拒绝被金钱买断！医生出身的民主党新星《60分钟》专访：打破医
字幕摘录
| 时间 | 英文 | 中文 |
|---|---|---|
| 0:00 | So, I have some questions for you that are pretty close to identical to questions that | 所以,我有些问题要问你 与问题差不多 |
| 0:05 | I ask your opponent, and we're going to start with some of those. | 我问你的对手 我们先说一些 |
| 0:09 | Why are you running for U.S. Senate? | 你为什么竞选美国参议院? |
| 0:11 | It shouldn't be this hard. | 不应该这么难 |
| 0:13 | It shouldn't be this hard in the richest, most powerful country in the world to afford | 世界上最有钱最强大的国家 应该不会这么难 |
| 0:15 | to take a gas or your groceries or to pay your rent or your mortgage. | 或支付房租或抵押贷款。 |
| 0:19 | It shouldn't be as hard to see a doctor. | 应该不会很难看医生 |
| 0:21 | And it doesn't have to be. | 亦不须是. |
| 0:22 | It's a choice we make about what kind of politics we have. | 这是一个选择,我们有什么样的政治。 |
| 0:24 | Right now, we've watched politicians get bought off by big corporations. | 现在,我们已经看到政客 被大公司收购。 |
展开字幕全文（1401 条）
| 序号 | 英文 | 中文 |
|---|---|---|
| 1 | So, I have some questions for you that are pretty close to identical to questions that | 所以,我有些问题要问你 与问题差不多 |
| 2 | I ask your opponent, and we're going to start with some of those. | 我问你的对手 我们先说一些 |
| 3 | Why are you running for U.S. Senate? | 你为什么竞选美国参议院? |
| 4 | It shouldn't be this hard. | 不应该这么难 |
| 5 | It shouldn't be this hard in the richest, most powerful country in the world to afford | 世界上最有钱最强大的国家 应该不会这么难 |
| 6 | to take a gas or your groceries or to pay your rent or your mortgage. | 或支付房租或抵押贷款。 |
| 7 | It shouldn't be as hard to see a doctor. | 应该不会很难看医生 |
| 8 | And it doesn't have to be. | 亦不须是. |
| 9 | It's a choice we make about what kind of politics we have. | 这是一个选择,我们有什么样的政治。 |
| 10 | Right now, we've watched politicians get bought off by big corporations. | 现在,我们已经看到政客 被大公司收购。 |
| 11 | And those corporations have their way in Washington, D.C., and it means they do two things. | 而那些公司在华盛顿有他们的方式, 这意味着他们做两件事。 |
| 12 | They suppress our wages, they raise our prices, and we end up bearing the brunt of it. | 他们压低我们的工资,提高我们的价格,我们最终首当其冲。 |
| 13 | I'm a doctor who rebuilt health departments, put glasses on kids, took on corporate polluters, | 我是一位医生,他重建了卫生部门, 给孩子戴上眼镜, 给企业污染者, |
| 14 | eliminated medical debt. | 取消了医疗债务。 |
| 15 | I know I'm not supposed to run for office. | 我知道我不该竞选公职 |
| 16 | I got 11-letter first names, got sounds that come out of parts of people's throats. | 我有11个字母的名字 声音来自人们喉咙的一部分 |
| 17 | Most people don't know they have. | 大多数人不知道他们有。 |
| 18 | But I also know it just shouldn't be this hard. | 但我也知道不应该这么难 |
| 19 | And so, you know, we built this campaign the old-fashioned way, going everywhere, talking | 所以,你知道,我们建立了这场运动 过时的方式,去任何地方,说话 |
| 20 | to everyone. | 给大家 |
| 21 | And I believe in that kind of politics. | 我相信这种政治。 |
| 22 | And if we're going to actually get our democracy back, it's going to be that kind of politics. | 如果我们真的要恢复我们的民主, 这将是那种政治。 |
| 23 | Democracy is a process, not an outcome. | 民主是一个进程,而不是结果。 |
| 24 | And it's about working the process. | 这是关于工作的过程。 |
| 25 | Out of that range of issues and ideas, what is the most important issue that you hear | 在一系列的问题和想法中,你听到的最重要的问题是什么? |
| 26 | about from Michigan voters in this campaign? | 密歇根州竞选选民的事? |
| 27 | Pick one. | 选一个 |
| 28 | Had you asked me five years ago, I would have said health care. | 如果你5年前问我, 我会说保健。 |
| 29 | It still is really, really high on people's minds. | 这在人们的脑海中还是很高的 |
| 30 | I think right now, we are barreling total world where the most important issue I hear about | 我认为,现在,我们正在打 整个世界 我听到的最重要的问题 |
| 31 | every day is AI. | 每天都是爱尔 |
| 32 | It is foundationally going to change our economy and change our economy at a time scale that | 从根本上说,它将改变我们的经济,并改变我们的经济,时间尺度是: |
| 33 | we cannot adapt to. | 我们无法适应。 |
| 34 | And if that happens, or if AI slips human control, or it's taken by some terrorist | 如果发生这种情况,或者如果AI 逃脱人类控制,或者它被一些恐怖分子采取 |
| 35 | group who wants to create a bioweapon, or it ends up in an arms race where we end up, | 想要制造生物武器的集团, 或者说它最终会陷入一场军备竞赛, 而我们最终会陷入一场军备竞赛, |
| 36 | you know, winning but then losing half of what it meant to win in the first place, which | 你知道,赢,但然后失去一半 它意味着在第一, |
| 37 | is preserving humanity, all of these outcomes are really, really quite scary. | 保护人类 所有这些结果都非常非常可怕 |
| 38 | I hear it in so many different ways. | 我从很多不同方面听到的 |
| 39 | Yeah. | 对 |
| 40 | Tell me about that. | 告诉我 |
| 41 | Do you, I mean, this has been a very important elite level conversation over the last couple | 你,我的意思是,这是 一个非常重要的精英层谈话 在过去的夫妇 |
| 42 | years, but are you hearing about it on the trail? | 几年了,但是你听说了吗? |
| 43 | It comes in two different ways. | 以二种法来. |
| 44 | One is students saying, so I just took $60,000 in loans, and the job that I was supposed | 一个是学生说, 所以我刚刚拿了6万美元贷款, 和我本来应该做的工作 |
| 45 | to have on the back end doesn't exist anymore or might not exist in 10 years. | 在后端不存在 或可能不存在 在10年。 |
| 46 | Or it's folks in rural communities who say, we're trying to put a data center in my backyard, | 或者是乡村社区的人说, 我们试图在我的后院设置一个数据中心, |
| 47 | I already can't afford my utilities, and I'm worried about what it's going to mean | 我已经付不起水电费了 我很担心这是什么意思 |
| 48 | for our water. | 我们的水。 |
| 49 | These are issues that people are deathly afraid of, and it shows up in just all kinds of ways. | 这些都是人们非常害怕的问题, 它以各种方式出现。 |
| 50 | But I also think that, you know, it goes back to the healthcare question, too. | 但我也认为,你知道,它 回到保健问题。 |
| 51 | You know, they promised us that AI was going to cure cancer. | 你知道,他们答应我们 AI会治愈癌症。 |
| 52 | I haven't seen a cure for cancer yet. | 我还没看过癌症的治疗方法 |
| 53 | But now it's being used in this arms race around prior authorization, this arms race | 但是现在它被用在了 事先授权的军备竞赛中, 这场军备竞赛 |
| 54 | between hospitals and insurance companies to figure out who can bill more or pay less | 在医院和保险公司之间 找出谁可以多付或少付 |
| 55 | for healthcare that's getting whittled away. | 给那些正在崩溃的病人 |
| 56 | We forgot what the point was, which is to provide people care, not to make money for | 我们忘了什么是重点, 即提供人们的照顾, 不赚钱为 |
| 57 | a few large corporations. | 几个大公司。 |
| 58 | It all kind of really goes back to the same issue, which is why I want to get money out | 这一切都真的回到同一个问题, 这就是为什么我想得到钱出来 |
| 59 | of politics to put money in pockets, past Medicare for All. | 政治把钱放在口袋里, 过去的全民医保。 |
| 60 | Conveniently, this was also one of the questions that I had for Mike Rogers, which was, what | 简而言之,这也是我对迈克·罗杰斯的疑问之一。 |
| 61 | should Congress do about the risks of AI? | 国会是否应该解决AI的风险? |
| 62 | I think there's a couple of things. | 我觉得有几件事 |
| 63 | Number one, we need a cabinet-level agency that is going to invest in and focus on regulating | 第一,我们需要一个内阁一级的机构 投资并专注于监管 |
| 64 | the inside of the AI industry, kind of like an FDA or an SEC for AI. | AI行业的内部, 有点像FDA或SEC 对于AI。 |
| 65 | We need to also make sure that there are no AI or AI no-goes, meaning AI shouldn't fire | 我们还需要确保没有AI或AI的禁欲 这意味着AI不应该开火 |
| 66 | a weapon, shouldn't fire you, shouldn't be able to deny you healthcare. | 武器,不应该解雇你, 不应该拒绝你的保健。 |
| 67 | When it comes to the corporations themselves, I think they need to be divested from | 说到公司本身 我认为他们需要从 |
| 68 | traditional big tech. | 传统大科技. |
| 69 | They need to be reborn, rebuilt as public interest corporations. | 他们需要重生,重建为公益公司。 |
| 70 | And I think we need democratically- | 我认为我们需要民主... |
| 71 | Nationalized? | 国有化? |
| 72 | Not nationalized, but democratically appointed leadership at 50 percent of the board. | 未国有化,但以50%的董事会比例以民主方式任命领导. |
| 73 | So you're talking about sort of a public-private- | 所以,你说的是一种 公 -- 私人 - |
| 74 | Right. | 对 |
| 75 | And is that about democratic control? | 这是关于民主控制吗? |
| 76 | Is it about sharing wealth? | 是分享财富吗? |
| 77 | What's the goal? | 目标是什么? |
| 78 | In part, it's going to be democratic control, in part sharing wealth. | 一部分是民主控制,一部分是分享财富. |
| 79 | The other thing I think that needs to happen is that you need 50 percent of their value | 另一件事,我认为需要发生 就是你需要50%的价值 |
| 80 | held in what could kind of be called a sovereign wealth fund. | 在一个可以称为主权财富基金。 |
| 81 | And the point here is this. | 重点是这个。 |
| 82 | Number one, you need to make sure that the risks that we are barreling toward are thought | 第一,你需要确保 我们面对的风险被思考 |
| 83 | through at the board governance level, that we're not just inadvertently following this | 在董事会治理层 我们不只是无意中跟踪 |
| 84 | micro-scale incentive to create technologies that could kill us all, and that if the CEOs | 微小的激励 创造技术 可以杀死我们所有人, 如果CEO |
| 85 | are right, that this is going to potentially take 50 percent of the white collar jobs in | 这可能会占用50%的白领工作 |
| 86 | the order of five to 10 years, that part of the value that might be created isn't just | 五到十年的顺序, 这部分价值可能创造 不仅仅是 |
| 87 | held by a few billionaires in San Francisco, but instead is held in part in the wealth | 由旧金山的几个亿万富翁持有, 却被部分地持有财富 |
| 88 | of the federal government to be able to reinvest in, A, the capacity for job creation, but | 联邦政府能够重新投资创造工作机会的能力,但 |
| 89 | B, the capacity to make sure that folks who are pushed out of the economy aren't led destitute. | B,确保被排挤出经济的人 不被一贫如洗的能力 |
| 90 | And then the last thing I'll say is that we need a terms of engagement for data centers. | 然后,我最后要说的是 我们需要一个数据中心的约定条件。 |
| 91 | This really is where the rubber hits the road for a lot of folks. | 这真的是橡胶撞到路的地方 对很多人来说。 |
| 92 | And those terms of engagement are the following. | 这些交往条件如下。 |
| 93 | Number one, you need community benefits agreements that are negotiated in good faith | 第一,你需要社区福利协议 诚心诚意谈判 |
| 94 | transparently with local communities, with the ability for the local community to say, | 与当地社区保持透明,地方社区有能力说, |
| 95 | we don't want this here. | 我们不希望这里有这个。 |
| 96 | Two, if you're going to put a project in a local community, it cannot raise utility rates. | 第二,如果你要把一个项目放在当地社区, 它不能提高公用事业费率。 |
| 97 | Three, it has to make sure that it improves reliability, some of that revenue that's | 第三,它必须确保它提高可靠性, 一些收入,这是 |
| 98 | created goes to improve reliability. | 建立起来是为了提高可靠性。 |
| 99 | Four, we cannot touch our waterways at all. | 第四,我们根本不能碰水道。 |
| 100 | And five, all union labor. | 第五,所有工会劳工。 |
| 101 | And I think that terms of engagement needs to exist at the federal level. | 我认为,在联邦一级必须存在接触条件。 |
| 102 | And until then, we need local and state moratoriums. | 在此之前,我们需要地方和各州的暂停。 |
| 103 | What about the frontier where companies are pushing forward? | 那公司推进的前沿呢? |
| 104 | We need a full on pause. | 我们需要一个完整的暂停。 |
| 105 | Full on pause? | 暂停? |
| 106 | Full on pause. | 完全暂停。 |
| 107 | Okay. | 摆 |
| 108 | And what happens then, the instant question, what happens if we pause and China doesn't? | 然后会发生什么,即时的问题, 如果我们停下来,中国不会发生什么? |
| 109 | See, I just don't think that that's, I don't take that as seriously as a lot of people do. | 你看,我只是不认为,这是, 我不这么认真 像很多人做的。 |
| 110 | Here's why. | 这是为什么。 |
| 111 | A lot of the frontier research is just spoofing our models. | 边疆研究中有很多只是 窥探我们的模型。 |
| 112 | China's research. | 中国研究. |
| 113 | And it'd be like, you know, you're pulling a skier on a boat and you speed up the boat | 就像你在船上拉滑雪车 加快船速 |
| 114 | and you're like, the skier is still so close. | 你就像,滑雪者仍然如此接近。 |
| 115 | We got to speed up. | 我们必须加快速度。 |
| 116 | The skier is still so close. | 滑雪者仍然如此接近. |
| 117 | Well, it's because you're pulling the skier. | 因为你在拉滑雪车 |
| 118 | And I think that's in part what's happening, right? | 我认为这在某种程度上是 发生了什么,对不对? |
| 119 | And they've been very, very good at just mocking our technology. | 他们一直非常非常擅长嘲笑我们的技术。 |
| 120 | So I think if we slow down, I think we will find that a lot of what China is doing is | 所以,我认为如果我们慢下来, 我认为我们会发现, 中国正在做的很多 |
| 121 | more about the dispersion of this technology than it is on frontier research. | 更多关于这种技术的传播 而不是前沿研究 |
| 122 | And at the same time, I think we need an international treaty. | 同时,我认为我们需要一项国际条约。 |
| 123 | I think we need to be working with the Chinese because at the end of the day- | 我想我们需要和中国人合作 因为最后... |
| 124 | Eventually, the water skier can still swim and catch up. | 最终,滑水者仍然可以游泳并赶上. |
| 125 | I mean, that's where the analogy falls apart. | 我的意思是,这就是 类比崩溃的地方。 |
| 126 | Just running with the metaphor. | 刚用比喻跑 |
| 127 | But eventually, yes, they are going to be able to hop on a jet ski and catch up. | 但最终,是的, 他们将可以跳上 喷气式滑雪并赶上。 |
| 128 | But the point that I'm making here is that I think all of us are interested in the preservation | 但我想说的是 我们所有人都对保护感兴趣 |
| 129 | of humanity because in China, they're humans too, and we're humans too, and creating robots | 因为在中国,他们也是人,我们也是人, 创造机器人 |
| 130 | {\fn黑体\fs22\bord1\shad0\3aHBE\4aH00\fscx67\fscy66\2cHFFFFFF\3cH808080}就像幻境里的恐怖点 | |
| 131 | where you've got the mops with the buckets that are self-creating. | 这里有拖把和自创的桶 |
| 132 | None of us want to get there. | 我们都不想去那儿 |
| 133 | And none of us want to see what happens when you open Pandora's box and all of a sudden, | 我们谁也不想看到 当你打开潘朵拉的盒子,突然, |
| 134 | AI has far exceeded our control. | AI已经远远超出了我们的控制范围. |
| 135 | So I think we all have an incentive to get this right, but to understand that we are | 所以,我认为我们都有一个激励 得到这一点,但理解我们 |
| 136 | going to have to figure out how to work together similarly to what we've done when it came to other | 得想出怎么合作 就像我们曾经做过的一样 |
| 137 | potentially humanity risking technological endeavors, like nuclear power, to be able | 人类可能冒着技术努力的风险,如核电,以便能够 |
| 138 | to contain the potential threat and work together to make sure that we are focused more on protecting | 遏制潜在威胁,共同努力确保我们更注重保护 |
| 139 | humanity than just simply what the microscale incentives might look like. | 人性不只是微观刺激的外形 |
| 140 | Set aside AI. | 撇开大赦国际。 |
| 141 | Pick one economic issue that you think should be the priority for the next Congress. | 选一个你认为应该成为下届国会优先事项的经济问题. |
| 142 | Monopolies and oligopolies. | 垄断与寡头垄断. |
| 143 | We live in corporatism. | 我们生活在社团主义中。 |
| 144 | We don't live in capitalism. | 我们不生活在资本主义。 |
| 145 | I'm a capitalist. | 我是资本家 |
| 146 | Capitalism is about the leveraging of supply and demand to allocate capital. | 资本主义是指利用供求杠杆来分配资本. |
| 147 | It's about free entry and exit into the market. | 涉及自由进出市场. |
