【双语音+文稿】（完整版）乔丹·彼得森访谈埃隆·马斯：主题围

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P1	【双语音+文稿】（完整版）乔丹·彼得森访谈埃隆·马斯：主题围	1:55:33

P1 · 【双语音+文稿】（完整版）乔丹·彼得森访谈埃隆·马斯：主题围绕AI、伦理变革、社会乱象反思、人口危机、人生哲学与星际文明愿景展开 p01 英文版 (P1)

【双语音+文稿】（完整版）乔丹·彼得森访谈埃隆·马斯：主题围绕AI、伦理变革、社会乱象反思、人口危机、人生哲学与星际文明愿景展开 p01 英文版 (P1)

发布于 2026-09-06 · 时长 1:55:33

字幕摘录

时间	英文	中文
0:30	So the first thing I'd like to say is that it's ridiculously exciting to be here.	所以,我首先想说的是, 来到这里是荒谬的刺激。
0:36	You're most welcome to be here.	很高兴你能来
0:38	This is quite the amazing place and I've been preparing to talk to you for a long time.	这地方很棒我一直准备跟你谈谈
0:45	So I'm really looking forward to it.	所以我真的很期待它。
0:46	You said something that caught me right away when we were discussing various issues just	你刚才说的一些话让我一触即发在我们讨论各种问题的时候
0:54	before we started.	在我们开始之前
0:55	You said you were up till four in the morning.	你说你早上才四点
0:57	Yeah, actually a little more like five in the morning.	是啊,实际上有点像 5在早晨。
1:00	We got to the XAI data center or supercomputer center training from beginning installation	我们得到了XAI数据中心或超级计算机中心训练从安装开始
1:12	to start of training in 19 days, which is the fastest that anyone has ever gotten a	在19天之内开始训练,这是任何人得到的最快的速度

展开字幕全文（3100 条）

序号	英文	中文
1	So the first thing I'd like to say is that it's ridiculously exciting to be here.	所以,我首先想说的是, 来到这里是荒谬的刺激。
2	You're most welcome to be here.	很高兴你能来
3	This is quite the amazing place and I've been preparing to talk to you for a long time.	这地方很棒我一直准备跟你谈谈
4	So I'm really looking forward to it.	所以我真的很期待它。
5	You said something that caught me right away when we were discussing various issues just	你刚才说的一些话让我一触即发在我们讨论各种问题的时候
6	before we started.	在我们开始之前
7	You said you were up till four in the morning.	你说你早上才四点
8	Yeah, actually a little more like five in the morning.	是啊,实际上有点像 5在早晨。
9	We got to the XAI data center or supercomputer center training from beginning installation	我们得到了XAI数据中心或超级计算机中心训练从安装开始
10	to start of training in 19 days, which is the fastest that anyone has ever gotten a	在19天之内开始训练,这是任何人得到的最快的速度
11	supercomputer to train.	超级计算机训练。
12	And is that in that new building off to the side?	那栋新楼是不是在那边?
13	That's in Memphis, actually.	那是在孟菲斯,其实。
14	It's in Memphis?	在孟菲斯吗?
15	Yeah.	对
16	So that's where you were?	这就是你去过的地方?
17	I see.	原来如此
18	Memphis, the capital of ancient Egypt.	古埃及首都孟菲斯.
19	Right, right, right.	对,对,对
20	You're bringing what?	你要带什么?
21	Perhaps that's where our new god will come from.	也许这就是我们新神的来历
22	Yeah, no kidding.	是啊,没有开玩笑。
23	No kidding.	别开玩笑了
24	Yeah, I wish that was funny.	是啊,我希望这是有趣的。
25	Yeah, okay.	是啊,没关系。
26	So I want to talk to you about a line that...	我想跟你谈谈一条线...
27	I wish that was funny.	我希望这很有趣。
28	Yeah, right.	没错
29	Look, there are a few things we're aiming for with Grok, the XAI.	你看,有一些事情我们的目标与Grok, XAI。
30	But it's the name of the...	但这是...
31	来自XAI的AI叫做Grok.
32	I'm familiar.	常识.
33	I want to ask you about that, too.	我也想问你
34	Well, Grok just means to deeply understand something.	嗯,格罗克只是意味着深刻理解的东西。
35	Yeah, but it's got that weird background.	是的,但它有奇怪的背景。
36	That's Stranger in a Strange Land, right?	这是陌生人在陌生的地方,对不对?
37	Robert Heinlein.	罗伯特·海因莱因.
38	That was a favorite book of mine.	那是我最喜欢的书
39	How old are you?	你几岁了?
40	Thirty-three.	33岁.
41	Yeah, okay.	是啊,没关系。
42	So we're roughly from the same era.	所以我们大概是同一时代的。
43	I read Heinlein a lot when I was a kid.	我小时候经常读海因林
44	The first two thirds of Stranger in a Strange Land are great.	一个陌生土地的前三分之二是伟大的。
45	It gets kind of weird in the final third.	最后的第三场会有点奇怪
46	Yeah.	对
47	So why did you pick Grok?	那你为什么选Grok?
48	Well, because of the meaning of the word.	因为这个词的意义
49	Yeah.	对
50	To Grok something is to understand it at a very deep level.	对Grok来说,有些事情是在非常深层次上理解它.
51	Yeah.	对
52	To really fundamentally understand something.	真正从根本上理解一些事情。
53	And that's what we're aiming for with our AI.	而这正是我们的目标我们的AI。
54	The stated goal of XAI is to understand the universe.	XAI的公开目标是了解宇宙.
55	Yeah.	对
56	So to really just understand the nature of the universe.	所以真正只是理解宇宙的本质。
57	And even what questions to ask about the universe.	乃至问如何是宇宙.
58	Yeah.	对
59	So that's my goal.	这就是我的目标。
60	I think it's a good goal.	我认为这是一个很好的目标。
61	Okay, so let me ask you some specific questions about that.	好吧,让我问你一些具体的问题。
62	So I played around a lot with large language models.	所以,我玩了很多与大型语言模型。
63	I have some people on my team who built one.	我队里有人造过
64	Actually, we built one out of my writing that I've been using to help me with my new book.	事实上,我们用我写的书做了一本我用来帮我写新书的书
65	So if I come across biblical passages that I can't understand,	所以如果我遇到我无法理解的圣经段落
66	I can use that system to give me a first-pass approximation.	我可以用这个系统给我一个第一通道的近似。
67	And it works quite nicely.	而且效果相当不错。
68	Yeah.	对
69	我也经常使用Grok和ChatGPT
70	And I use them as research assistants.	我把他们当作研究助理
71	And ChatGPT lies a lot, so you have to keep an eye on it.	ChatGPT经常撒谎,所以你必须注意.
72	Well, so I've been thinking about this alignment problem.	我一直在想这个校对问题
73	Alignment problem's a big deal.	校对是件大事
74	I got an idea to run by you, and you tell me what you think about this.	我有一个想法由你运行, 你告诉我你的想法。
75	Well, so there's a golden thread of conversation that constitutes the basis for humanities education,	那么,有一个金线的对话构成人文教育的基础,
76	let's say, that's run across centuries.	这么说吧,这已经跨越几个世纪了
77	And in principle, that concentrates on ideas that have been winnowed	原则上,它集中于已经赢得的理念
78	probably through a quasi-evolutionary process across large spans of time.	可能要经过一个跨越大量时间的准进化过程
79	So you get documents out of that, like the King James Bible, for example.	举个例子,比如詹姆斯国王的圣经。
80	And they're zeroing in on core conceptual structures	在核心概念结构上零入
81	that we don't even necessarily explicitly understand.	我们甚至不一定明白
82	It seems to me that when we take young people	在我看来,当我们采取年轻人
83	and we give them a genuine humanities education,	我们给他们真正的人文教育,
84	we solve the alignment problem for them.	我们解决了他们的对齐问题。
85	Or make it worse.	或令更恶.
86	Well, you do that if it's propagandistic.	好吧,你这样做,如果它是宣传。
87	You can make it much worse.	你可以让事情更糟
88	It often is these days.	经常是现在
89	Yeah, that's pretty much it.	是啊,差不多就是这样。
90	That's also exactly what happens, and inevitably,	这也正是发生,不可避免的,
91	when that unbroken tradition is not transmitted.	当这个没有破裂的传统没有被传播。
92	And so this strikes to something that's very essential,	因此,这个打击一些非常重要的东西,
93	which is, well, what's the difference, let's say,	那么,有什么区别,让我们说,
94	or is there a difference between the Western canon,	或西舟有别,
95	let's say, and the latest woke nonsense?	这么说吧,最近那场闹醒的闹剧?
96	我经常使用GroK, 它没有醒来像ChatGPT,
97	but it's still woke.	但还是醒了
98	It still deviates.	它仍然偏离。
99	So how are you...	你怎么样?
100	Can you address that by...	你能通过...
101	It's just a language model at the moment, let's say.	目前只是一种语言模型,可以说.
102	If it also understood images, if it also understood behavior...	如果它也理解图像,如果它也理解行为...
103	It does.	没错
104	It actually does understand images at this point.	它确实能理解图像
105	Okay, and are those...	好吧,这些是...
106	Is the language model and the image understanding,	是语言模型和图像理解,
107	are they stacked on top of each other?	他们互相堆在一起吗?
108	Because I think that's partly how we triangulate psychologically.	因为我认为我们从心理角度来分析一下
109	We have an imagination, and we have a verbal module,	我们有一个想象, 我们有一个语言模块,
110	but those things have to work in sync, and we also have...	但这些东西必须同步工作, 我们也...
111	It certainly is intended to work in sync.	它当然是为了同步工作。
112	It is intended to be what's called a multimodal model,	它的本意是所谓的多式联运模式,
113	which means understanding text, images, and video, and audio.	这意味着理解文本、图像、视频和音频。
114	Okay, if it understands video, will it start to understand behavior?	好吧,如果它理解视频, 它会开始理解的行为?
115	Yeah.	对
116	All this data that you've collected with your cars,	你用车收集的所有数据
117	so I've been wondering...	所以,我一直在想...
118	I know Tesla is a car company,	我知道特斯拉是汽车公司
119	but when I look at what you do...	但当我看你做什么...
120	Like an AI company as well.	像一个AI公司。
121	Yeah, well, maybe more.	是啊,也许更多。
122	Those aren't cars, those are autonomous robots.	那些不是汽车,是自动机器人。
123	Yeah, they're robots on four wheels.	是啊,他们是机器人四轮。
124	Autonomous robots on four wheels, yeah.	自动机器人在四轮,是的。
125	They just look like a car.	他们只是看起来像一辆车。
126	Right, they're disguised as a car in a sense.	是的,他们伪装成汽车在某种意义上。
127	Disguised as a car, yeah.	伪装成汽车,是的。
128	So what advantage do you have in training Grok,	你在训练葛鲁克有什么好处?
129	given that you have all this real-world data	如果你有这些真实世界的数据
130	that you've gathered from your automobiles?	你从汽车上收集的?
131	We haven't yet applied real-world video from Tesla to Grok yet.	我们还没有应用真实世界的视频从特斯拉到格罗克。
132	So I do want to emphasize that XAI is a fairly new company.	因此,我想强调,XAI是一个相当新的公司。
133	It's just a little over a year old.	才略过年.
134	So we have a lot of catching up to do to companies,	所以,我们有很多赶上公司,
135	relative to companies that have been around	与过去公司的关系
136	for five or ten or twenty years.	五、十年或二十年时间。
137	We're catching up fast.	我们赶得很快
138	I think the velocity of improvement of XAI	我认为XAI的改进速度
139	is faster than any other company out there.	速度比其他公司都快
140	We were just able to install and bring online	我们刚刚可以安装和上网
141	a massive new training center that we,	一个巨大的新的培训中心,我们,
142	as mentioned, were building in Memphis.	如前所述,正在孟菲斯建造。
143	And it's from getting hardware installation	这是从获得硬件安装
144	to beginning training, it was only 19 days.	直到开始训练,才19天
145	And that's the fastest by far that anyone's been able to do that.	这是迄今为止最快的任何人都能做到这一点。
146	So we're moving quickly, but we're still catching up.	所以我们动作很快但我们还是追上来了
147	Catching up to who?	追上谁?
148	We're catching up to, say, Gemini,	我们赶上了,说,双子座,
149	Chatch GPT, Claude, and the others.	查奇・GPT,克劳德和其他人。
150	你觉得Grok...
151	We're catching up fast.	我们赶得很快
152	How do you feel that Grok performs, say,	你觉得格罗克的表现如何?
153	in relationship to Chatch GPT now?	现在和查奇GPT的关系?
