《经济学人》深度专访爱丽丝·魏德尔：德国选择党若执政将如何改

《经济学人》深度专访爱丽丝·魏德尔：德国选择党若执政将如何改写欧洲？

发布于 2026-10-22 · 时长 59:33

字幕摘录

时间	英文	中文
0:00	Alice Weidel, thank you for joining me on The Insider.	爱丽丝·魏德尔谢谢你加入我"内线"
0:02	Thank you for having me.	谢谢你邀请我
0:03	So the party you co-lead, the Alternative for Germany, is riding high.	所以你们共同领导的党,德国的另类党, 正在骑高。
0:08	You came top in two recent state elections, Sachsen-Anhalt and Mecklenburg-Vorpommern.	最近两次州选举你都登顶了萨克森-安哈尔特州和梅克伦堡-沃波默恩州
0:14	You're the biggest opposition group in the Bundestag and you come consistently,	你是联邦议院最大的反对团体你总是来
0:19	absolutely at the top of the polls nationally.	绝对是全国最高的投票。
0:22	And I think your success, your rise is reflecting a deep frustration amongst	我认为你的成功,你的崛起反映了一个深深的挫折
0:27	many Germans with the status quo.	许多德国人处于现状。
0:29	And you're very good at articulating that frustration.	你非常擅长表达这种挫折感。
0:32	But I think people have less idea of exactly what the AFD would and would not do.	但我认为人们不太了解亚足联会做什么也不会做什么

展开字幕全文（913 条）

序号	英文	中文
1	Alice Weidel, thank you for joining me on The Insider.	爱丽丝·魏德尔谢谢你加入我"内线"
2	Thank you for having me.	谢谢你邀请我
3	So the party you co-lead, the Alternative for Germany, is riding high.	所以你们共同领导的党,德国的另类党, 正在骑高。
4	You came top in two recent state elections, Sachsen-Anhalt and Mecklenburg-Vorpommern.	最近两次州选举你都登顶了萨克森-安哈尔特州和梅克伦堡-沃波默恩州
5	You're the biggest opposition group in the Bundestag and you come consistently,	你是联邦议院最大的反对团体你总是来
6	absolutely at the top of the polls nationally.	绝对是全国最高的投票。
7	And I think your success, your rise is reflecting a deep frustration amongst	我认为你的成功,你的崛起反映了一个深深的挫折
8	many Germans with the status quo.	许多德国人处于现状。
9	And you're very good at articulating that frustration.	你非常擅长表达这种挫折感。
10	But I think people have less idea of exactly what the AFD would and would not do.	但我认为人们不太了解亚足联会做什么也不会做什么
11	And that's what I wanted to focus this conversation on today, to help me and to	这就是我今天想把谈话的焦点放在帮助我,帮助我
12	help our viewers understand what kind of a Germany you would like to create.	帮助我们的观众理解你想要创建什么样的德国.
13	So I wanted to start with the economy.	所以我想从经济开始。
14	You are an economist.	你是经济学家
15	If you were to, let's imagine the German economy as a car.	如果你愿意,让我们想象一下德国的经济就像一辆汽车。
16	Is it in need of a few repairs or is it, does it need a whole new economic model?	是需要几处修理,还是需要全新的经济模式?
17	How big is the challenge for the German economy?	德国经济面临的挑战有多大?
18	Actually, to be in your picture, you need to restructure and rebuild the entire car	其实,在你的图片中,你需要重组和重建整个车
19	because the car parts are also broken.	因为汽车零件也坏了
20	And I am going to explain to you why that is the case in Germany.	我要向你们解释为什么德国是这样。
21	I think Germany, just looking at the data, at the economic data, is in a deep crisis.	我认为德国,仅仅看一下数据,看经济数据,就陷入了深刻的危机。
22	And this crisis is multifaceted.	这场危机是多方面的。
23	Firstly, one major cause is the destroying of our energy infrastructure by the so-called	第一,一个主要原因就是所谓的能源基础设施被破坏。
24	so energy vendor is the energy transition policy that was self-inflicted and introduced	因此,能源销售商是能源过渡政策是自毁和引入的
25	firstly by the Merkel government and then has been continued by the following governments	首先由默克尔政府负责,然后由下列政府继续
26	until now.	直到现在
27	And these energy policies comprise the destruction of our infrastructure,	这些能源政策包括摧毁我们的基础设施,
28	just like destroying our nuclear power plants.	就像摧毁我们的核电站
29	You have to imagine Germany in the past had 19 power plants, power plants, most modern	你必须想象德国过去有19个发电厂, 电厂,最现代化的
30	ones.	这些
31	So they were just switched off and some got some explosive.	所以他们被关机了一些人被引爆了
32	So that they that they are basically destroyed.	以便他们被毁灭。
33	Right.	对
34	And now Germany has zero nuclear power plants.	而现在德国拥有零核电站.
35	So I think Germany has the stupidest and most dumbest or dumbest energy policy worldwide.	因此,我认为德国拥有全世界最笨,最笨,最笨的能源政策.
36	And it continues.	它继续。
37	We have the energy transition basing our energy supply solely on wind power	我们的能源转换完全依靠风力
38	and solar power.	还有太阳能
39	So when the wind doesn't blow and the sun doesn't shine, we have the	所以,当风不吹,太阳不发光, 我们有
40	所谓的Dunkelflaute。
41	I don't know the English word.	不识英字.
42	So it is like when you have no power supply, basically, then we are dependent on our neighbors	所以,这就像当你没有电源, 基本上,那么我们依赖我们的邻居。
43	importing energy for actually like for tremendously high prices and all of this leading to the	进口能源,实际上就像非常高的价格所有这一切导致
44	situation in which the energy cost for our companies, for the German companies and also	我们公司、德国公司和
45	for the Germans are too high.	因为德国人太高了
46	They're the highest in the world.	他们是世界上最高的。
47	So therefore we are not competitive in the anymore in the world market.	因此,我们不再在世界市场上竞争。
48	And we face right	我们面对正确的
49	now skyrocketing bankruptcy rates by German companies.	现在德国公司破产率飙升
50	Either they go bankrupt or they	要么破产要么破产
51	rot.	腐烂。
52	And this is and this is basically the situation here.	这就是这里的情况。
53	And I haven't mentioned yet the high bureaucracy burden by the companies.	我还没提到公司沉重的官僚负担。
54	And so it's interesting that you mentioned both of those, I think you have some very	所以有趣的是,你提到了这两个, 我想你有一些非常
55	good points.	说得好
56	Germany does have incredibly high energy costs.	德国的能源成本非常高。
57	I think with hindsight, many people in the government might agree that shutting down	我觉得事后看来政府很多人可能同意关闭
58	the nuclear reactors did not make sense.	核反应堆没有意义。
59	And you are also and your manifesto last year	你也是,你去年的宣言
60	made very clear you want to cut red tape, both pro-growth sensible policies.	很明显,你想要削减繁文缛节, 两种有利于增长的明智政策。
61	But your manifesto last year also said that Germany should leave the euro.	但你去年的宣言也说德国应该离开欧元.
62	And this is	这是
63	a policy that really has me scratching my head because most economists would agree that	因为大多数经济学家会同意
64	for Germany, allowed to leave the euro would be catastrophic for its growth.	对于德国来说,允许离开欧元对于其增长是灾难性的。
65	Now in the last few days, there have been some reports that your party may be rethinking	最近几天,有报道说你的党可能会重新思考
66	its policy towards the euro.	它对欧元的政策。
67	So I wonder if you could just state quite clearly,	所以我想请你说清楚一点
68	should Germany leave the euro?	德国应该离开欧元吗?
69	Thank you very much for the question	谢谢你的问候
70	and giving me the opportunity to clarify something.	让我有机会澄清一些事情
71	There is this myth in the also stemming from the	这个神话也源于
72	framing of our party that we want to leave the EU and that we want to leave the euro.	我们想离开欧盟想离开欧元
73	It's wrong.	这是错误的。
74	Our program states that we would like to reform firstly the European Union.	我们的方案指出,我们希望首先改革欧洲联盟。
75	We think that the European Union should be a community of sovereign states	我们认为欧洲联盟应该是一个主权国家共同体。
76	with a free trade area.	与自由贸易区。
77	This is where we came from.	这是我们从哪里来的。
78	What we don't want is a EU European Union	我们不想要的是欧盟
79	bureaucratic commission with a lot of bureaucrats, like a Soviet Union like something	官僚委员会有很多官僚, 像苏联一样
80	that interferes into your privacy, into companies telling them what to produce, having	影响你的隐私影响公司告诉他们生产什么
81	notches, I would say like laws, bureaucracy, and also telling the consumers what to buy	诺切斯,我会说像法律,官僚, 也告诉消费者买什么
82	or what to install.	或安装什么。
83	We think that this is very harmful to a free economy and to a free market	我们认为这对自由经济和自由市场非常有害
84	system.	系统。
85	We also see a democratic deficit like the check and balances.	我们还看到象制衡这样的民主赤字。
86	So we know all from the	我们都知道
87	philosophies that we need to have a system of checks and balances on one hand horizontally,	哲学,我们需要有一个制衡制度一方面横向,
88	but also vertically.	也是纵向的
89	Decisions should be made by the lowest level of decision making,	应由最低决策层作出决定,
90	because there you can have control, you can make things better, because you have the knowledge of	因为在那里你可以控制, 你可以使事情更好, 因为你知道
91	but not a planned economy like commission that is not elected and the people have no idea	但不是像委员会这样的计划经济没有选举产生,人民不知道
92	how free market systems work.	自由市场制度如何运作。
93	Is your goal to reform the European Union, to reform the commission, to reform the whole	你的目标是改革欧盟改革委员会改革整个欧盟
94	structure from within, or is your goal to threaten to leave or to leave?	或者你的目的是威胁离开还是离开?