| 148 | If you read Adam Smith, he'll tell you that there's no market without morals. | 如果你读亚当·斯密 他会告诉你 没有道德就没有市场 |
| 149 | He'll tell you that the biggest risk to capitalism was never government regulation. | 他会告诉你,资本主义的最大风险 从来不是政府的监管。 |
| 150 | It was always monopoly and oligopoly. | 它总是垄断和寡头垄断。 |
| 151 | And I think when you think about the most lucrative sectors of the economy, they are | 我认为当你想到 最有利可图的经济部门,他们是 |
| 152 | dominated by a few very, very powerful corporations. | 由几家非常非常强大的公司主导 |
| 153 | Now, when you get a monopoly or oligopoly, it has two clear powers in the economy. | 现在,当你获得垄断或寡头垄断时,它在经济中有两个明显的力量. |
| 154 | The first is the ability to, in effect, raise prices on you, which is why we can't afford | 第一个是提高价格的能力 所以我们买不起 |
| 155 | so much of what we can't afford. | 这么多我们买不起的东西 |
| 156 | And it has the power to suppress wages. | 它拥有压制工资的权力. |
| 157 | They act as what economists call monopsonists, meaning that they can suppress the effort for | 他们是经济学家所谓的独身主义者, 意思是他们可以压制... |
| 158 | us to trade our labor on a market to make a good living. | 将我们的劳动力交易到一个市场来维持美好生活 |
| 159 | And so you're watching as our ability to get paid for the work we do is stagnating | 所以,你看着我们 获得报酬的能力 我们的工作是停滞 |
| 160 | while the prices we pay goes up. | 我们的价钱会上涨 |
| 161 | We solved this problem over 100 years ago. | 100多年前我们解决了这个问题。 |
| 162 | And that was because we created the Federal Trade Commission. | 那是因为我们创建了联邦贸易委员会。 |
| 163 | We empowered it to break up monopolies and oligopolies. | 我们赋予它打破垄断和寡头垄断的权力。 |
| 164 | And we've basically walked away from that. | 我们基本上已经远离了它。 |
| 165 | And we've allowed a lot of these huge corporations to be able to accrue power. | 我们允许很多这些巨型公司 能够积累力量。 |
| 166 | Just give me an example, because just one thing that has tended to happen in these | 举个例子吧,因为只有一件事 发生在这些 |
| 167 | debates is that anti-monopolists will identify a company and they'll say, look at Walmart. | 辩论是反垄断主义者会识别一个公司 他们会说,看看沃尔玛 |
| 168 | It's cornered the market on everything. | 它在一切方面都占据了市场 |
| 169 | And then next thing you know, Amazon comes along and Walmart doesn't look so powerful. | 接着,亚马逊来了,沃尔玛看起来并不那么强大。 |
| 170 | Or in Silicon Valley, Facebook looks dominant. | 或者在硅谷,Facebook看起来占优势. |
| 171 | And then five years pass and you have companies like Anthropic and OpenAI as dominant players. | 五年过去了,你们有像Anthropic和OpenAI这样的公司作为主导角色. |
| 172 | So what's an example of a monopoly that holds power over an extended period of time in our era? | 那么,在我们这个时代,垄断在很长一段时间里掌握权力的一个例子是什么? |
| 173 | I'll give you one example. | 举一例. |
| 174 | DTE, our local utility. | DTE,我们的本地公用事业。 |
| 175 | They have raised our rates faster than in 46 other states over the past 20 years. | 在过去20年中,他们比其他46个州提高了我们的比率。 |
| 176 | They buy off almost every politician in our state so that they all look the other way. | 他们收买我们州几乎所有的政客 让他们都视而不见 |
| 177 | And they just make money hand over fist and that comes out of our backpockets. | 他们只是赚钱 交出拳头 从我们的后台。 |
| 178 | And rather than invest that money in improving our reliability, | 而不是用这笔钱来提高我们的可靠性 |
| 179 | I might lose power two or three times a year for three or four days at a time. | 我一年可能失去两三次的动力,一次三四天. |
| 180 | That's one example. | 这是一个例子。 |
| 181 | Similarly, everybody out there watching probably has a phone in their pocket or their purse. | 同样地, 在场观看的人 可能有一个电话 在他们的口袋或钱包。 |
| 182 | That phone is probably made by one of two companies, Samsung or Apple. | 手机可能是两家公司之一 三星或苹果公司制造的 |
| 183 | 你想想那些电话上的载体, 可能是AT&T,Verizon或T -Mobile。 | |
| 184 | That's just one example. | 这只是一个例子。 |
| 185 | Similarly, you talked about Amazon versus Walmart. | 同样,你谈到亚马逊对沃尔玛。 |
| 186 | Yeah, you traded one oligopolist for another. | 是啊,你把一个寡头交易给另一个 |
| 187 | And it's actually a perfect example. | 这其实是一个完美的例子。 |
| 188 | The reason that other one comes along is because that one has no incentive to actually compete. | 另一场比赛之所以出现的原因是,那场比赛没有实际竞争的动力。 |
| 189 | And so they start to ossify. | 于是他们开始吞噬。 |
| 190 | They don't really change their business practices | 他们不会真正改变他们的商业做法 |
| 191 | and you get another one that's able to build a more powerful monopoly on top of it. | 你得到另一个能够 建立更强大的垄断之上。 |
| 192 | But either way, either way, you don't have many players in the game. | 但无论哪种方式,无论哪种方式,游戏中你都没有太多的玩家. |
| 193 | It's not like people are choosing, do I go to Walmart or Amazon or another place? | 这不是人们的选择,我要去沃尔玛还是亚马逊? |
| 194 | But there are advantages of scale where prices while, you know, | 但规模的优势是价格,而你知道, |
| 195 | bigness drives down prices for a lot of people. | 大势驱动下的价格 很多人。 |
| 196 | Walmart drove down prices, Amazon drove down prices, right? | 沃尔玛压低价格,亚马逊压低价格,对吧? |
| 197 | Until they start driving them up, right? | 直到他们开始驾驶他们,对不对? |
| 198 | Until Amazon basically becomes the marketplace, can compete with any product on its marketplace, | 直到亚马逊基本上成为市场, 能够与其市场上的任何产品竞争, |
| 199 | can undercut their price and then raise their price because now they're the monopolist. | 可以降低价格,然后提高价格 因为现在他们是垄断者。 |
| 200 | That's just not how the system has worked. | 系统不是这样运作的 |
| 201 | I mean, unfortunately, this is just a truth of economics that when you have a monopoly, | 我的意思是,不幸的是,这只是一个经济学的真理 当你拥有垄断, |
| 202 | you are able to charge whatever price you want to charge. | 您可以收取任何费用。 |
| 203 | Americans right now are not complaining because things are too cheap. | 美国人现在没有抱怨 因为事情太便宜了 |
| 204 | We're all complaining because things are too expensive. | 我们都抱怨 因为事情太贵了 |
| 205 | And I think that's a big part of it. | 我认为这是一个很大的一部分。 |
| 206 | The other thing, you know, I think we need is a union. | 还有一件事,你知道, 我认为我们需要一个工会。 |
| 207 | I think unions are one of the most important antidotes to monopsony, right? | 我认为工会是解决独占问题最重要的解药之一 对吧? |
| 208 | The ability of a few employers to set the price for what they're going to pay in employment. | 少数用人单位在就业中能为所要付出的代价定出价格. |
| 209 | Unions empower you to then stand up and say, listen, we're going to collectivize our labor | 工会赋予你力量,然后站起来说, 听着,我们要去集合我们的劳动力 |
| 210 | and we're going to make sure that if you're going to suppress our wages, | 我们要确保 如果你要压低我们的工资, |
| 211 | we are going to push back. | 我们要往后推 |
| 212 | It's about leveraging exactly those same economies of scale against the corporations | 而是利用同样的经济 对抗公司 |
| 213 | that have managed to lower our overall wages. | 已经设法降低了我们的总体工资。 |
| 214 | Could you describe your opponent in the most fair-minded terms possible? | 你能用最公正的说法描述你的对手吗? |
| 215 | I think he's a man who at one point said he wanted to serve publicly | 我认为他是一个男人 谁曾经说过 他想公开服务 |
| 216 | and then started playing the game and got addicted. | 然后开始玩游戏 并变得上瘾。 |
| 217 | I think, you know, for him, I'm not sure that quite passes. | 我觉得,你知道的, 对于他, 我不确定 相当过去。 |
| 218 | I'm trying to be fair-minded. | 欲求正觉. |
| 219 | Look, I think at some point, I think early on in his career, | 听着,我想在某些时候, 我想在他的职业生涯早期, |
| 220 | he really got into public service for the right reasons. | 他真正进入公务部门的原因是正确的。 |
| 221 | I think at some point you start to play the game | 我想你会开始玩游戏 |
| 222 | and you start to take the rules of the game as fixed. | 你开始把游戏规则 固定。 |
| 223 | And the rules of our game in politics are about taking corporate money | 我们政治游戏的规矩是拿公司的钱 |
| 224 | to do corporate bidding and then make money on the back end | 然后在后面赚钱 |
| 225 | off the same corporations you were regulating. | 与你监管的同一家公司有关 |
| 226 | And I think he played that game. | 我觉得他玩了那个游戏 |
| 227 | It worked out really well for him. | 对他来说很成功 |
| 228 | He made 14 million bucks and moved to Florida, bought a mansion and two yachts. | 他赚了1400万美元,搬到了佛罗里达州,买了一座豪宅和两艘游艇. |
| 229 | And he's watching Donald Trump play that game and make billions. | 他看着唐纳德·特朗普玩那个游戏 赚了几十亿 |
| 230 | So he's like, I better get in while the getting's good. | 所以,他喜欢,我最好 进去的同时,得到好。 |
| 231 | I mean, look, I think he's somebody who has never asked why things are the way they are. | 我的意思是,你看,我想他是一个 谁从来没有问 为什么事情是他们的方式。 |
| 232 | I think he's somebody who, for him, it's just like, I guess this is how it is. | 我觉得他就是那种人,对他来说,就像,我猜是这样的 |
| 233 | I'll just say this was a challenging question for both of you. | 我只能说这对你们来说是个挑战性的问题 |
| 234 | And leave it at that. | 把它留在这。 |
| 235 | Let's go into your biography. | 让我们去你的传记。 |
| 236 | Tell me how your family came to the U.S. | 告诉我你的家人是怎么来到美国的 |
| 237 | My dad wanted to make cars. | 我爸想造车 |
| 238 | And he was the eldest son of the smartest person I ever met | 他是我见过最聪明的人的长子 |
| 239 | who never got to go to school, my grandmother. | 她从不上学 我奶奶 |
| 240 | She was the ninth of 14. | 她是14个中的第9个 |
| 241 | Raised her six of eight kids to whom she gave birth to die before the first birthday. | 把她生下来的8个孩子中的6个抚养长大,在一岁生日之前就死了. |
| 242 | My dad was her eldest, so he watched his two siblings pass before he turned five. | 我爸爸是她的长子,所以他看着他的两个兄弟姐妹在他五岁之前通过. |
| 243 | And he was a great student. | 他是一个伟大的学生。 |
| 244 | And he, you know, I remember him telling me the first time he saw | 他,你知道,我记得他告诉我 他第一次看到 |
| 245 | a full page spread in a magazine of a corvette. | 一整页的传播 在一本杂志的护卫。 |
| 246 | And he was like, I want to make that. | 他想,我想做到这一点。 |
| 247 | And that's what he did. | 他就是这样干的 |
| 248 | How old was he when he came to the U.S.? | 他来美国时多大了? |
| 249 | I think, well, let's say he came in 1978. | 我想,好吧,我们假设他是1978年来的。 |
| 250 | Uh, so he's in early 20s. | 20多岁了 |
| 251 | Came to do a Ph.D. at this university at Wayne State. | 来韦恩州这所大学做博士 |
| 252 | And, uh, and became an automotive engineer. | 然后成为汽车工程师 |
| 253 | Worked at GM at the tech center, helped the design, 96 Corvette. | 在GM技术中心工作,帮助设计,96 Corvette. |
| 254 | And for the car lovers out there, that was also the engine that was put in the 96 Impala, | 对外面的汽车爱好者来说, 这也是96 Impala的引擎, |
| 255 | which is the fastest boat you ever saw. | 这是你见过最快的船 |
| 256 | And met and married my mom. | 结识并娶了我妈 |
| 257 | She came to the United States. | 她来到美国。 |
| 258 | They realized that after creating the one thing that they ever created, which was me, | 他们意识到,在创造了他们创造的一件事之后,那就是我。 |
| 259 | they had deep creative differences and got divorced and both remarried. | 他们有深刻的创造性分歧 并离婚 和两人再婚。 |
| 260 | I was raised by my dad and my stepmom, Jackie. | 我由我爸和继母杰基抚养长大 |
| 261 | She is a daughter of the American Revolution from Gratiot County, the middle of the state. | 她是美国革命的女儿,来自该州中部的格拉蒂奥特县. |
| 262 | She is the daughter of Jan and Judy Johnson, with siblings Jeff and Jenny Johnson. | 她是扬和朱迪·约翰逊的女儿,有兄弟姐妹杰夫和珍妮·约翰逊. |
| 263 | You get the picture here. | 你在这里得到的照片。 |
| 264 | I should have been job dual, but, you know, I missed that boat. | 我应该有双重工作, 但我错过了那艘船。 |
| 265 | And, you know, I grew up with my dad and my stepmom and two siblings. | 而且,你知道,我长大了 与我爸和我的继母 和两个兄弟姐妹。 |
| 266 | I've also got two other half siblings on my mom's side. | 还有两个半个兄弟姐妹在我妈妈身边 |
| 267 | What was it like growing up as a child of immigrants in Michigan? | 在密歇根州作为一个移民的孩子长大时是什么感觉? |
| 268 | Pretty great. | 不错 |
| 269 | I mean, I moved around a lot, so I spent some of my childhood years in Missouri, | 我搬了很多地方 所以我在密苏里度过了一些童年 |
| 270 | some of my childhood years in Florida, but was back by the fifth grade. | 我童年在佛罗里达的一些年头 但五年级就回来了 |
| 271 | And, you know, people talk about code switching, right? | 而且,你知道,人们谈论 代码转换,对不对? |
| 272 | Trying to figure out, like, where you fit. | 试着想出你适合的地方 |
| 273 | I was raised in this family where my dad is an Egyptian immigrant, | 我在这个家庭长大 我爸爸是埃及移民 |
| 274 | my stepmom is a daughter of the American Revolution. | 我的继母是美国革命的女儿 |
| 275 | Really understanding these differences in perspective and culture, | 真正理解这些观点和文化差异, |
| 276 | but also coming to understand how to sort of explain the least common denominator of things. | 也开始理解如何解释 事物的最小共同点 |
| 277 | You know, in a given summer, my folks would ship me out to Egypt, | 你知道,在一个特定的夏天, 我的家人会把我送到埃及, |
| 278 | where I'd be the only one of the family who went. | 在那里,我将是唯一一个 谁去的家庭。 |
| 279 | Spent like four months there with my teta, my grandmother, | 在那里呆了四个月 和我的Teta 我的祖母 |
| 280 | my grandfather, my aunts and uncles, my cousins. | 我的祖父,我的姨妈和叔叔,我的堂兄弟 |
| 281 | And then I'd come back at the very end of the summer | 然后我在夏天的尽头回来 |
| 282 | to a cottage on a lake in the middle of Michigan, Montcalm County. | 在密歇根州密歇根州中部的一个湖畔的小屋里 |
| 283 | And the crazy thing about it is, you know, whether it was my teta Suad or my grandma Judy, | 疯狂的事情是,你知道, 无论是我的Teta Suad 还是我奶奶朱迪, |
| 284 | one of the things you come to appreciate is these two women could not have imagined | 你来欣赏的一件事是 这两个女人无法想象 |
| 285 | the lives of one another lead, but I got to live part of them with both. | 彼此的生活是领先的 但我得和他们一起生活 |
| 286 | And I remember explaining one grandmother to the other grandmother. | 我记得我向另一个祖母解释过 |
| 287 | But the thing about it is, when your grandmother makes your favorite meal, | 但问题是,当你的祖母 做你最喜欢的食物, |
| 288 | kisses you on the forehead, tells you it's going to be just fine, it feels the same. | 亲吻你的额头,告诉你 它会很好,感觉一样。 |
| 289 | And those are the, I think, the least common denominators of what make us human. | 我认为,这些是我们人类最没有共同点的。 |
| 290 | And so in a lot of ways, I've never been able to take for granted | 所以,在许多方面,我从来没有能够 认为理所当然 |
| 291 | that I was normal in any room I walked into, not one, not even my own house. | 我在任何我走进的房间都是正常的,不是一间,甚至我自己的房子。 |
| 292 | And that's a gift because you get really good at having to explain yourself | 那是个礼物 因为你很会解释自己 |
| 293 | and having to understand how people understand you. | 并且必须理解人们是如何理解你的。 |
| 294 | And I really appreciate that. | 我真的很感谢 |
| 295 | If you're elected, you'll be the first Muslim senator. | 当选后成为首位穆斯林参议员. |
| 296 | And, you know, there's a lot of people, Muslim, Christian, | 而且,你知道,有很多人,穆斯林,基督徒, |
| 297 | otherwise, who are raised in a religion and it doesn't stick. | 否则,谁在一个宗教中长大, 它不粘。 |
| 298 | Why did faith stick for you? | 为什么信仰坚持你? |
| 299 | I think anybody of faith has on again, off again, relationships with one's own faith. | 我认为任何人的信仰 再次,关闭, 与一个人的信仰的关系。 |
| 300 | Faith is a choice one makes every day, right? | 信仰是天天的选择,对吧? |