154	Well, so the Grok version that's been released	那么,Grok版本已经发布
155	is still based on Grok version 1 training.	仍然基于Grok版本1的训练.
156	We've made several improvements,	我们做了一些改进
157	所以这叫Grok 1.5
158	But the foundation model of Grok	但格罗克的奠基模型
159	is still an order of magnitude weaker than Chatch GPT.	仍然是比Chatch GPT弱的一个数量级。
160	Oh, yes.	对
161	So it's doing quite well,	所以它做的相当不错,
162	given that order of magnitude difference.	鉴于这个数量级的差异。
163	And this new system, how powerful is it	这个新制度多么强大
164	compared, let's say, to Chatch GPT?	跟查奇GPT相比?
165	Well, so Grok 2 actually finished training.	所以Grok 2实际上完成了训练
166	Now, Grok 2 was training with,	格罗克2号正在训练
167	we call it roughly 15,000 GPUs,	我们称之为大约15,000GPU,
168	and they're H100.	他们是H100。
169	So Grok 2 finished training about a month ago.	所以Grok 2大约一个月前完成了训练.
170	We're doing what's called fine-tuning,	我们正在做所谓的微调,
171	fixing bugs and whatnot.	修复虫子什么的。
172	So we'll release Grok 2, which will be,	所以,我们将释放Grok 2,这将是,
173	should be on par with or close to a GPT-4.	与GPT-4相同或接近。
174	And hopefully we release that next month.	希望我们下个月能发布
175	Then what we're doing in the Memphis data center	然后我们在孟菲斯数据中心做的事
176	is we're actually training Grok 3.	我们实际上是在训练Grok 3.
177	So that'll probably finish training	所以,这可能会完成训练
178	in about three or four months,	三四个月后
179	and then there'll be some fine-tuning	然后会有一些微调
180	and bug fixing and whatnot.	和虫修复什么的。
181	And we're hoping to release Grok 3 by December,	我们希望在12月释放Grok 3,
182	and Grok 3 should be the most powerful AI	Grok 3应该是最强大的AI
183	in the world at that point.	那时的世界。
184	So my sense with Chatch GPT,	我对查奇GPT的感觉
185	I've worked with lots of undergraduates	我和很多本科生一起工作过
186	and graduate students.	还有研究生
187	So my sense with Chatch GPT is	所以我对查奇GPT的感觉
188	if you can corner it into behaving properly,	如果你能把它转弯成正常行为
189	that you kind of have something	你有一种东西
190	approximating a team of,	接近一个团队,
191	I would say, master's degree level intelligence	我会说,硕士级的智能
192	and something like that.	和类似的东西。
193	What do you envision for this new,	你对这个新的,
194	well, let's say the new Grok 3?	那么,让我们说新的Grok 3?
195	And then you talked about delving deeper	然后你又说要深入调查
196	into this structure of the universe,	进入宇宙的这个结构,
197	let's say, to answer fundamental questions.	让我们说,回答基本的问题。
198	And you are a remarkably forward-looking person.	而你是一个非常前瞻性的人。
199	So what the hell do you think you're building	你以为你在建什么?
200	with these AI systems?	这些人工智能系统?
201	What is this?	这是什么?
202	Well, I think really what all the AI companies	嗯,我想真的什么所有AI公司
203	are aiming to build is digital superintelligence.	目标是建立数码超级智能。
204	So intelligence that's far smarter than any human.	所以智能比人类聪明得多
205	And then ultimately, an intelligence that is far	最终,一个远方的智能
206	smarter than all humans combined.	比人类加起来还要聪明
207	Now, I want to say, is this a wise thing to do?	现在,我想说,这是明智之举吗?
208	Isn't this dangerous?	这不危险吗?
209	Well, unfortunately, whether we think that or not,	不幸的是不管我们是否这么想
210	it is being done.	正在这样做。
211	So really, from my standpoint,	所以,真的,从我的观点,
212	from the XAI team's standpoint,	从XAI团队的观点来看,
213	we have the choice of being a spectator	我们有选择成为旁观者
214	or a participant.	或与会者。
215	That's life, man.	这就是生活,男人。
216	Yeah, be a spectator or a participant.	对,是旁观者还是参与者?
217	And I think if we're a participant,	我想如果我们是参与者
218	we've got a better chance, hopefully,	希望我们有更好的机会
219	of steering AI in a direction that is beneficial to humanity.	指导大赦国际朝着有益于人类的方向前进。
220	So why do you trust yourself on that front?	那你为什么要相信自己呢?
221	I mean, that's an important question, right?	我的意思是,这是一个重要问题,对不对?
222	I don't trust myself entirely.	我并不完全相信自己。
223	Good.	不错
224	Well, that's...	这...
225	Yes, fair enough.	是的,相当公平。
226	Okay.	摆
227	But you're in an ethical conundrum, right?	但你陷入了道德困境,对吧?
228	Yes, this is an ethical conundrum.	是的,这是一个道德难题。
229	Because you said, well, this is happening.	因为你说,这正在发生。
230	Now, the excuse that something is happening	现在,事情正在发生的借口
231	is not a rationale for participating in it,	这不是参与的理由,
232	but then your next take is, well,	但你的下一个选择是,嗯,
233	you know, we have the chance to do this properly,	你知道,我们有机会做正确的事情,
234	let's say, as opposed to very... Maybe better.	比起非常... 也许更好。
235	Okay.	摆
236	I mean, I think from a moral standpoint,	我的意思是,我认为从道德观点,
237	we really just need to think that maybe we've got a chance	我们真的需要思考也许我们有机会
238	of it being better to some degree	在某种程度上更好
239	than what others are doing.	而不是别人在做的
240	And, you know, we'll strive to avoid	而且,你知道,我们将努力避免
241	some of the pitfalls or directions	一些陷阱或方向
242	that the others are going in,	其他人要进去
243	because the others, from what I've seen,	因为其他人,从我所看到的,
244	do not strive for truth.	不要为真理而奋斗。
245	What do they strive for?	他们为什么呢?
246	They strive for...	他们努力...
247	Well, they strive to give an answer,	他们试图给出一个答案,
248	but they are, I think, trained to be politically correct.	但他们,我认为,是训练政治上是正确的。
249	And the work mind virus is woven in throughout them.	脑电图病毒被植入其中
250	Yeah?	是吗?
251	I'm sure you've seen that.	我敢肯定,你已经看到了。
252	Yeah, definitely.	当然
253	Definitely.	当然
254	You know, my students used to ask me,	我的学生常问我
255	because I've been teaching	因为我一直在教
256	what I've been teaching for about 40 years,	我已经教了40年了
257	and one of the questions they used to ask me	和他们曾经问我的一个问题
258	is how I knew that what I was teaching	我是如何知道我在教什么
259	wasn't just another ideology, right?	不仅仅是另一种意识形态,对不对?
260	Because the postmodern take is,	因为后现代人认为,
261	well, all it is is a plethora of power games,	好吧,它只是大量的权力游戏,
262	and so there's no rank-ordering approaches to the truth	因此,没有排序的方法真相
263	in terms of their ethical suitability,	在道德方面,
264	but that's not the game that you're playing.	但这不是你玩的游戏
265	Right, and obviously I would not agree	对,显然我不同意
266	with that philosophy.	与那个哲学。
267	Why not?	为什么不呢?
268	What's convinced you that that's not	是什么让你相信这不是
269	a useful way of approaching things?	一个有用的方法处理事情?
270	Well, I think you can look at	我觉得你可以看看
271	a given belief system	特定信仰体系
272	and critique it as being likely to	并批评它有可能
273	enhance or decrease enlightenment.	增强或减少启蒙。
274	Will any given belief system	任何给定的信仰系统
275	improve our understanding of the universe?	增进我们对宇宙的理解?
276	Will we learn more things?	我们能学到更多东西吗?
277	Will we achieve a deeper understanding of physics?	我们能否更深入地了解物理学?
278	Right, so that's grounded at least	对啊,这样至少可以了
279	in a scientific framework	在科学框架内
280	from the sounds of it.	从它的声音。
281	I think there are facts about the world.	我认为世界是有事实的。
282	Yes, right.	是的,没错。
283	There are things that are	有些东西
284	extremely likely to be true	绝对有可能是真的
285	versus less likely to be true.	相对不太可能是真的
286	I think if one thinks in terms of probabilities	我想如果从概率来看
287	about any given	关于任何特定
288	axiomatic statement,	直言不讳,
289	then that's why we think about it.	所以我们才会考虑这个
290	Now, some things are	现在,有些事情
291	99.99% to be true,	99.99%属实,
292	you can run experiments,	你可以运行实验,
293	you can confirm them,	你可以确认一下
294	and others	和其他事项
295	perhaps have a low probability of truth,	也许真相的概率很低
296	1% likely to be true,	1%可能是真实的,
297	just using extremes here.	只是用极点
298	But any given statement	但是,任何给定的声明
299	has, I think,	已经,我认为,
300	should be thought of as having	应该认为,
301	unless it's a tautology,	除非是同义词
302	should be thought of as having	应该认为,
303	a probability of being true or untrue	真实或不真实的可能性
304	or a probability	或概率
305	of being relevant to an argument	与某一论点有关
306	or not relevant to an argument.	或与辩论无关。
307	We're just talking about the basics of cogency here.	我们只是谈论康涅狄格的基本。
308	Yeah, well, okay,	是啊,好吧,没关系,
309	so let me put a twist on that too.	所以,让我把一个曲折了。
310	So one of the things that really struck me	所以有件事真的让我印象深刻
311	about your public pronouncements in recent years	关于你近年来的公开声明
312	was your insistence	是你坚持的
313	that we're in a natal crisis	我们陷入了分娩危机
314	and that that's actually a problem.	这其实是一个问题。
315	Well, that's factually true.	事实确实如此
316	Well, it depends whether you think	好吧,这取决于你是否认为
317	the planet would be better off if it was depopulated.	如果地球人口减少,它会更好。
318	Because that's Paul Ehrlich's line.	因为那是保罗·埃利希的台词.
319	Yeah, Paul Ehrlich is a	是的,保罗·埃利希是一个
320	genocidal maniac, as far as I'm concerned.	就我而言,是种族灭绝狂
321	And I think he's a terrible human being.	我认为他是一个可怕的人。
322	Yes, and he's never admitted that he was wrong.	是的,他从来没有承认他错了。
323	And he was unbelievably wrong.	他错了
324	He made a famous bet, you know the bet.	他做了一个著名的赌注,你知道的赌注。
325	Yes, I hate Paul Ehrlich, I just want to be clear about that.	是的,我讨厌保罗・埃利希, 我只是想澄清这一点。
326	I think he's terrible and his books	我觉得他很可怕,还有他的书
327	have done great damage to humanity.	对人类造成了巨大损害。
328	So what, okay,	那又怎样?
329	fine, I talked to a philosopher	好吧,我和哲学家谈过了
330	a while back who was an antinatalist	有段时间以前谁是抗产者
331	trying to get my finger on that.	试图得到我的手指。
332	There was a recent research article published on this too.	最近也发表了一篇关于此事的研究文章。
333	Antinatalists are much more	产前医生多得多
334	likely to show dark tetrad traits.	可能显示深色四面体特征。
335	Machiavellian, psychopathic,	马奇亚维利安,精神病患者,
336	narcissistic, and	自恋,和
337	sadistic, because those first three	虐待,因为前三个
338	weren't enough, right?	还不够,对不对?
339	And so those things are tightly	所以那些东西很紧
340	aligned, especially the best predictor	对齐,特别是最佳预测器
341	with psychopathy for being an antinatalist.	和精神病患者因为是一个抗产者。
342	Sure.	当然
343	Right.	对
344	Well, and the psychopaths are very, very,	嗯,而精神病患者是非常,非常,
345	very self-centred, right?	非常自我中心,对不对?
346	They're like overgrown two-year-olds,	他们就像超大的两岁小孩
347	overgrown aggressive two-year-olds.	过度壮大的两岁小孩
348	So that's not good.	所以,这是不好的。
349	How did you start to	你怎么开始
350	understand that	明白吗?
351	one of the fundamental ethical problems	基本道德问题之一
352	is different than the scientific problem, one of the fundamental	和科学问题不同根本问题之一
353	ethical problems that's plaguing the West	困扰西方的道德问题
354	is this catastrophically low birth rate?	这是灾难性的低出生率吗?
