 3 | to be loved since we were born. | 从我们出生起就被爱着 |
| 4 | However, we haven't actually been loved exactly at the right time and | 然而,我们并没有真正被爱 在正确的时间和 |
| 5 | the right way to the right amount by the right people. | 正确的方式 正确的金额 由正确的人。 |
| 6 | And we've been hurt over and over and | 我们一直被伤害 |
| 7 | over again. | 再来一次 |
| 8 | We've kind of forgotten the wish to be loved. | 我们忘记了被爱的愿望 |
| 9 | We've forgotten ultimately the motivation | 我们最终忘记了动机 |
| 10 | behind shame. | 羞耻的背后。 |
| 11 | So when we reconnect with that, this is an incredible revelation for folks. | 所以,当我们与它重新联系起来, 这是令人难以置信的启示给人们。 |
| 12 | When we reconnect with the wish to be loved, shame starts to dissolve. | 当我们与被爱的愿望重合时,羞耻开始溶解. |
| 13 | It loses its grip. | 它失去控制。 |
| 14 | Hello and welcome to Being Well. | 你好 欢迎光临"好" |
| 15 | I'm Forrest Hansen. | 我是福瑞斯特・汉森 |
| 16 | If you're new to the show, | 如果你是新来的 |
| 17 | thanks for joining us today. | 谢谢你今天能来 |
| 18 | And if you've listened before, welcome back. | 如果你之前听过了 欢迎回来 |
| 19 | We talk about a lot of difficult emotions on the show. | 我们在节目中谈到很多困难的情绪. |
| 20 | And one of the hardest ones to work with | 和最难合作的人之一 |
| 21 | is shame. | 这是耻辱。 |
| 22 | That's partially because shame is a bit of a chameleon. | 部分原因是羞耻有点变色龙 |
| 23 | It tends to hide inside of | 它会藏在内心 |
| 24 | emotions like anger or anxiety or grief. | 情绪如愤怒、焦虑或悲伤。 |
| 25 | So it can be hard to figure out that you've got a bit of a | 所以很难想象你有一点 |
| 26 | shame problem. | 羞耻的问题。 |
| 27 | And part of it is because shame is really sticky. | 一部分是因为羞耻很粘 |
| 28 | The story that it tells us is that | 它告诉我们的故事是 |
| 29 | this part of who we are can't be shown to other people because if it is, we'll be attacked or | 我们的这部分人不能被展示给其他人 因为如果是这样,我们就会被攻击或 |
| 30 | blamed for it. | 被责备了 |
| 31 | So we hide from other people and sometimes from ourselves, but that hiding is what | 所以,我们躲 别人,有时我们自己, 但隐藏是什么 |
| 32 | tends to keep shame going. | 总是保持羞耻。 |
| 33 | Then one of the best tools we have for working with shame is self | 那么我们为羞耻而工作的最佳工具之一是自我 |
| 34 | compassion. | 发慈悲心. |
| 35 | But even there, we've got some problems. | 但即使在那里, 我们有一些问题。 |
| 36 | If you've ever tried to be kind to | 如果你曾经尝试过善待 |
| 37 | yourself in the middle of a shame spiral, you know exactly what I'm talking about here. | 你完全清楚我在说什么 |
| 38 | The moment | 那一刻 |
| 39 | you try, you immediately come up with every reason that you don't deserve kindness. | 你尝试,你立即想出 每一个你不该得到的善意的理由。 |
| 40 | So shame blocks | 这么羞耻 |
| 41 | the thing that would help us with shame. | 帮助我们感到羞耻 |
| 42 | So to help us through all of this, and clearly I need | 所以为了帮助我们度过这一切, 显然我需要 |
| 43 | some help here, I'm welcoming back a very special guest to the show, one of the world's leading | 帮个忙,我欢迎一位非常特别的嘉宾回来 参加这个节目,世界领先的一位 |
| 44 | experts on shame and self compassion, Dr. Chris Germer. | 关于羞耻和自我同情的专家,克里斯·格默博士。 |
| 45 | So Chris, how are you doing today? | 克里斯,你好吗? |
| 46 | Thanks, and what an amazing introduction to the subject. | 谢谢, 和多么令人惊奇的介绍 主题。 |
| 47 | You just summarized the entire book. | 你刚刚总结了整本书 |
| 48 | Well, I really appreciate it. | 嗯,我真的很感激它。 |
| 49 | I was definitely interested in doing this one with you today. | 我对今天跟你一起做这个很感兴趣 |
| 50 | And to tell you a little bit more about Chris, Dr. Germer is a clinical psychologist, a lecturer | 告诉你更多关于克里斯的事 格默医生是临床心理学家 讲师 |
| 51 | on psychiatry at Harvard Medical School, and the co-developer with Dr. Kristin Neff of the Mindful | 哈佛医学院精神病学博士 和心智科博士 共同开发者 |
| 52 | Self-Compassion Program, which I believe is now taught in around 30 languages for more than 3,000 | 自我同情方案,我认为现在用大约30种语言为3 000多人授课 |