95	Well, I think Cameron did it once.	我想卡梅伦做过一次
96	He said, look, we need to have these reforms, like one, two,	他说,你看,我们需要这些改革, 像一,二,
97	three, otherwise we're going to leave the country.	三,否则我们就出国.
98	So then you got the Brexit decision in Great	所以,你得到了Brexit的决定在大
99	Britain.	英国
100	Not so clear that was such a great thing for us.	不太清楚这对我们来说是件好事
101	Well, this is open for this discussion.	好吧,这是开放的讨论。
102	I think Great Britain has different problems now, but let's stay at Germany because we are	我认为英国现在有不同的问题, 但我们留在德国,因为我们是
103	in the European Union and we are the main financier of the European Union.	我们是欧洲联盟的主要资助者。
104	We think	我们觉得
105	we need to build back the European Union and have the competencies in the sovereign nation states	我们需要重建欧洲联盟,并在主权国家拥有管辖权
106	while having a free trade area.	同时拥有一个自由贸易区。
107	Therefore, this would guarantee actually the welfare	因此,这将保障实际福利
108	of all nation states, which we had in the past.	我们曾经有过的所有国家
109	We think the development we had also after the	我们认为我们的发展之后,我们也有
110	introduction of the euro has been quite harmful for the European Union because through the or by	采用欧元对欧洲联盟来说是相当有害的,因为通过欧元或因欧元而采用欧元。
111	means of introducing the euro.	采用欧元的手段。
112	And for instance, the German people were promised that Germany would	例如,德国人民承诺德国将
113	never take the debt of other countries.	从不承担其他国家的债务。
114	That was a promise to the Germans.	这是对德国人的承诺
115	The Germans were never	德国人从来没有
116	asked of introducing the euro.	要求引入欧元。
117	I want to get to the bottom line of this, which is we are where we	我想说到底,这就是我们
118	are given where we are now.	被赋予我们现在的位置。
119	Should Germany leave or should it not the euro?	德国应该离开还是不应该离开欧元?
120	We believe that the	我们认为,
121	euro, the euro area is not or the euro is not a stable currency, unfortunately, because a lot	欧元欧元区不是或者欧元不是稳定货币不幸的是因为很多
122	of mistakes have been made due to the fact that the nation states are not a so-called optimal	由于民族国家不是所谓的最佳国家
123	currency area.	货币区域。
124	And the policymaker should have known that right from the beginning.	决策者应该从一开始就知道这一点。
125	Wait, wait, it is very important because we have a highly inflated currency.	等等这很重要因为我们的货币非常膨胀
126	We are, we are,	我们是,我们是,
127	are coming from a German Deutsche Mark Welt world.	来自德国马克韦尔特世界
128	We, we always had a relatively stable currency	我们,我们一直有一个相对稳定的货币
129	and for the German economy, it is quite something like the introduction of the euro.	而对于德国经济来说,这相当像是欧元的引入。
130	We need to go	我们得走了
131	back to a stable currency.	回到稳定的货币。
132	And this is what we propose that we need to stick these institutions	这就是我们建议我们需要坚持这些机构
133	that have been implemented above the national currencies.	国家货币之上的货币。
134	They have to stick to the rules.	他们必须遵守规则。
135	It should be a rules-based what they do and shouldn't inflate the balance sheet.	这应该是一个基于规则的他们做什么, 不应该增加资产负债表。
136	与Marine Le Pen进行访谈,
137	of course and so forth and so cheap for France.	当然了,对法国来说太便宜了
138	You have, she is likely, she is leading in the polls	你有,她很可能, 她在投票中领先
139	too.	也一样。
140	She may well become president of France.	她很可能成为法国总统。
141	What is a Europe going to look like if you're	一个欧洲会是什么样子如果你是
142	{\fn黑体\fs22\bord1\shad0\3aHBE\4aH00\fscx67\fscy66\2cHFFFFFF\3cH808080}而Marine Le Pen 却在领导她的观点?
143	Well, the explanation	嗯,解释
144	is very simple.	很简单
145	Germany is the main financier of the EU and France receives the money as well as	德国是欧盟的主要金融家,法国也收到这笔钱。
146	other countries.	其他国家。
147	Of course, she wants to, from her perspective, I would do the same thing.	当然,她想,从她的角度, 我也会这样做。
148	
149	wants to do the best thing for a country.	想要为国家做最好的事
150	She wants to have free debt financing, even though	她想免费借债,尽管
151	France is already in a huge debt crisis, like with skyrocketing interest rates.	法国已经陷入巨大的债务危机,如利率暴涨。
152	I don't know	我不知道,你觉得呢?
153	what they're going to do at the capital markets, right?	他们将在资本市场做什么,对不对?
154	But Germany already is in the same situation,	但德国已经处于同样的情况
155	almost in the same situation.	几乎处于同样的情况。
156	Our state debt is skyrocketing.	我国国债暴涨.
157	You described very, very clearly	你描述得非常,非常清楚
158	the different perspectives that you and Marine Le Pen have.	你和海军陆战队的视角不同
159	Isn't there a risk that as financial	是不是有风险作为金融
160	markets digest what you're saying and what she's saying, that Europe really does have a bond market	市场会消化你说的和她说的欧洲确实有债券市场
161	crisis?	危机?
162	Oh, certainly, certainly we're going to have a bond market crisis.	哦,当然,当然,我们将有债券市场危机。
163	So with such a high	这么高
164	state debt, and it's not only France, it's also Italy, Spain, Portugal, and it's also Germany.	国家债务,不仅法国,还有意大利,西班牙,葡萄牙,还有德国.
165	So with these new debt programs of Germany, we already have rising interest rates at the	因此,随着德国的这些新的债务方案, 我们已经有利率上升
166	capital market.	资本市场。
167	And we are also a indebted country.	我们也是一个负债国。
168	And with this high debt over the	加上高额债务
169	80, we climb up to 82 billion.	80,我们攀升到820亿。
170	So I'm a number person.	所以我是一个数字人物。
171	So sorry for bothering you with all these	抱歉打扰你这些
172	stuff.	东西。
173	I'm a number person.	我是数字人物.
174	Yes, that's very good.	是的,这是非常好的。
175	We pay the, Germany pays right now,	我们支付,德国支付现在,
176	interest rates at the capital market, roughly 40 billion, 40 billion.	资本市场利率约为400亿,400亿。
177	We climb up the interest	我们升起利息
178	bill.	比尔。
179	Yes.	对
180	The interest rates are of course amongst the lowest in Europe, your interest rate.	利率当然是欧洲最低的,你的利率。
181	Yes,	对
182	but with the risk prime that will certainly come, we have an exploding interest rate burden,	但随着风险的到来, 我们有一个爆炸性的利率负担,
183	which we have to handle from today, 40 billion up to in three years time, up to over 80 billion.	从今天起,我们必须处理400亿到三年之内,超过800亿。
184	And this is a number, this is not bearable anymore.	这是一个数字,这已经无法忍受了。
185	And this has been self-inflicted	这都是自残的
186	by stupid policies, like throwing out the taxpayers' money, like for ridiculous projects,	通过愚蠢的政策, 像扔出纳税人的钱, 像为荒谬的项目,
187	like the climate transition.	像气候过渡。
188	And I could sum up so many things right now, but Germany,	我现在可以总结很多事情但是德国
189	and this is my point, is also in a deep financial crisis.	这也是我的观点,也是在一场深刻的金融危机中。
190	And we need to go back	и璶
191	to financial resilience and seriousness, stability.	对财政复原力和严肃性、稳定性的影响。
192	You make that point very	你说得非常清楚
193	powerfully.	很强壮
194	But when I look at your manifesto of last year, you proposed increased pension spending	但是当我看你去年的宣言你提议增加养老金开支
195	and you proposed a considerable number of tax cuts, both of which would add to the deficit.	你提议减税两者都会增加赤字
196	So when I, and I read your program carefully, it really didn't seem to me like a particularly	所以当我仔细读了你的节目时在我看来这并不像一个特别的
197	fiscally frugal program.	财政节俭计划.