355	And, you know, when you start	当你开始的时候
356	making public pronouncements.	发表公开声明。
357	I'm just observing the numbers.	我只是在观察数字
358	I mean, I noticed this 20	我的意思是,我注意到这个20
359	plus years ago that	加数年前
360	the trend in birth	出生趋势
361	rates for really all countries	实际所有国家的费率
362	past a certain level	超过一定水平
363	of economic development was trending	经济发展趋势
364	to well below replacement,	远低于替换,
365	if not already below replacement, and	如果尚未低于替换值,
366	if you extrapolate the curve,	如果你推导曲线,
367	which one always has to be cautious about extrapolating	总是要小心推断
368	any demographic curve, but if	任何人口曲线,但如果
369	you, so I always preface by saying	你,所以我总是先说
370	if these trends continue,	如果这些趋势继续下去,
371	most	多数
372	countries will dwindle into	国家将逐渐消失
373	insignificance.	示众.
374	They might completely die out.	他们可能会死光
375	So I've been thinking about that in relationship	所以我一直在考虑在关系上
376	to sacred images.	以神圣的影像为主题
377	Okay.	摆
378	Okay, well the sacred	好吧,圣洁的
379	image of masculinity in the West	西方男性形象
380	is a crucifixion, but a man	是一个十字架,但是一个男人
381	who's crucified, but the sacred image of a woman	被钉在十字架上但女人的神圣形象
382	isn't a woman.	不是一个女人。
383	The sacred image of a woman	女人的神圣形象
384	is a woman and an infant.	是一个女人和一个婴儿。
385	是的,这是一个dyad而不是monad。
386	Right, right, right, and	对,对,对,和
387	in the Christian view,	在基督教看来,
388	those two images, you know,	这两个图像,你知道,
389	they vie for supremacy, right?	他们渴望至上对吧?
390	I mean,	我是说...
391	obviously Christ is the superordinate image,	显然基督是超凡的形象,
392	but Mary as the mother of God	但玛利亚是上帝的母亲
393	is the female equivalent.	女性是相当的。
394	And so one of the things I've been playing with	所以,我一直在玩的东西之一
395	at an axiomatic level is the notion	在逻辑层面上是这个概念
396	that unless the feminine	除非是女性,否则,
397	is conceptualized as the combination	概念化为组合
398	of female and infant,	妇女和婴儿;
399	then the culture has lost	那么文化就已经丧失了
400	its attachment to the traditional sacred	传统神圣不可侵犯
401	images and is probably on its way out.	图像,而且可能正在离开。
402	Yeah.	对
403	I think there is, there's	我觉得有,有
404	an argument that	一种论点是:
405	when a culture	当一个文化
406	loses its	输掉
407	religion, that it starts to become	宗教,它开始变成
408	anti-natalist and decline	堕胎和堕胎
409	in numbers	数字
410	and	和
411	potentially disappear.	可能会消失
412	So I've got a hypothesis about that.	所以我有个假设
413	You tell me what you think about this.	告诉我你对此的看法
414	So I've been working this out in my next book	所以我在下一本书里写了这个
415	which is coming out in November.	11月就要出来了
416	So it's an analysis of biblical stories	所以这是对圣经故事的分析
417	and in a way it's an attempt to solve the	在某种程度上,它试图解决
418	alignment problem.	校正问题。
419	Okay, so imagine this, imagine that	好吧,所以想象这个,想象
420	there's a unity of moral purpose	道德目标一致
421	that	那个
422	is conceptualized in the traditional	概念化于传统
423	writings as what should be put in	写作内容
424	the highest place.	这是最高的地方
425	So it's God and	所以这是上帝和
426	in the final analysis	最终分析
427	it's ineffable.	这是无法发挥的。
428	But it is a fundamental	但它是一个根本
429	unification, monotheism.	统一,一神论.
430	Okay, now	好吧,现在
431	here's a hypothesis.	这里有个假设
432	When that collapses	当它崩溃时
433	two things arise to replace	换两样东西
434	it.	这个
435	Okay, one is striving for power	好,一个是争取权力
436	and the other is	而另一个是
437	the untrammeled, what would you	无缝的,你会怎样?
438	call it, the untrammeled dominion	称它为无间断的统治
439	of hedonism and especially	特别是肝脏病
440	on the sexual gratification side.	性满足方面。
441	So it's like if there's no ultimate	所以,这就像如果没有最终
442	unity that's future and	团结就是未来
443	community oriented, that's predicated	面向社区,这是前提
444	on sacrifice, you get a dissolution	牺牲的时候,你就会解散
445	immediately into the next two	马上进入下两个
446	contenders for domination.	争夺统治权的人。
447	And one is, it's about me buddy	首先,这是关于我的哥们
448	and get the hell out of the way.	并获得地狱的出路。
449	And aligned with that is not only	不仅如此
450	is it about me, it's about me	关乎我,关乎我
451	what would you say, subjugated	你会怎么说,征服
452	{\fn黑体\fs22\bord1\shad0\3aHBE\4aH00\fscx67\fscy66\2cHFFFFFF\3cH808080}我最讨厌的幻想
453	Because	因为
454	why would I want power except to do	为什么我要权力除了做
455	exactly what the hell I want whenever I want to.	不管什么时候我想做什么
456	And so part of the	所以,一部分
457	problem with the idea	这个想法有问题
458	of people like Dawkins,	像道金斯这样的人,
459	so Dawkins and the atheists...	所以道金斯和无神论者...
460	I've had many conversations with Dawkins over the years.	我和道金斯谈过很多次了
461	You have eh?	你有吗?
462	Oh we're going to do a podcast	哦,我们要做播客
463	together, which I'm very	在一起,我非常喜欢
464	looking forward to.	期待着。
465	But I'm very	但我非常喜欢
466	curious about this issue because	好奇这个问题,因为
467	his idea, and it's kind of an enlightenment	他的想法, 这是一种启蒙
468	idea, is that we dispensed with the idiot	想法,是我们摆脱了白痴
469	superstition of the past and everyone	迷信过去和每个人
470	would become, you know,	会变成,你知道,
471	Baconian rationalists.	培根理性主义者.
472	And that seemed...	这似乎...
473	Unfortunately not.	可惜没有
474	No, well what seems	不,什么看起来
475	to me to happen much more likely	对我来说,更可能发生
476	is that power and hedonism rise to take	是权力和享乐主义的崛起
477	place of what was holy, so to speak.	可以说是神圣的地方
478	You know, and Nietzsche warned about that	你知道,尼采警告过
479	when he proclaimed the death of God to begin with.	当时,他宣布了真主的死亡。
480	He thought nihilism would also enter the	他认为虚无主义也会进入
481	realm, right?	王国,对不对?
482	Nihilism, power and hedonism.	虚无主义,权力主义和享乐主义.
483	As the	作为
484	triumvirate of replacement	替换比例
485	gods.	天呐
486	And so, I've been	所以,我曾经
487	trying to puzzle out in this new book	试图在新书中解析
488	the way the Biblical corpus	《圣经》的方式
489	is conceptualizing	正在构思
490	what's properly placed in the highest place.	最好放在最高处
491	And it does, that's part of the reason I	没错,这就是原因之一
492	was asking you about the natalist issue	问你关于分娩问题
493	because you figured out 20 years	因为你想出了20年
494	ago, that's a long time before anybody had been	之前,这是很长一段时间任何人曾经是
495	talking about this.	谈论这个。
496	Yeah, yeah.	对对
497	And then you also did publicly	然后你也公开做了
498	proclaim it at a time when	在那个时候宣布
499	the insistence,	坚持,
500	the moral insistence was all on the side	道德的坚持是站在一边的
501	of, you know, Jane Goodall's pronouncements	简·古道尔的声明
502	that if we don't reduce the	如果我们不减少
503	population of the planet dramatically, that	地球人口急剧增加
504	the nature goddess is going to be	自然女神将会是
505	upset, which is also a very, very old	烦恼,这也是一个非常,非常老
506	idea, not a very good one.	想法,不是一个非常好的。
507	So	这么说
508	и┣
509	about your intuition there.	关于你的直觉。
510	Like	喜欢
511	that's a long time ago.	这是很久以前的事了
512	And so, how did	所以,怎样
513	you cotton on to the fact that that	你继续说
514	antagonistic attitude towards	对抗态度:
515	birth that's embedded in our culture	我们文化中蕴藏的诞生
516	now was something that should be called out	瞷琌赣ㄓ
517	and that was pathological?	这是病理学吗?
518	Well, I mean, I should perhaps go back	我也许该回去了
519	to what is the foundation of	对什么是基础
520	my philosophy	我的哲学
521	because	因为
522	that I think helps	我觉得有帮助
523	build up, you know, to	积聚起来,你知道,
524	explain my actions.	解释我的行为。
525	So they,	所以他们
526	when I was, I don't know,	当我是,我不知道,
527	about 11 or 12 years old,	大约11或12岁,
528	I	一、导言
529	had somewhat of an existential crisis	发生了一些生存危机
530	because there just	因为...
531	didn't seem to be any meaning	似乎没有任何意义
532	in the world, like	在世界上,喜欢
533	no meaning to life.	没有生命的意义。
534	And so	这样
535	I actually read,	其实我读了
536	tried to read all the religious texts.	试图阅读所有宗教文本。
537	At that age?	那年纪?
538	Yes.	对
539	So I was a voracious reader	所以我是一个贪婪的读者
540	as a kid.	作为一个孩子。
541	So	这么说
542	I, you know,	我,你知道吗,
543	obviously read the Bible,	显然读了圣经
544	I read the Koran,	我读了古兰经
545	the Torah, you know, the	陀罗,你知道,
546	various,	各种
547	but on the Hindu side,	但在印度教方面,
548	just trying to understand all these things.	只是想了解这一切
549	And obviously	很明显
550	as a 12-year-old, you're not really going to understand	作为一个12岁的孩子,你不会真正理解
551	these things super well, but I've just	这些事情非常好,但我刚刚
552	Well, you understood it well enough to have an existential	好吧,你明白的足够拥有存在
553	crisis when you were 11 or 12.	你11岁或12岁时的危机
554	Well, that's a start.	嗯,这是一个开始。
555	Does anyone have an answer that makes sense?	有人有合理答案吗?
556	And then I started getting into	然后我开始进入
557	the philosophy books	哲学书籍
558	and I read	我读了
559	quite a bit of Schopenhauer and Nietzsche	有点许本豪尔和尼采
560	and	和
561	which is quite depressing to read as a kid.	小时候看书很沮丧
562	Yeah, you might say that.	是的,你可以这么说。
563	That's depressing as an adult, but	大人时很沮丧,但是...
564	and	和
565	none of them really seem to have	没有一个真的有
566	to me, answers that	对我来说,答案是
567	resonated at least to me.	至少对我有共鸣
568	But then I read	但后来我读了
569	Douglas Adams' Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy	道格拉斯·亚当斯的"银河旅行指南"
570	which is really a book on philosophy disguised as humor.	这是一本关于哲学的书伪装成幽默。
571	And what	还有什么
572	the point that Adams tries to make there	亚当斯想达到的目的
573	is that	这是
574	we don't actually know all the answers, obviously.	很明显,我们并不知道所有的答案。
575	In fact, we don't even know what	事实上,我们甚至不知道什么
576	the right questions are to ask.	正确的问题就是问。
577	That's where he has	这就是他去过的地方
578	this, if you've read	这个,如果你读过
579	the book, Earth	书,地球
580	is actually a giant computer to	其实是巨型计算机
581	understand the answer to	理解答案为:
582	the question, what is the meaning of life?	问题是,生命的意义是什么?
583	And comes up with the answer 42.	并得出答案42。
584	And I feel like	我觉得
585	what does that mean?	这是什么意思?
586	You don't understand that	你不明白吗
587	the real, the thing that's going to take	真实的, 事情将要采取
588	a computer far more powerful than Earth	电脑比地球强大得多
589	is to understand what question to ask.	是要了解要问的问题
590	That's simply the wrong question.	那只是个错误的问题
591	So was that the key realization that	关键是意识到
592	the question was the thing?	问题是什么?