| 301 | And in my younger years, I certainly rebelled. | 在我年轻的时候 我当然叛逆了 |
| 302 | And it was something that kind of came back to me in college. | 大学时,我又想起了这种事 |
| 303 | And I was sort of out from underneath my family and trying to make sense of the world. | 我有点离家出走 试图让世界明白 |
| 304 | And I think the thing about faith is that it reminds you you're small in the eyes of God, right? | 我认为关于信仰的事情是 它提醒你,在上帝的眼中,你是小的,对不对? |
| 305 | And when you realize that you are small relative to everything else around you, | 当你意识到你比周围的一切都小的时候 |
| 306 | you don't even need faith for this. | 你甚至不需要相信这一点。 |
| 307 | But staring at the ocean does this. | 但看着大海会这样 |
| 308 | Staring at a mountain does this. | 看着山会这样 |
| 309 | Thinking about how you fit within the cosmos does this. | 想想你是如何融入宇宙的 这样做。 |
| 310 | And when you appreciate how small you are and the fact that, you know, on average, | 当你体会到自己是多么的渺小 以及平均来说 |
| 311 | you and I are right around the same age, we're about halfway done, right? | 你和我在同一个年龄左右, 我们大约完成一半,对不对? |
| 312 | You start to think about, like, what is it that I mean here? | 你开始思考,喜欢, 它是什么意思在这里? |
| 313 | And how does one's life make meaning? | 人生的意义如何? |
| 314 | And you start to realize that the things that matter the most in the world | 你开始意识到 世界上最重要的事情 |
| 315 | are the ways that you relate to the people around you. | 你和周围的人的关系 |
| 316 | And, you know, like I said, I've never really quite fit in anywhere. | 而且,你知道,就像我说的, 我从来没有真正 完全适合任何地方。 |
| 317 | But I've always sought to find that least common denominator | 但我一直试图找到 最小的共同点 |
| 318 | to ask, you know, what does it mean to have the things that I had? | 问,你知道,它意味着什么 拥有我拥有的东西? |
| 319 | And I had a front row seat to what my life should have been. | 我有一个前排座位 我的生活应该是。 |
| 320 | I was, you know, born in the United States of America. | 我出生在美国 |
| 321 | I got to go to amazing public schools, got to get a medical education. | 我得去公立学校 接受医学教育 |
| 322 | I got to go to Oxford on a scholarship. | 我得拿奖学金去牛津大学 |
| 323 | Those are opportunities my cousins couldn't have imagined. | 那是我表弟们无法想象的机会 |
| 324 | Crazy thing about it, though, is I could go 15 minutes from where I grew up. | 疯狂的事情,虽然, 我可以去15分钟 从我长大的地方。 |
| 325 | And there were kids growing up in this city | 城里有小孩长大 |
| 326 | whose opportunity sets looked a lot more like my cousins than mine. | 他的机会更像我的表弟们 |
| 327 | And you start to think, okay, what is my responsibility to my fellow humans | 你开始思考,好吧,什么是我的责任 我的人类伙伴 |
| 328 | around understanding that I am small and insignificant in the broader eyes? | 理解我在更广阔的视线中是小而微不足道的吗? |
| 329 | And it's also a discipline. | 亦是修习. |
| 330 | It's a way of orienting your life. | 这是引导你生活的方法 |
| 331 | I know you're a devout Catholic. | 我知道你是个虔诚的天主教徒 |
| 332 | And it's those rituals that you can touch to that help to provide | 这是那些仪式 你可以触摸到 帮助提供 |
| 333 | a certain subtext of meaning, a baseline almost in the song of your life. | 你生命的歌词几乎就是基线 |
| 334 | And it's always been really meaningful for me. | 这对我一直很重要 |
| 335 | Tell me something about how that faith shapes your politics. | 告诉我一些信仰如何塑造你的政治 |
| 336 | And tell me something that is like Catholicism or Judaism specific to Islam. | 告诉我什么是天主教或犹太教 专门针对伊斯兰教。 |
| 337 | You know, there is this notion of speak the truth even if it be against yourself. | 你知道,有一个概念 说真话 即使它反对你自己。 |
| 338 | And I try to be radically honest. | 我试图完全诚实。 |
| 339 | For me, I've always tried to find the incoherence of a thing to try and see it and look at it. | 对我来说,我一直试图找到一个事物的不协调之处,试图看一看. |
| 340 | And I think I bring that to my politics every single day. | 我觉得我每天都会从政 |
| 341 | What are the inconsistencies that we hide from in our politics? | 我们在政治上隐藏的不一致之处是什么? |
| 342 | Where are the places where we're not quite consistent with what we say we want to do? | 哪里是地方 我们不完全符合 我们说我们要做什么? |
| 343 | Let's talk about those things. | 让我们谈谈那些事情。 |
| 344 | And that honesty, I think, is really, really important. | 我认为,这种诚实是真正非常重要的。 |
| 345 | There's also just a command to justice. | 亦有正法之旨. |
| 346 | There's this saying of the prophet, peace be upon him, he said, | 先知有一句谚语 愿他安息 他说 |
| 347 | I was commanded to be charitable with my neighbor so much that I thought that when I died, | 我奉命对邻居施舍 以至于我死的时候 |
| 348 | my neighbor would inherit my wealth. | 我的邻居会继承我的财富 |
| 349 | And that notion of just charity, I know it's shared by so many of the great faiths, | 我知道很多伟大的信仰都认同这种慈善理念 |
| 350 | but that sort of notion of like the responsibility that you have to the person next to you | 但那种概念 就像你对身边的人的责任 |
| 351 | with whom you share the space and the responsibility to be honest and direct, | 你应当与他同享空间,你应当秉公指挥, |
| 352 | even if you're speaking against yourself. | 即使你说话对自己不利。 |
| 353 | Those are things that I take really seriously and I try to bring to my politics. | 这些都是我认真对待的事情 我试图带给我的政治。 |
| 354 | And at the same time, you know, as a person of faith, | 同时,作为一个信仰的人, |
| 355 | you know that the beauty of this place is that you and I love our country. | 你知道这个地方的美丽 是你和我爱我们的国家。 |
| 356 | And despite the fact that your faith might be different than mine, | 尽管你的信仰可能和我不同 |
| 357 | there's a lot that we share and a few things that we don't. | 我们有很多共同之处 还有一些我们没有的东西 |
| 358 | It's amazing to me that in this country, neither your faith nor mine nor somebody else's | 我感到惊讶的是,在这个国家, 无论是你的信仰,还是我的,还是别人的 |
| 359 | gets to dictate how we live our lives. | 来决定我们的生活 |
| 360 | That's an amazing thing. | 这是一件惊人的事情。 |
| 361 | I mean, you know, my family immigrated from a place | 我的意思是,你知道,我的家人移民 从一个地方 |
| 362 | where you don't have the freedom of your speech. | 在那里你没有言论自由。 |
| 363 | And as a kid growing up as a Muslim, especially somebody who experienced 9-11 | 小时候当穆斯林长大 尤其是经历了911的人 |
| 364 | as a junior in high school, where I had to become a lot more aware | 高中时的初中生 在那里我不得不变得更清楚 |
| 365 | of what my faith identity meant for me, | 我的信仰身份对我的意义 |
| 366 | it's an amazing thing that in this country, we have the freedom of our religion | 在这个国家,我们有宗教自由 |
| 367 | and nobody gets to read their faith into the law to the exclusion of anybody else, | 没有人可以把自己的信仰 写入法律 排斥任何人, |
| 368 | whether you're a person of faith or person with no faith at all. | 无论你是一个信仰的人 还是一个完全没有信仰的人 |
| 369 | And that's a civic, that's a civic faith, a civic religion | 这是公民信仰,公民信仰 |
| 370 | that in this country, as we practice our politics, we have to cling onto. | 在这个国家,当我们实践政治时,我们必须坚持下去。 |
| 371 | That is, again, that lowest common denominator of what makes us all American. | 这也是我们美国人的最低共同标准。 |
| 372 | Let's talk about ideas of justice in politics. | 谈政治中的正义思想. |
| 373 | You ran for office in 2018, right? | 你2018年竞选公职,对吧? |
| 374 | For the first time, you were endorsed by Bernie Sanders in that race. | 在那次比赛中你第一次得到伯尼·桑德斯的认可. |
| 375 | I know you like to say, I'm a capitalist. | 我知道你喜欢说 我是个资本家 |
| 376 | You've said it already in this interview. | 你在这次采访中已经说过了 |
| 377 | Were you ever a socialist? | 你曾经是社会主义者吗? |
| 378 | No, I'm not a, I'm too much of a scientist to actually believe in any sort of ideology. | 不,我不是,我是一个科学家太多 相信任何一种意识形态。 |
| 379 | At the end of the day, any of these things are really about process, | 归根结底, 任何这些事情都是关于过程的, |
| 380 | even as a capitalist, right? | 即使是资本家,对不对? |
| 381 | I'm not a capital C capitalist. | 我不是资本家C |
| 382 | I'm a capitalist who understands that a really good way to beget the most value | 我是一个资本家,谁明白,一个真正好的方法 得到最价值 |
| 383 | is to enable people to have the basic means. | 即使人们拥有基本手段。 |
| 384 | And then if they've got a great idea and they're aware with all the work, | 然后如果他们有一个伟大的想法 他们知道所有的工作, |
| 385 | they can create really, really cool things with that. | 他们可以创造出真正, 非常酷的东西。 |
| 386 | You see it work every single day. | 你看它工作的每一天。 |
| 387 | And so I just don't do ideology. | 所以我不做意识形态。 |
| 388 | I'm a person of faith and everyone else brings evidence. | 我是信仰的人,其他人都会带证据 |
| 389 | And so there are things that seem to me to be quite obvious. | 所以有些事情在我看来是相当明显的。 |
| 390 | As a point, the idea that you should have guaranteed health care in the country, | 首先,你应该保证国内的卫生保健 |
| 391 | anybody who tells you that's anti-capitalist is not really understanding how capitalism works. | 谁告诉你这是反资本主义的 并不真正理解资本主义是如何运作的。 |
| 392 | It'd be like saying, if you want to go play football, | 这就像说, 如果你想去踢足球, |
| 393 | there are some players who are faster, some players who are bigger, | 有些玩家动作更快 有些玩家动作更大 |
| 394 | some players who are stronger, but not everybody needs pads. | 一些更强壮的玩家,但不是每个人都需要垫子. |
| 395 | No, I'm so sorry. | 不,对不起。 |
| 396 | I don't care how big, strong, fast you are. | 我不管你有多大,强壮,快 |
| 397 | Everybody gets a basic set of pads and a good helmet. | 每个人都有一套基本的垫子和一顶好头盔 |
| 398 | And then you get to go play. | 然后,你得到去游戏。 |
| 399 | And to me, health care, child care, good infrastructure, good schools, | 对我而言,医疗,儿童护理, 良好的基础设施,良好的学校, |
| 400 | those things to me are like giving a player pads so that they can go and play | 那些东西对我来说就像给一个玩家垫子 这样他们就可以去玩了 |
| 401 | and at least understand that they're not going to get like | 至少明白他们不会像 |
| 402 | catastrophically injured, God willing, in playing the game. | 上帝保佑,在游戏中遭受灾难性伤害 |
| 403 | So what do you think about the Democratic Socialists of America, | 你对美国民主社会主义者的看法如何? |
| 404 | which is a group that you've been associated with, | 你和这个团体有联系 |
| 405 | again, despite being a proud capitalist, right? | 再说一遍,尽管是个骄傲的资本家,对吧? |
| 406 | Do you think that they're generally right about things? | 你认为他们通常对事情是对的吗? |
| 407 | Do you think that they're too ideological? | 你觉得他们太意识形态了吗? |
| 408 | Again, I don't really think about them as a group. | 再说一遍,我并没有把他们看作一个团体。 |
| 409 | You know, never, you've never, you only see people, not groups. | 你知道,从来没有,你从来没有, 你只看到人,不是团体。 |
| 410 | I'm just saying like as an organization, I understand why you might want to ask me | 我只是说作为一个组织, 我明白为什么你可能想问我 |
| 411 | about my association with a group that everybody wants to fit me into. | 关于我与一个团体的联系 每个人都想让我加入。 |
| 412 | I'm not asking about your association. | 我不是问你的关联。 |
| 413 | I'm asking what do you think about them as a force in your party's politics? | 我问,你对他们作为你党的政治力量有何看法? |
| 414 | Do you think that they're a force for good? | 你觉得他们是好力量吗? |
| 415 | I think they're right about some things and I think they're not right about some things. | 我觉得他们有些事是对的 我觉得他们有些事不对 |
| 416 | Give me one thing you think they're wrong about. | 给我一件事,你认为他们错了。 |
| 417 | I think some of the like, so I'm running for US Senate. | 我觉得有些类似, 所以我竞选美国参议院。 |
| 418 | I've heard. | 我听说了 |
| 419 | Right? | 对吧? |
| 420 | And like to run for US Senate and say you want to abolish the Senate | 说你想废除参议院 |
| 421 | seems kind of inconsistent, don't you think? | 似乎有点不一致, 你不觉得吗? |
| 422 | So like, obviously there's a number of things. | 很明显,有很多事情。 |
| 423 | You've got to tear down the masters, house with the masters too. | 得拆主人,与主人同房. |
| 424 | It's also the socialist thing that I just don't agree with. | 这也是我不同意的社会主义的东西. |
| 425 | Like, I think Medicare for all is a really great way to guarantee everybody healthcare. | 我认为全民医保 是保证所有人医保的好办法 |
| 426 | Also, it's actually very highly capitalist. | 而且,它实际上是非常高度的资本主义。 |
| 427 | If you think about it, you're just saying. | 思惟如是说. |
| 428 | What is a socialist idea in healthcare that you would disagree with? | 你不同意的社会主义医疗理念是什么? |
| 429 | Just. | 刚刚。 |
| 430 | Well, it's not necessarily that I would disagree with it. | 好吧,这不一定 我不同意它。 |
| 431 | I just don't think it would work here is like, you know, we get compared to the UK. | 我只是不认为它会在这里工作 像,你知道,我们得到比较 英国。 |
| 432 | Medicare for all gets compared to the UK is not single payer. | 与英国相比, |
| 433 | It's single provider. | 单供养. |
| 434 | Right. | 对 |
| 435 | It's like every hospital is government run. | 就像每个医院都是政府管理 |
| 436 | That's not what I'm advocating for. | 非吾所主张. |
| 437 | I'm just saying that health insurance in the year of our Lord 2026 | 我只是说2026年的医疗保险 |
| 438 | doesn't have to be a product. | 不一定要是一个产品。 |
| 439 | You can just give it to everybody. | 你可以把它给每个人。 |
| 440 | And then from there, people can decide where to use their health insurance | 然后,从那里,人们可以决定 在哪里使用他们的健康保险 |
| 441 | that they get from the government. | 他们从政府那里得到的。 |
| 442 | It's actually not a government takeover of healthcare. | 这实际上不是政府接管医疗。 |
| 443 | It actually is the freeing up of a market in healthcare because right now | 实际上,它是一个市场的自由 保健,因为现在 |
| 444 | our healthcare market gets squeezed by the negotiation | 我们的医疗市场被谈判挤压 |
| 445 | between the health insurance industry and providers. | 健康保险行业和提供者之间。 |
| 446 | So what happens now is that the rate that gets set is not transparent, | 所以现在发生的情况是 被设定的比率是不透明的, |
| 447 | which by the way is in complete violation of the principles of capitalism. | 这完全违反了资本主义的原则。 |
| 448 | So we don't have capitalist healthcare at all. | 所以我们根本就没有资本主义的医疗保健。 |
| 449 | And the best way to allow every doctor or every provider to be like, | 最好的办法 让每个医生或每个提供者都喜欢, |
| 450 | hey, let me put on my shingle and see if I can compete is to make sure | 嘿,让我穿上我的鞭子 看看我能否竞争,就是确定 |
| 451 | that we hold the insurance part so that everybody gets to participate in that market | 我们拥有保险部分 这样每个人都可以参与这个市场 |
| 452 | and go and decide and shop around their health insurance wherever they want to go. | 去决定和购物 他们的健康保险,无论他们想去。 |
| 453 | If you want to see a flourishing of the healthcare system, | 如果你想看到医疗保健系统蓬勃发展 |
| 454 | pass Medicare for all and watch how many different kinds of providers | 通过全民医疗保险,看有多少不同的提供者 |
| 455 | are able then to compete. | 能够进行竞争。 |
| 456 | But right now we're seeing less and less competition | 但是,现在我们看到竞争越来越少 |
| 457 | because if you're a private practitioner, you own your own business in healthcare, | 因为如果你是私人医生, 你拥有你自己的保健业务, |
| 458 | you're not getting the same reimbursements as the big guys. | 你得到的补偿与大家伙不同。 |
| 459 | Before we go deeper into Medicare for all, | 在我们深入到全民医保之前 |
| 460 | I asked about your disagreements with the DSA. | 我问了你和DSA的分歧 |