198	Well, the numbers add up if you set careful priorities.	好吧,数字加起来如果你设置了谨慎的优先。
199	So for instance,	比如说,
200	we have Bürgergeldempfänger, like social money, so yeah, the payments for social welfare.	我们有Bürgergeldempfänger, 像社会金钱, 所以是的,社会福利的支付。
201	Yes,	对
202	social welfare, mainly for foreigners, adding up to 50 billion.	主要针对外国人的社会福利总额达到500亿。
203	And then we have development aid,	然后我们得到了发展援助,
204	like in billions.	像数十亿。
205	And then we have the cost for climate, so-called climate and energy transition.	然后,我们有气候的成本, 所谓的气候和能源过渡。
206	This is really important because cutting the transition costs for the energy.	这很重要,因为削减能源的过渡成本。
207	So this implies	所以这意味着
208	cutting subsidies.	削减补贴。
209	There are also billions of subsidies of an energy transition plan	能源过渡计划也有数十亿的补贴
210	that doesn't work for an industrial country such as Germany.	这对德国这样的工业国家是行不通的。
211	And mentioning the pension plan,	并提到养老金计划,
212	for us, a proper pension system should be vested in three pillars.	对我们来说,适当的养恤金制度应建立在三大支柱之上。
213	Like one is	就像一个
214	the redistribution scheme.	重新分配计划。
215	And then the second pillar is the company's pension plan.	然后第二支柱是公司的退休金计划.
216	And then the third pillar is the private pension plans by every individual.	第三个支柱是每个人的私人养老金计划。
217	And we calculated it	我们计算过
218	through because right now, the second and the third pillar, they're not sustainable.	因为现在第二支柱和第三支柱都无法持续
219	And also,	还有,
220	the first pillar, we should add individual accounts like of capital financed devices,	第一支柱,我们应该增加个人账户像资本融资装置,
221	which is not existent right now.	现在不存在
222	And if you diversify the pension system like this,	如果你这样分散养老金制度
223	like our reform agenda, you can reach complete different numbers of pension,	和我们的改革议程一样,你可以得到完全不同的养老金数量,
224	what is it, replacement rate.	是什么,替换率。
225	So just to be clear, you would not spend more public money on pensions.	所以说得很清楚,你不会把更多的公共资金花在养老金上。
226	What do you mean?	你说什么?
227	State money.	国钱.
228	The state pension would not become more costly under the AFD.	根据《联邦民主法》,国家养恤金的费用不会增加。
229	No, absolutely not.	不,绝对没有。
230	Because we would lift, especially for the second and for the third	因为我们会升降,特别是第二次和第三次
231	pillar, for the private pension scheme, we would lift the taxes.	支柱,对于私人养老金计划,我们将取消税收。
232	So it's tax free.	故免税.
233	So it's tax	所以这是税
234	deductible.	可扣除。
235	That adds to the deficit, right?	这增加了赤字,对不对?
236	That makes it more costly.	这使得费用更高。
237	I'm trying to work out the	我试图解决
238	highest taxes.	最高的税收。
239	We have the highest taxes and social security expenditures.	我们的税收和社会保障开支最高。
240	And this is all	就这样
241	on the disadvantage of the individual worker.	工人个人的不利条件。
242	So therefore, we need to lower the taxes.	因此,我们需要降低税收。
243	But also,	临Τ
244	on the other hand, we need to cut these huge expenditures by our state.	另一方面,我们需要削减这些巨大的开支我们的国家。
245	And also, I would	而且,我会
246	like to talk about the huge cost of a illegal, out of control, mass migration.	喜欢谈论一个非法的,失控的,大规模迁徙的巨大代价.
247	Our country will	我们的国家会
248	still have open borders.	边界仍然开放。
249	And this is very costly, and not having mentioned the disturbances for our	这非常昂贵,没有提及我们的骚乱
250	public order.	社会治安。
251	You're watching an interview from The Economist.	你在看《经济学家》的采访
252	If you want to watch our other	如果你想看我们另一个
253	访问,包括与Mark Carney和Dario Amadei的访谈,点击《经济学家》订阅
254	the link above.	上面的链接。
255	Now, back to the interview.	现在,回到采访。
256	I think people have trouble when they look at	我觉得人们在看时有麻烦
257	your plans, working out how the numbers add up.	你的计划, 研究如何数字加起来。
258	And I think that will be something.	我想那将会是一件大事。
259	And you've	而你已经
260	explained the logic.	解释了逻辑
261	But it is hard to see how lower taxes, higher pension spending equals	但很难看出低税,高养老金支出相当于
262	a smaller debt and deficit.	债务和赤字减少。
263	But let's leave that.	但是,让我们离开这一点。
264	And let's just talk about defense.	我们来谈谈防御
265	Because one of	因为其中之一
266	the reasons we have, and I love the phrase you use, you say Chancellor Mertz has an orgy of debt.	我们有的原因, 我喜欢你使用的短语, 你说默兹总理有狂欢的债务。
267	But one of the reasons Germany's debt break was lifted was to enable a big increase in defense	但德国解除债务的原因之一就是让国防大增
268	spending, which the country has just started.	国家刚刚开始的开支。
269	Do you support that increase?	你支持增加吗?
270	And specifically,	具体来说,
271	do you support Germany reaching the target, the NATO target of three and a half percent of GDP on	你是否支持德国达到目标,北约将国内生产总值的3%半用于
272	hard defense by 2029, which is what the Mertz government has said it will do?	2029年前的硬防守默兹政府说过会怎么做?
273	Well, Germany	德国
274	hasn't spent even two percentage to the NATO budget in the past.	过去北约的预算连两个百分点都没有用过
275	So we have been lacking quite	所以我们一直缺乏
276	behind, I think at one percent or something, one point two.	后面,我认为在1%左右, 一点二。
277	So therefore, we need to spend more.	因此,我们需要花更多的钱。
278	But I think military spending and defense spending, as the word says,	但我认为军费开支和国防开支,正如这个词所说,
279	it should be vested in our own defense capacities.	它应该被赋予我们自己的防御能力。
280	And now I'm coming to this topic	现在我来谈这个话题
281	that Germany is in the position right now to be the main financier and also giving away our	德国现在处于成为主要金融家的地位, 同时也把我们的
282	munition and everything to the Ukraine.	弹药和一切给乌克兰。
283	So we are the main financier of the Ukraine right now.	我们现在是乌克兰的主要金融家。
284	The other European states are pulling back.	其他欧洲国家正在撤退.
285	Trump is out already.	特朗普已经出来了
286	So therefore,	因此,
287	our government, in our point of view, forces a policy which is not only harmful for Germany,	我们的政府,我们认为, 强制政策不仅有害德国,
288	because it touches our national security interest, but also the other European nation states.	因为它触及我们的国家安全利益, 也涉及其他欧洲国家。
289	We think, and this is our opinion, that this policy being undertaken by the German government	我们认为,这是我们的看法,德国政府正在执行这项政策。
290	right now is very harmful for the national security of Germany and also for the other	现在对德国的国家安全和对对方都非常有害
291	European states, therefore proposing that we need to go immediately, that we need to enforce	因此,欧洲国家建议我们必须立即执行
292	peace talks to end this terrible war in the Ukraine.	为了结束乌克兰这场可怕的战争而进行的和平会谈。
293	I think everyone would like the war	我想大家都会喜欢战争
294	in Ukraine to end.	在乌克兰结束。
295	Let's unpack what you're saying here.	我们来收拾一下你说的
296	Oh, not our government, actually.	其实不是我们的政府
297	Well, let's unpack this.	好吧,让我们打开这个。
298	One of the main reasons for the increase in NATO spending and for Germany	北约和德国支出增加的主要原因之一
299	is that many countries in Europe and many people in this country see Russia as a threat.	欧洲许多国家和这个国家的许多人认为俄罗斯是一个威胁。
300	Do you see	看到了吗?
301	to European countries, to NATO members?	给欧洲国家,给北约成员?
302	I think it's not a question about threat or not being	我认为这不是一个问题关于威胁与否
303	a threat.	一个威胁。
304	I think German foreign or Germany's foreign policy should be evaluated by the	我认为德国的对外政策或德国的外交政策应该由德国政府来评估。
305	criterion if it serves our national interest or not.	如果它符合我们的国家利益或不符合我们的国家利益。
306	And being or acting like this is our government	做这样的政府
307	currently.	现在。
308	It leads to a situation that is very harmful for us.	它导致一种对我们非常有害的局势。
309	I haven't mentioned the sanctions.	我没有提到制裁。
310	Well, while we impose one sanction package after the other, Donald Trump talks with	唐纳德·特朗普和
311	Vladimir Putin about the delivery of further diesel and also about	弗拉基米尔·普京关于进一步交付柴油以及
312	oil and gas.	石油与天然气.
313	Well, we would like to have the same thing for Germany because we need to lower our	嗯,我们想有同样的东西对于德国,因为我们需要降低我们的
314	energy cost.	能源成本。
315	Therefore, we are very pragmatic.	因此,我们非常务实。
316	We would like to have a peace that also serves	我们希望和平也有利于
317	the interests of the Ukrainians and also the security interests of Russia.	乌克兰人的利益以及俄罗斯的安全利益。
318	But it is,	但是,这是,
319	this is our stance, it is not our war.	这是我们的立场, 这不是我们的战争。
320	And it's very dangerous and it's very costly,	非常危险,而且代价很高
321	especially for us.	特别是对我们来说
322	Germany has spent, you have to imagine this number, Germany has been spent	德国已经花费了,你必须想象这个数字,德国已经花费
323	over 100 billion of euros for the war in Ukraine.	超过1000亿欧元用于乌克兰战争.