593	Yeah, that was the fundamental turning point.	是啊,这是根本的转折点。
594	So that's very interesting, because	这很有趣因为...
595	one of the things that you see constantly	你经常看到的东西之一
596	portrayed in redemptive hero	用红色的英雄形象描绘
597	myths across the world is that the adventure	世界各地的神话是冒险
598	is the thing and that the search is the thing	是东西, 搜索是东西
599	rather than there being	而不是存在
600	a final answer as absurd as 42	最后的答案是荒谬的,像42
601	might be.	也许吧
602	There's no,	没有
603	the conclusive answer is something like	最终的答案是类似
604	deep engagement in the process.	深入参与这一进程。
605	So I'll give you an example of that.	所以,我给你们一个例子。
606	So in the Sermon on the Mount,	在山上的赛蒙河里
607	the Sermon on the Mount's a very	山上的赛门是一个非常
608	detailed set of instructions.	详细的指示。
609	So there's three parts to it.	故有三谛.
610	The first	第一个
611	is aim at the highest thing	是目标在最高的东西
612	that you can possibly conceive of and keep modifying	你可以设想和不断修改
613	that so your aim gets better.	这样你的目标就更好了
614	So that's number one.	所以这是第一。
615	Number two is make the presumption that other people	二是假设其他人
616	have the same intrinsic value as you do.	和你一样有内在价值
617	Well, we have to be careful about that one.	好吧,我们得小心那一个。
618	Okay, let's discuss that.	好吧,让我们讨论一下。
619	But it's a, what would you say?	但它是一个,你会说什么?
620	It's a recognition	承认
621	of the universalist	世界主义者
622	value of everyone who's made in the	每个人的价值
623	image of God.	上帝的形象。
624	It's something like that.	谓之'.
625	But the third thing is, once you	但第三件事是一旦你
626	do those two things, you can concentrate	做这两件事,你可以专心
627	on the moment.	现在。
628	See, and that seems	你看,这似乎
629	to be, even technically, you can	即使在技术上,你也可以
630	think about this neuropsychologically.	想想这个神经心理学。
631	So	这么说
632	if you're looking for meaning, meaning	如果你在寻找意义,意思
633	is a form of incentive reward.	是一种奖励
634	And incentive reward is dopaminergically	奖励是多巴胺的
635	mediated.	调解。
636	And incentive reward occurs	奖励就会出现
637	in relationship to advancement	与进步有关的
638	towards a goal, which is a form	目标,即
639	of entropy minimization,	尽量减少py,
640	as it turns out, according to Carl Friston,	根据卡尔·弗里斯顿的说法
641	who knows this sort of thing.	谁知道这种事情。
642	Entropy is the ultimate boss battle.	Entropy是终极的老大战役.
643	Yeah, right.	没错
644	Right, right, right.	对,对,对
645	Well, negative emotion	负面情绪
646	signifies the emergence of entropy	表示 en的出现
647	and positive emotion on the dopaminergic	和对多巴胺的正面情感
648	side signals its reduction.	侧面表示它的减少。
649	But there's something that's more complex	但有些事情比较复杂
650	there because the higher the goal	因为目标越高
651	that you're trying to attain, the more	你试图达到, 越多
652	intrinsic value each step towards it	内在价值每一个步骤
653	comprises, and that's	包括,这是
654	neuropsychologically accurate.	神经心理学准确性。
655	And so	这样
656	part of the	页:1
657	wisdom of the Sermon on the Mount is	赛蒙山上的智慧
658	that if you posit	如果你假设
659	the highest imaginable	最高可视性
660	goal, then any step towards it is	目标,然后任何步骤
661	that captures your attention	这吸引你的注意力
662	is also deeply meaningful.	也非常有意义。
663	And so that's	这就是
664	an answer to what the meaning is of	答案是什么意义
665	process, rather than, say, something like	过程,而不是,比如说,
666	42.	42. 联合国
667	And you said, it seems	你说,似乎
668	to me that you were intimating that your discovery	对我说你的发现
669	through Adams that the question was the thing	通过亚当斯,问题就是
670	was key to the resolution	是决议的关键
671	of your existential crisis.	你的生存危机。
672	That's correct.	没错
673	Okay, so that's part of the reason	好吧,这就是原因之一
674	that you're motivated to, say, build Grok	你被激发,比如说,建造Grok
675	3 and look in, look	三,看进去,看
676	deeper.	更深一点
677	To understand.	为了理解
678	Yeah,	对
679	yeah, yeah.	对,对。
680	To understand the universe.	来了解宇宙
681	Okay, so once	好吧,那么就一次吧,这样
682	how old were you when you figured that, when you	那时你几岁了?
683	figured out that the question- 13 or something?	13号还是什么的?
684	What did that do to you?	这对你有什么影响?
685	Well, I was	嗯,我曾经是
686	a lot happier after that	之后会更快乐
687	because now it's like, okay,	因为现在它就像,好吧,
688	well, I'm just going to accept that we are ignorant	我只是要承认我们是无知的
689	of a great many things.	很多东西。
690	Yeah.	对
691	And we wish to be less ignorant.	我们希望少一点无知。
692	And anything we can do	以及我们能做的
693	that will improve our understanding	这会增进我们的理解
694	of the universe and make us less ignorant	和让我们少无知
695	and have a deeper understanding of the	更深入地了解
696	universe and even more questions to answer	宇宙,甚至更多的问题要回答
697	to ask about the answer that is the	问答案是
698	universe, which is Adams' central	宇宙,这是亚当斯的中心
699	point, is	点,是
700	good.	不错
701	And that was good enough	这已经足够了
702	to resolve that crisis.	解决这一危机。
703	It was.	没错
704	It was	这是
705	for me, at least.	至少为了我
706	Yeah.	对
707	And	还有
708	so, like, is this a religion?	所以,像,这是宗教吗?
709	I don't know.	师曰.
710	Maybe	也许
711	it is.	没错
712	But I think it's a good one.	但我认为这是一个很好的。
713	I'd call it the religion of curiosity.	我会称之为好奇的宗教。
714	Yeah.	对
715	Well,	那个
716	the ancient	古老的
717	god of the Mesopotamians, his name	美索不达米亚人的神,他的名字
718	was Marduk, and he was the	是马尔杜克,他是
719	best defense against ensuing chaos	最好的防御接下来的混乱
720	and state corruption.	和国家的腐败。
721	Okay, so that's how he was conceptualized.	好吧,所以这就是他的概念。
722	Okay, Marduk had eyes all	好吧,马杜克的眼睛都长了
723	the way around his head.	绕着他的头
724	Okay.	摆
725	Because he	因为他
726	paid attention.	请注意。
727	Right.	对
728	And he spoke magic words.	说出神奇的话
729	Okay.	摆
730	Right.	对
731	And he was literally, for the Mesopotamians,	他从字面上说, 对于美索不达米亚人,
732	he was the agent that revitalized the	他就是那个重振
733	tyrannical state and overcame evil,	暴虐的国度和恶行,
734	and also the force that	以及这股力量
735	dispensed with chaos and built	摆脱混乱,建造
736	something magnificent and	伟大的东西
737	cosmic out of it.	宇宙从它。
738	Right.	对
739	Yeah, yeah.	对对
740	Sounds like a force	听起来像一种力量
741	for good.	永远
742	Yeah, yeah, yeah.	对,对,对
743	While the Mesopotamian emperor,	当美索不达米亚皇帝,
744	so his job was to embody	所以他的工作就是体现
745	that spirit on earth.	灵魂在地球上。
746	And they used to take	他们曾经拿
747	him out of the city on New Year's Eve,	在除夕夜他出城时
748	strip him of his kingly	剥了他的王位
749	clothing, humiliate him,	穿衣服,羞辱他,
750	they slapped him, the priests, and then they'd	他们打了他,牧师,然后他们
751	ask him to confess	请他认罪
752	all the ways that he hadn't been	所有他没有过的方式
753	a good Marduk, attentive	一个好马杜克,小心
754	and speaking properly in the previous	和在前一个
755	year.	年数。
756	And that's how they renewed the cosmos	他们就是这样更新宇宙的
757	every year in Mesopotamia.	每年在美索不达米亚。
758	That's our New Year celebration	这是我们的新年庆典
759	is a derivation of that,	由此而来,
760	out with the old and in with the new.	与旧和与新。
761	And the Egyptians,	埃及人,
762	they worshiped the eye.	他们崇拜眼睛
763	Right, you've seen that famous eye.	对,你见过那双著名的眼睛
764	You're all seeing Eye of Horus?	你们都看到荷鲁斯之眼了吗?
765	They're all seeing Eye of Horus.	他们都看到了荷鲁斯之眼
766	That's the antidote to the Eye of Sauron,	那是对索伦之眼的解药
767	by the way.	顺便说一句
768	Right, because you	对,因为你
769	get, if you don't use	得到,如果你不使用
770	that vision, if	如果... 那个幻象...
771	each citizen doesn't use that vision,	每个公民都不使用这种观点,
772	it's replaced by the totalitarian, all	被极权主义所取代
773	seeing eye.	看着眼睛
774	Right.	对
775	Right, so that's a hell of a	对,所以这是地狱
776	thing to know.	事情来知道。
777	Okay, so that	好吧,这样
778	okay, so that's cool.	好吧,所以这很酷。
779	So I wondered,	所以我觉得
780	I see, I see, because I wondered what's	我明白了,我明白了,因为我想知道什么是
781	motivated you, because you push in so many	促使你,因为你推这么多
782	directions simultaneously.	方向同步。
783	You have to	你必须
784	be really highly motivated to do that.	非常有积极性
785	And so you figured out that	所以,你发现
786	the question, in a sense,	问题,从某种意义上来说,
787	was the answer.	答案就是这个
788	Yeah,	对
789	the question, or	问题,或
790	another way that	另一种方式
791	seeking greater enlightenment	寻求更大的启蒙
792	and a better understanding of	和更好地理解
793	the universe, and more questions to ask	宇宙,还有更多的问题
794	about it, is something that	关于它,是的东西
795	we can continue to	我们可以继续
796	do as a civilization	做一个文明
797	for a very long	很久没见了
798	time.	时间。
799	Yeah, likely forever.	是啊,可能是永远。
800	Right, exactly.	没错
801	Depending on how powerful Grok turns out	要看格罗克的实力
802	to be.	成为。
803	Yeah, so	对,所以
804	that's, so then	这么说吧
805	I thought, okay, I'll work on	我想,好吧,我会工作
806	things that	那些东西
807	improve our understanding of the universe.	增进我们对宇宙的理解。
808	Now,	现在,
809	at a base level,	在基础一级,
810	well, this is why	这就是为什么
811	I actually think we want a population increase,	我认为我们想要增加人口
812	because	因为
813	population increase	人口增长
814	means that there are more people	意味着有更多的人
815	that we've expanded	说我们已经扩大了
816	the scale.	缩放。
817	More brains, man.	更多的大脑,男人。
818	Yeah, we've expanded the scale	是的,我们扩大了规模
819	of consciousness to the degree that	意识的程度
820	there are different cultures, we've expanded the scope	有不同的文化,我们已经扩大了范围
821	of consciousness, so that there's	意识,所以有
822	Okay, so I read	好吧,我读了
823	something here.	这里的东西。
824	I talked to this gentleman	我跟这位先生谈过了
825	who'd done a biography of Marx,	他写过马克思的传记
826	and he went and	然后他去了,然后,
827	looked at Marx's poetry and drama	看马克思的诗歌和戏剧
828	that he wrote before he wrote The Communist	他在写"共产党"之前写的
829	Manifesto, and he found out something very	宣言,他发现了一些非常
830	interesting.	有趣,你喜欢我
831	He found	他发现
832	out that Marx's favorite	马克思最喜欢的
833	quote from Goethe	从歌德引言
834	was a statement by Mephistopheles.	是梅菲斯托菲斯的声明
835	It's a very specific statement,	这是一个非常具体的说法,
836	and it's a very key	它是一个非常关键
837	statement.	语句。
838	Mephistopheles'	梅菲斯托菲尔斯
839	motivation, so Lucifer's	动机,所以路西法
840	motivation,	动机,
841	is predicated on this argument,	根据这一论点,
842	said, consciousness	说,意识
843	is nothing but consciousness of pain	只有痛苦意识
844	and misery, life is short	和苦难,生命是短暂的
845	and brutal and pointless,	残酷和无意义的,
846	therefore it would be better if	因此,如果
847	consciousness itself was eradicated.	意识本身被消灭。
848	Sounds like Hobbes.	听起来像霍布斯。
849	I had	我有过
850	a little Yorkshire Terrier who	一个小约克郡泰瑞尔
851	was	当时是
852	nasty, brutish, and short,	肮脏,粗鲁,又短
853	so I named him Hobbes.	所以我叫他霍布斯。
854	Perfect.	不错
855	Well, I think it's even	嗯,我想这是平
856	deeper than Hobbes, because Hobbes seemed	比霍布斯更深,因为霍布斯似乎
857	to understand that life	来理解生活
858	without social order would degenerate	没有社会秩序,就会堕落
859	into that, but the Mephistopheles'	惟有麦菲斯托菲尔人,
860	credo is that	信条是
861	consciousness itself is an evil	意识本身是邪恶的
862	that should be eradicated, because it produces	应该根除,因为它产生
863	suffering.	受苦受难。
864	That was Marx's	那是马克思的
865	favorite.	最喜欢的。
866	It is	没错
867	the very definition of crazy, right?	疯狂的定义,对不对?
868	It's the definition of the adversarial spirit.	这是对抗精神的定义.
869	Now, your	现在,你的
870	hypothesis, your	假设,你的
871	axiom, let's say, is that that's wrong	这么说吧,这是不对的
872	and that consciousness should be...	意识应该是...