| 53 | teachers. | 老师 |
| 54 | It is a huge and very successful program. | 这是一个巨大和非常成功的方案。 |
| 55 | And Chris is also the author and | 克里斯也是这个作者 |
| 56 | co-author of a number of books, including his new book, Self-Compassion for Shame, | 包括他的新书《羞愧的自我同情》 |
| 57 | a Step-by-Step Guide to Inner Freedom. | a 《内在自由一步指南》。 |
| 58 | And last time that we talked on the podcast, | 上次我们谈论播客, |
| 59 | it was a couple of years ago, we focused mostly on self-compassion and shame came up as this major | 几年前,我们主要关注自我同情 羞愧是这个主要 |
| 60 | impediment to self-compassion. | 阻碍自我同情。 |
| 61 | So self-compassion was the subject and shame kind of got in the way | 所以自我同情是 话题和羞耻 有点碍事 |
| 62 | of it. | 对 |
| 63 | And now in this new book, shame is the subject and self-compassion is the tool you're | 在新书中,羞耻是主题 自我同情是工具 |
| 64 | saying, hey, this helps us work with shame. | 说,嘿,这帮助我们工作 有羞耻。 |
| 65 | And there was something in that that I just | 里面有些东西,我只是 |
| 66 | thought was really interesting, this kind of like inversion of the focus. | 觉得很有趣 就像重心的颠倒 |
| 67 | So maybe we should start | 所以,也许我们应该开始 |
| 68 | with just what is shame and particularly this distinction that you make that I think is really | 与什么是羞耻, 特别是这种区别 你做的我认为真的 |
| 69 | helpful between being afraid of an experience. | 在害怕经验之间有所帮助 |
| 70 | Like for you, you talk about a fear of public | 就像你一样,你谈论恐惧公众 |
| 71 | in the book versus being afraid of being judged for something that's inside of that experience | 在书中 与害怕被 评断的东西 在那种经验 |
| 72 | in some way, or maybe just judged by who you fear people will see you as if you do a certain thing | 也许只是根据你害怕的人来判断 你就会觉得你做了一件事 |
| 73 | or come across a certain kind of way. | 或遇到某种方式。 |
| 74 | So shame is an attack on the self. | 所以羞耻是对自我的攻击. |
| 75 | Shame means I am bad. | 羞耻意味着我是坏的。 |
| 76 | And guilt means I did something bad. | 内疚意味着我做了坏事 |
| 77 | So when we're caught in shame, | 所以,当我们陷入耻辱, |
| 78 | our sense of self is being devalued. | 我们的自我感正在被贬低。 |
| 79 | Interestingly, when we practice self-compassion, | 有趣的是,当我们练习自我同情时, |
| 80 | our sense of self is being affirmed, is being valued, our humanity, even beyond our | 我们的自我感正在得到肯定, 正在受到重视, 我们的人性,甚至超越我们 |
| 81 | current sense of self is being valued. | 现在的自我意识正受到重视。 |
| 82 | So you cite a study in the book that found | 所以你在书中引用了一篇研究 |
| 83 | that shame tracks how much we anticipate being devalued by other people, more closely than | 羞耻地追寻着我们所期望的 被他人贬低的程度 比 |
| 84 | how badly we've actually behaved. | 我们的行为有多糟糕 |
| 85 | And I thought that this was really interesting because | 我觉得这很有趣 因为... |
| 86 | it highlights just how social this emotion is and how the pain points associated with it | 它凸显了这种情感的社会性 以及与之相关的痛苦点 |
| 87 | are mostly that like socially referenced aspect to it in terms of the fear of perception, fear of | 大多是社会上提到的方面,从对感知的恐惧和对恐惧的恐惧来看。 |
| 88 | being seen. | 被看见了 |
| 89 | And then that gets, as you're saying, to like some distinctions between shame and guilt | 然后,正如你所说, 喜欢一些区分 羞耻和内疚 |
| 90 | and shame and other similar emotions like embarrassment. | 和羞耻和其他类似的情绪 比如尴尬。 |
| 91 | What the research shows is that | 研究表明 |
| 92 | shame is more likely to occur when we are devalued. | 当我们被贬低时,羞耻更有可能发生。 |
| 93 | So some people can break the rules | 那样有人就会犯规 |
| 94 | over and over again and have a coterie of, you know, sycophants who support them for breaking | 一遍又一遍 拥有一个... 你知道... |
| 95 | the rules and they don't feel any shame that they should probably feel shame about, you know. | 规则和他们不觉得 任何羞耻 他们可能感到羞耻,你知道。 |
| 96 | But then there are other people who maybe have an identity, which is a minority identity that is | 但后来还有其他人也许有某种身份,这就是少数身份,也就是: |