324	And this is quite dangerous and also in dangerous	这很危险,也很危险
325	Germany as a state because right now we could be already a target.	德国是一个国家,因为现在我们可能已经成为目标。
326	Well, there was a foiled, luckily, attack on Leipzig airport from the Russians.	嗯,有一个失败,幸运的是, 从俄罗斯人进攻莱比锡机场。
327	Well, to be honest, I'm not, so I'm not an eyewitness of that and I'm not an advocate	老实说,我不是,所以我不是目击证人也不是律师
328	for pro-Ukrainian or pro-Russian policy.	支持乌克兰或支持俄罗斯的政策。
329	For me, it is relevant what evidences do we have.	对我来说,我们掌握的证据是相关的。
330	Well, let's see what we do.	好吧,让我们看看我们做什么。
331	No, no, because now it is very important, like with this so-called drone or attempted drone	不,不,因为现在它是非常重要的, 像这个所谓的无人机或试图无人机
332	attack.	攻击。
333	Well, we haven't seen any evidence in the parliament.	我们议会还没有看到任何证据
334	It was just said.	刚才有人说
335	But what we have	但我们所拥有的
336	in the sea is we have destroyed Nord Stream pipelines.	我们摧毁了北流的输油管
337	And that was a state terror attack	那是国家恐怖袭击
338	on the German infrastructure being very harmful for Germany, for us, like destroying like,	德国的基础设施对德国非常有害对我们来说就像摧毁一样
339	like an energy infrastructure being, being like worse, like, I don't know, like over like almost	就像能源基础设施一样, 更糟, 像,我不知道,像结束像几乎
340	30 billion euros and like cutting off the entire Europe, cutting off Europe and especially Germany	300亿欧元,就像切断整个欧洲,切断欧洲,特别是德国
341	from Russian gas and gas, especially.	特别是俄罗斯的天然气和煤气
342	And I think like we need to, we need to follow the facts.	我认为,我们必须遵循事实。
343	And we see that the, that the facts, like with the terror attacks on	我们看到,事实,就像恐怖袭击
344	Nord Stream, they are ignored by our politicians.	Nord Stream, 他们被我们的政客忽略了。
345	And please, please.	请,请。
346	And the other one, there is	而另一个,有
347	evidence missing.	缺少证据。
348	So we ask for evidence and there's no evidence.	故求证而无证.
349	Can we just step back?	我们能退一步吗?
350	I agree with you the importance of following the facts.	我同意跟踪事实的重要性。
351	And the	还有
352	facts are that in February 2022, Russia attacked Ukraine.	事实上,2022年2月,俄罗斯袭击了乌克兰。
353	And Russia has since then been attacking	从那时起俄国就开始进攻
354	Ukraine.	乌克兰。
355	And you say that you want a peace that is good for Ukraine.	你说你想有一个对乌克兰有利的和平。
356	I think many people want a	我想很多人想要一个
357	peace that is good for Ukraine.	和平对乌克兰有利。
358	Ukraine is under constant bombardment.	乌克兰不断遭到轰炸。
359	I was in Kiev just a few	我当时在基辅
360	weeks ago.	几个星期前
361	I was there for a week in Ukraine.	我在乌克兰呆了一个星期
362	I have witnessed it myself, the constant bombardment	我亲眼目睹了不断的轰炸
363	from Russian drones, from Russian ballistic missiles.	俄罗斯无人机,俄罗斯弹道导弹
364	Ukraine is trying to defend itself	乌克兰试图自卫
365	against an aggressor.	对抗侵略者
366	Do you not think it is appropriate for Germany and for other West	难道你认为这对德国和其他西方国家不合适吗?
367	European countries to support a country that is a democratic country trying to defend itself against	欧洲国家支持一个民主国家试图自卫的国家
368	this outright aggression?	这种公然的侵略?
369	Well, it's as democratic as it is.	嗯,这是民主的。
370	They have no elections anymore of a new	他们不再有新选举
371	president.	总统
372	That's a reason why the American president, he claims new elections for the	这就是为什么美国总统,他声称新的选举
373	president, because he thinks that Zelensky is not the right person at the right time.	总统,因为他认为泽连斯基在适当的时候不是合适的人.
374	And so like the framing...	所以像画框...
375	They don't have elections right now because it's in a war and	他们现在没有选举因为它是在战争和
376	we talk about an aggressor and someone not being an aggressor.	我们谈论的是侵略者和不是侵略者的人。
377	We also criticized the	我们也批评
378	Russian attack on Ukraine because Ukraine is a sovereign country, full stop.	俄罗斯进攻乌克兰是因为乌克兰是一个主权国家,完全停止.
379	There's no discussion	没有商量
380	about it.	关于它。
381	But now, as you said before, we are in the status quo right now.	但现在,正如你之前所说,我们现在处于现状。
382	And the status quo	还有现状
383	is terrible not only for the people dying and for the families losing their sons	不仅对垂死的人们和失去儿子的家庭来说都是可怕的
384	and the damaging of infrastructures, refineries, skyrocketing diesel prices	破坏基础设施、炼油厂、柴油价格暴涨
385	and incredibly high security risk for all countries, especially European countries.	对所有国家,特别是欧洲国家来说,安全风险非常高。
386	So therefore, we need to put this to an end.	因此,我们需要结束这种情况。
387	And this is in our... Because I'm a German politician,	这是我们... 因为我是德国政治家
388	I have to judge every foreign policy of Germany.	我必须评判德国的外交政策
389	Is it in our national interest or is it not?	这是否符合我们的国家利益?
390	The prolongation and the measures being taken by the German governments right now impose a huge	德国政府现在采取的延长和措施造成了巨大的压力
391	risk on our country.	我们国家的风险。
392	And we think, I think it is wrong to continue with the prolongation of a	我们认为,我认为这是错的继续延长
393	financing of a already lost war.	资助已经失去的战争。
394	The Ukraine, unfortunately, you can say, really, like the	不幸的是,乌克兰,你可以说,真的,像
395	Ukraine is too small.	乌克兰太小了。
396	The Ukraine cannot win against Russia.	乌克兰无法战胜俄罗斯。
397	It is impossible.	这是不可能的。
398	So what are	那又怎样?
399	we doing now?	我们现在做?
400	It's an already lost war.	战争已经失败了
401	Yes.	对
402	Does that mean that you would be comfortable	那表示你会很舒服吗?
403	with Ukraine ceasing to exist as an independent country and Russia?	乌克兰不再作为一个独立国家和俄罗斯存在?
404	No, of course not.	不,当然不是。
405	So if Ukraine	所以如果乌克兰
406	should exist as an independent country, it will need support to do that.	它应该作为一个独立国家存在,为此需要得到支持。
407	Do you agree with that?	你同意吗?
408	Well, you cannot come to a peace agreement if you prolong this war.	如果你延长这场战争你就不能达成和平协议
409	But Vladimir Putin has no	但弗拉基米尔·普京没有
410	interest in peace.	对和平的兴趣。
411	The Ukrainians say they would have a ceasefire.	乌克兰人说,他们将实现停火。
412	Can you give me one piece of	你能给我一块吗?
413	evidence that he is interested in peace?	他对和平感兴趣的证据?
414	Can you give me one piece of evidence that Zelensky is	你能给我一份证据证明泽伦斯基是
415	interested in peace?	对和平感兴趣吗?
416	He's constantly offered an energy ceasefire now.	他一直提出能源停火
417	They were in Florida talking	他们在佛罗里达州聊天
418	about peace deals.	谈和谈
419	The Ukrainians are absolutely willing to start talking about peace.	乌克兰人绝对愿意开始谈论和平。
420	It is	没错
421	Vladimir Putin who is not interested in a peace deal because he thinks that he can pulverize	弗拉基米尔·普京对和平协议不感兴趣,因为他认为他能够粉碎
422	Ukrainian cities over the winter, as he is now doing.	乌克兰的城市过冬,正如他现在所做的那样。
423	And it seems to me that what you are	在我看来,你是什么
424	suggesting, and I just want to make sure I've understood this, you are suggesting stopping all	暗示,我只是想确定我理解这一点, 你建议停止所有
425	German financial and military support, all European support.	德国的财政和军事支援,全欧支援.
426	Is that right?	是吗?
427	Is that your preferred	那是你喜欢的
428	policy?	政策?
429	We already spent over a hundred billion.	我们已经花费了一千多亿。
430	No other country has spent that much.	没有其他国家花那么多钱。
431	And we are	我们是
432	highly indebted.	负债累累。
433	Yeah, I have the interests of my country first.	是啊,我首先有我的国家的利益。
434	It's Germany first.	是德国第一.
435	And this war	还有这场战争
436	is not in our interest.	这不符合我们的利益。
437	And it's very, it's very dangerous for our national security.	这对我们的国家安全非常危险
438	And I am repeating myself, if diplomacy sits at the table, there's always history sitting	我重复一遍,如果外交坐到桌上, 历史总是坐着
439	at the table as well.	在桌子上也一样。
440	So we need to view the development, not only on the single event	所以,我们需要看发展,不只是在单一的活动
441	of February 2022.	(原始内容存档于2022年2月2日).