873	So then we	所以,我们
874	say, so why should	说,所以为什么
875	consciousness be expanded	增强意识
876	if it's nothing but consciousness of suffering?	如果只是痛苦意识的话?
877	And your answer to that was...	而你的答案是...
878	This is obviously false.	这显然是错误的。
879	Okay, not so obvious.	好吧,没那么明显。
880	Lots of people suffer, like lots of	很多人会受苦,就像很多
881	people are suicidal and nihilistic, and so	人们是自杀和虚无,所以
882	you had that crisis of	你有过那种危机
883	faith, let's say, when you were 11 or 12,	这么说吧当你11岁或12岁的时候
884	an existential crisis,	生存危机,
885	but you resolved it.	但你解决了它。
886	Meaning of life crisis.	生命危机的意义。
887	Right, right.	对,对。
888	No, I think it's just obviously false	不,我觉得这很明显是假的
889	that people...	这些人...
890	While there are people who are very sad, there are also	虽然有些人很伤心,但也有人
891	people who are very happy, and we go through	快乐的人,我们经历
892	sad and happy moments, every human being does.	悲哀和快乐的瞬间,每一个人都这样做。
893	So it's	所以这是
894	an absurd	荒谬的
895	and obviously false	很明显是假的
896	statement that life is merely suffering.	说生命只是痛苦
897	I mean, that is just a	我的意思是,这只是一个
898	ridiculously false statement.	荒谬的虚假陈述。
899	So one of the things I've	所以,我有一个东西
900	tried to do is to understand, so	试着理解,所以
901	there are	有个
902	a limited number of things that are	有限数量的东西
903	undeniably real, and pain is	不可否认真实,痛苦是
904	one of them.	其中一个
905	Yes, like my back hurts a little.	是的,好像我的背有点疼
906	Yes.	对
907	That's because you were up till five in the morning.	那是因为你早上才睡到五点
908	No, I just have some injuries, whatever.	不,我只是有些伤,什么的。
909	From wrestling?	从摔跤?
910	From	从
911	I think some childhood injuries	我觉得有些小伤
912	that...	那个...
913	Although the final	虽然最后
914	thing that caused some	导致一些
915	back and shoulder injuries was	背部和肩部受伤
916	и
917	foolishly fighting the world champion	愚蠢地与世界冠军搏斗
918	wrestler and charging him	摔跤手并指控他
919	at full speed to knock him over.	以全速击倒他。
920	Which I did succeed in doing, but...	我确实做到了,但是...
921	But you paid a price for it.	但你为此付出了代价。
922	A very high price.	一个很高的价格。
923	Carnivore diet will fix that.	食肉饮食能治此.
924	The what, sorry?	什么,对不起?
925	The carnivore diet will fix that?	食肉饮食能解决吗?
926	Look, I like meat.	我喜欢肉
927	I'm pro meat.	我是职业肉。
928	I don't think the carnivore	我不觉得肉食店
929	diet is going to fix this particular issue.	饮食会解决这个问题。
930	My wife had an injury of 40 years	我老婆受伤四十年了
931	and it resolved in two years	两年后就解决了
932	on the carnivore diet.	在食肉饮食。
933	If you just eat steak or something?	如果你只是吃牛排什么的吗?
934	All beef.	所有牛肉。。。
935	I'm a pro...	我是一个职业...
936	I like meat.	我喜欢肉
937	But I think this is...	但我认为这是...
938	I think I'll probably need an operation or something.	我想我可能需要手术什么的
939	I'd try the carnivore diet first.	我先吃肉食节食
940	Anyways, that did happen to her.	不管怎么说,她的确遇到这种事
941	She couldn't lift her left arm	她不能举起左臂
942	above here.	在这里。
943	It took 40 years	花了40年时间
944	and in two years it resolved.	两年后就解决了
945	So that was something to see.	所以,这是东西看到。
946	It also rejuvenated her physically in a variety	也让她身体恢复了活力
947	of different ways that were quite miraculous	以不同的方式,是相当神奇的
948	to watch.	观看。
949	And that hasn't stopped.	而那并没有停止。
950	So that's a weird thing.	所以,这是一个奇怪的事情。
951	And I would have never believed it if I hadn't seen	如果我没有看到,我绝不会相信
952	this because it's so preposterous.	因为这太荒谬了
953	Anyways, I'm not going to	总之,我不会
954	proselytize about the carnivore diet.	宣说食肉饮食.
955	Okay, okay.	好,好,好,我们走
956	Now, let's go back to AI	现在,让我们回到AI
957	if you don't mind.	如果你不介意的话。
958	So you were involved	所以你也参与其中了
959	in the project that Sam Altman runs	在萨姆·阿尔特曼运行的项目中
960	now.	现在
961	OpenAI?	奥普纳?
962	I was one of the principal co-founders	我是主要的创始人之一
963	of OpenAI.	(原始内容存档于2018-09-21). OpenAI.
964	In fact, I named it.	事实上,我给它起的名字。
965	So what the hell happened?	到底发生了什么?
966	It was my idea.	这是我的主意。
967	OpenAI的起源是
968	that I was very close	我非常亲近
969	与拉里·佩奇(英语:Larry Page).
970	He was one of my best friends.	他是我最好的朋友之一。
971	And in fact,	事实上,
972	I'd stay at his house because I'd spend	我会留在他家因为我花
973	half the week in the Bay Area running	湾区半周运行
974	Tesla and half in	特斯拉和一半进入
975	洛杉矶运营SpaceX.
976	And for the longest	而且最长
977	time, I never even had a house in the Bay Area.	我连湾区的房子都没有
978	I would just	我会
979	stay at friends' places.	待在朋友的住处
980	If they had a spare	如果他们有备用的
981	room, I'd stay there.	房间,我会呆在那里。
982	If they didn't, I'd sleep on	如果他们没有,我会睡在
983	the couch.	沙发。
984	I think it's very funny	我觉得这很有趣
985	that you stayed on the couch.	在沙发上呆着呢
986	I think that's very funny.	我觉得这很有趣
987	Yeah, yeah.	对对
988	I don't think I cast that often,	我不认为我经常投球,
989	I didn't have a house for	我没有房子
990	more than a decade, so I would just	十多年了,所以我会
991	rotate through friends' places, which is a great	通过朋友的地方旋转,这是伟大的
992	way to catch up with friends.	如何赶上朋友。
993	Yeah, right.	没错
994	And so I would have these conversations	所以我会有这些谈话
995	with Larry Page long into the night about	和赖瑞漫长的夜晚
996	AI safety.	人工智能安全。
997	And I just grew increasingly concerned	我只是越来越担心
998	that Larry was not	拉里没有
999	sufficiently concerned about AI safety.	足够关心AI的安全。
1000	And at one point,	而一度,
1001	he did call me a speciest.	他确实叫我一个物种。
1002	Yes, you are one.	是的,你是一个。
1003	Yes.	对
1004	Yes, that's, I guess, correctly labeled.	是的,我想,这是正确的标签。
1005	Yes.	对
1006	And he fully admits,	他完全承认,
1007	there were other people around when he did that,	当他这么做的时候周围还有其他人
1008	nor does he attempt to deny it,	他没有否认它,
1009	that I'm a speciest in	我是一个物种
1010	favor of humans instead of machines.	偏爱人类而不是机器
1011	As lice, compared to lice, for example.	以虱为例,与虱相比.
1012	More like relative to	更像是相对
1013	digital intelligence.	数字智能.
1014	Oh yeah, that's even worse.	哦,是的,这更糟糕。
1015	His view is that digital intelligence	他的观点是数字智能
1016	should be, you know,	应该,你知道,
1017	I mean,	我是说...
1018	Larry's view	拉里的观点
1019	is,	这是,
1020	if I'm not mistaken, is that	如果我没搞错,是不是
1021	ultimately we will all upload our minds	我们最终都会上传思想
1022	to the computer, and everyone	对电脑,和每个人
1023	will just be robots.	会只是机器人。
1024	Yeah.	对
1025	See, there's	看到没?
1026	not much difference between that and the death of	这和死亡没什么区别
1027	humanity.	人类
1028	Well, yeah,	没错
1029	I think that's...	我觉得...
1030	Because whatever we'd be then, it wouldn't be what we are now.	因为不管我们是什么样的人都不再是我们现在的样子了
1031	Right.	对
1032	We pay a price for what we are	我们付出了代价
1033	now, and that's the price of our	现在,这就是我们的代价
1034	intrinsic limitations, and that is a	内在限制,即
1035	difficult, bitter, let's say, pill to swallow.	难苦不如说吃药吃
1036	But I also think,	但我也认为,
1037	so I've thought recently, you know,	所以我最近想, 你知道,
1038	how do you know that something's	你怎么知道有什么东西
1039	real?	真的吗?
1040	Death makes things real.	死亡让事情变得真实
1041	Sure.	当然
1042	And so if you eradicate	所以如果你消灭
1043	death, it seems to me that in some	死亡,在我看来,在某些
1044	fundamental level, you also eradicate	基本水平,你也可以消灭
1045	reality itself.	现实本身。
1046	And I haven't figured out the connection there.	我还不知道那里有什么联系
1047	There is an important...	有一个重要的...
1048	Death does	死亡确实如此
1049	play an important role.	发挥重要的作用。
1050	Because I think you really could	因为我觉得你真的可以
1051	evolve humans to live much longer,	进化人类活得更长,
1052	or most creatures to live much longer, but there's	或大多数生物活得更长,但有
1053	over time,	随着时间的推移,
1054	evolution,	进化,
1055	do you believe in evolution,	你相信进化论吗?
1056	has	已经
1057	found that	发现
1058	it's better for organisms	对生物来说更好
1059	to have a finite life,	以有生之年,
1060	and that	还有,
1061	death brings renewal,	死亡带来新生,
1062	essentially.	基本上说
1063	And I think	我觉得
1064	we do need to be cautious about	我们确实需要谨慎
1065	trying to solve longevity	试图解决长寿
1066	in sort of a	有点像
1067	live forever type sense, because I think our	因为我认为我们
1068	society, our culture, would	社会,我们的文化,将会
1069	ossify, and the people in power	和掌权的人民
1070	would always remain in power.	将永远保持权力。
1071	Ron, you wouldn't...	罗恩你不会...
1072	You know, if you had, let's say,	你知道,如果你有, 让我们说,
1073	you apprehended a 10,000	你抓了一万个
1074	year span of consciousness with no sleep,	一年无眠的意识期
1075	I don't know what the hell	我不知道什么地狱
1076	you'd be if that was who you were,	如果这就是你是谁,
1077	but you wouldn't be human.	但你不会是人类。
1078	And then	礛
1079	we also don't understand that,	我们也不明白,
1080	see, part of the problem, I think, with the	看,问题的一部分,我想,与
1081	perspective that the technologists	技术专家的观点
1082	are taking with regards to human	在人类方面
1083	existence is that	存在是
1084	there's a reductionism there	那儿有贬低主义
1085	that's something, it's	就是这样,这是
1086	something like, there's no difference	一样,没有区别
1087	between us and the gist of our	我们之间和我们的重点
1088	linguistic network,	语言网络,
1089	or something like that.	或者类似的东西。
1090	Like, whatever	随便吧
1091	we are as conscious beings is a hell	我们就像有意识的人一样是地狱
1092	of a lot deeper than the patterns	比图案深得多
1093	of thought that make up our cortical	组成我们皮层的思想
1094	existence.	存在。
1095	Consciousness is way	意识是道
1096	deeper than cortical existence.	比皮质生存更深
1097	Maybe.	也许
1098	Yeah, maybe.	是啊,也许。
1099	I do think you have to ask this sort of	我认为你必须问这种
1100	gradient question of	梯度问题
1101	where	地点
1102	does	对
1103	consciousness arise?	意识出现?
1104	Now I've seen a sort of traditional	现在我看到了一种传统
1105	Christian	基督教徒
1106	faith, you would say that, well, there's a	相信,你会说,嗯,有一个
1107	soul that inhabits the body, and	灵魂栖息在身体中,
1108	that's the consciousness, perhaps.	也许这就是意识
1109	But, you know,	但是,你知道吗,
1110	we all	我们都
1111	started as a single cell.	开始为一个单单元格。
1112	So, is that single cell conscious?	那单细胞有意识吗?
1113	I mean, it doesn't look very, you can't	我的意思是,它看起来不太,你不能
1114	talk to it, it's just a cell.	和它说话,它只是一个细胞。
1115	It differentiates very strangely	它的区别非常奇怪
1116	for us.	为了我们
1117	It has that teleology	它有那种电传学
1118	built into it that's very difficult	里面装的很困难
1119	to understand.	来理解
1120	But conscious it seems	但意识似乎
1121	not to be.	不是这样的
1122	Not at that point.	那时不行
1123	It doesn't seem to be conscious.	似无意识.
1124	So where,	所以,在哪里,
1125	as	作为
1126	it divides into many more cells,	它分裂成更多的细胞,
1127	eventually reaching to	最终达到
1128	an adult human has	一个成年人类
1129	30 to 40 trillion cells.	30到40万亿细胞.