| 461 | I want to ask about your disagreements with the former president of the United States, | 我想问问你与美国前总统的分歧 |
| 462 | President Obama. | 奥巴马总统 |
| 463 | He's endorsed you. | 他认可你 |
| 464 | He's campaigning for you. | 他在为你竞选 |
| 465 | I think this week in Michigan, in the past, you have been pretty critical of, | 我认为这周在密歇根, 过去,你一直相当批评, |
| 466 | let's say, the Obama-era Democratic Party. | 比如说,奥巴马时代的民主党。 |
| 467 | Give me that critique. | 把批评给我 |
| 468 | What was wrong with the Democrats under Obama? | 奥巴马统治下的民主党有什么问题? |
| 469 | I think there are things that we could have done more of. | 我认为有些事情我们可以做更多。 |
| 470 | I think there are things like the ACA was an amazing policy. | 我觉得有些事情像 ACA是一个惊人的政策。 |
| 471 | I'm so grateful I got to do what I did in the era post-ACA rather than before ACA. | 我很感激我做了我在ACA后时代做的事 而不是在ACA之前 |
| 472 | I would have loved to see us go further when it comes to a public option. | 我本来希望看到我们在公共选择方面更进一步。 |
| 473 | You think about there's a lot on immigration that I critiqued. | 你觉得我批评过很多移民问题 |
| 474 | War and drones. | 战争和无人机 |
| 475 | And I was clear about my critiques. | 我很清楚我的批评。 |
| 476 | People want to argue that somehow because you can critique an era or critique a president, | 人们想争辩,因为你可以批评一个时代或者批评总统, |
| 477 | that somehow you deeply disagree with him. | 不知何故,你深深地不同意他。 |
| 478 | I don't. | 我没有。 |
| 479 | I mean, President Obama did what he did, and in doing that, | 我的意思是,奥巴马总统做了他做了什么, 这样做, |
| 480 | enabled me to do what I'm doing. | 让我能做我做的事 |
| 481 | I get to do what I do because President Obama did what he did. | 我做我做的事是因为奥巴马总统做了他做的事。 |
| 482 | And my part is to say, look, where I had fair critiques, all right, | 我的角色是说,你看, 我在那里有公平的批评, 好吧, |
| 483 | you take the baton and try and build further. | 你拿起警棍,试着建设。 |
| 484 | But I also understand I'm building on the edifice he built. | 但我也明白我在他所建的建筑之上 |
| 485 | And also, he was doing it at a different time than the one that I'm doing it in. | 而且,他做它 在一个不同的时间, 我这样做。 |
| 486 | And so it's impossible to disaggregate what I'm hoping to get done in the United States Senate | 所以无法分解我在美国参议院的希望 |
| 487 | from the leadership that he showed in the times in which he showed it. | 在他所展示的时代, |
| 488 | And then there are some things he did that were masterful. | 然后他做了一些很厉害的事 |
| 489 | 你想着JCPOA。 | |
| 490 | We're at war with Iran because Donald Trump, | 我们和伊朗开战 因为唐纳德·特朗普 |
| 491 | with the lack of general nuance wisdom and intellectual capacity that he has, | 由于他缺乏一般的细微智慧和智力能力, |
| 492 | decided to tear up that agreement only to take us to war | 决定撕毁协议 只为了带我们去打仗 |
| 493 | that everybody could have told you was going to be almost impossible to pull out of. | 每个人都可以告诉你 几乎不可能退出。 |
| 494 | Because, of course, the Strait of Hormuz. | 因为,当然,霍尔木兹海峡。 |
| 495 | And here we are paying more in gas, more in groceries and paying our taxes, | 在这里,我们支付更多的汽油, 更多的杂货和我们的税收, |
| 496 | losing the lives of our servicemen and women over a war we never had to fight. | 牺牲我们士兵和女人的生命 因为一场我们从来就不用打仗的战争 |
| 497 | Your critique of the Obama era I think was shared by a lot of people in Joe Biden's White House. | 你对奥巴马时代的批评 我认为乔·拜登白宫的很多人都认同 |
| 498 | And if you look back at especially the first year or so of the Biden administration, | 如果你回顾拜登执政的第一年 |
| 499 | there was a sense that they were going to go bigger and do more than Obama did. | 有一种感觉,他们会 变得更大,做比奥巴马做的更多。 |
| 500 | They did a bigger stimulus. | 他们做了更大的刺激。 |
| 501 | They had lots of new spending on new programs. | 他们有很多新的支出 在新的方案。 |
| 502 | They had a more liberal immigration policy in certain ways. | 他们在某些方面有比较宽松的移民政策. |
| 503 | Donald Trump won in 2024 after the Biden presidency. | 唐纳德·特朗普在拜登总统后于2024年获胜. |
| 504 | Was it democratic policy or democratic politicians that lost? | 是民主政策还是民主政治家的失败? |
| 505 | I'm going to say it's democratic politics. | 我要说的是民主政治 |
| 506 | Let me explain why. | 让我解释为什么。 |
| 507 | I think we have, in this era, failed to understand the nature of public communication. | 我认为,在这个时代,我们未能理解公共交流的性质。 |
| 508 | And part of that is you look at the Inflation Reduction Act. | 部分内容是看《降低通货膨胀法》。 |
| 509 | It's a basket of really important policy that nobody fully understands or can capture. | 这是一篮真正重要的政策,没有人能完全理解或抓住. |
| 510 | And part of what you're doing as a politician is you're asking the public | 作为政治家,你正在问公众 |
| 511 | to empower you with the means to achieve a certain policy end. | 赋予你实现某种政策目的的手段。 |
| 512 | And then ideally you achieve it, take it back to the public and say, | 然后理想的你实现了它, 把它带回公众说, |
| 513 | here's what we did. | 这是我们所做的。 |
| 514 | Now I want your support to do this other thing. | 现在我要你们支持做别的事 |
| 515 | The problem with the way that we've often done politics as Democrats is we do these | 我们作为民主党人经常做政治的问题 就是我们做这些 |
| 516 | big omnibus bills that we don't really communicate about. | 大型的总括性法案 我们并不真正沟通。 |
| 517 | And so it's a lot. | 故谓之多. |
| 518 | And in the minds of the public, it's so little, but it's so much. | 及於大众智中,虽微微微,但多不胜数. |
| 519 | And so I think that's part and parcel of where our failure was. | 所以我认为这就是我们失败之处 |
| 520 | The other part is, and I've been very clear about this, | 另一个部分是, 我一直非常清楚这一点, |
| 521 | is the corruption of our aims because of the power of corporations in our politics. | 是因为公司在政治中的力量 导致我们的目标腐败 |
| 522 | I think in the 1980s, when you saw Reaganism defeat unions, | 我认为在20世纪80年代, 当你看到里根主义击败工会, |
| 523 | Democrats went to corporations to support their campaigns as well. | 民主党人也去公司支持他们的竞选。 |
| 524 | So when you have Republicans funded by corporations | 所以,当你有共和党 由公司资助 |
| 525 | and Democrats funded by corporations, at the end of the day, corporations win. | 和民主党 由公司资助, 最终,公司获胜。 |
| 526 | And so if you can't talk about what you want to do for the working people | 所以如果你不能谈你想为工人做什么 |
| 527 | against the very people who are disempowering working people, | 以否认工作者者发誓, |
| 528 | you've got to find something else to talk about. | 你得找点别的事来谈 |
| 529 | And so we ended up talking about all kinds of other issues | 所以我们最后谈了其他各种问题 |
| 530 | that opened up these cultural wars. | 打开了这些文化战争。 |
| 531 | But politics isn't about cultural war. | 但政治与文化战争无关. |
| 532 | Politics is about the allocation of scarce resources. | 政治是关于稀缺资源的分配。 |
| 533 | And so there's a reason I and a lot of us don't take corporate money | 所以我和很多人不收公司钱是有原因的 |
| 534 | because we believe that the responsibility that we have | 因为我们相信我们的责任 |
| 535 | is to fight for working people. | 就是为劳动人民而战 |
| 536 | And you can't serve two masters. | 而不能侍两师. |
| 537 | Isn't there a simpler explanation? | 没有更简单的解释吗? |
| 538 | You mentioned the Inflation Reduction Act under Joe Biden. | 你提到乔·拜登的"减通货膨胀法案" |
| 539 | And you're suggesting it wasn't adequately explained. | 而且你暗示它没有被充分解释。 |
| 540 | But the reality was that inflation itself rose under Joe Biden | 但现实是通货膨胀本身在乔·拜登之下上升 |
| 541 | to heights not seen since, I think, the early 1980s. | 从80年代开始就没见过的高度 |
| 542 | And that was seen as a consequence of Biden's policy. | 这被认为是拜登政策的结果. |
| 543 | Or on the culture war and cultural issues. | 或论文化战争和文化问题. |
| 544 | We want to call immigration a cultural issue. | 我们要将移民称为文化问题。 |
| 545 | The Biden administration, despite saying that they intended | 拜登政府尽管说他们想 |
| 546 | to secure the border and everything else, | 保证边境和其他一切安全 |
| 547 | presided over one of the largest waves of illegal, | 主持最大的非法浪潮之一, |
| 548 | unauthorized immigration in recent American history. | 美国近代史上未经许可的移民 |
| 549 | Those weren't just failures of communication, right? | 这不仅仅是沟通失败,对不对? |
| 550 | Those were failures of policy. | 这些是政策的失败。 |
| 551 | Those were policy, no question. | 这些都是政策,毫无疑问。 |
| 552 | When it came to the southern border, that was a failure of policy. | 谈到南部边界时,这是政策上的失败。 |
| 553 | No question about that. | 毫无疑问。 |
| 554 | When it comes to inflation, I think that's a much more complicated picture. | 关于通货膨胀,我认为这是一个复杂得多的情况。 |
| 555 | A lot of what kicked off the inflationary cycle is policies under Donald Trump. | 通胀周期的推波助澜主要是唐纳德·特朗普的政策. |
| 556 | Of course, because of a failure to contain a pandemic | 当然,因为不能控制大流行 |
| 557 | that could have been far better managed. | 本来可以做得更好 |
| 558 | And you look at the lag time between that, right? | 你看这之间的滞后时间,对不对? |
| 559 | That level of inflation is unacceptable. | 这种通货膨胀水平是不可接受的。 |
| 560 | You look at what Donald Trump is doing now, though. | 你看唐纳德·特朗普现在在做什么 |
| 561 | He's inflicting unforced errors in a tariff war and a war in Iran. | 他在伊朗的关税战争和战争中制造了非强制性错误. |
| 562 | There's another piece of it, though, is also there's a hypocrisy | 不过,还有一块是虚伪的 |
| 563 | when it comes to democratic values and democratic policymaking, | 在民主价值观和民主决策方面, |
| 564 | particularly when it comes to foreign policy. | 特别是在外交政策方面。 |
| 565 | The mismanagement of Gaza, the funding of a genocide. | 加沙管理不善,为种族灭绝提供资金。 |
| 566 | I think these things under the Biden administration | 我认为这些东西 在拜登政府之下 |
| 567 | became a blaring red light around being able to say, | 变成一盏红灯, |
| 568 | well, if you were for human rights and you're for international law, | 好吧,如果你是人权 而你是国际法, |
| 569 | you cannot be subsidizing a genocide with our tax dollars. | 你不能用我们的税收来补贴种族灭绝 |
| 570 | So I think you take that whole basket and people look at that and you say, | 所以,我认为你拿了整个篮子 人们看着它,你说, |
| 571 | well, there's a lot of failure there, but we can and must do better. | 好吧,那里有很多失败, 但我们可以而且必须做得更好。 |
| 572 | Now, look, the problem with our political system, of course, | 现在,你看,我们的政治制度的问题,当然, |
| 573 | is that you normally have one of two options. | 您通常有两种选择之一。 |
| 574 | Donald Trump, in so many ways, created so many of the circumstances | 唐纳德·特朗普在许多方面创造了如此多的情况 |
| 575 | that Joe Biden was trying to clean up and in so many ways has made them worse. | 乔·拜登试图清理 在许多方面使他们更加糟糕 |
| 576 | And you look at where we are now. | 你看我们现在在哪 |
| 577 | You look at the bond market going topsy turvy. | 你看看债券市场会变质 |
| 578 | You look at the fact that he thinks that AI, we should just let it rip | 你看,他觉得AI,我们应该让它撕裂。 |
| 579 | and we're on the cusp of recursive self-improvement that could be disastrous. | 而我们正面临 递归自我改善 可能是灾难性的。 |
| 580 | You look at the big ugly bill and the fact that he's pulling health care | 你看看那张丑陋的大帐单 还有他拉医保的事实 |
| 581 | from the poorest folks to give a tax cut to the richest people. | 给最富有的人减税 |
| 582 | All that is extremely inflationary. | 所有这一切都是极端的通货膨胀。 |
| 583 | You look at the war in Iran. | 你看伊朗的战争。 |
| 584 | You look at the tariff war and you see a failure of leadership, | 你看看关税战争,你看到领导失败, |
| 585 | not because the guy is trying, | 不是因为那家伙在努力 |
| 586 | but because the guy has basically given up on actually trying. | 但因为那个家伙基本上放弃了尝试 |
| 587 | But in running against the Republican Party, | 但是,在竞选共和党, |
| 588 | in running against Donald Trump, right? | 和唐纳德·特朗普竞选,对吧? |
| 589 | You have your own policy agenda and it's reasonable for voters | 你有自己的政策议程 对选民来说是合理的 |
| 590 | to look at what happened under the Biden administration | 看看拜登政府下发生的事 |
| 591 | and ask, are we going to repeat the same story? | 问,我们要重复同样的故事吗? |
| 592 | Well, let's just take two. | 好吧,让我们只是两个。 |
| 593 | We'll take two issues and start with Medicare for all, your favorite issue. | 我们先谈两个问题 然后从医保开始 你最喜欢的问题 |
| 594 | I've heard it many times, the campaign rallies, in the last couple of days. | 我听过很多次,竞选集会, 在过去几天。 |
| 595 | Medicare for all is a very expensive program. | 全民医保是一个非常昂贵的方案. |
| 596 | How do you pay for it without... | 没有... |
| 597 | American health care. | 美国医疗. |
| 598 | Without... American health care is very expensive. | 没有... 美国的医疗保健非常昂贵. |
| 599 | So Ross, let's just step back. | 罗斯,我们退后 |
| 600 | You're a smart guy, right? | 你是个聪明人,对吧? |
| 601 | American health care is insanely expensive. | 美国的医疗保健非常昂贵。 |
| 602 | When they're flattering me, yeah. | 当他们恭维我,是的。 |
| 603 | 19 cents on the dollar for every dollar spent in our economy. | 我国经济每花费一美元,一毛九美元. |
| 604 | It's attributable to a third of all bankruptcies, | 全部破产的三分之一 |
| 605 | attributable to health care. | 医疗费用。 |
| 606 | We carry $225 billion in medical debt. | 我们背负着2 250亿美元的医疗债务。 |
| 607 | This system is not working. | 这个系统不起作用。 |
| 608 | And the idea that the frame of reference on health care | 关于保健的参考框架的想法 |
| 609 | ought to be Joe Biden's policies, who famously did very little on health care, | 应该是乔・拜登的政策, 著名的在保健方面做很少, |
| 610 | seems to me to be a little bit inconsistent. | 在我看来有点不一致 |
| 611 | The frame of reference on health care ought to be the health care system we have right now, | 关于保健的参考框架应该是我们现在拥有的保健系统, |
| 612 | which is about to be made a whole lot worse | 这将会更糟糕 |
| 613 | because you're about to find a whole lot of people kicked off their Medicaid. | 因为你要找到很多人 放弃他们的医疗补助。 |
| 614 | And when that happens, what's going to happen is this, adverse selection. | 而当它发生的时候,会发生的是这个, 不利的选择。 |
| 615 | You're going to see a death spiral in the insurance industry. | 你会看到保险业的死亡螺旋式 |
| 616 | We already saw our premiums go up 15% last year. | 我们已经看到我们的保险费去年上涨了15%。 |
| 617 | They're going to go up even more than that now. | 他们现在要上台了 |
| 618 | Why? | 为什么? |
| 619 | Because when you kick enough people off of Medicaid, | 因为当你把足够多的人踢出医疗补助 |
| 620 | the hospitals have to figure out where they get that money. | 医院必须找出他们从哪里得到的钱。 |
| 621 | What are they going to do? | 他们怎么办? |
| 622 | They're going to pass that cost on to insured patients. | 他们会把费用转嫁给被保险的病人 |
| 623 | Those insurance companies are going to pass that cost back into the form of premiums. | 这些保险公司会把这笔费用转回保险费的形式。 |
| 624 | You're going to see premiums go up, | 你会看到保险费上涨, |
| 625 | and more people are going to get priced out of health care because of it, | 更多的人会因此得到 医疗价格, |
| 626 | which is going to kick off this absurd spiral. | 这将会打破这个荒谬的螺旋 |
| 627 | So things are going to get a lot worse. | 所以事情会变得更糟。 |
| 628 | Medicare for all is about recognizing that in this moment, | 全民医保就是承认此刻 |
| 629 | we don't actually need to continue to allow these health insurance companies | 我们实际上不需要继续 允许这些健康保险公司 |
| 630 | to dictate what happens in our health care. | 来决定我们医疗保健的结局 |