442	And this is not a justification of the attack on the Ukraine.	这不是攻击乌克兰的理由。
443	It is not a	这不是一个
444	justification.	说明理由。
445	What I'm trying to say is that there's history about the encroachment of NATO	我想说的是关于北约的入侵历史
446	to the Russian border.	到俄罗斯边境
447	Russia emphasizes this problem like several times.	俄罗斯多次强调这个问题。
448	So why	所以为什么
449	nobody listened to the Russian concerns when there were like rocket system being put at the	没有人听俄罗斯的担心当有像火箭系统被放置在
450	borders, especially at Romania and then like being able to carry nuclear devices such as the	特别是罗马尼亚,然后喜欢能够携带核装置,例如
451	peace rocket system.	和平火箭系统。
452	I don't know the English word, but what I'm trying to say is that there's	我不知道英文词但我想说的是...
453	a lot of history.	许多历史.
454	And in order to have a peace in the Ukraine, we need to take not only Ukraine	为了在乌克兰实现和平我们不仅需要乌克兰
455	security interests into account, but also Russia security interest into account.	考虑担保权益,但也考虑俄罗斯的担保权益。
456	And this was in	这是在
457	past and this has been the major mistake like the 20 years before to not acknowledging the	过去和20年前的重大错误是不承认
458	security concerns of Russia.	俄罗斯的安全关切。
459	I agree that Ukraine and Russia's security and concerns need to be	我同意乌克兰和俄罗斯的安全和关切必须是:
460	taken into account.	页:1
461	But I would argue that if, as you are suggesting, you cut off military and	但我会说,如果你建议, 你切断军事和
462	financial support to Ukraine, it will be impossible for Ukraine to survive.	对乌克兰的财政支持,乌克兰将不可能生存下去。
463	But more importantly,	但更重要的是,我们...
464	I agree with you that history matters.	我同意你的观点历史很重要
465	But the history and Vladimir Putin is a big student of	但历史和弗拉基米尔·普京是
466	history.	历史
467	And Vladimir Putin has shown no signs of acknowledging Ukraine's right to exist.	而弗拉基米尔·普京没有表现出承认乌克兰存在权利的迹象.
468	And more	还有更多
469	broadly, he would like to recreate the former Soviet Union.	从广义上讲,他希望重现前苏联.
470	And so I think the real threat	所以我认为真正的威胁
471	that you seem to gloss over is that there is a threat beyond Ukraine, a threat to the Baltics,	你似乎被蒙蔽了... ...乌克兰之外还有威胁,对波罗的海的威胁,
472	a threat to countries inside NATO.	对北约内部国家的威胁。
473	Are you absolutely confident that there is no risk of	你绝对相信,没有风险
474	that?	那个?
475	Well, prolonging the war and shooting drones like into the hinterland of Russia,	那么,延长战争和射击无人机像俄罗斯腹地,
476	destroying refineries, destroying also housings and buildings near Moscow, it is a huge provocation.	摧毁炼油厂,摧毁莫斯科附近的住房和建筑物,是一种巨大的挑衅。
477	It's defending itself.	它在自卫
478	Look, look, look, no.	看,看,看,没有。
479	No, it is very, no, it's not.	不,这是非常,不,它不是。
480	Every night,	每个晚上
481	it's risky.	这是危险的。
482	Drones and ballistic missiles drain down on Ukraine.	无人机和弹道导弹向乌克兰倾泻。
483	It is very risky, the strategy.	战略非常危险。
484	And we have been criticising this strategy.	我们一直在批评这一策略。
485	We want to end this war.	我们要结束这场战争
486	And it doesn't help if a	而且如果一个
487	country goes for drone attacks against a country that have nuclear weapons.	国家要发动无人机攻击一个拥有核武器的国家。
488	It doesn't make sense,	这不合理,
489	I'm sorry to say.	对不起
490	And it's very risky and it's very stupid.	而且风险很大,而且非常愚蠢.
491	And I just, I keep repeating myself,	我只是,我一直在重复自己,
492	we need to end this and we need to actually put pressure on the Ukrainian president to have the	我们需要结束这一切我们需要向乌克兰总统施加压力
493	willingness to end the dying and this very risky strategy for entire Europe.	愿意结束死亡和这个非常危险的策略对于整个欧洲。
494	Like the US, for	就像美国一样
495	instance, they have the Atlantic in between.	他们把大西洋隔开
496	It's not so, so it's not in their security interests,	不是这样,所以这不符合他们的安全利益
497	not at all.	一点也不
498	We are affected as Europeans and therefore we should have the major interest to	我们作为欧洲人受到影响,因此,我们应当有重大利益。
499	end this war.	结束这场战争
500	You've made your position very clear.	你已经把立场说得很清楚了
501	I understand it now.	我现在明白了
502	I think as you can tell,	我想如你所说
503	I don't agree with it, but that doesn't matter.	我不同意但这并不重要
504	I completely understand it.	我完全理解这一点。
505	Let me turn to another	让我换个
506	subject that you mentioned briefly earlier, where I think people are trying to understand exactly	你刚才简短提到的主题, 我认为人们正在试图理解
507	what your party stands for.	你的派对代表什么
508	You mentioned what you call mass migration and you increasingly	你提到你所谓的大规模迁移,你越来越
509	use this word remigration.	使用这个词重新迁移。
510	You say you are in favor of remigration.	你说你赞成再移民
511	Can you explain to me	你能给我解释一下吗?
512	exactly what remigration means?	重新移民到底意味着什么?
513	Yes, absolutely.	是的,当然。
514	Remigration for us is the consequent implementation	对我们来说,移民是随之而来的
515	and execution of existing law.	执行现有法律。
516	Therefore, illegal people who crossed our borders illegally	因此,非法越境者
517	having no right to stay in our country, whose asylum seeking has been rejected, people who	无权在我国居留的人,其寻求庇护者被拒绝。
518	commit crime, these people are obliged to leave our country.	这些人必须离开我们的国家
519	We only want this law enforcement,	我们只想要这个执法部门
520	which is already in place, but there is no execution by the existing government.	但现任政府并没有执行死刑。
521	This is our definition of remigration.	这是我们对再移民的定义。
522	Nothing more, nothing less.	没有更多,没有更少。
523	That is	这是
524	along the order of 260,000 people.	沿着26万人的顺序
525	There are people in your party who talk about millions	你党里有人说上百万
526	of people being migrated.	移民人数。
527	Millions of people.	百万众生.
528	Do you disavow that?	你拒绝吗?
529	Because they must include	因为它们必须包括
530	foreign-born naturalized Germans.	外国出生的归化德国人.
531	They must include people who are here.	他们必须包括在这里的人。
532	Can you categorically say,	你能明确地说,
533	because I think there are many people of foreign background who are very frightened by the AFD in	因为我认为有很多有外国背景的人他们非常害怕AFD在
534	this, people who are here legally, whether they are Syrian or Afghani or whatever,	这些人在这里合法, 无论他们是叙利亚人还是阿富汗人,
535	they can stay here and they are welcomed by you?	他们可以呆在这里, 他们受到你的欢迎?
536	Well, to be honest, our law states, our asylum law	老实说,我们的法律,我们的庇护法
537	states that in the case that the reason for coming to our country, especially for the Syrians,	声明,如果来我国的原因,特别是叙利亚人,
538	let's take that example because you mentioned that, that the reason is gone for being here,	举个例子吧因为你提到来这的理由已经不存在了
539	because there are refugees, asylum seekers in each shelter.	因为每个收容所都有难民、寻求庇护者。
540	Here they get tons of money from	他们从这里得到很多钱
541	the state, but it doesn't matter right now.	州,但现在不重要。
542	They have to go back to their country.	他们必须回到自己的国家。
543	They have to	他们必须
544	leave our country.	离开我们的国家。
545	What is our government doing?	我们的政府在做什么?
546	The government's doing nothing.	政府无所作为.
547	To send these	送这些
548	people, Syrians, back to Syria because the Syrian, I think, foreign minister, he already said like,	叙利亚人民,叙利亚人,回到叙利亚,因为叙利亚,我认为,外交部长,已经说过,
549	look, of course we are not taking back our Syrian citizens because there are a strategic asset in	听着,我们当然不会拿回我们的叙利亚公民因为那里有战略资产
550	Germany.	德国。
551	So, and this says everything, right?	所以,这说明一切,对不对?
552	Our chancellor, he just talks and doesn't do anything,	我们的长官,他只是说话,没有做任何事情,
553	no reform, nothing.	没有改革,什么都没有。
554	He said like, oh, we need to send back 80% of the Syrians.	他说,哦,我们需要送回80%的叙利亚人。
555	It's Chancellor	是总理
556	Friedrich Merz.	弗里德里希·默兹.
557	No one has been sent back because the strategic asset has to stay here.	没有人被送回,因为战略资产必须留在这里。
558	Therefore,	因此,
559	the law enforcement is very clear in Germany.	执法在德国非常明确。
560	100% of the Syrians, because the war ended in Syria,	100%的叙利亚人因为战争在叙利亚结束
561	100% of the Syrian citizens have to go back to their country, as well as the Afghans,	100%的叙利亚公民必须返回祖国,以及阿富汗人,
562	which our government decided to actually fly into our country.	我们的政府决定飞入我国
563	I don't know how you would possibly	我不知道你会怎样
564	come to this obnoxious policy to fly in Afghans out of Afghanistan, because our crime rate has	来到这个讨厌的政策在阿富汗飞出阿富汗,因为我们的犯罪率
565	been skyrocketing since 2015, since the border opening.	自2015年以来,边境开放以来猛增。
566	And the main group of the worst crimes	和最坏罪行的主要群体
567	like raping, like killing people, so the main category are Syrians and Afghans.	喜欢强奸,喜欢杀人,所以主要类别是叙利亚人和阿富汗人.