| 97 | barraged or devalued by the culture. | 受到文化的打击或贬低。 |
| 98 | And they're experiencing shame all the time, but they never | 他们总是感到羞耻,但他们从来没有 |
| 99 | did anything wrong, you know. | 做错了什么,你知道的。 |
| 100 | So I think it's important to think about shame as chronic shame | 所以我觉得把羞耻当成长期羞耻很重要 |
| 101 | or trait shame or the shame that we carry around with us a lot because we've internalized certain | 或感到羞耻 或感到羞耻 我们带着我们很多 因为我们已经内化了某些 |
| 102 | messages in the world. | 在世界上的信息。 |
| 103 | It's important for us to think about shame as the product, partially of | 对我们来说重要的是 把羞耻看作是产品 部分 |
| 104 | being devalued rather than just breaking the rules. | 被贬低价值 而不是仅仅违反规则。 |
| 105 | One of the claims that you make in the book | 你在书中说的一个说法 |
| 106 | that I referenced in the introduction is that most of us don't really know when we're feeling | 我在导言中提到,我们大多数人 并不真正知道 当我们感觉 |
| 107 | shame because it can hide inside of other emotions. | 羞愧是因为它可以隐藏在其他情绪中. |
| 108 | I'm wondering what do you think helps people | 我在想你认为什么能帮助人们 |
| 109 | recognize that there's a shame issue of some kind that's kind of like hiding beneath everything? | 承认有 某种羞耻的问题 像隐藏在一切之下? |
| 110 | That's a really great question. | 这是一个非常好的问题。 |
| 111 | So for example, I had public speaking anxiety for 22 years and | 例如,我22年来 一直公开表达焦虑 |
| 112 | it was actually a shame disorder and I didn't see it. | 这实际上是一种羞耻的混乱, 我没有看到它。 |
| 113 | I didn't see it because I just couldn't | 我看不见,因为我不能 |
| 114 | tolerate the thought of being devalued by people in the audience. | 容忍在观众中被人们贬低的念头. |
| 115 | Sometimes in order to see it, | 有时候为了看到它 |
| 116 | it has to be a little less, you know. | 它必须少一点,你知道的。 |
| 117 | In other words, if there's a lot of shame, then we could | 换句话说,如果有太多的耻辱,那么我们可以 |
| 118 | get overwhelmed by it and then we just disappear and we can't address it, you know. | 被它淹没,然后我们就这样消失了 我们无法解决它,你知道的。 |
| 119 | So sometimes | 所以有时候 |
| 120 | it has to be lowered a little and that's what happened when I started to practice self-compassion. | 我开始练习自我同情时 就会这样 |
| 121 | It lowered my public speaking shame to a point where I could actually see that I was feeling | 这让我的公众演讲羞耻 以至于我可以看到我的感觉 |
| 122 | shame. | 真丢人 |
| 123 | But one of the things that we do in the Self-Compassion for Shame program and it's also | 但我们在"羞耻的自我同情"节目中所做的一件事 也是 |
| 124 | described in the book is we learn to actually identify how shame shows up in our lives. | 书中描述的是,我们学会了 确定生活中的耻辱是如何显现的。 |
| 125 | So for example, some people blush, some people have a sinking feeling, some people | 例如,有些人脸红,有些人有沉没的感觉,有些人 |
| 126 | behaviorally want to kind of go silent, disappear. | 行为上想 那种去沉默,消失。 |
| 127 | Sometimes we have a lump in our throat, | 有时我们的喉咙有块块, |
| 128 | sometimes it feels as if we got just got smacked in the chest. | 有时候感觉好像我们被打中了胸口 |
| 129 | Each of us has a way of feeling | 我们每个人都有一种感觉 |
| 130 | shame. | 真丢人 |
| 131 | And once we start becoming interested in shame, and hopefully this book, because it's kind | 一旦我们开始对羞耻感感兴趣 希望这本书,因为它是善良的 |
| 132 | of a positive non-pathologizing view of shame, hopefully this book will inspire people, inspire | 希望这本书能激励人们,激励人们 |
| 133 | their curiosity to ask the question, you know, knowing that shame is a universal human emotion, | 他们好奇地问这个问题, 你知道,知道羞耻是人类的普遍情感, |
| 134 | it's not a personal condemnation, to ask the question, how does shame show up in my life? | 这不是个人的谴责, 问一个问题, 羞耻如何出现在我的生活中? |
| 135 | First of all, how do I know when I'm feeling shame? | 首先,当我感到羞愧时,我怎么知道? |
| 136 | And when we have that curiosity and we can | 当我们有这种好奇心,我们可以 |