1130	So where	所以从哪里
1131	does	对
1132	consciousness arise?	意识出现?
1133	Does it grow	它会成长吗?
1134	slowly?	慢慢来?
1135	Is there a step change?	有步骤改变吗?
1136	And	还有
1137	you know, I tend to	你知道,我倾向于
1138	generally believe in physics.	普遍相信物理学.
1139	And	还有
1140	You seem to have done pretty well with that belief, by the way.	顺便说一句,你似乎做的很好
1141	Yes.	对
1142	Well,	那个
1143	I have a saying that physics	我有一个说法,物理学
1144	is the law and everything else is a recommendation.	是法律,其他一切都是一个建议。
1145	Because people can	因为人们可以
1146	break,	中断
1147	and do break,	你应当破裂,
1148	man-made laws, but you have to	人造法律,但你必须
1149	see someone break laws of physics.	看到有人违反物理定律
1150	you know, so if you	狦
1151	have beliefs	拥有信仰
1152	that are incompatible with a	与
1153	rocket getting to orbit, the rocket will	火箭进入轨道,火箭会
1154	not get to orbit.	没有进入轨道。
1155	Right, right, right.	对,对,对
1156	Physics is a harsh	物理学很严厉
1157	judge.	评委。
1158	Yes, definitely.	是的,当然。
1159	Do you think these LLMs,	你觉得这些LLM,
1160	like, do you think that any	喜欢,你认为任何
1161	of the machinery that you've interacted with	与你互动的机器
1162	is showing anything, signs of anything	显示什么,任何迹象
1163	that might be equated to consciousness?	可能等同于意识?
1164	I mean, the LLMs are remarkable,	我的意思是,LLMS是惊人的,
1165	right, and they certainly pass the Turing	他们必定要通过《讨拉特》,
1166	test as far as I'm concerned.	就我而言,测试。
1167	Yes, they pass the Turing test.	是的,他们通过了图灵测试。
1168	So, from a	所以,从一个
1169	testing standpoint, I think we will,	测试观点,我想我们会,
1170	if we're not there already, we	如果我们不在那里,我们
1171	soon will be where	马上就会到
1172	you would not be able to tell that	你将无法告诉
1173	you're interacting with a computer.	你在和电脑互动
1174	That's coming right away, man.	马上就来了,伙计。
1175	In fact, probably,	事实上,也许
1176	sort of here, unless you're	在这里,除非你
1177	really sneaky and you ask	真的很狡猾,你问
1178	harsh questions and corner the damn	严酷的提问和拐角该死的
1179	things, we're probably already there.	事情,我们可能已经在那里。
1180	If you know	如果你知道的话
1181	some of the tricks, like how many R's are there in	一些诡计,比如有多少R's在
1182	Renderer,	铸造者,
1183	and Bazzotti	和巴佐蒂语
1184	can't figure that one out.	搞不懂这个
1185	Oh, I didn't know	瓳иぃ笵
1186	that was one of its, yeah, so it has these	这是它的一个,是的,所以它有这些
1187	weird lacunae in its knowledge, right?	它的知识里有怪异的缺陷,对吧?
1188	Well, it divides	好吧,它分裂了
1189	everything into tokens, and those tokens	所有事物都变成象征和那些象征
1190	are more than one letter.	是一个以上的字母。
1191	So, it actually, weirdly,	所以,实际上,奇怪的是,
1192	it's myopic with	这是迷幻与
1193	respect to single letters.	尊重单字母。
1194	Right, I see.	对,我明白了。
1195	So, it's got a resolution problem.	所以,它有一个解决的问题。
1196	Yeah.	对
1197	Now, you can get around this with	现在,你可以绕过这个
1198	weird tricks, like if you ask it to write	诡异的诡计,就像你问它写
1199	a computer program to count the number of	计算数字的计算机程序
1200	letters in a word,	一个字的字母,
1201	it can create that computer program,	它可以创建计算机程序,
1202	run it, and then get the number of	运行它,然后得到数字
1203	letters correct.	字母对。
1204	Right, right.	对,对。
1205	So, back to consciousness.	所以,回到意识。
1206	The question of consciousness, I always think,	意识的问题,我总是认为,
1207	where along the lines,	在那里,按照路线,
1208	is everything conscious, or is nothing	一切有意识,还是什么也没有
1209	conscious, potentially?	有意识,有可能吗?
1210	And I think you want to just,	我认为你只是想...
1211	when you're trying to understand something,	当你试图理解什么,
1212	consider the various possible	考虑各种可能
1213	answers, and	答案,以及
1214	think that there's a probability associated with	认为有概率与
1215	each one of these answers, as opposed to a certainty.	每一个答案,而不是一个确定性。
1216	Now,	现在,
1217	if physics is correct,	如果物理学是正确的,
1218	the universe started off	宇宙开始了
1219	with, consisting almost entirely	几乎完全由
1220	of hydrogen, a little bit of helium,	氢气一点氦气
1221	and some lithium,	和一些锂,
1222	and that	还有,
1223	coalesced into stars that	结为恒星,
1224	exploded.	发生爆炸了
1225	When it coalesced into stars, you had	当它凝结成恒星时,你就
1226	the formation of heavier elements,	形成较重的元素,
1227	and then those	然后这些
1228	stars got scattered, and then	星星散开,然后
1229	reformed, and made new	改革并创造了新的
1230	{\fn华文楷体\fs16\1cHE0E0E0}星空
1231	And, so	这么说
1232	we eventually got	我们最终得到了
1233	elements that are higher in the	中较高元素
1234	periodic table, besides the very	周期表,除
1235	basic ones.	基础。
1236	It's the physics equivalent of Jacob's ladder, I think.	我想,这相当于雅各的梯子
1237	Yeah, so this is	是啊,所以这是
1238	what physics predicts.	物理预测。
1239	This strange spiral upward	这奇怪的螺旋上升
1240	towards, somewhat, towards	走向,在某种程度上走向
1241	consciousness?	意识?
1242	Well, yeah.	对
1243	So,	这么说
1244	the point is that the universe, at least	重点是宇宙,至少
1245	quantum physics, started out essentially	量子物理学,基本上开始
1246	as hydrogen.	作为氢气。
1247	And	还有
1248	given enough time,	有足够的时间
1249	you had more	你还有更多
1250	complex,	复杂,
1251	heavy elements,	重元素,
1252	and more complex molecules.	更复杂的分子
1253	And then,	礛
1254	13.8 billion years later, at least on this	138亿年后,至少是这个
1255	planet, we have what we call consciousness in the form	星球,我们有我们所谓的意识在形式上
1256	of, you know.	你懂的,我是说...
1257	But that means	但这意味着
1258	consciousness had to arise	意识必须出现
1259	from hydrogen.	从氢气。
1260	Yeah, well,	对啊
1261	see.	看到没?
1262	So if you just leave hydrogen out in the sun	所以如果你把氢留在太阳里
1263	long enough, it starts talking to itself.	足够长,它开始自言自语。
1264	I've seen your comments	我看过你的评论
1265	on this before.	之前的这个
1266	I think	我觉得
1267	you're pointing to the same sort of thing	你指着同样的事物
1268	that my friend Jonathan Pagio	我的朋友乔纳森帕乔
1269	has been trying to elucidate, which is that	一直试图阐明,这就是:
1270	there's an implicit structure	有一个隐含的结构
1271	of possibility.	可能的话
1272	He associates	他联系
1273	this with the concept of heaven.	这与天堂的概念。
1274	There's an implicit structure of	有一个隐含的结构
1275	possibility that material forms are trying	物质形式尝试的可能性
1276	to flesh out.	以充实。
1277	And so, in some sense,	所以,在某种程度上,
1278	the possibility of consciousness	意识的可能性
1279	is inherent in the hydrogen atoms,	是氢原子固有的,
1280	obviously, because it emerged.	很明显,因为它出现了。
1281	So,	这么说
1282	it's a tautology in some ways.	在某些方面,这是一种同义词.
1283	Maybe everything's conscious in some way.	也许一切都有意识的方式。
1284	Maybe it's just degrees of	也许只是程度
1285	consciousness, or concentrations	意识或浓度
1286	of consciousness.	意识。
1287	Yeah, well, I wonder	对,我想知道
1288	if that's associated with the notion,	如果这与这个概念有关
1289	the Christian notion, that the word is primary.	基督教的观念, 这个词是主要的。
1290	You know, because in	你知道,因为
1291	mythological representations, you have	神话中的表述,你有
1292	three fundamental elements.	三个基本要素。
1293	You have something like	你有类似的东西
1294	order, which you can think about as	命令,你可以认为
1295	society.	社会。
1296	But it's the	但这是
1297	a priori axiomatic	逻辑
1298	interpretive structure.	释义结构.
1299	You have that.	你有这个。
1300	Then you have chaotic potential.	那么你有混乱的潜力。
1301	That's the Tohu, Vabohu, that exists	这就是托胡,瓦博胡,存在
1302	at the beginning of time.	在时间的开始。
1303	And so, the way God	如此,神的方式,
1304	is represented in the story of	被表现在故事中
1305	Genesis is that	创世纪就是
1306	God is the	上帝就是那个
1307	a priori interpretive	预先解释
1308	process that gives rise	生成过程
1309	to order as a consequence	因此发出命令
1310	of manipulating potential.	操纵潜力。
1311	And the intermediary factor is	中间因素就是
1312	the word.	这个词。
1313	That's the Christian conception.	这是基督教的概念。
1314	And the word is something like	这个词就像
1315	something like, well,	比如说
1316	language.	语言。
1317	But it's also something like	但它也是一样
1318	the sacrificial gesture that's	牺牲的姿态,这就是
1319	necessary for learning	学习所必需的
1320	to take place.	将进行。
1321	So you could imagine this.	这样你就能想象出来
1322	When you learn something, it's not only	当你学到一些东西, 不仅是
1323	that you add to a storehouse	在仓库里添加
1324	{\fn黑体\fs20\shad2\2aH82\3aH20\4aH33\fscx95\3cH592001\be1}你拥有过的东西
1325	that you already know has to undergo	已经知道必须经历
1326	a death and a	一个死亡和一个
1327	transformation.	转变
1328	You know, most real learning is	你知道,大多数真正的学习是
1329	painful, you think?	你觉得很痛苦吗?
1330	Yeah, I mean, sometimes painful.	是啊,我的意思是,有时痛苦。
1331	Well, the	那个
1332	deeper the axiom	更深的轴线
1333	that's shifting when you learn, the more chaos	你学的越是乱
1334	is associated with it.	和它有关
1335	That can be exciting,	这可能会让人兴奋
1336	but it can also be destabilizing.	但也可能破坏稳定
1337	That	那个
1338	existential crisis that you had	你遇到的生存危机
1339	had great potential, right?	很有潜力,对吧?
1340	Because you resolved	因为你决心
1341	it, but that didn't mean it was without	但它并不意味着它没有
1342	its pain.	它的痛苦。
1343	So if you imagine a hierarchy	所以,如果你想象一个等级
1344	of axioms, right?	轴心,对不对?
1345	And so the lower	这么低
1346	down the axiom hierarchy you go,	你走的轴线等级,
1347	the more chaos is	越是混乱
1348	released when that	此时释放
1349	axiom is challenged, you get	逻辑受到挑战,你得到
1350	a negative emotional response to that	一种负面的情绪反应
1351	with this anxiety and threat, because God	因为上帝
1352	only knows what happens when all hell breaks	只知道当一切地狱破灭时会发生什么
1353	loose, but there's a positive aspect too.	但也有积极的一面
1354	That's why it's a dragon and a treasure	故曰龙与宝.
1355	always in the hero mythology.	总是在英雄神话中。
1356	It's because when all hell breaks loose,	因为当所有的地狱松开,
1357	there's immense opportunity.	有巨大的机会。
1358	And so,	于是,
1359	and that's part of the meaning.	而这就是意义的一部分。
1360	Now, I think you capitalize	现在,我觉得你利用
1361	on that treasure, let's say,	说在宝藏上
1362	on the treasure portion of that chaos	在混乱的宝藏中
1363	by assuming something like	假设某事
1364	your own ignorance, by allowing	你的无知通过允许
1365	your initial preconceptions	您的初始概念
1366	to die and by tracking	死亡和跟踪
1367	the trail of deep and	深渊的踪迹
1368	persistent questioning.	持续质疑。
1369	Now, your questioning	现在,你的质询
1370	took the place, if I got it right,	如果我说得没错的话
1371	you basically took the	你基本上拿了这个
1372	scientific tack, is that right?	科学塔克,是吗?