568	So we need to	所以我们需要
569	send these people back and we need to detain criminals and also religious extremist leaders.	把这些人送回去,我们需要拘留罪犯以及宗教极端主义领导人。
570	We don't want a caliphate in our country.	我们国家不想有哈里发
571	And of course, the Syrian president, for instance,	当然,叙利亚总统,例如,
572	he maybe wants to have that.	他也许想拥有它。
573	Otherwise, his foreign minister wouldn't talk about a	否则,他的外交部长不会说
574	foreign asset, like a strategic asset in Germany, like keeping the people here.	外国资产,就像德国的战略资产, 就像把人民留在这里。
575	So therefore, we are having severe problems of integrating these people.	因此,我们在融合这些人方面存在严重问题。
576	And I haven't mentioned	我也没提过
577	the Ukrainians.	乌克兰人。
578	Also, the Ukrainians have to leave our country when this war	还有,这场战争乌克兰人必须离开我们的国家
579	will be ended.	将结束。
580	And this is the sum of millions of people, because it adds up to four to five	这是数百万人的总和,因为它加起来有四到五人
581	million, four roughly, and they have to leave our country.	他们必须离开我们的国家。
582	But our government does the opposite.	但我们的政府却采取相反的做法.
583	They throw away our German passport after five years of staying in our country.	他们把我们的德国护照在我国呆了5年之后扔了
584	You get our	你得到我们的
585	passport automatically.	护照自动。
586	Why?	为什么?
587	You need to, everyone with a migration background, every foreigner	你需要,每个有移民背景的人,每个外国人
588	is welcome in Germany.	欢迎来到德国。
589	We embrace people, professionals who want to work here, who make	我们接纳那些想在这里工作的专业人士,他们
590	their contribution to our welfare system, to our society, being nice, not committing crimes.	他们对我们的福利体系,对我们社会的贡献,是善良的,不是犯罪.
591	Everyone is welcome.	大家欢迎
592	I love it.	我喜欢它。
593	Everyone loves it in my party.	每个人都喜欢我的派对
594	And we would like to	我们愿意
595	send these people back and execute existing law that haven't been done.	把这些人送回去执行还没有完成的现行法律
596	Can I just play two of those back?	我能弹两声吗?
597	You've said that you want to send all Syrians back,	你说你想把所有叙利亚人送回去
598	all Afghans back, all Ukrainians as soon as the war is over, which you've told me you want to	所有阿富汗人回来,所有乌克兰人一旦战争结束, 你已经告诉我,你想
599	very soon.	很快会
600	You've also said everybody who is skilled is welcome here, you just said.	你也说过欢迎所有有技能的人
601	Syrians are the biggest group of foreign-born doctors in Germany.	叙利亚人是德国最大的外国出生的医生群体.
602	There are, I think, 100,000	我想有十万个
603	German doctors over the age of 60.	60岁以上的德国医生.
604	It's about a quarter of the total.	大约占总数的四分之一.
605	They are going to retire	他们要退休了
606	very soon.	很快会
607	You have a huge shortage of doctors coming.	你非常缺乏医生来。
608	You already have one.	你已经有了一个。
609	Are you really	你真的是这样吗?
610	sending them back?	把他们送回去?
611	I use that as a concrete example, but it's true across many aspects	我用这个作为具体的例子,但在许多方面都是如此
612	of Germany because you have a rapidly ageing population and a serious shortage of workers.	德国因为你的人口迅速老化工人严重短缺
613	I think in this discussion, which is very important, we should mix up the asylum system	我认为,在这场非常重要的讨论中,我们应该把庇护制度混为一谈。
614	on one hand, and then people coming to Germany with a working visa, with a qualification,	一方面,然后人们来德国持工作签证, 并获得资格,
615	being a professional, paying taxes.	做一个专业的,交税。
616	These people are welcome.	这些人是欢迎。
617	Therefore, we shouldn't mix it up.	因此,我们不应该把它混为一谈。
618	I talked about people that are still unrightful here because law is not implemented.	我说的是因为法律没有得到执行而仍然不正确的人。
619	I didn't	我没有
620	talk about the professionals, like the professional Syrian, for instance, or other qualified	谈谈专业人员,比如专业的叙利亚人或其他合格的人
621	foreigners.	外国人。
622	I didn't talk about them.	我没有谈论他们。
623	We need them, of course, because we have disadvantages,	当然,我们需要他们,因为我们有缺点
624	like demographics in other countries as well.	就像其他国家的人口统计
625	Therefore, we need to attract professionals,	因此,我们需要吸引专业人员,
626	but we cannot attract professionals if we leave foreign criminals who distort our public order,	但我们不能吸引专业人士如果我们离开外国罪犯谁扭曲我们的公共秩序,
627	who distort our welfare system, leaving our borders open.	他们扭曲了我们的福利制度,使我们的边界敞开。
628	We cannot attract these people	我们不能吸引这些人
629	anymore because they say, look, it's very dangerous being on German streets.	因为他们说,你看, 在德国街头是很危险的。
630	The taxes are very high	税额很高
631	and the bureaucracy is ridiculous.	官僚主义是荒谬的。
632	These professionals we are not able to attract	我们无法吸引这些专业人士
633	anymore.	现在。
634	The people don't want to come to Germany to work.	人民不愿来德国工作.
635	Also, we have a different effect.	而且,我们有不同的效果。
636	Hundreds of thousands of qualified Germans leave our country now.	数十万合格的德国人现在离开了我们的国家。
637	We have a huge brain drain	我们有巨大的人才外流
638	because the reason is always the same.	因为原因总是一样
639	They say, look, the taxes are too high.	他们说,你看, 税收太高。
640	We cannot finance	我们没有资金
641	our family.	我们的家庭。
642	We cannot finance to buy a house.	我们不能买房子
643	We don't know if we are secure	我们不知道我们是否安全
644	in our public transportation system.	我们的公共交通系统。
645	What about the educational system for our children?	我们的孩子的教育制度呢?
646	Are they	难道他们
647	safe?	安全吗?
648	Being safe in school because we have a lot of violence in school.	在学校很安全,因为我们在学校有很多暴力。
649	It's being imposed by,	它被强制,
650	I'm very sorry to say, but we have to talk about it by children of Muslim descent beating up our	我很抱歉,但是我们得谈谈穆斯林血统的孩子殴打我们
651	children in school.	在校儿童。
652	Therefore, the people are very afraid and they say, look, we have to leave our	因此,人民非常害怕,他们说, 听着,我们必须离开我们
653	country because something went into disorder.	国家因为有些事情陷入混乱
654	They would rather work in the US or in Switzerland	他们宁愿在美国或瑞士工作
655	or somewhere else, but not in Germany anymore.	或其他地方,但不再在德国。
656	We need to be attractive again.	我们需要再次吸引人。
657	To make sure I understand, you want those who are here illegally and those who have failed asylum	为了让我明白,你想要那些非法居留的人和那些庇护失败的人
658	applications need to go, but you welcome professional skills.	申请需要去,但你欢迎专业技能。
659	But then your colleagues	不过你的同事
660	in the state of Saxony-Anhalt in their recent manifesto wrote that Germany should not rely on	萨克森-安哈尔特州在其最近的宣言中写道,德国不应依赖
661	culturally alien skilled workers.	文化外的熟练工人。
662	Kulturfremde Fachkräfte.	库尔图尔夫雷姆德法赫克勒夫特.
663	That was a bad idea, they said.	他们说那是个坏主意
664	That phrase, which is really a dog whistle for Muslim doctors, for skilled workers from Muslim	这句是穆斯林医生的狗口哨穆斯林的熟练工人的口哨
665	countries, is one that I think is very, very scary for many people.	这个国家,我认为对许多人来说是非常非常可怕的。
666	It is an extreme phrase.	这是一个极端的短语。
667	Do you disavow that phrase or do you also agree that Germany should not have culturally alien	你是否拒绝这句话或者你也同意德国不应该有文化上的异国
668	skilled workers?	技术工人?