| 631 | We can guarantee it for everybody. | 我们可以保证给大家 |
| 632 | We can take 20% off the top of all of the cost of health care | 我们可以从医疗费用中扣除20% |
| 633 | by addressing all of the $10 million salaries for health insurance CEOs | 解决所有1 000万美元健康保险首席执行官的薪金问题 |
| 634 | and address the problem and guarantee everybody health care in the process. | 并解决问题,保障每个人在这一过程中的卫生保健。 |
| 635 | But the centers of cost in American health care | 但美国医疗成本中心 |
| 636 | are not just the insurance companies. | 不只是保险公司 |
| 637 | And the insurance companies themselves play a very unpopular but real role | 而保险公司本身也扮演着非常不受欢迎但真实的角色. |
| 638 | in disciplining health care spending, saying they won't cover certain things. | 在监管医疗开支, 说它们不会覆盖某些东西。 |
| 639 | Centers of costs also include things that are popular. | 成本中心还包括受欢迎的东西. |
| 640 | People love hospitals. | 人们喜欢医院。 |
| 641 | They love their doctors. | 他们爱他们的医生。 |
| 642 | American doctors are very well paid by international standards. | 美国医生按国际标准薪水很高. |
| 643 | American hospitals make a lot of money. | 美国医院赚了很多钱 |
| 644 | Medicare for all basically says, | 人人都有医疗保险,基本上说, |
| 645 | we're going to take this very expensive system | 我们要用这个昂贵的系统 |
| 646 | and we're going to push a lot more money into it. | 我们要把更多的钱投入其中。 |
| 647 | And we promise your standard of care won't change, right? | 我们保证你的护理标准不会改变 对吧? |
| 648 | I just think that ends up being a very expensive proposition. | 我只是觉得这最终是一个非常昂贵的建议。 |
| 649 | And I just want you to tell me how you're going to pay for it. | 我只是想你告诉我 你将如何支付它。 |
| 650 | So, as you know, I want to tax billionaires their wealth. | 所以,你知道,我想对亿万富翁的财富征税。 |
| 651 | As you know, I tax billionaires about 8%, right? | 如你所知,我对亿万富翁征税8%,对吧? |
| 652 | We as a society agree that it's probably better | 我们社会都同意,这样可能更好 |
| 653 | to have an economy that provides everybody basic health care | 拥有向所有人提供基本保健的经济; |
| 654 | than one where a billionaire can make an extra billion dollars. | 而不是一个亿万富翁能赚更多亿元的人 |
| 655 | You're returning, what, $4.65 trillion back to the economy. | 你回来,什么,4.65万亿回 经济。 |
| 656 | You can use that to subsidize a lot of the cost of health care. | 你可以用它来补贴医疗费用。 |
| 657 | Now, if you have the choice between paying an insurance company a premium | 如果你可以选择给保险公司付保险费 |
| 658 | to have to pay a deductible on the back end of that, | 必须在后端支付扣除额, |
| 659 | or being able to pay FICA a touch more for health care you won't lose | 或能给FICA多点医疗费 |
| 660 | when you lose your job or turn 65 or get married or get divorced, | 当你失去工作或65岁 或结婚或离婚, |
| 661 | that is ultimately going to be less expensive. | 这最终会降低成本。 |
| 662 | Which do you choose? | 你选哪一个? |
| 663 | I think the American public would rather have that durable health care that costs less. | 我认为美国公众更希望有 花费更少的持久保健。 |
| 664 | The other thing I'll tell you is this. | 还有一件事我要告诉你 |
| 665 | And do you think that that... | 你觉得... |
| 666 | And the other thing I'll tell you this, | 还有一件事我要告诉你 |
| 667 | you talked about the disciplining of the costs. | 你说过要控制成本 |
| 668 | Health insurance does not discipline the cost. | 健康保险不约束费用。 |
| 669 | We created all of these out-of-pocket costs. | 我们创造了所有这些自付费用。 |
| 670 | Effort to push more of that cost back onto everyday people | 努力把更多的成本 重新推给日常的人 |
| 671 | in the form of a deductible and a copay | 以可扣税和共同支付的形式 |
| 672 | because, famously, the insurance companies don't actually want to press down. | 因为,有名的,保险公司 其实不想压下去。 |
| 673 | And so what's happened is that you actually don't have any payer big enough | 事情是这样的,其实你没有足够大的付款人 |
| 674 | to negotiate back down. | 谈判后退。 |
| 675 | So what would happen? | 那会发生什么? |
| 676 | Pass the Medicare for All. | 通过全民医保。 |
| 677 | Medicare becomes the payer for most. | 医疗保险成为大多数的付款者。 |
| 678 | I don't want to take away anybody's private health insurance, | 我不想抢走任何人的私人健康保险 |
| 679 | but everybody's covered. | 但每个人都被覆盖。 |
| 680 | It's like public school, right? | 这就像公立学校,对不对? |
| 681 | Everybody can go to public school even if you want to pay for a private option. | 每个人都可以上公立学校,即使你想支付私人选择。 |
| 682 | And it now has the power. | 它现在有力量了 |
| 683 | It will immediately take up the cost. | 它将立即承担费用。 |
| 684 | So Medicare reimbursements have to go up substantially | 所以医疗保障费要大幅上涨 |
| 685 | from where they are right now | 从他们现在的位置 |
| 686 | because you have to pay for the cost of the system as it is. | 因为你必须支付系统的费用 |
| 687 | But over time, Medicare can reduce the speed at which prices are going up. | 但随着时间的推移,医疗保险可以降低价格上涨的速度。 |
| 688 | And that's something that no other payer can do in our current system. | 在目前的体系中,这是其他付款人无法做到的。 |
| 689 | So if you actually want to address the rising prices, | 如果你真的想解决价格上涨的问题 |
| 690 | you don't create a system that allows any insurance company | 您不创建允许任何保险公司的系统 |
| 691 | to just tell you that you're insured when there's nothing sure about it | 只是告诉你,你被保险 当没有什么确定 |
| 692 | except if you're going to end up paying more. | 除非你最后会付更多钱 |
| 693 | What you do is you actually cover everybody | 你所做的是,你实际上覆盖所有人 |
| 694 | and you create an incentive to stop the speed at which the prices are increasing. | 你创造了一种激励 阻止价格上升的速度。 |
| 695 | But all of this is happening against a backdrop | 但这一切都是在背景之下发生的 |
| 696 | where the U.S. population, like every developed world population, is aging. | 在那里,美国的人口, 像每一个发达的世界人口, 正在老龄化。 |
| 697 | We have fewer younger taxpayers paying into the system. | 我们向这个系统付款的年轻纳税人较少。 |
| 698 | And existing programs, Medicare and Social... | 和现有的计划,医疗保险和社会... |
| 699 | Notwithstanding all of your efforts... | 尽管你做了这么多努力... |
| 700 | Notwithstanding, you have children too. | 尽管如此,你也有孩子。 |
| 701 | We've both tried to address it. | 我们都试图解决它。 |
| 702 | But Medicare and Social Security, as they exist, | 但是,医疗保障和社会保障,如果它们存在, |
| 703 | programs that you obviously definitionally support, | 您显然在定义上支持的程序, |
| 704 | are themselves likely to run out of money at a certain point. | 它们本身在某一时刻可能耗尽资金。 |
| 705 | I just think in the story you tell, what happens is even if you find | 我只是觉得在你说的故事里 即便你发现 |
| 706 | a source of taxable income from the wealthy and plow it into the system, | 富人应纳税的收入来源, |
| 707 | that money ends up propping up the existing system. | 这笔钱最终支撑了现有的制度。 |
| 708 | And you do to go beyond it to do what you want to do. | 则行于外而行于内. |
| 709 | You are in a zone of middle-class tax increases that are... | 你正在一个中产阶级增税区... |
| 710 | Here's my question to you. | 我问你个问题 |
| 711 | This is actually the real issue. | 这实际上是真正的问题。 |
| 712 | You can't ask me questions. | 你不能问我的问题。 |
| 713 | Well, it's a conversation. | 嗯,这是一个谈话。 |
| 714 | You told me we're going to have a conversation. | 你说过我们要谈谈的 |
| 715 | I did. | 没错 |
| 716 | How expensive is having kids? | 生孩子有多贵? |
| 717 | You have five of them. | 你有五个 |
| 718 | How expensive is it? | 有多贵? |
| 719 | I don't know if my employers are watching this show. | 我不知道我的雇主有没有看这个节目 |
| 720 | It's considerably expensive. | 相当贵. |
| 721 | It's very expensive, right? | 很贵的,对吧? |
| 722 | Does your partner work? | 你的搭档工作吗? |
| 723 | She does, yes. | 是的,没错。 |
| 724 | And so that means that you probably had to pay $2,000 per kid for child care. | 所以这意味着你可能需要支付2,000美元 每个孩子的保育。 |
| 725 | Think about the albatross that sits on our economy. | 想想坐落在我们经济上的信天翁 |
| 726 | Think about the premium that you have to pay for health care for all of your kids. | 想一想,你必须付出的保险费 为您所有的孩子的保健。 |
| 727 | And I'm just going to say I'm about to walk into a room full of very young people | 我只想说 我要走进一个充满年轻人的房间 |
| 728 | who are looking at the future and saying, | 他们注视着未来, |
| 729 | there is no possible way I could possibly have a kid. | 我不可能有一个孩子 |
| 730 | So if the issue in our country is stagnation when it comes to the capacity to have children, | 所以,如果我国的问题是 停滞,当涉及到生育能力, |
| 731 | the question we really ought to ask ourselves is, | 我们真正应该问自己的问题是, |
| 732 | how do you make it easier to have kids? | 你怎么让孩子更容易? |
| 733 | So Ross, how do you make it easier to have kids? | 罗斯,你怎么让孩子更容易? |
| 734 | Maybe we should stop making it so expensive to have kids, | 也许我们应该停止让 它如此昂贵有孩子, |
| 735 | which means that if the only argument that we have about America is | 这意味着,如果我们对美国的唯一论点是 |
| 736 | we can't possibly do anything to make it easier to have kids, | 我们不可能做任何事情 来让孩子更容易, |
| 737 | we are going to have a race to the bottom. | 我们要进行一场比赛 |
| 738 | And I get it. | и笵 |
| 739 | A lot of people are going to say, well, we're going to ban abortion | 很多人会说 我们要禁止堕胎 |
| 740 | and we're going to tell people it's a good thing to have kids. | 我们要告诉大家有孩子是件好事 |
| 741 | Yeah, that doesn't really quite work. | 是啊,这不太有效。 |
| 742 | What tends to happen when you ban abortions, people just get abortions. | 当你禁止堕胎时,人们只会堕胎。 |
| 743 | They're just not safe. | 他们只是不安全。 |
| 744 | But the whole, I appreciate that. | 但总的来说,我很感激。 |
| 745 | You need to be invested in the means of making it easier to have children. | 你需要投资 使孩子更容易。 |
| 746 | That means you have to address the rising costs of having kids. | 这就是说,你必须解决 不断上升的生育成本。 |
| 747 | So if your argument is that we can't have child care, | 所以,如果你的论点是 我们不能有孩子照顾, |
| 748 | we can't have health care, we can't subsidize housing, | 我们不能有医疗保健, 我们不能补贴住房, |
| 749 | we can't do these things, do not be surprised when all of a sudden | 我们不能做这些事情,不要惊讶 当突然 |
| 750 | we age past the point at which we are viable. | 我们的年纪已经超过了我们生存的地步 |
| 751 | I'm trying to address that problem and I've got my solutions for it. | 我在努力解决这个问题,我已经有了解决办法。 |
| 752 | The party that wants to tell me that they're pro-Natalist, | 那个想告诉我他们是亲纳塔利主义者的政党 |
| 753 | their solution is let's cut taxes for the billionaires and let's go to wars. | 他们的解决方案是,让我们为亿万富翁减税,让我们去打仗。 |
| 754 | We have no business fighting and somehow if we rub two sticks together, | 我们没有生意上的争斗 不知何故,如果我们一起擦两根棍子, |
| 755 | we're going to get people to want to have kids. | 我们要让人们想要孩子 |
| 756 | It's not serious. | 亦不严重. |
| 757 | So I'm just trying to be serious about what the problem is. | 所以我只是想认真对待问题所在。 |
| 758 | And I think the problem is we have made it too expensive. | 我认为问题在于,我们使它过于昂贵。 |
| 759 | And if we cannot make it cheaper, do not be surprised when people don't have kids. | 如果我们不能让它更便宜, 不要惊讶,当人们没有孩子。 |
| 760 | Immigration. | 移民 |
| 761 | You mentioned that you support abolishing ICE. | 你说你支持废除ICE |
| 762 | You have also said just now that the Biden administration border policy was a failure. | 你刚才还说拜登政府的边境政策失败了 |
| 763 | I think this is one example of a larger reality | 我认为这是一个更大的现实的例子 |
| 764 | where you have a lot of Democratic politicians right now telling voters | 现在有很多民主政治人物 告诉选民 |
| 765 | that yes, mistakes were made in the Biden presidency, | 是的,拜登总统犯了错误, |
| 766 | but don't worry, this time we're going to secure the border | 不过别担心 这次我们要保住边境 |
| 767 | even while we're getting rid of the agency that does interior enforcement. | 即使我们摆脱了负责内部执法的机构 |
| 768 | Why should voters trust the Democratic party with immigration policy | 选民为什么要相信民主党的移民政策 |
| 769 | even if they dislike ICE or dislike Donald Trump after what happened under Biden? | 即使他们不喜欢ICE 或者不喜欢唐纳德·特朗普 在拜登下发生的事? |
| 770 | Well, take a look what we have now. | 看看我们现在有什么 |
| 771 | Do we like what we have now? | 我们喜欢现在的状况吗? |
| 772 | Do we like the idea that ICE is running around shooting people in the face or the back of the head, | 我们喜欢ICE到处乱射人脸或头部后部的想法吗? |
| 773 | shooting at the cars where there are five-year-old children? | 在有5岁儿童的汽车上开枪? |
| 774 | Is that working? | 有用吗? |
| 775 | So I rather think of this as being iterative. | 所以我更认为这是迭代。 |
| 776 | You and I both well know that the agency that enforces the border is not ICE. | 你和我都知道 边境执法机构不是ICE |
| 777 | That is Customs and Border Protection. | 这就是海关和边境保护。 |
| 778 | So I think we can secure the border, | 所以我想我们可以保证边境的安全 |
| 779 | we can invest in that ability to keep it secure, | 我们可以投入这种能力来保证它的安全, |
| 780 | and we can go back to a time when we had something more like INS | 我们可以回到一个 更像INS的时代 |
| 781 | that was able to enforce immigration policy without shooting people in the face. | 这可以执行移民政策,而不会向人们开枪。 |
| 782 | Why didn't the Biden administration enforce the border? | 为什么拜登政府不执行边界? |
| 783 | What was the problem? | 有什么问题? |
| 784 | I think the politics of it at the time were complicated. | 我认为当时的政治是复杂的. |
| 785 | I think you had- | 我觉得你... |
| 786 | Complicated by what? | 复杂什么? |
| 787 | I mean complicated by a lot of advocacy, right? | 我是指很多宣传都复杂了 对吧? |
| 788 | And I think we've learned a lesson. | 我认为我们学到了一个教训。 |
| 789 | And I also think that it's important for us to realize that | 我也认为我们必须认识到 |
| 790 | the idea that politicians don't learn from what comes before them | 政客不会从他们面前学到什么 |
| 791 | because it was done by a different party is kind of ridiculous, right? | 因为它是由不同的政党做的 有点荒谬,对不对? |
| 792 | There are things that some Republicans have gotten right. | 有些共和党人已经说对了 |
| 793 | It's just that they also get a lot of things wrong. | 只是他们也会犯很多错误 |
| 794 | So learn from the things that they get right and fix the things that they got wrong. | 因此从他们得到的正确事物中学习,并修补他们得到的错误事物. |
| 795 | So do you think the Trump administration has gotten border enforcement right? | 你认为特朗普政府 已经得到了边境执法的权利? |
| 796 | I think there are ways to do border enforcement that borrow from the broader goals | 我认为有办法 边境执法 从更广泛的目标借款 |
| 797 | without doing it in contraposition to a lot of our highest ideals around human rights. | 不这样做违背了我们许多关于人权的最高理想。 |
| 798 | You can humanely enforce the border. | 你可以人道地执行边界。 |
| 799 | I think the problem with the Trump administration is that most of what they do is inhumane, | 我认为川普政府的问题在于 他们所做的大多数都是不人道的 |
| 800 | whether it's ICE enforcement, whether it's the border. | 是否是ICE的执法,是否是边界. |
| 801 | But your party, I watched the 2020 primary, | 但你的派对 我看过2020年的初选 |
| 802 | your party decided that border enforcement in general was inhumane. | 您所在的党派认为 边境执法是不人道的 |
| 803 | And we got that wrong. | 我们搞错了 |
| 804 | Okay. | 摆 |
| 805 | One more social cultural issues question. | 还有一个社会文化问题 |
| 806 | We talked earlier about your faith, about Islam. | 我们刚才谈到你的信仰和伊斯兰教。 |