1373	Yeah, well, I'm trying to	是啊,我试图
1374	understand a truth,	理解一个真理,
1375	the truth of the universe.	宇宙的真谛
1376	physics is essentially study of	物理学基本上是研究
1377	the truth of the universe, at least those things	宇宙的真理,至少那些东西
1378	that are predictable.	这是可预测的。
1379	When I resolved	当我决定
1380	my existential crisis,	我的生命危机,
1381	which happened about the same time	发生在同一时间
1382	yours did, I started,	你的,我开始
1383	I didn't study science	我没有学科学
1384	precisely, I wasn't as interested	确切地说,我没有那么感兴趣
1385	in the transformations of the material	材料的转化
1386	world, so I'm probably	世界,所以我也许
1387	more people oriented than thing	更多的人面向事物
1388	oriented temperamentally.	以脾气为导向.
1389	So I started to study evil.	於是开始修习邪道.
1390	So that was my	所以,这是我的
1391	delving into the depths, because I	深入深处,因为我
1392	wanted to crack that, I wanted to understand	想要破解这个,我想明白
1393	if it, not so	如果是这样,不是那样
1394	much even whether it existed, because I	甚至连它是否存在,因为我
1395	became convinced of that very quickly,	很快就相信了这一点,
1396	but what exactly that	但到底是什么东西
1397	had to do with me?	跟我有关?
1398	Because when I was reading history, I read it as	因为当我读历史,我读它作为
1399	a perpetrator and not as a victim or	行为人而不是受害人,或
1400	a hero.	一个英雄。
1401	I mean, I try to read	我的意思是,我试着读
1402	history to discern the facts of	了解事实的历史
1403	what	什麽
1404	humans did, you know,	人类的确是
1405	so.	所以说 So.
1406	That also	还有
1407	shaped the way that you act though.	塑造你的行为方式
1408	Probably, sure.	可能吧,当然
1409	I've read a lot of history.	常读经史.
1410	I try to understand	我试着理解
1411	the rise and fall of civilizations,	文明的兴衰,
1412	and...	还有...
1413	What do you think makes them fall?	你觉得是什么让他们跌倒的?
1414	Well, one of the things is	其中一个是
1415	a decreasing	减少
1416	birth rate, which seems to be	出生率,似乎
1417	a natural consequence	自然结果
1418	of prosperity.	以繁荣为生。
1419	Yeah, isn't that strange, eh, because you'd	是啊,是不是很奇怪,嗯,因为你会
1420	kind of predict the opposite, wouldn't you?	有点相反,不是吗?
1421	As far as I know, every	据我所知,每个
1422	civilization that has experienced prosperity	繁荣的文明
1423	has had	有过
1424	a decline in population.	a 人口减少。
1425	There may be a few	可能有几个
1426	exceptions, perhaps people can	例外,也许人们可以
1427	enlighten me.	启发我
1428	I'll look at	我来看看
1429	the comments on	评论意见
1430	this interview to see perhaps	这个采访也许
1431	what I can learn.	我能学的
1432	But it seems that	但看起来
1433	from what I've read,	从我读到,
1434	every or almost every	每一次或几乎每一次
1435	civilization, when	文明,何时
1436	they become prosperous,	他们变得繁荣,
1437	their birth	他们的出生
1438	rate drops.	费率下降。
1439	Do you think that's a consequence of the emergence	你觉得那是出现的后果吗?
1440	of something like	喜欢的东西
1441	a non-punished hedonistic	非惩罚性的享乐主义
1442	egocentrism?	自我中心主义?
1443	Well, obviously,	显然
1444	there's certainly many examples of civilizations	肯定有许多文明的例子
1445	that have become prosperous.	已经变得繁荣。
1446	There is	有一个
1447	generally a trend towards hedonism.	一般是享乐主义的趋势。
1448	Yeah, well, you can get away with it if you're	是啊,你可以逃脱它,如果你
1449	wealthy, eh, because the consequences of	有钱,嗯,因为后果
1450	your policies don't smack you on the head	保单不打你的头
1451	instantly.	马上
1452	Precisely.	没错
1453	So, you know,	所以,你知道吗,
1454	if you're a civilization under	如果你是一个文明下
1455	threat, like let's say you're...	威胁,就像我们假设你...
1456	If you take, say, Rome,	如果你拿,比如说,罗马,
1457	when they were	当他们
1458	trying to not get annihilated by a	尝试不被消灭
1459	Carthage, and they had Hannibal	迦太基,他们有汉尼拔
1460	running around, marauding Italy,	到处奔跑, 掠夺意大利,
1461	they didn't have time for	他们没有时间
1462	hedonism.	享乐主义。
1463	Hedonism is	享乐主义
1464	not an option.	不是一个选择。
1465	We're going to	我们要去
1466	get destroyed by Hannibal.	被汉尼拔摧毁
1467	Chips are down.	芯片掉下来了
1468	Yeah.	对
1469	When	何时
1470	civilizations are under stress,	文明受到压力,
1471	there's very little hedonism	没有什么异性恋
1472	that takes place.	发生。
1473	So, you know, William James said	所以,你知道,威廉・詹姆斯说
1474	that the modern world needed a moral equivalent	现代世界需要一个道德等同的
1475	to war, right?	战争,对不对?
1476	He investigated the religious	他调查了宗教
1477	realm very, very deeply, and I think this	领域非常,非常深刻, 我认为,
1478	was in the Varieties of Religious Experience, and	属于宗教经验的品种,
1479	that really had an effect on me, because	这真的对我有影响,因为
1480	I think that you need	我觉得你需要
1481	something akin to	类似的东西
1482	an existential threat in order to	存在威胁,以达到
1483	set you straight.	让你明白
1484	I think there's some truth to that.	我想这是实话
1485	You know, it's sort of like if it's a...	有点像是...
1486	Let's say if it's a spoiled child	说不定是个被宠坏的孩子
1487	that where everything...	所有的东西...
1488	That kid gets everything he or she wants,	那个孩子得到他想要的一切,
1489	and you have sort of	你有点
1490	a veruca-salt situation.	瓦鲁卡盐的情况。
1491	And	还有
1492	then writ large, that	然后写大,那
1493	is a civilization that is	是一个文明
1494	prosperous and somewhere people get everything they want.	繁荣,人们得到他们想要的一切
1495	I think it's the right way to think about it	我觉得这是正确的想法
1496	developmentally and neuropsychologically, because	在发育和神经心理学方面,因为
1497	maturation	成熟期
1498	itself consists of	它本身包括:
1499	two processes, let's say.	这么说吧两个过程
1500	The more mature I am, the more	我越成熟,我就越成熟
1501	I'm bringing other people	我带别人来
1502	into the purview of my vision.	进入我的视野
1503	So I extend myself	所以,我扩展我自己
1504	across other people, be my	穿过别人,做我的
1505	family first, but then	家庭先,但后来
1506	the community more broadly.	社区范围更广。
1507	The better you are at that, the more	你越好,越多
1508	people you can play a game with	你可以和别人玩游戏
1509	at the same time.	同时。
1510	But you also do the same thing with the future.	但你也做同样的事情对于未来。
1511	That's actually, as far as I can tell,	事实上据我所知
1512	what the cortex is for.	皮层是干什么用的?
1513	It's to move you away from primordial	是为了让你远离原始
1514	hedonistic motivation	享乐动机
1515	to this more inclusive sense of future	更包容的未来感
1516	and community.	与社区。
1517	And that's a higher order self.	这是更高的秩序自己。
1518	So the default would be	所以默认是
1519	maturity, and wealth can obviously	成熟财富显然可以
1520	facilitate that.	帮助。
1521	Maybe it's partly because, okay, so	也许部分是因为,好吧,所以
1522	you're a very wealthy man, you could give your children	你是一个非常富有的人,你可以给你的孩子
1523	anything they ever asked for.	任何他们要求的
1524	So why not do it?	那为什么不做呢?
1525	Why not every time	为什么不每次
1526	they ask for something, why not just deliver it?	他们有求必应,为什么不直接提供呢?
1527	There's some wisdom that	有一点智慧
1528	comes through the ages that you don't	度过你没有的岁月
1529	want to have someone be a spoiled rat.	想要有人成为被宠坏的老鼠
1530	And why do you think	为什么你认为
1531	giving people everything they want	给人他们想要的一切
1532	exactly when they want it necessarily	当他们想要的时候
1533	produces that?	生产?
1534	Because it seems to.	因为它似乎是。
1535	I think it almost always does.	我想它几乎总是这样。
1536	Okay, you had a rough childhood.	好吧,你有一个粗糙的童年。
1537	Yeah.	对
1538	Yeah, like rough and tumble rough childhood.	是啊,像粗糙和粗糙的童年。
1539	Plenty of fights, and a father who	有很多争斗,还有父亲
1540	is a difficult creature to contend with.	很难对付的生物
1541	Okay, what did that do for you?	好吧,那对你有什么好处?
1542	And are you	你是吗?
1543	grateful for it, or are you unhappy about it?	感激不尽还是你对此不高兴?
1544	Well, I guess you never know the things	我猜你永远不知道
1545	that really made you who you are today.	那真的让你成为今天的你
1546	So, at the end of the day, am I	所以,在一天结束时,我是
1547	on net grateful for my life?	感谢我的生命?
1548	I am.	没错
1549	And perhaps even for the	也许甚至对于
1550	hard things.	硬的东西。
1551	Because those hard things,	因为那些硬的东西,
1552	I learned from them.	我从他们那里学到的。
1553	What did you learn?	你学到了什么?
1554	I mean, I read your	我的意思是,我读你的
1555	biography.	传记.
1556	It's not an autobiography.	这不是自传
1557	No, it's not.	不,这不是。
1558	No, no.	没有,没有。
1559	Definitely not.	当然不是。
1560	I would tell it in a different way than Isaacson	我会用和艾萨克森不同的方式说出来
1561	because Isaacson,	因为以撒森,
1562	who I think is an excellent biographer,	我认为他是一个优秀的传记作者,
1563	is nonetheless looking at things	仍然在看东西
1564	through his lens.	通过他的镜头。
1565	And wasn't there	也没有
1566	at the time.	在当时。
1567	Right, of course, of course.	对,当然,当然
1568	Well, one of the things that stood out for me,	对我来说最突出的一件事
1569	though, from that, and	不过,从那里,
1570	I would like your comments about this, was	我希望你能对此发表评论
1571	rather	相当
1572	the rough details of your childhood.	你童年的粗略细节
1573	A lot of physical altercations.	很多物理上的争吵.
1574	And a lot of, I don't know	还有很多,我不知道
1575	exactly how to care.	到底怎样关心。
1576	More than physical altercations.	不只是身体上的争吵
1577	I mean, I was almost beaten to death	我的意思是,我差点被打死
1578	within an inch of my life at one point.	在我生命的一寸之内
1579	Right, that	对,那个
1580	counts.	计数。
1581	That definitely counts as a physical altercation.	这绝对是肉体上的争吵
1582	It wasn't just a few	不只是几个
1583	blows here and there.	吹这里和那里。
1584	So, what did that, okay,	那么,这是什么,好吧,
1585	why aren't you bitter about that?	你为何不苦恼呢?