| 137 | actually identify shame while we're feeling shame, that's really the first step toward working with | 事实上,当我们感到羞耻的时候, 识别羞耻, 这真的是第一步 与工作 |
| 138 | it and frankly bringing compassion to ourselves in the midst of shame. | 在羞耻中 坦率地给我们带来了同情 |
| 139 | But most of us actually | 但我们大部分人其实 |
| 140 | don't know it. | 不识. |
| 141 | We are shame blind. | 我们是无耻的盲目。 |
| 142 | And if we can't see shame, we're less likely to be able to work | 如果我们看不到羞耻, 我们不太可能工作 |
| 143 | with it. | 用这个 |
| 144 | One of the parts of that experience that can be so difficult to people, | 那种经历对人们来说可能很困难, |
| 145 | like a phrase you use in the book is wiping out the observer. | 就像你在书里用的一个短语 正在抹去观察者。 |
| 146 | There's this sense internally of | 内心有一种感觉 |
| 147 | kind of vanishing or, you know, going small or dissociative process, something like that, | 那种消失,或者,你知道, 进行小或分离的过程, 类似的东西, |
| 148 | in part because this is such a painful emotional experience. | 部分原因是 这是一种痛苦的情感经历 |
| 149 | So it can be difficult to be in | 所以很难进去 |
| 150 | relationship with it. | 和它的关系。 |
| 151 | Like you're saying, yours had to go down a little bit before you were able | 就像你说的,你的 不得不在你能做到之前 下降一点 |
| 152 | to even see it as a piece of the puzzle because it can be just so overwhelming for people. | 甚至把它看成谜题的一块 因为它对人们来说太过分了 |
| 153 | And that dissociative process is not something that I was thinking about before, you know, | 而这个分离的过程 不是我以前想的,你知道, |
| 154 | reading the book and certainly before having the previous conversation with you that we did. | 读这本书,当然,之前 与你之前的谈话,我们做了。 |
| 155 | Because I just don't, I don't conceptualize shame that way, I guess, but it is such a big part of | 因为我只是不知道,我不 概念羞耻的方式,我想,但这是一个很大的一部分 |
| 156 | it. | 这个 |
| 157 | And I think it's one of the things that makes it so difficult for people. | 并且我觉得这是一件让人如此困难的事情. |
| 158 | Yeah. | 对 |
| 159 | So shame, | 真丢人 |
| 160 | it hides in other emotions as we were talking about before, but it also makes us disappear, | 它隐藏在其它情感中 正如我们之前谈论, 但也使我们消失, |
| 161 | as you just said. | 就像你刚才说的 |
| 162 | And so those two factors make us lose proximity to shame, make us | 所以这两个因素 使我们失去 接近羞耻,让我们 |
| 163 | mean that we just can't see it and can't work with it. | 意思是,我们只是看不见它,不能工作。 |
| 164 | You know, one thing we know is that when | 你知道,有一件事 我们知道,当 |
| 165 | somebody has a truly dissociative episode where they lose track of time and so forth, often shame | 某人有一个真正分离的插曲 他们失去了时间的轨迹等等, 常常羞愧 |
| 166 | precedes the dissociative episode. | 离诸相集前. |
| 167 | So shame is very closely associated with dissociation, | 因此,羞耻与分离密切相关, |
| 168 | but we dissociate in little ways throughout our lives. | 但是我们一生中很少分离 |
| 169 | It's called spacing out. | 这叫间隔 |
| 170 | You know, | 你知道吗, |
| 171 | how often do we just kind of space out? | 多久我们只是 那种空间出? |
| 172 | Like the research shows maybe 50% of our lives. | 研究显示我们生命的50% |
| 173 | Yeah, a lot. | 对,很多 |
| 174 | But I think we uniquely space out when we start to feel shame. | 但我觉得当我们感到羞愧时,我们有独特的空间。 |
| 175 | It's like, | 这就像, |
| 176 | no, I don't need to go there. | 不,我不需要去那里。 |
| 177 | Oh, isn't that a pretty bird on the tree or something? | 树上不是一只漂亮的鸟吗? |
| 178 | You know, | 你知道吗, |
| 179 | in other words, we don't, we basically lose connection with what's going on inside of us. | 换句话说,我们没有,我们基本上与我们内部发生的事情失去了联系. |
| 180 | That comes with a price because ultimately shame is just a human emotion. | 这有代价 因为羞耻最终只是人类的情感 |
| 181 | You know, | 你知道吗, |
| 182 | it comes and goes. | 它来来去去。 |
| 183 | 但自兹以来, ,sis,sis,sis,sis. |
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