669	Good question.	问得好
670	Thank you very much for asking me.	非常感谢你问我。
671	I would like to clarify the	我想澄清一下:
672	sentence, which is not that scary to me.	句子,这对我来说并不可怕。
673	We have indeed examples that, for instance,	我们确实有实例,例如,
674	in a professional work, women are not accepted.	在专业工作中,妇女不被接受。
675	So we have here in Berlin, wonderful Berlin,	因此,我们在这里的柏林, 美妙的柏林,
676	in the police of Berlin, we had like a couple of years ago the case that policemen	在柏林的警察里我们几年前有过一个案子
677	of Muslim descent, they didn't shake the hands of their female co-workers,	穆斯林血统,他们没有握手女同事,
678	they didn't do practices in the swimming pool, swimming practices, because women were in the	他们没有在游泳池练习, 游泳练习,因为女人在
679	water before.	水之前。水过去。
680	Then we have language difficulties.	那么我们的语言有困难。
681	It is very important that a doctor understands	医生必须明白
682	the patient and also shakes their hands and doesn't think that a woman is inferior to a man.	病人也握手认为女人比男人低级
683	I think this is what my colleagues meant by this and this is common sense.	我认为这就是我的同事的意思,这是常识。
684	It cannot be a	这不可能是
685	case in a freedom-loving society in which men and women should be equal.	在一个男女应平等自由的社会里。
686	Does that mean then	这是否意味着
687	Germany should have fewer people of Muslim descent?	德国应该减少穆斯林血统的人?
688	No, I'm not saying that.	不我不是那个意思
689	I just named	我刚刚命名
690	some examples where it doesn't work.	有些例子,它不起作用。
691	I wouldn't put a quota now because there are many Muslims	我不会放配额,因为有很多穆斯林
692	who suffer in this situation.	受此苦恼者.
693	They are well integrated people who work in our country	他们都是在我国工作的人
694	who also think that something went wrong in our integration policy because there are, unfortunately,	他们也认为我们的融合政策出了问题因为不幸的是
695	too many people and this country is not able to integrate all of them, unfortunately.	不幸的是,太多的人和这个国家无法融合他们所有人。
696	So it's a question of integration and behavior, not of faith, skin color.	因此这是一个整合和行为的问题,而不是信仰,肤色的问题.
697	You are happy for people	你为人高兴
698	who are integrated, you are concerned about people who are not.	他们被整合, 你关心的人不是。
699	Is that right?	是吗?
700	Thank you for mentioning the skin color.	谢谢你提到肤色
701	The skin color, it doesn't matter and it shouldn't be,	皮肤的颜色,没关系而且不应该是,
702	because otherwise there is a racist argument about it.	因为它有种族主义的争论。
703	For us, we don't care.	对我们来说,我们不在乎。
704	I don't care	我无所谓
705	if somebody is dark-colored like my wife or white-colored.	如果有人像我妻子一样黑或者白
706	What counts is merit.	重要的是功绩。
707	We need	我们需要
708	to have a merit-based system and not a quota and anti-discrimination quota.	实行以成绩为基础的制度,而不是配额和反歧视配额。
709	When you speak and in our conversation, you've described yourself as a libertarian conservative.	当你说话以及在我们的谈话中, 你形容自己是一个自由主义的保守派。
710	I sometimes scratch my head about what a libertarian conservative is, but you focus	我有时候会抓着头说自由派保守派是什么但你集中注意力
711	on personal freedom.	个人自由。
712	When I read, I think it's all 252 pages of the manifesto of your colleagues in	我读到的时候,我认为这是你同事的252页宣言
713	Saxon-Anhalt.	萨克森-安哈尔特.
714	I understand it's a state manifesto, it's not the formal party's federal manifesto,	我知道这是州宣言不是正式党的联邦宣言
715	but there are a number of things in there that do not sound very libertarian to me,	但里面有一些东西听起来不太自由
716	that sound really very extreme.	这听起来真的很极端。
717	I'm asking this because, as you know, many people worry	我问这个是因为,你知道,很多人担心
718	you are an extreme, hard-right, far-right party.	你是一个极端的, 硬的右, 极右党。
719	I know you deny it.	我知道你否认
720	When I read this manifesto,	当我读到这个宣言时,
721	I thought, I can understand why people worry about it.	我想,我可以理解为什么人们担心它。
722	The manifesto calls for removing the	宣言要求删除
723	children of refugees and disabled children from school classrooms.	难民儿童和来自学校教室的残疾儿童。
724	It calls for Heimatkunde,	它呼吁海马特昆德,
725	a study of the country's history.	国史研究.
726	It wants more Bismarck, less Hitler in the curriculum,	它想要更多的俾斯麦, 少希特勒在课程,
727	a punishment for offending the German state.	对触犯德国国家的惩罚
728	It seems to me that this is a manifesto for	在我看来,这是一份宣言
729	a party that wants to actively use the state to create a particular kind of Germany.	一方希望积极利用国家来创造特定的德国
730	That's not libertarian.	这不是自由主义者。
731	That's much more like what most people call the far right.	这更像大多数人所说的"最正确".
732	Well, for us, we, actually some examples I like, like for instance, Heimatkunde and more Bismarck	嗯,对我们来说,我们,实际上一些例子我喜欢,比如,海马特昆德和更多的俾斯麦。
733	and Goethe and Schiller and less Hitler would be good.	歌德和席勒少一点希特勒也好
734	Because people forget our history,	因为人们忘记了我们的历史
735	our long history.	我们漫长的历史。
736	But I don't want to talk about that.	但我不想谈这个
737	I just want to explain the position of my	我只想解释一下我的立场
738	colleagues in Sachsen-Anhalt, who won actually 45% of the votes there, that they want to have	Sachsen-Anhalt的同事, 他们赢得了45%的选票, 他们想得到
739	a Germany that is in order.	a 德国符合规定。
740	We have a positive vision of Germany.	我们对德国抱有积极的看法。
741	We want to have secure borders.	我们希望有安全的边界。
742	We want to have families who are able to afford a house, who are able to afford a family,	我们想要有家庭谁能买得起房子, 谁能买得起家庭,
743	and having secure streets, secure schools.	拥有安全的街道,安全的学校。
744	And I think it's common sense.	我觉得这是常识
745	And I'm very sorry,	我很遗憾,
746	this entire framing of being hard right, far right, it's not true.	这整个框架很难对,非常对, 这不是真的。
747	Why should it be the case?	为什么应该这样?
748	Why is it far right, hard right, extremist right to be an advocate for secure borders	为什么做安全边界的倡导者是极右、极右、极右
749	against illegal migration, being against the destruction of our energy infrastructure?	反对非法移民,反对破坏我们的能源基础设施?
750	It is, from my perspective, common sense.	从我的角度来看,这是常识。
751	And therefore, we would like to preserve the positive	因此,我们希望保持积极的
752	values of our countries and extrapolate it in the future.	我们各国的价值观,以及将来的推论。
753	And we want a country that is normal and	我们希望有一个正常的国家
754	in order and being on a level playing field with our European partners and also being a partner	* 与我们的欧洲伙伴保持公平竞争,并成为伙伴;
755	to Great Britain, to the US, to Russia.	去大不列颠,去美国,去俄罗斯
756	And I think we are on the wrong path,	我认为我们走错了路,
757	but not only in Germany, also in Great Britain, and in other countries.	不仅在德国, 在大不列颠, 和其他国家。
758	We talked about it.	我们谈过了
759	And	还有
760	I think what we are lacking is normal policies for the people.	我认为我们所缺乏的是对人民的正常政策。
761	And that is the reason why	这就是为什么
762	why we advocate for common sense policy.	我们为什么主张常识政策。
763	And I wouldn't call it far right or extremist.	我也不会说这是非常正确或极端的。
764	So let me just- It's very normal, actually.	让我... 其实很正常
765	Let me just quote you one more one, which says,	让我再引用一个,它说,
766	quote, an intact family consisting of mother, father and children is proven to be the best	引用一句,一个由母亲、父亲和子女组成的完整家庭证明是最棒的。
767	prerequisite for good and healthy child development.	儿童健康成长的先决条件。
768	That is what it says in the manifesto.	宣言中就是这么说的。
769	You mentioned your wife, you and your wife are raising two children in Switzerland.	你提到你的妻子, 你和你的妻子正在瑞士抚养两个孩子。
770	She is	没错
771	Sri Lankan born.	斯里兰卡出生.
772	You clearly do not follow this description.	你显然没有遵循这个描述。
773	Well, I don't need to.	好吧,我没有必要。
774	Well,	那个
775	I don't need to, because actually my wife is Swiss.	我不需要因为我妻子是瑞士人
776	That's the reason why.	故说.
777	And it's	这是
778	always a fun fact.	总是一个有趣的事实。
779	But anyway, I can advocate for a family comprising of a man, of a woman and	但无论如何,我可以倡导一个家庭一个男人,一个女人和
780	children, because this is a model in which over 90% of the children grow up.	这是90%以上儿童成长的典范。
781	I can be for this	我可以为这个
782	model.	型号。
783	And I also signed this.	我也签了这个
784	And the party, for instance, completely tolerates a model like me.	例如,派对完全容忍我这样的模特儿
785	But it may be also the fact I'm very liberal about lifestyles.	但也可能是因为我对生活方式很自由
786	I think everyone should live	我觉得每个人都应该活着
787	his own life and the state should not interfere in every aspect of life.	他自己的生活和国家不应干涉生活的各个方面。
788	And I'm completely	我绝对
789	opposing the queer policy and gender stuff.	反对同性恋的政策和性别的东西。
790	I think this really distorts people, especially	我认为这真的扭曲了人们,特别是
791	when they are young.	当他们年轻的时候。
792	For instance, in Germany, they got this law in the last government that young	例如,在德国,他们得到了这个法律在上届政府
793	people can change their, not on young people, but starting at the young age, that people can change	人们可以改变他们,而不是年轻人, 但从年轻开始,人们可以改变
794	their gender once a year.	他们的性别一年一度。
795	I'm sorry.	对不起
796	And this is ridiculous and very disturbing and irritating,	这是荒谬的,非常令人不安的,令人烦恼,
797	especially for young people, for teenagers.	特别是年轻人,青少年。
798	And we need to go back to a normal policy	我们需要回到正常的政策
799	and not having constructions like social genders and not having biological genders.	和没有像社会性别那样的建筑和没有生物性别。
800	I think it is the wrong way and really distorts especially young people.	我认为这是错误的方式,并真正扭曲特别是年轻人。
801	I understand that.	这我知道
802	But just to be clear, you're confident	不过要说清楚,你有信心
803	that your party would respect the rights and freedoms of families like yours?	你的党会尊重你这样的家庭的权利和自由?