| 807 | A lot of Muslims have, like a lot of Christians, | 很多穆斯林像很多基督徒一样, |
| 808 | have traditionalist conservative positions on issues like abortion, same-sex marriage, | 在堕胎、同性婚姻等问题上有传统保守的立场, |
| 809 | transgenderism. | 变性 |
| 810 | I've had Michigan Democrats tell me that Donald Trump made inroads | 我已经让密歇根州民主党人告诉我 唐纳德·特朗普有进展了 |
| 811 | with Muslim American voters in this state on those issues. | 和这个州的美国穆斯林选民讨论这些问题。 |
| 812 | Do you feel any tension between your faith and being part of | 你是否觉得你的信仰和成为 |
| 813 | and a champion of a very socially liberal and culturally liberal party? | 和一个非常社会自由和文化自由的政党的拥护者? |
| 814 | See, this is the irony of the Trump line of attack on me, | 这是特朗普攻击我的讽刺 |
| 815 | which is like, he's both an Islamist and a socialist. | 他既是伊斯兰主义者,又是社会主义者 |
| 816 | I'm like, well, you know, I'm a constitutionalist. | 我很喜欢,嗯,你知道, 我是个宪政主义者。 |
| 817 | And under the constitution, I think rights are rights are rights are rights are rights. | 根据宪法,我认为权利就是权利,权利就是权利。 |
| 818 | The minute you assent to government taking anybody's rights, | 一旦你同意政府拿走任何人的权利 |
| 819 | whether you use them or you don't, | 无论你是否使用它们, |
| 820 | you are assenting to government taking everybody's rights. | 你同意政府剥夺每个人的权利 |
| 821 | And I believe in rights. | 我相信权利。 |
| 822 | And even though somebody might use rights that you don't understand, | 即使有人可能会使用你不明白的权利 |
| 823 | you never mean to use yourself, | 你从来不想利用自己 |
| 824 | you still got to show up and fight for those rights. | 你还得露面争取这些权利 |
| 825 | And that's the thing about this moment. | 这才是这个时刻 |
| 826 | I think it is a responsibility for us to stand up against the risk | 我认为我们有责任面对风险 |
| 827 | of government making incursions on any of our rights | 侵犯我们任何权利的政府 |
| 828 | to build the kind of continuum, the kind of coalition | 来建立这种连续体 那种联盟 |
| 829 | where any of us and all of us who have our rights at risk | 在那里,我们中的任何人和我们中所有的权利都受到威胁 |
| 830 | are standing up and fighting for all of our rights. | 为了我们所有的权利而战 |
| 831 | And I think this is an important responsibility. | 我认为这是一项重要的责任。 |
| 832 | So I, in conversations with folks in the Muslim community, | 所以我在和穆斯林社区的人谈话时 |
| 833 | conversations with folks in the LGBTQ community, | 和LGBTQ社区的人交谈 |
| 834 | the point I always make is to say, listen, | 我总想说的是 听着 |
| 835 | I don't care whether or not you will ever use a right that you were fighting for. | 我不管你是否会利用你争取的权利 |
| 836 | Understand that a failure to show up and fight for that right | 要知道,没有出现 和争取这一权利 |
| 837 | is a failure to show up and fight for your own. | 是无法现身 为自己而战 |
| 838 | So whether people are trying to take your right, | 所以,不管人们 试图取你的右, |
| 839 | put your face on the ground 35 times a day in a mosque, | 每天在清真寺里露脸35次 |
| 840 | or 34 times a day in a mosque, | 或者每天在清真寺里住34次, |
| 841 | or people are taking away your right to love who you love, | 或者人们正在夺走你爱的人的权利 |
| 842 | I think we all got to come together and say, no, no, no, | 我想我们都得一起说 不 不 不 |
| 843 | we are not going to allow government to take rights | 我们不会让政府拥有权利 |
| 844 | because that's what the constitution protects. | 因为这是宪法保护的 |
| 845 | Is there any area where, as a religious Muslim, | 是否有任何地区,作为一个宗教穆斯林, |
| 846 | in a party that has a lot of secular voters, | 在一个拥有大量世俗选民的政党, |
| 847 | you think secular liberalism gets something wrong? | 你觉得世俗自由主义有问题吗? |
| 848 | As a matter of civic life, | 作为一个公民生活的问题, |
| 849 | I stand for folks' rights under the constitution. | 我支持宪法赋予人们的权利。 |
| 850 | I live my life a particular way, | 我过着特殊的生活 |
| 851 | but I love that I get the choice of doing that, | 但我喜欢得到选择 |
| 852 | and that other people get the choice of doing what they choose to do. | 而其他人得到的选择 做他们选择做什么。 |
| 853 | And I think that's the beauty of this country. | 我认为这就是这个国家的美丽。 |
| 854 | And that's exactly it. | 就是这样 |
| 855 | So that's a no? | 所以,这是不? |
| 856 | You don't think there's anywhere where cultural liberalism goes wrong? | 你不觉得哪里有文化自由主义出错的地方吗? |
| 857 | No, but see, this is the problem that I think this is where you and I have slippage. | 不,但你看,这是问题 我认为这是 在那里你和我有滑坡。 |
| 858 | You keep talking about cultural liberalism, | 你一直在谈论文化自由主义 |
| 859 | and I'm talking about constitutional rights. | 我说的是宪法权利 |
| 860 | Culture is about choices that people ought to make. | 文化是人们应该做出的选择。 |
| 861 | Constitutional rights are about the ability to make those choices. | 宪法权利在于作出这些选择的能力。 |
| 862 | I will always fight for the ability to make choices, | 我将永远为做出选择的能力而奋斗 |
| 863 | to live who you are. | 过着你的生活 |
| 864 | But I think at the end of the day, | 但我想在最后的一天, |
| 865 | the question of culture and the question of politics are separate. | 文化问题和政治问题是分开的。 |
| 866 | And this is actually, I think, where the Republicans tend to get it wrong | 这其实是,我想,共和党 倾向于把它弄错了。 |
| 867 | and they don't understand. | 他们不明白 |
| 868 | The fact that one can show up and fight for a right that one may never ever use | 一个人可以现身,为永远无法使用的权利而奋斗 |
| 869 | is exactly what the constitution is supposed to protect in the first place. | 这正是宪法应该保护的 |
| 870 | Because I don't need people to understand why I pray the way I pray. | 因为我不需要别人来理解 为什么我祈祷的方式。 |
| 871 | I just need people to decide that if they try to take away my right to do it, | 我只是需要人们决定 如果他们想夺走我的权利 |
| 872 | that that's wrong under the constitution. | 根据宪法,这是错误的。 |
| 873 | Similarly, I don't need anybody to understand. | 同样,我不需要任何人来理解。 |
| 874 | Just to, what about, since this is a flashpoint in these debates, | 只是,怎么样, 由于这是一个热点 在这些辩论中, |
| 875 | what about the rights of parents to control over their children's education? | 父母控制其子女教育的权利如何? |
| 876 | Because a lot of places where there's tension between Islam and Muslim voters | 因为很多地方伊斯兰教和穆斯林选民之间有紧张关系 |
| 877 | and what I'm calling cultural liberalism are around issues like, | 我所说的文化自由主义是围绕着诸如, |
| 878 | what is taught in school? | 学校教什么? |
| 879 | What happens with transgender kids on sports teams? | 运动队的变性孩子怎么办? |
| 880 | And so on, right? | 比如说,对不对? |
| 881 | Like, these are places where rights are in conflict, right? | 喜欢,这些地方的权利有冲突,对不对? |
| 882 | What do you think happens there? | 你觉得会发生什么? |
| 883 | I don't know that that's actually true. | 我不知道这是真的。 |
| 884 | I think we manufacture these social issues. | 我认为我们制造这些社会问题。 |
| 885 | Because here's the thing about it. | 因为事情是这样的 |
| 886 | Ross, you have an iPhone in your pocket, probably. | 罗斯,你口袋里可能有iPhone |
| 887 | 还是iPhone还是三星? | |
| 888 | You have a phone in your pocket, right? | 你口袋里有电话吧? |
| 889 | You can get access to everything and anything in the whole world, | 你可以进入 世界上的一切和任何东西, |
| 890 | all the world's information in your pocket. | 你口袋里有全世界的资料 |
| 891 | The notion, somehow, that you are going to prevent your child | 这个想法,不知何故, 你会阻止你的孩子 |
| 892 | from being exposed to something that you may find disagreeable | 被暴露于你可能发现不祥的东西 |
| 893 | and that that is going to be because of school is so profoundly outdated. | 因为学校已经过时了 |
| 894 | Because, of course, you have all the information | 因为,当然,你拥有所有的信息 |
| 895 | and they have all the information. | 他们掌握了所有的信息 |
| 896 | So here's the thing about it. | 故此论. |
| 897 | I think it's really important for us to recognize | 我觉得我们一定要认清 |
| 898 | that the free flow of information is actually a beautiful thing. | 信息的自由流通其实是一件美妙的事 |
| 899 | It's really important. | 这很重要 |
| 900 | And the most important thing you can do is not try | 而最重要的事情 你可以做的是 不尝试 |
| 901 | to protect a person from seeing a thing. | 保护一个人不看到某件事。 |
| 902 | It's about trying to make sure that as you coach your kid through the world, | 这是关于试图确保 当你指导你的孩子 通过世界, |
| 903 | that you are engaging with them and saying, | 你必定要与他们交接,而且说: |
| 904 | here's what I believe. | 这就是我所相信的。 |
| 905 | Here's what you may see in the world. | 这是你可能在世界上看到的 |
| 906 | You get to make your choices about who you're going to be in the world. | 你可以选择你将会成为什么样的人 |
| 907 | But that's going to require us to do with the fact | 但是,这需要我们做的事实 |
| 908 | that the internet is a real thing. | 互联网是真实的。 |
| 909 | And this debate about, quote, unquote, what's taught in a classroom, | 和这场辩论 关于,引文,未引文, 什么在课堂上教, |
| 910 | I think has been made into a cultural flashpoint. | 我认为已经成为一个文化热点。 |
| 911 | Because a lot of the folks who want to make this a topic of conversation | 因为有很多人想把这当作谈话话题 |
| 912 | don't want to be talking about the real issues that we face in our lives. | 不想谈论我们生活中面临的真正问题。 |
| 913 | I mean, I'm just going to say a lot of the culture war issues | 我的意思是,我只是要说 很多文化战争的问题 |
| 914 | that get fought right now are about trying to distract us | 现在的战斗是想分散我们的注意力 |
| 915 | from the fact that we can't afford our gas, | 因为我们买不起汽油 |
| 916 | can't afford our groceries, can't see a doctor, | 买不起我们的杂货,看不起医生 |
| 917 | are worried about whether or not our kids are going to have a good life. | 担心我们的孩子是否会过上好日子 |
| 918 | And instead, we're out here talking about who gets to play what sport, | 相反,我们在这里谈论 谁可以玩什么运动, |
| 919 | which should be the question of the people who govern sports. | 这应该是管理体育的人的问题。 |
| 920 | I'm not running to govern sports, right? | 我不是来管理体育的 对吧? |
| 921 | My interest is in making sure that people have the ability to live a good life, | 我的兴趣是确保人们有能力过上美好的生活, |
| 922 | that they can have the health care that they need, | 他们可以得到他们需要的保健, |
| 923 | that they can breathe clean air, drink clean water, | 他们能呼吸干净的空气,能饮干净的水, |
| 924 | that they've got good schools that are well-funded in the first place. | 他们有良好的学校 资金充足,在一开始。 |
| 925 | All right. | 好吧,我们走。 |
| 926 | Let's talk about an issue where there's a lot of agreement | 我们来谈谈一个有很多协议的问题 |
| 927 | between more secular progressives and Muslim American voters. | 更世俗的进步者和美国穆斯林选民之间 |
| 928 | And that is the critique of Israel, Israeli policy. | 这就是以色列的评论,以色列的政策。 |
| 929 | You alluded to the Gaza War already and America's relationship to Israel. | 你已经提到加沙战争 以及美国与以色列的关系。 |
| 930 | In your view, what's wrong with America's relationship with Israel? | 在你看来,美国与以色列的关系有什么问题? |
| 931 | Number one, we have been told that we are pursuing a two-state solution | 第一,我们被告知,我们正在寻求两国解决方案 |
| 932 | only to aid, arm, and abet the very people who are trying to foreclose | 只是为了援助、武装和怂恿那些 想要赎回财产的人 |
| 933 | on the possibility of a second state. | 关于第二州的可能性。 |
| 934 | So it's incoherent on its own terms. | 故以自性无相. |
| 935 | Number two, I don't know about you, but I don't pay my taxes | 第二,我不知道你,但我不缴税 |
| 936 | to buy another country a bomb or a tank. | 买另一个国家 炸弹或坦克。 |
| 937 | That's Israel, that's Egypt, that's Saudi Arabia, that's Pakistan. | 那是以色列,那是埃及,那是沙特阿拉伯,那是巴基斯坦。 |
| 938 | My interest is making sure that our kids get good schools, | 我的兴趣是确保我们的孩子有好的学校, |
| 939 | that we have functional roads, | 我们有实用的道路, |
| 940 | that we're paying for things like health care and child care, | 我们付钱 诸如保健和儿童照顾, |
| 941 | and we're spending billions to do the worst things. | 我们花了数十亿去做最坏的事 |
| 942 | Three, the state of Israel did a genocide. | 三,以色列国实施种族灭绝. |
| 943 | I don't think that's disagreeable. | 我觉得这没什么不好的 |
| 944 | You don't look at anybody who actually studies this stuff | 你不看任何人 谁真正研究这些东西 |
| 945 | and they'll say it's a genocide. | 他们会说这是种族灭绝 |
| 946 | The human rights community in Israel says that it was a genocide. | 以色列人权界说,这是种族灭绝。 |
| 947 | And so the notion that our money was spent to do a genocide | 我们的钱是用来进行种族灭绝的 |
| 948 | by a foreign government and that we cannot continue | 我们无法继续 |
| 949 | to have a conversation about this to me is deeply problematic. | 跟我谈这件事很麻烦 |
| 950 | Finally, we are actively fighting a war that we have no business fighting. | 最后,我们正在积极打击一场没有商业战斗的战争。 |
| 951 | This has been the goal of one person in our civics for a very long time, | 很久以来,这是我们公民学上一个人的目标 |
| 952 | not even our civics, in international civics, | 甚至连我们的公民,在国际公民, |
| 953 | and that is the prime minister of the state of Israel. | 这是以色列国总理 |
| 954 | And we're told that Israel is our ally, | 我们被告知以色列是我们的盟友, |
| 955 | but I'm just so sorry, but if you're walking with a friend | 但是,我很抱歉,但如果你走 与朋友 |
| 956 | and you see a bear and you're like, | 你看见一只熊,你就像, |
| 957 | maybe we should just steer clear of the bear and your friend's like, | 也许我们应该躲开熊和你的朋友, |
| 958 | no, we ought to poke the bear. | 不,我们应该戳熊。 |
| 959 | I don't know if that person is really your friend. | 我不知道那个人是不是你的朋友 |
| 960 | And so I just think that we've got to really rethink | 所以我觉得我们必须重新思考 |
| 961 | the nature of this relationship based on a position of principles, | 基于原则立场的这种关系的性质, |
| 962 | just simply based on a position of principles. | 只是基于原则的立场。 |
| 963 | Now, I understand that we have a bipartisan consensus that Israel is an ally. | 现在,我理解,我们有两党共识,即以色列是一个盟友。 |
| 964 | I understand that most politicians aren't willing to say anything otherwise, | 我知道大多数政客都不愿意说别的 |
| 965 | but that may have a lot more to do with the nature of political spending, | 但这可能更多 与政治支出的性质, |
| 966 | which is why I want to get back to money out of politics. | 所以我想从政治中恢复到钱 |
| 967 | When I ran in my primary, | 当我在小学时, |
| 968 | one organization spent more than any other organization to beat me. | 一个组织花了比任何其他组织都多的钱来打败我。 |
| 969 | That is AIPAC, who is focused on making sure | 这是AIPAC,他专注于确保 |
| 970 | that politicians do not say what I just said. | 政客们不会说我刚才说的话 |
| 971 | Let's go back to that list of countries that you had earlier, | 让我们回到你之前的国家名单, |
| 972 | not just Israel, but Egypt, Saudi Arabia, and others. | 不仅是以色列,还有埃及、沙特阿拉伯和其他国家。 |
| 973 | I think there's a lot of people, including Jews, including Zionists, | 我认为有很多人,包括犹太人,包括犹太复国主义者, |
| 974 | people who support Israel in various ways, | 他们以各种方法援助以色列, |
| 975 | who look at Israel's war with Gaza and say if it wasn't genocide, | 他们看着以色列与加沙的战争,说如果这不是种族灭绝, |
| 976 | at least there were war crimes. | 至少还有战争罪。 |
| 977 | It was a bad thing. | 这是件坏事。 |
| 978 | There's a lot of people who disagree with the U.S. decision to go to war in Iran. | 不少人不同意美国在伊朗参战的决定. |
| 979 | But some of those people look at the progressive left, | 但有些人看着进步左翼 |
| 980 | which you are a champion, | 你确是一个冠军, |
| 981 | and say there's a zeal about Israel that isn't there | 并说有狂热的以色列 没有 |
| 982 | when you talk about the crimes of other countries in the Middle East. | 当你谈论中东其他国家的罪行时 |
| 983 | Just to take Saudi Arabia. | 就是为了占领沙特阿拉伯 |
| 984 | Let me finish the question. | 让我说完问题 |
| 985 | Saudi Arabia is, unlike Israel, a dictatorship, not a democracy. | 沙特阿拉伯与以色列不同,是一个独裁政权,而不是民主国家。 |
| 986 | Saudi Arabia is ruthless and cruel in all kinds of ways. | 沙特阿拉伯以各种方式残酷无情。 |
| 987 | Saudi Arabia killed a lot of people in Yemen | 沙特阿拉伯在也门杀了很多人 |
| 988 | to very little attention from left-wing politics in the U.S. | 很少受到美国左翼政治的注意 |
| 989 | Saudi Arabia, as far as we can tell, | 沙特阿拉伯,据我们所知, |
| 990 | may have also supported the decision to go to war with Iran. | 可能也支持与伊朗开战的决定。 |
| 991 | I'm sure you're going to tell me that you oppose all that, | 我相信你会告诉我 你反对这一切, |
| 992 | you don't love our alliance with Saudi Arabia, | 你不喜欢我们和沙特阿拉伯结盟 |
| 993 | but we're sitting here and there's a crowd gathering outside | 但是我们坐在这里 外面聚集着一群人 |
| 994 | that's going to cheer for you. | 这会为你欢呼的 |
| 995 | I'm skeptical that if you went outside | 我怀疑如果你出去的话 |
| 996 | and just talked about Saudi Arabia instead of Israel, | 谈论沙特阿拉伯而不是以色列 |
| 997 | that you would get a kind of hyped-up, enthusiastic reaction. | 你会得到一种hyped -up,热情的反应。 |
| 998 | Why do you think Israel stands out | 为什么你们认为以色列很突出 |
| 999 | as a place of anger and critique | 作为愤怒和批评的地方 |
| 1000 | in a way that other countries in the Middle East do not? | 中东其他国家不这样做? |
| 1001 | The scale of spending? | 开支规模? |
| 1002 | Just the scale of U.S. spending? | 只是美国开支的规模? |
| 1003 | The scale of U.S. spending, the scale of those war crimes, | 美国支出的规模,这些战争罪行的规模, |
| 1004 | and the impact on our politics. | 以及对政治的影响 |
| 1005 | You don't think Saudi Arabia has a big impact on our politics? | 你不觉得沙特阿拉伯对我们的政治有重大影响吗? |
| 1006 | 和AIPAC一样大? | |
| 1007 | I'm just going to tell you, in my own election, | 我要告诉你 在我自己的选举中 |
| 1008 | I'm overall spending $70 million in the primary alone, | 我总花费7000万美元 在小学, |
| 1009 | 33 of which was spent by AIPAC. | 其中33个由AIPAC使用. |
| 1010 | So can you point to any other spending impact? | 你能指向其他支出影响吗? |
| 1011 | I would say that Saudi, well, part of it. | 我想说的是沙特,嗯,一部分。 |
| 1012 | Wait, Ross, Ross, you're a smart man. | 等等,罗斯,罗斯,你是个聪明人 |
| 1013 | Do you really think that there is any entity | 你真的认为 有任何实体 |
| 1014 | on behalf of the Saudi government that is as strong | 以沙特政府的名义, |
| 1015 | as AIPAC is on behalf of the Israeli government? | AIPAC代表以色列政府? |
| 1016 | First of all, there is not, | 首先,没有 |
| 1017 | basically half the world's Jewish population lives in the U.S. | 基本上世界上一半的犹太人生活在美国. |
| 1018 | Half lives in Israel. | 半个住以色列. |
| 1019 | Half of Saudi Arabia, you know, like, Saudi Arabia is... | 沙特阿拉伯有一半是... |
| 1020 | You brought up Saudi Arabia. | 你提起沙特阿拉伯。 |
| 1021 | I did bring up Saudi Arabia. | 我确实提过沙特阿拉伯 |
| 1022 | You just don't like the example you brought up? | 你只是不喜欢你提出的榜样? |
| 1023 | No, no, I do like the example I brought up. | 不,不,我确实喜欢我举的例子。 |
| 1024 | Saudi Arabia has exercised lots and lots of influence | 沙特阿拉伯施加了很多影响 |
| 1025 | over U.S. foreign policy in all kinds of ways. | 以各种方式超越美国的外交政策。 |
| 1026 | All kinds of debates around 9-11 and the Saudi rule in 9-11. | 9-11前后的各种辩论和9-11年的沙特统治. |
| 1027 | So I'm not defending Saudi Arabia. | 所以我没有为沙特阿拉伯辩护 |
| 1028 | I'm saying there is not, I agree with you, | 我是说没有,我同意 |
| 1029 | there is neither sort of, | 没有一种, |
| 1030 | there is a very powerful Saudi lobby in Washington, D.C. | 在华盛顿特区有一个非常强大的沙特游说团. |
| 1031 | It's not a big organized force in U.S. elections, | 这在美国选举中不是一支有组织的大部队, |
| 1032 | but in part because there isn't a big anti-Saudi | 部分原因是没有大反沙特 |
| 1033 | lobby or movement operating on the political left, | 政治左翼的游说或运动, |
| 1034 | don't you think? | 你不觉得吗? |
| 1035 | I'm not going to defend Saudi Arabia. | 我不会为沙特阿拉伯辩护的 |
| 1036 | I'm not going to defend Egypt. | 我不会为埃及辩护的 |
| 1037 | Like, I really, like, I am principled in my opposition. | 喜欢,我真的一样, 我原则在我的反对。 |
| 1038 | But when one organization spends $33 million in one election | 但当一个组织在一次选举中花费3300万美元 |
| 1039 | on behalf of the interests of the foreign policy | 代表外交政策的利益 |
| 1040 | of a foreign government, yeah, | 一个外国政府,是的, |
| 1041 | there's going to be a big response there. | 那边会有大反应 |
| 1042 | And I just, look, I just, I want to be clear about this. | 我只是想说清楚 |
| 1043 | But this is a dynamic interaction. | 但这是一个动态互动。 |
| 1044 | The spending is also a reflection of the fact. | 支出也是事实的反映。 |
| 1045 | But here's the other challenge. | 但还有另一个挑战 |
| 1046 | You have an outsized critique of Israel. | 你对以色列的评论太大了 |
| 1047 | So you think it's the outsized critique that created the policies? | 所以,你认为这是 超规模的批评 创造了政策? |
| 1048 | Like, they created AIPAC that creates the response? | 比如说,他们创建了AIPAC来创造反应? |
| 1049 | I think the response... | 我想这个反应... |
| 1050 | That's an interesting chicken and egg interpretation. | 这是一个有趣的鸡和鸡蛋解释。 |
| 1051 | A lot of politics is a chicken and egg debate. | 很多政治都是鸡蛋争论. |
| 1052 | I know. | 我知道,我记得 |
| 1053 | And the question of what comes first | 问题是什么先 |
| 1054 | really dictates the way you see things. | 真正支配你看待事物的方式。 |
| 1055 | But, you know, I don't ever get the question of, | 但是,你知道, 我从来没有得到的问题, |
| 1056 | does Palestine have the right to exist? | 巴勒斯坦是否有权存在? |
| 1057 | I don't ever get the question of, | 我从来没有得到的问题, |
| 1058 | does Israel have a right to do a genocide? | 以色列是否有权进行种族灭绝? |
| 1059 | I don't ever get the question of, | 我从来没有得到的问题, |
| 1060 | does Israel have the right to our tax dollars? | 以色列是否有权征收我们的税收? |
| 1061 | Does Palestine have the right to exist? | 巴勒斯坦是否有权生存? |
| 1062 | Yes. | 对 |
| 1063 | Does Israel have the right to exist? | 以色列是否有权存在? |
| 1064 | Yes, if there is a shared understanding. | 是的,如果有共同的理解的话。 |
| 1065 | Wait, you said... | 等等 你说... |
| 1066 | Let me just understand. | 让我明白 |
| 1067 | I believe, and this is the problem with this debate, | 我相信,这就是本次辩论的问题, |
| 1068 | we start from where we sit rather than start from principles. | 我们从我们坐的地方开始,而不是从原则开始。 |
| 1069 | You're a principled guy, okay? | 你是个有原则的人,好吗? |
| 1070 | I've heard you do this on your podcast. | 我听说你在播客上这样 |
| 1071 | I don't know how many times. | 不知多少时. |
| 1072 | I believe in equal rights to peace, dignity, and self-determination | 我相信和平、尊严和自决权平等 |
| 1073 | for Palestinians and Jewish Israelis alike. | 对巴勒斯坦人和犹太裔以色列人都是如此。 |
| 1074 | If the Palestinian people decide, | 如果巴勒斯坦人民决定, |
| 1075 | and the Israeli people decide, | 以色列人民, |
| 1076 | that they want two states for two people, | 他们欲为两个人建立两州, |
| 1077 | and they decide that on equal terms, | 他们决定,在平等的条件下, |
| 1078 | I'm for it. | 我赞成 |
| 1079 | If they decide that they want one state shared in a different way, | 如果他们决定要以不同的方式分享一个国家 |
| 1080 | I'm for that. | 我赞成 |
| 1081 | If they decide that they want 23 states or land for all, | 如果他们决定他们想要23个州或土地, |
| 1082 | I'm for that. | 我赞成 |
| 1083 | I want to start with the process. | 我想从这个过程开始 |
| 1084 | I remember talking about democracy. | 我记得在谈论民主。 |
| 1085 | Democracy is not an outcome, it's a process. | 民主不是结果,而是过程. |
| 1086 | I am very process-oriented. | 我非常注重过程。 |
| 1087 | I think that the process ought to start with the notion | 我认为这一过程应该从这个概念开始。 |
| 1088 | that there is a self-determination among Palestinians, | 巴勒斯坦人有自决, |
| 1089 | which has never been respected. | 这从未得到尊重。 |
| 1090 | And our public policy has never respected that. | 我们的公共政策从来没有尊重过这一点。 |
| 1091 | Okay. | 摆 |
| 1092 | So if we want to talk about the right of Israel to exist, | 所以,如果我们想谈 以色列的生存权, |
| 1093 | it has to exist alongside a Palestine | 它必须与巴勒斯坦共存 |
| 1094 | is the consensus of both of these communities. | 双方的共识。 |
| 1095 | That is the argument for the two-state solution. | 这就是两国解决方案的论点。 |
| 1096 | No, that's actually not the argument for the two-state solution. | 不,这其实不是两国解决方案的论点。 |
| 1097 | Two-state solution assumes that both Palestinians and Israelis | 两国解决方案假定巴勒斯坦人和以色列人都 |
| 1098 | want independent states. | 想要独立的国家。 |
| 1099 | Except for that's not de facto how it's operating. | 除了那不是实际操作 |
| 1100 | {\fn黑体\fs20\shad2\2aH82\3aH20\4aH33\fscx95\3cH592001\be1}它现在作为盐水运作 {\fn黑体\fs20\shad2\2aH82\3aH20\4aH33\fscx95\3cH592001\be1}告诉我们 | |
| 1101 | that what Israel is doing is somehow consistent | 以色列正在做的事在某种程度上是一贯的 |
| 1102 | because we keep saying we're for a two-state solution. | 因为我们一直说我们赞成两国解决方案 |
| 1103 | Okay, but why not just say I'm for a two-state solution | 好吧,但为什么不只是说 我是一个二州解决方案 |
| 1104 | but a better and real one? | 但一个更好和真实的? |
| 1105 | Because I don't know that the Palestinian people | 因为我不知道 巴勒斯坦人民 |
| 1106 | have had a voice to say that they want a state. | 有声音说他们想要一个州。 |
| 1107 | I don't know because we've never actually allowed for | 我不知道,因为我们从来没有真正允许 |
| 1108 | equal rights to peace, dignity, and self-determination. | 享有和平、尊严和自决权的平等权利。 |
| 1109 | I start with the process in mind. | 我从这个过程开始。 |
| 1110 | Okay. | 摆 |
| 1111 | And right now- | 现在... |
| 1112 | But don't you think we- | 但你不认为我们... |
| 1113 | No, no, just let me finish the point. | 不,不,让我说完 |
| 1114 | Too often when this question is asked, | 当有人问到这个问题时, |
| 1115 | we start with the currently existing state of Israel | 我们从以色列目前的状态开始 |
| 1116 | that is existing in contraposition to the possibility | 存在与可能相反的情况 |
| 1117 | of a state of Palestine. | 巴勒斯坦国 |
| 1118 | We have to start on that premise and then from there we say, | 我们必须从这个前提开始 然后从那里说, |
| 1119 | okay, where do we carve out a Palestinian state? | 好吧,我们在哪里挖一个巴勒斯坦国? |
| 1120 | That's not equal rights to peace, dignity, and self-determination. | 这不是和平、尊严和自决的平等权利。 |
| 1121 | So again, I want to be clear about this. | 再说一遍,我想说清楚 |
| 1122 | Equal rights to peace, dignity, and self-determination. | 享有和平、尊严和自决权的平等权利。 |
| 1123 | Anytime I say that, people like to interpret that | 每当我说, 人们喜欢解释 |
| 1124 | as being in anti-position to any one community. | 对任何一个社区都持反对态度。 |
| 1125 | It's not. | 这不是。 |
| 1126 | It's in recognizing that these two communities | 是承认这两个社区 |
| 1127 | should have equal rights. | 应有平等的权利。 |
| 1128 | And our public policy, both de jure and de facto, | 我们的公共政策,无论是法律上还是事实上, |
| 1129 | has run roughshod over the possibility of any sort | 对于任何一种可能性 都很难把握 |
| 1130 | of Palestinian self-determination. | 巴勒斯坦人民的自决权。 |
| 1131 | And we run over that in the notion that we say, | 我们跑过这个概念 我们说, |
| 1132 | oh, well, how come you won't agree to this thing | 哦,好吧,你为什么不同意这件事情 |
| 1133 | that we all keep telling ourselves we're for | 我们都一直告诉自己我们是 |
| 1134 | despite the fact that we are operating | 尽管我们行动起来 |
| 1135 | in complete contraposition to it? | 完全相反吗? |
| 1136 | It's not serious. | 亦不严重. |
| 1137 | I think one reason people ask you that, | 我想有人问你这个原因 |
| 1138 | and they've asked you that a lot, right, | 他们问你很多,对吗, |
| 1139 | is that they are looking for a recognition from you | 他们想从你那里获得承认 |
| 1140 | that there is no world where Israelis don't want | 没有一个世界是以色列人不希望的 |
| 1141 | a Jewish state. | a 犹太国家。 |
| 1142 | So there's no reason for you, like, you're saying, | 所以,你没有理由, 像,你说, |
| 1143 | you know, if Israelis want this and Palestinians want this, | 你知道,如果以色列人想要这个,巴勒斯坦人想要这个, |
| 1144 | then that's what will happen. | 然后,这就是会发生什么。 |
| 1145 | Why not just say, so do we know Israelis want a Jewish state, | 为什么不直说,我们知道以色列人想要一个犹太国家, |
| 1146 | and therefore there should be a Jewish state | 因此应该有一个犹太国家 |
| 1147 | and a Palestinian state, and just say that? | 和一个巴勒斯坦国,然后就这么说? |
| 1148 | I actually don't think that, I don't know that that's true. | 其实我不这么认为, 我不知道这是真的。 |
| 1149 | I think the question right now is, | 我想现在的问题是, |
| 1150 | how do you empower two communities with equal rights | 如何赋予两个社区平等的权利 |
| 1151 | to peace, dignity, and self-determination | 对和平、尊严和自决的影响 |
| 1152 | to have the conversation amongst themselves | 互相交谈 |
| 1153 | to see where that lays out? | 看看情况如何? |
| 1154 | But the problem is that process has never been dignified. | 但问题是,这一进程从未有尊严。 |
| 1155 | The challenge with this conversation, really, right, | 这场对话的挑战,真的,没错, |
| 1156 | is that we have not dignified the self-determination needs | 我们没有尊重自决的需要 |
| 1157 | of Palestinians. | 巴勒斯坦人的情况。 |
| 1158 | And here's the big question, ultimately, | 有个大问题 最终 |
| 1159 | is it really comes down to where should we put our tax dollars | 这真的要到哪去 我们的税金应该放在哪里 |
| 1160 | and how? | 怎么样? |
| 1161 | My focus is always going to be on Michigan, | 我总是把注意力放在密歇根 |
| 1162 | and right now the same money that's being spent over there | 而现在,同样的钱 在那里花费 |
| 1163 | should be money that's spent over here. | 应该就是这里的钱 |
| 1164 | I want to be clear. | 我想说清楚 |
| 1165 | When it comes to the well-being of the Jewish community here, | 关于这里犹太社区的福祉, |
| 1166 | I am lockstep in standing with Jewish safety. | 我站在犹太人安全的地方 |
| 1167 | I grew up in a predominantly Jewish community. | 我在犹太人社区长大 |
| 1168 | I'm really grateful for that. | 我真的很感激这一点。 |
| 1169 | And it's not about the disagreements with any one community | 这与任何族群的分歧无关 |
| 1170 | and their need for self-determination. | 他们需要自决。 |
| 1171 | It's in asking, how do we allow these two communities | 我们如何允许这两个社区 |
| 1172 | to come together in a conversation | 一起谈话 |
| 1173 | to talk about how best to navigate their mutual draws | 谈论如何最好地 导航他们的相互画 |
| 1174 | and claims to a land? | 并声称土地? |
| 1175 | And I don't think we've done that. | 我认为我们没有做到这一点。 |
| 1176 | And too often when you take the currently existing state of Israel | 当你们占领以色列目前的状态时, |
| 1177 | and you take its claims as being the most important, | 你把它当作最重要的权利主张, |
| 1178 | what you are by definition doing is saying | 你所要做的是说 |
| 1179 | that the claims to self-determination are not equal. | 自决要求是不平等的。 |
| 1180 | And ultimately, our responsibility is to stand up | 归根结底,我们的责任是站起来 |
| 1181 | for international law. | 国际法。 |
| 1182 | Our responsibility is to hold every country accountable | 我们的责任是追究每一个国家的责任 |