804	Absolutely.	当然
805	You're watching an interview from The Economist.	你在看《经济学家》的采访
806	If you want to watch our other interviews,	如果你想看我们的其他采访,
807	包括Mark Carney和Dario Amadei,点击链接订阅《经济学家》
808	above.	页:1
809	Now back to the interview.	现在回到采访。
810	You describe yourself as a libertarian,	你形容自己是个自由主义者
811	and I'm pretty sure you are, but there are in your party very clearly small but clear,	我敢肯定,你是, 但是在你的党非常明显小但清楚,
812	frankly, neo-Nazi elements.	坦白说新纳粹分子
813	No.	没有
814	I mean, Björn Höcke, twice found guilty and fined for using Nazi slogans.	Björn Höcke两次被判有罪并因使用纳粹口号被罚款
815	Just recently,	刚才
816	these reports about four advisors to your leader in Saxony-Anhalt, they were part of the	在萨克森-安哈尔特的你领袖的四位顾问他们参与了
817	banned neo-Nazi youth movement.	禁止新纳粹青年运动。
818	Are you denying that you're saying there's nobody in the AFD	你否认你在说AFD里没人吗?
819	with any proto-fascist tendency?	有法西斯倾向吗?
820	Oh my goodness.	天呐
821	This interview has been	这次采访是
822	going very well.	进展顺利
823	No, it's important.	不,这很重要。
824	Yes, yes.	对,对。
825	But these accusations are completely unfunded.	但这些指控完全没有资金。
826	Okay.	摆
827	Then categorically tell me that that is not the case.	那就明确告诉我,情况并非如此。
828	And if there were,	如果有的话
829	you would throw them out?	你会扔出去吗?
830	Well, absolutely.	当然
831	This is not the case.	事实并非如此。
832	The accusations are unfunded.	这些指控没有资金。
833	So Björn Höcke, he has been	所以比约恩·霍克他一直
834	found guilty and fined for using Nazi slogans.	因使用纳粹口号被判有罪并罚款。
835	Everything for Germany is a Nazi slogan.	德国的一切都是纳粹的口号.
836	It's	这是
837	Do you think it's a Nazi slogan?	你觉得那是纳粹的口号吗?
838	I don't think so.	亦不见.
839	So you don't think there is anybody in the party in Saxony-Anhalt, in Turinger, who has	所以你不认为在萨克森 -安哈尔特的派对里有谁在图林格
840	any Nazi, proto-Nazi tendencies?	有没有纳粹,原纳粹倾向?
841	The framing is very severe and we have	陷害非常严重,我们有
842	nothing to do with that.	和那个无关
843	And why are you asking me this question?	你为什么要问我这个问题?
844	I'm asking you because it is honestly probably the single most important question that people	我问你,因为老实说,这可能是一个最重要的问题人们
845	ask about the AfD.	问阿联酋.
846	They say the AfD is an extreme right party and they worry,	他们说AfD是一个极端正确的政党他们担心,
847	understandably, given Germany's history, that there are people in your party who have sort of	可以理解的是,从德国的历史来看, 你的党里有些人有某种
848	echoes of the 1930s.	20世纪30年代的回声.
849	You know my mother is German.	你知道我母亲是德国人
850	I grew up, spent part of my time here.	我长大了,在这里呆了一段时间
851	I am not	我没有
852	at all surprised that people are really worried about this.	令人惊讶的是人们真的担心这一点。
853	Well, we had that before, that the	嗯,我们以前有过, 那个
854	framing of far-right extremists is unfunded.	陷害极右极端分子的资金没有着落。
855	I think that we stand for a common sense policy	我认为我们赞成一种常识政策
856	that I laid out in this interview and that the framing of the horrible time of the Third Reich,	我在这次采访中陈述了第三帝国的可怕时代
857	because you've been mentioning this now several times, that the framing and putting the	因为你已经提到过很多次了, 画框和放置
858	alternative for Germany in a continuation of these horrible, terrible times of the Third Reich,	在第三帝国的可怕和可怕的时代继续德国的另类选择
859	it's just used against us to harm our reputation and nothing can be more untrue, to be honest.	它只是用来对付我们伤害我们的名誉没有什么更不真实,说实话。
860	That's interesting.	这很有趣。
861	But do you agree that there are many people, people who take part in demonstrations	但你是否同意有很多人参加示威游行
862	against you, who worry about the extreme elements in your party?	谁担心你的党内极端分子?
863	And what could you do	你能怎么办?
864	as you are continuing to grow in popularity?	你越来越受欢迎?
865	Do you think it's a priority to reassure those people	你觉得让这些人放心是优先事项吗?
866	that they have nothing to worry about?	他们没什么好担心的吗?
867	Well, you know, we don't have extremists in our party.	我们党里没有极端分子
868	We	我们
869	are not an extreme party.	不是一个极端的党。
870	It's an unserious framing to be very harmful to our reputation.	对我们的名声非常有害是个不严肃的陷害
871	It doesn't work anymore.	已无功用.
872	We reached, as you mentioned right at the beginning, we reached	正如你一开始提到的那样,我们达到了
873	over 30% on a federal level, putting the chancellor's party at below 18% already,	在联邦一级超过30%, 使总统的党已经低于18%,
874	having a delta of 12 to 13% already.	已经拥有12%至13%的三角洲。
875	And the people, also the German voters, they don't	人民,还有德国选民,他们不
876	believe this anymore.	相信这一点了。
877	I think you said last year that your goal is to get over 40%,	我想你去年说过你的目标是得到40%以上
878	which would be an impressive, but still not enough to govern by yourselves.	这将是一个令人印象深刻,但仍不足以自己治理。
879	And right now,	现在
880	as you know, Germany has the firewall, the Brandmauer, no one will deal with you.	如你所知德国有防火墙勃朗莫尔没人会对付你
881	But	不过
882	do you think, first of all, that that will go?	你认为,首先, 这会去?
883	And secondly, do you think you are prepared	第二,你觉得你准备好了吗?
884	to make some compromises to work with others in order to be in power?	为了当权而与他人合作?
885	You know, I think the Brandmauer, the firewall, is very harmful for the chancellor's party	你知道,我觉得Brandmauer,防火墙, 是非常有害的议员的派对
886	that slipped below 20%, now at 17%.	跌到20%以下,现在为17%。
887	You have to imagine this chancellor's party.	你得想象一下这位总统的派对
888	And it's very harmful for them.	这对他们非常有害
889	And it's also very harmful for our country because the voters	这对我国也非常有害因为选民
890	keep voting for a coalition of CDU and AFD or AFD right now and CDU because we are much stronger	现在继续投票支持CDU和AFD或AFD的联盟和CDU,因为我们更强大
891	right now.	现在
892	We overtook the CDU.	我们超越了CDU。
893	And I think our country deserves it to have common sense,	我认为我们的国家应该有常识
894	good policies for our country.	对我国有良好的政策。
895	And yeah, having an undemocratic tool such as a firewall,	是的,有一个不民主的工具如防火墙,
896	it manifests the hard left parties like imposing very severe, as you can see here in Berlin,	它表现了困难的左翼政党就像强制非常严重, 正如你在柏林看到的,
897	we may have a leftist government and making them stronger.	我们可能有一个左派政府让他们更强大
898	So therefore the entire strategy of a	因此,整个战略是:
899	firewall like strengthens the leftist block parties and imposing such as high taxes and also	防火墙像加强左翼的阻塞党并强制推行诸如高税收和
900	and yeah, let's see what's going to happen.	是的,让我们看看会发生什么。
901	But if it were to go,	但是,如果它要离开,
902	would you make compromises to work with others?	你会做出妥协与他人合作?
903	Why should we?	为什么?
904	Because politics is often about	因为政治经常涉及
905	compromise.	妥协
906	I think on our main points that I've laid out in our interview, there are no	我认为,关于我们在访谈中阐述的要点,没有
907	compromises to be made because our country and our people, they deserve it.	因为我们的国家和人民应该作出妥协。
908	And I think the CDU has	我觉得CDU已经
909	to move first.	首先移动。
910	And if the CDU doesn't move very quickly, they perish very soon.	如果CDU不迅速行动,它们很快就会消亡.
911	That is a very strong note on which to end and is vital.	这是结束和至关重要的一个非常有力的问题。
912	Thank you very much for joining me.	非常感谢你加入我
913	Thank you very much for having me.	谢谢你邀请我

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