| 1183 | to the same set of ideals. | 同样的理想。 |
| 1184 | Right now we're aiding, arming, and abetting a government | 现在,我们援助,武装, 和教唆政府 |
| 1185 | that has been dead set on foreclosing | 已经死亡的, |
| 1186 | on the possibility of Palestinian self-determination. | 关于巴勒斯坦自决的可能性。 |
| 1187 | We subsidize the genocide with our tax dollars | 我们用我们的税收来补贴种族灭绝 |
| 1188 | that should be spent here. | 应该用在这里 |
| 1189 | I want our tax dollars spent here. | 我要把我们的税收花在这里 |
| 1190 | One more foreign policy question then. | 那么,还有一个外交政策问题。 |
| 1191 | You want to end the war with Iran. | 你想结束与伊朗的战争 |
| 1192 | Yes. | 对 |
| 1193 | You want the Senate to use their war powers | 你想让元老院利用他们的战权 |
| 1194 | to end the war with Iran. | 结束与伊朗的战争 |
| 1195 | What do you do if Iran doesn't want to end the war? | 如果伊朗不想结束战争,你会怎么做? |
| 1196 | If the U.S. says the war is over, we're pulling out, | 如果美国说战争结束了 我们就要撤退了 |
| 1197 | and Iran says, great, now we're in charge | 伊朗说,很好,现在我们负责 |
| 1198 | of the Strait of Hormuz forever and ever, | 永永远远的霍尔木兹海峡, |
| 1199 | world without end, amen. | 世界无尽,阿门。 |
| 1200 | What does the U.S. do? | 美国做什么? |
| 1201 | How did we get to the JCPOA? | 我们怎么去JCPOA的? |
| 1202 | We pretend like the only thing we have is our sabers, | 我们假装我们唯一拥有的 就是我们的剑手 |
| 1203 | and we rattle them or we use them. | 然后我们惊动他们 或者我们使用他们。 |
| 1204 | That's Donald Trump's logic. | 这就是唐纳德·特朗普的逻辑. |
| 1205 | We got to the JCPOA because there are other needs | 我们到了JCPOA 因为还有其他需要 |
| 1206 | that Iran has. | 伊朗已经这样做了。 |
| 1207 | Iran does not want to be a pariah. | 伊朗不想成为贱民。 |
| 1208 | There's a lot of power that we can inflict | 我们能施加很多力量 |
| 1209 | that is not just war, because right now, | 这不仅仅是战争 因为现在 |
| 1210 | the war doesn't seem to be ending, | 战争似乎没有结束 |
| 1211 | and all that's happening is escalating, | 而这一切正在升级, |
| 1212 | and that war is spreading. | 战争正在蔓延 |
| 1213 | So I think we need to end the war, | 所以,我认为我们需要结束战争, |
| 1214 | and I think we need to get back to the negotiating table | 我认为我们需要回到谈判桌上 |
| 1215 | to get to the kind of space where we can get to | 到达我们所能到达的空间 |
| 1216 | where we have a pathway like we had | 在那里,我们有一个路径 像我们有 |
| 1217 | at the end of the Obama administration. | 在奥巴马政府的末端。 |
| 1218 | Let's bring it back to Michigan politics, | 让我们把它带回密歇根州的政治, |
| 1219 | but connect it to the foreign policy discussion | 但把它和外交政策讨论联系起来 |
| 1220 | we've just had. | 我们刚刚有。 |
| 1221 | One of the big questions around your campaign | 你竞选中一个大问题 |
| 1222 | is about Jewish Democrats | 是关于犹太民主党的 |
| 1223 | and whether they will vote for you. | 还有他们是否愿意投你一票 |
| 1224 | And there are Jewish Democrats out there | 外面还有犹太民主党人 |
| 1225 | who would say, what I was looking for from Syed | 谁会说,我正在寻找 从赛义德 |
| 1226 | was reassurance that at the end of the day, | 保证到最后 |
| 1227 | whatever happens with the peace process or anything else, | 不论和平进程或其他情况如何, |
| 1228 | he will support the existence of a Jewish homeland | 他会支持犹太家园的存在 |
| 1229 | in the Middle East. | 中东。 |
| 1230 | Do you think that you are saying enough | 你觉得你已经说够了吗? |
| 1231 | to reassure those voters that you are on their side? | 让选民放心 你站在他们一边? |
| 1232 | Well, let me broaden that conversation out. | 好吧,让我扩大 对话了。 |
| 1233 | Wherever our disagreements are when it comes to Israel, | 无论我们对以色列有什么分歧 |
| 1234 | there are a lot more things that we agree on here. | 还有很多事情我们在这里达成一致。 |
| 1235 | The right to pray as you choose to pray. | 做祷告的权利 |
| 1236 | Safety for religious minorities. | 宗教少数群体的安全。 |
| 1237 | The right to choose. | 选择的权利。 |
| 1238 | These are things we all agree on. | 这些都是我们都同意的。 |
| 1239 | the sanctity of our democracy here at home. | 我们民主的神圣不可侵犯 |
| 1240 | There is so much more that we agree on than we disagree on. | 我们同意的远远多于我们不同意的。 |
| 1241 | When it comes to standing up for Jewish Americans, | 说到为美国犹太人辩护 |
| 1242 | I will be right there. | 我马上过去 |
| 1243 | I understand what it's like to fear | 我明白恐惧的滋味 |
| 1244 | what happens at my place of worship. | 在我的礼拜场所发生了什么。 |
| 1245 | So I'm hoping that the things that bring us together | 所以我希望那些让我们走到一起的东西 |
| 1246 | are bigger than the things that draw us apart. | 比那些让我们分道扬镳的东西还重要 |
| 1247 | And I'll say this, again, I do not reject the idea | 我再说一遍,我不拒绝这个想法 |
| 1248 | that we should have equal rights | 我们应拥有平等的权利 |
| 1249 | to peace, dignity, and self-determination. | 实现和平、尊严和自决。 |
| 1250 | I just reject the idea that we are anywhere near that | 我只是拒绝我们接近那个想法 |
| 1251 | in our current conversation. | 我们的谈话 |
| 1252 | And I want us to get to a point, this is my hope, | 我希望我们能说点什么 这就是我的希望 |
| 1253 | that a Jewish child growing up in the homeland | 一个在家乡长大的犹太儿童 |
| 1254 | and a Palestinian child growing up in the homeland | 和一个在家乡长大的巴勒斯坦儿童 |
| 1255 | can look forward and say, | 可以向前看并说, |
| 1256 | my life is not going to be at risk because of violence. | 我的生命不会因为暴力而受到威胁。 |
| 1257 | That's what I'm trying to build toward. | 这就是我想要建设的。 |
| 1258 | I don't think we are anywhere near there right now, | 我觉得我们现在离这里不远了 |
| 1259 | because if there is not a clear opportunity | 因为如果没有明确的机会 |
| 1260 | for the Palestinian people to have their right | 巴勒斯坦人民享有其 |
| 1261 | to peace, dignity, and self-determination | 对和平、尊严和自决的影响 |
| 1262 | alongside the Jewish people's right | 和犹太人的权利 |
| 1263 | to peace, dignity, and self-determination, | 对和平、尊严和自决, |
| 1264 | I fear that we're just gonna end up | 我怕我们最终会死 |
| 1265 | right back in a silence, a circle of violence. | 回到沉默中 暴力循环 |
| 1266 | I'm sorry, I'm gonna push you one more time on this. | 对不起,我要再推你一次 |
| 1267 | Rossi, with every other journalist. | 罗西 和其他记者一起 |
| 1268 | The world is filled with nations | 世界充满了国家 |
| 1269 | that have historic ethnic identities | 具有历史民族特征的 |
| 1270 | that are not just sort of state systems, | 这不仅仅是一种状态系统, |
| 1271 | but are nations for peoples. | 但为人民服务的国家。 |
| 1272 | And I don't think it's hard to say, | 我不觉得很难说 |
| 1273 | there should be a Japanese nation | 应该有一个日本国家 |
| 1274 | for the Japanese people. | 为了日本人民 |
| 1275 | There should be an Egyptian nation | 应该有一个埃及国家 |
| 1276 | for the Egyptian people. | 为埃及人民。 |
| 1277 | I just, I feel like that should be something | 我只是,我觉得这应该是什么 |
| 1278 | that should be easy to say. | 这应该很容易说。 |
| 1279 | Can I ask you, what do you make of the Palestinian people? | 我能问你,你如何看待巴勒斯坦人民? |
| 1280 | I think the Palestinian people deserve to have a homeland. | 我认为巴勒斯坦人民应该有一个家园。 |
| 1281 | In, I mean, I would say generally, historically, | 我的意思是,我要说, 总的来说,历史, |
| 1282 | I would support a version of the two-state solution, | 我支持两国解决方案的版本, |
| 1283 | which creates problems, because yes, | 造成问题,因为是的, |
| 1284 | there's Gaza, and there's the West Bank, | 有加沙,还有西岸, |
| 1285 | and they're separated. | 他们分开了 |
| 1286 | It's not the ideal landscape for a state. | 这不是一个州的理想景观. |
| 1287 | So only on Gaza and the West Bank? | 所以,只有加沙和西岸? |
| 1288 | I think that that, I think that- | 我认为,我认为... |
| 1289 | They should have no other self-determination | 他们不应该有其他自决 |
| 1290 | except for Gaza and the West Bank. | 但加沙和西岸除外。 |
| 1291 | I think that that- And the small pieces of it | 我觉得... 和它的小块 |
| 1292 | that have been now annihilated, | 被毁灭的, |
| 1293 | and the parts that are being encroached upon by settlers. | 以及定居者正在侵犯的部分。 |
| 1294 | I think that there was a very plausible scenario | 我认为有一个非常可信的情景 |
| 1295 | that would have gotten the Palestinian people- | 那会让巴勒斯坦人民... |
| 1296 | Every version of this conversation | 这个谈话的每个版本 |
| 1297 | goes back to some time in history | 回到历史的某个时期 |
| 1298 | where it could have been. | 它可能已经在那里。 |
| 1299 | I don't wanna go back some time in history. | 我不想回到历史上的某个时期 |
| 1300 | I wanna go into the future. | 我想进入未来 |
| 1301 | It could be now. | 现在有可能了 |
| 1302 | And look, the hard part is this. | 看,最难的就是这个。 |
| 1303 | This is exactly my point. | 这正是我的观点。 |
| 1304 | You've proved my point perfectly. | 你已经完全证明了我的观点。 |
| 1305 | I want equal rights to peace, dignity, | 我想要和平、尊严的平等权利 |
| 1306 | and self-determination for Palestinians | 巴勒斯坦人民的自决权问题 |
| 1307 | and Jewish Israelis alike. | 犹太裔以色列人 |
| 1308 | And the problem with saying, | 和问题说, |
| 1309 | yeah, we're gonna just take as fixed the idea | 是啊,我们只是要 采取一样固定的想法 |
| 1310 | of the state as it is, | 国家现在, |
| 1311 | implies that you are just taking whatever's carved left, | 意味着你只是拿走了任何雕刻留下的东西, |
| 1312 | and there is no actual real opportunity | 没有真正的机会 |
| 1313 | for self-determination for the Palestinian people. | 巴勒斯坦人民的自决。 |
| 1314 | It's like, hey, listen, after I eat, | 就像,嘿,听着,我吃完饭后, |
| 1315 | then you can have my seconds. | 然后,你可以拥有我的秒。 |
| 1316 | I just don't think that's fair. | 我只是觉得这不公平 |
| 1317 | I think if we're serious about this, | 我想如果我们是认真的, |
| 1318 | we're gonna have to bring peoples together and ask, | 我们得把人们聚集在一起 问 |
| 1319 | how do we navigate the shared understanding of this space? | 我们如何对这一空间的共同理解? |
| 1320 | You made the point perfectly for me, | 你对我说得很清楚 |
| 1321 | is that when I ask you, | 当我问你, |
| 1322 | what about Palestinian self-determination? | 巴勒斯坦自决怎么办? |
| 1323 | You're like, I guess we could carve a state out there, | 你就像,我想我们可以 划一个州在那里, |
| 1324 | maybe. | 也许 |
| 1325 | It's not serious. | 亦不严重. |
| 1326 | So I'm just saying, look, right now, | 所以,我只是说, 听着,现在, |
| 1327 | I'm not disagreeing with what you're saying. | 我不反对你说的 |
| 1328 | Ross, let me just- | 罗斯,让我... |
| 1329 | I think that it is more serious | 我认为这更严重 |
| 1330 | than a theory of purely hypothetical negotiated future | 而不是纯粹假设的未来理论 |
| 1331 | that ignores the realities of borders | 无视边界现实 |
| 1332 | that have existed for decades. | 已经存在几十年了 |
| 1333 | I think it is more realistic, | 我觉得这更现实 |
| 1334 | and probably delivers more | 并可能带来更多的 |
| 1335 | for the Palestinian people right now. | 现在为巴勒斯坦人民服务。 |
| 1336 | But you are getting me to deliver opinions, | 但你让我表达自己的意见 |
| 1337 | and I'm gonna stop and ask you- | 我会停下来问你... |
| 1338 | I'm gonna ask you- | 我要问你... |
| 1339 | Let me just finish the point. | 让我说完 |
| 1340 | Do we need to get from where we are to where we're headed? | 我们需要从我们要去的地方到我们要去的地方吗? |
| 1341 | Yes. | 对 |
| 1342 | Are we headed to where we want to go? | 我们要去我们想去的地方吗? |
| 1343 | No. | 没有 |
| 1344 | So what I'm trying to do is say, look, | 所以,我想做的是说,你看, |
| 1345 | in order for us to get to where we need to go, | 为了达到我们该去的地方 |
| 1346 | we're gonna have to figure out | 我们要想办法 |
| 1347 | how to have a conversation that dignifies equal rights | 如何进行尊重平等权利的对话 |
| 1348 | to peace, dignity, and self-determination. | 实现和平、尊严和自决。 |
| 1349 | And right now, our foreign policy does not do that. | 现在,我们的外交政策并没有做到这一点。 |
| 1350 | And I would like us to get to a point where it does. | 我希望我们达到它能达到的程度。 |
| 1351 | Last question. | 最后一个问题。 |
| 1352 | Same as one we asked your opponent. | 和我们问你的对手一样 |
| 1353 | This is a very fraught, high-stakes Senate race. | 这是一个非常充满活力的参议院竞赛。 |
| 1354 | Lots and lots of money has been spent in it. | 里面花了很多钱 |
| 1355 | What's the biggest thing that you think is different | 最大的事情是什么 你认为是不同的 |
| 1356 | in U.S. politics if you win? | 在美国政治中,如果你赢了呢? |
| 1357 | The ability to run a campaign and win against big money | 有能力进行竞选 赢得大钱 |
| 1358 | by engaging with people, | 与众人交往, |
| 1359 | having a conversation about who we are | 谈起我们是谁 |
| 1360 | and who we want to be. | 以及我们想要成为谁 |
| 1361 | I take the idea that you can persuade people | 我的想法是,你可以说服人们 |
| 1362 | really seriously. | 说真的 |
| 1363 | I go everywhere and talk to everybody. | 我到处去跟大家谈谈 |
| 1364 | I go on Fox News. | 我上福克斯新闻 |
| 1365 | I go talk to, you know, you name the podcast. | 我去和你说 你给播客起名 |
| 1366 | Talk to me. | 说话 |
| 1367 | I'm talking to you, right? | 我在跟你说话,对吧? |
| 1368 | Even though I have misgivings about the people | 虽然我对人民有疑虑 |
| 1369 | who run your whole station, all of CBS. | 他们管理着你们所有的电台 整个CBS |
| 1370 | But I'm talking to you because I want to have a conversation | 但我跟你说话是因为我想和你谈谈 |
| 1371 | with the broader public. | 与广大大众. |
| 1372 | I think if we can have a conversation together, | 我想如果我们能一起谈谈 |
| 1373 | our politics can shift. | 我们的政治可以改变 |
| 1374 | But right now, that's not how we do politics. | 但是现在,我们不是这么搞政治的。 |
| 1375 | Right now, we allow a few corporations | 现在,我们允许几家公司 |
| 1376 | to pay huge amounts of money. | 以支付巨额资金。 |
| 1377 | By the time this is done, right, | 到这时候,没错, |
| 1378 | all of the outside spending will have reached | 所有外部开支都将达到 |
| 1379 | a third of a billion dollars just to beat me in a campaign. | 为了在一场竞选中打败我 只需10亿美元中的三分之一 |
| 1380 | Why? | 为什么? |
| 1381 | Well, because I'm willing to tell you what I think. | 因为我愿意告诉你我的想法 |
| 1382 | Because I'm willing not to play that game. | 因为我不想玩那个游戏 |
| 1383 | I don't take money from corporations. | 我不从公司拿钱。 |
| 1384 | I want to stand up to them. | 我想面对他们 |
| 1385 | I want to fight for working people. | 我想为工人而战 |
| 1386 | So that's what changes. | 因此,这就是变化。 |
| 1387 | It's the ability to actually have a voice | 这是真正有声音的能力 |
| 1388 | in the United States Senate that says, | 在美国参议院说, |
| 1389 | look, whether it's corporate money and dark money | 你看,不管它是公司的钱和黑钱 |
| 1390 | going to Republicans or Democrats, that's the problem. | 去共和党或民主党, 这就是问题所在。 |
| 1391 | I think we need to have a conversation | 我想我们得谈谈 |
| 1392 | about who we are and who we want to be. | 关于我们是谁,我们想成为谁。 |
| 1393 | That's the kind of political movement | 这就是那种政治运动 |
| 1394 | that we're building here in Michigan. | 我们正在密歇根州建造 |
| 1395 | And God willing, that's the kind of political movement | 上帝保佑,这就是那种政治运动 |
| 1396 | we will have, because that's what our framers | 我们会有的,因为这就是我们的设定者 |
| 1397 | intended this to be. | 本来打算这么做的 |
| 1398 | Government of, by, and for the people. | 由人民、由人民和人民组成的政府。 |
| 1399 | Not of, by, and for our corporations, | 不,我们的公司, |
| 1400 | billionaires, and special interests. | 亿万富翁和特殊利益 |
| 1401 | And God willing, that's the kind of political movement | 上帝保佑,这就是那种政治运动 |
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