1586	Because that's a pathway	因为那是一条路
1587	that people take.	让人们接受
1588	I think that there are,	我认为有,
1589	one can take, and often	一个人可以承受,而且经常
1590	people do take,	人们会接受
1591	the path of vengeance.	复仇之路。
1592	Yeah, that's for sure.	是的,这是肯定的。
1593	That's what antenatalism is.	这就是产前检查
1594	Yeah, to say,	是啊,可以说,
1595	to feel that the world has treated them unfairly	觉得世界对他们不公平
1596	and that they will visit upon	他们将去探亲,
1597	the world that, which the world	这个世界
1598	has visited upon them.	曾拜访过他们。
1599	And justified	和正当的
1600	by recourse to the reality of	通过诉诸现实
1601	their own suffering.	他们自己的痛苦。
1602	Which is often	经常是这样
1603	intense.	紧张。
1604	Right?	对吧?
1605	So the story of Job,	约伯的故事,
1606	one of the things I concluded from the story	我从故事中得出的结论之一
1607	of Job, because it's a precursor to the crucifixion	因为那是钉十字架的前身
1608	story.	故事的情节。
1609	So Job makes two decisions.	约伯做了两个决定
1610	The first decision is	第一个决定是
1611	that no matter how terrible things become	不管事情变得多么可怕
1612	for him, he will not lose faith in himself.	对于他,他不会丧失信心。
1613	And the second is, no matter	第二个是,不管怎样
1614	what horrors are visited on him	他遭遇了什么恐怖
1615	by Satan himself, he will not lose faith	以恶魔发誓,他不会丧失信仰,
1616	in the, what would you say, in the spirit	你会在精神上说什么
1617	that gave rise to the cosmic order.	这导致了宇宙秩序。
1618	Right?	对吧?
1619	No matter what.	不管怎么样
1620	Well, so, you know,	好吧,所以,你知道吗,
1621	while I'm not a particularly religious person,	虽然我不是一个特别虔诚的人,
1622	I do believe that the	我认为,
1623	teachings of Jesus are	耶稣的教导
1624	good.	不错
1625	And wise.	则智.
1626	And	还有
1627	that there's tremendous wisdom	有巨大的智慧
1628	in turn the other cheek.	换个脸颊
1629	And for a while there, when I was saying	有一阵子,当我说
1630	I thought, well that's really a weak thing to do.	我想,那真的是一个软弱的事情。
1631	Yeah, it can be.	是的,这是可能的。
1632	If someone,	如果有人会
1633	and with respect to bullies at school,	关于学校的欺负,
1634	I think you shouldn't turn the other cheek, you should punch them on the nose.	我想你不应该转另一面脸, 你应该打他们的鼻子。
1635	And then	礛
1636	thereafter make peace with them.	然后和他们和解。
1637	But they need to stop bullying you.	但他们必须停止欺负你
1638	And a punch in the nose will stop that.	和一拳的鼻子会停止这一点。
1639	And then thereafter, you know,	接着,你知道,
1640	make peace.	说和
1641	Sometimes that punch	有时候,那拳头
1642	on the nose is the first step in	鼻孔是第一步进入
1643	making peace with bullies.	与恶霸和平相处
1644	Yes, it may, you know,	是的,也许,你知道,
1645	change their career from being a bully to perhaps	改变他们的事业从欺负到也许
1646	they shouldn't be doing such things.	他们不应该这样做。
1647	But	不过
1648	yeah, I think there's, anyway.	是的,我想,无论如何。
1649	So why not bitterness?	那么,为什么不苦?
1650	This notion of forgiveness	宽恕的概念
1651	is important.	这一点很重要。
1652	I think it's essential	我觉得这很重要
1653	because if you don't forgive,	因为如果你不原谅
1654	then, you know,	那么,你知道的,我们...
1655	I forget who said it, but an eye for an eye	我忘了是谁说的,但眼睛换眼睛
1656	makes everyone blind.	让每个人都失明。
1657	If you're going to seek vengeance	如果你要复仇的话
1658	and you have this never ending	而你却永远无法结束
1659	cycle of vengeance.	复仇的循环
1660	There are anthropological	有人类学
1661	speculations that we were caught	我们被抓到的猜测
1662	in a 350,000 year	在35万年内
1663	cycle of not getting anywhere after	循环无所事事
1664	modern human beings emerged, precisely	现代人的出现,正是
1665	because of that.	因为那样
1666	Because we couldn't	因为我们不能
1667	get out of accelerating	离开加速
1668	tit for tat revenge cycles.	泰特复仇循环的奶子。
1669	Right.	对
1670	Yeah, so	对,所以
1671	I'm actually a big believer in	我其实很相信
1672	the principles of Christianity.	基督教的原则。
1673	I think they're very good.	我觉得他们很好
1674	So in what sense, then, are you not	所以,从什么意义上来说,你是不是
1675	religious?	宗教吗?
1676	Well,	那个
1677	so Dawkins just came out	所以道金斯刚出来
1678	three weeks ago or thereabouts and announced	三个星期前或者在那里宣布
1679	that he was a cultural Christian, right?	他是一个文化基督徒,对不对?
1680	And so the question...	所以问题...
1681	Right, I would say	是的,我会说
1682	I'm probably a cultural Christian.	我可能是一个文化基督徒。
1683	I was brought up as an Anglican	我当圣公会教徒长大
1684	and I was baptized.	我接受了洗礼
1685	Although, oddly enough, my parents also	虽然,奇怪的是,我的父母也
1686	simultaneously sent me to	同时送我去
1687	a Jewish nursery school,	犹太幼儿园,
1688	preschool.	学前班。
1689	So it was Jesus our Lord, you know...	所以这是耶稣我们的主,你知道...
1690	Well, Jews have a reputation for being religious too, you know?	犹太人也有宗教信仰的名声
1691	Yeah, yeah, no.	是啊,是啊,没有。
1692	I might have been the only	我可能是唯一一个
1693	Jewish kid at the school.	学校里的犹太孩子
1694	I didn't even realize that was the thing.	我什至不知道这是事情。
1695	So...	所以说...
1696	But I was just singing Havana Gila	但我只是唱哈瓦那吉拉
1697	one day and Jesus our Lord the next, you know?	有一天,耶稣我们的主下一个,你知道吗?
1698	So that is my	所以这是我的
1699	upbringing.	培养。
1700	So when Dawkins	所以当道金斯
1701	announced he was a cultural Christian,	宣布他是一个文化基督徒,
1702	the question that came to my mind	我脑海中的问题
1703	right away was, okay, there's a bunch of things	现在,好吧,有一堆事情
1704	going on there.	就是这样
1705	The first is	第一个
1706	Dawkins' proclamation	道金斯的公告
1707	or admission that	或承认
1708	if you compare different societies	如果你比较不同的社会
1709	and their axiomatic suppositions,	和他们的猜测,
1710	he would prefer the ones	他更喜欢那些
1711	predicated on Christian axiomatic	根据基督教的逻辑
1712	assumptions.	假设。
1713	I do think those are good ones.	我认为这些是好的。
1714	Okay, so...	好吧,这样...
1715	So that's why I asked you the question	所以我才问你这个问题
1716	about why	为什么
1717	you would consider yourself not a	你会认为自己不是
1718	religious person, because it seems to me	宗教人士,因为在我看来
1719	that the essence of...	精髓的...
1720	It isn't the statement	不是声明
1721	that you abide by a particular	以便你们遵守某一项命令,
1722	Protestant creed, let's say.	比如说,新教信仰
1723	It seems to me much more akin to the notion	在我看来更像是这个概念
1724	that you believe	你相信吗?
1725	that this set of axiomatic	这组逻辑
1726	suppositions is	假设是:
1727	like the pronatalist presumption.	就像产前医生的推测
1728	It's correct.	这是正确的。
1729	It's going to lead to a better society,	它将导致一个更好的社会,
1730	a society I think that we would prefer to be.	我认为我们更喜欢这样的社会
1731	I mean, if you say like	我的意思是,如果你说喜欢
1732	what	什麽
1733	will result in the greatest happiness	将带来最大的幸福
1734	for humanity, considering not just	不仅考虑到
1735	the present but all future humans?	现在,但所有未来的人类?
1736	Happiness or meaning?	幸福还是意思?
1737	Well...	这个...
1738	Which would you pick?	你会选哪一个?
1739	Personally, I'd pick meaning, because for me	我个人会选择意义因为对我来说
1740	meaning leads to happiness, but I think that's...	意思是幸福,但我觉得...
1741	Right, but the reverse isn't necessarily	对,但反之不一定
1742	the case.	这个案子
1743	Yeah, let's just say	这么说吧
1744	I could say	我可以说
1745	contentment or something,	满足什么的,
1746	but I think if a set of principles	但我认为如果一套原则
1747	is likely to lead to	很可能导致
1748	a society	社会
1749	thinking of themselves	思考他们自己
1750	as happy or content or...	快乐或满足...
1751	Well, okay...	这个...
1752	Then principles	然后原则
1753	that lead to	导致
1754	the most amount of happiness	最大的快乐
1755	over time, not just the present.	随着时间的推移,不只是现在。
1756	Yeah, yeah, yeah.	对,对,对
1757	That iteration element's important.	迭代元素的重要性。
1758	Yeah.	对
1759	Because you have to consider the happiness	因为你要考虑幸福
1760	of future humans as well.	还有未来的人类
1761	I think that's where the ethos	我觉得这就是风格
1762	actually develops, is that	实际发展,是
1763	it's a consequence of iterated games.	这是玩游戏的结果
1764	Right, now, but the contentment	现在,但满足
1765	issue I have a harder time with, so	问题我很难相处,所以...
1766	reward divides into two categories.	奖励分为两类。
1767	There's satiation reward	有满足的奖励
1768	and there's dopamine incentive	还有多巴胺刺激
1769	reward, and they're not the same.	赏金,他们不一样。
1770	And it looks to me, given what	在我看来,鉴于
1771	you've already told me about the way that you resolved	你已经告诉我你如何解决
1772	your existential crisis, is that you	你的存在危机,就是你
1773	consistently pick, that's	匡
1774	adventure reward fundamentally, over	冒险赏金基本上,完毕
1775	contentment.	满足.
1776	Now,	现在,
1777	you like your kids and you're content with them,	你喜欢你的孩子,你满足他们,
1778	I presume, what you're playing, but	我猜,你在弹什么,但是
1779	the way that you've found meaning	你找到意义的方式
1780	in your life is not through contentment,	在你的生活中,不是通过满足,
1781	it's through adventure.	它通过冒险。
1782	That seems to me the case,	在我看来是这样的
1783	to be the case.	成为事实。
1784	Well, it's not adventure	这不是冒险
1785	for the sake purely of adventure.	为了纯粹的冒险。
1786	I do like	我喜欢
1787	adventure, but	冒险,但是
1788	for example, a lot of people	比如说很多人
1789	will find happiness in contentment with adventure	在冒险的满足中找到幸福
1790	like climbing tall mountains	像爬高山一样
1791	or hiking along	或沿着路走
1792	trails, doing	线索,正在做
1793	going, you know,	要去,你知道吗,
1794	exploring the wilderness and that kind of thing.	探索荒野之类的东西
1795	And	还有
1796	I've never really found,	我从来没有真正发现,
1797	personally, I've found it	我个人找到了
1798	compelling to, say,	强迫,说,
1799	climb Mount Everest.	攀登珠穆朗玛峰.
1800	You're doing it	你这样做了
1801	conceptually.	概念上。
1802	Conceptually, and from	从概念上和从
1803	a knowledge standpoint, knowledge Mount Everest.	知识点珠穆朗玛峰
1804	Right, so it's adventure	对,所以是冒险
1805	with a destination	目标
1806	in mind, right, and you already	记住,没错,你已经
1807	described the destination.	描述了目的地。
1808	The destination is	目的地是
1809	understanding.	谅解
1810	Yes, to	对,去
1811	deepen our understanding of	加深我们对
1812	the nature of the universe.	宇宙的性质。
1813	I think this is,	我想这是,
1814	I mean, one, I guess, could call it a religion.	我的意思是,一个,我想,可以把它称为宗教。
1815	I wouldn't be	我不会
1816	upset about that, but that's, that is	但是,这是
1817	my religion for,	我的宗教,为
1818	you know, lack of a better way to describe it is,	你知道,没有更好的方法描述它是,
1819	it's really, it's the religion of curiosity,	真的,这是好奇的宗教,
1820	the religion of greater enlightenment,	以启蒙的宗教盟誓,
1821	and then if you follow that, say like, that's the goal,	如果你顺着它,说,这就是目标,
1822	then what falls out of that goal?	那这个目标又有什么意义?
1823	What falls out of that goal is to have consciousness	从目标中脱颖而出的是意识
1824	expand in scale and scope.	扩大规模和范围。
1825	So you have, I use scale and scope to say that you want,	所以你有,我用尺度和范围说你想,
1826	you want more consciousness, and I think it's also good	你想要更多的意识, 我觉得这也是很好的
1827	to have varied consciousness, you know,	拥有不同的意识,你知道,
1828	so that everyone's not thinking exactly the same thing.	这样大家的想法就不会完全一样
1829	You know, that's those multiple eyes, eh?	你知道,那是那些多眼睛,是吗?
1830	Yeah.	对
1831	So I think it's probably good to have multiple religions	所以,我认为它可能是好的有多种宗教
1832	and have different perspectives on things.	并且对事物有不同的看法。
1833	And so what falls out of that is,	由此而来的是,
1834	we need to take a set of actions	我们需要采取一系列行动
1835	that increase the probability	增加概率
1836	that the future will be good for humanity	未来将造福人类
1837	and that, and we want to expand the consciousness.	那样,我们想扩大意识。
1838	We want to, I think we should increase	我们想,我想我们应该增加
1839	the population of Earth, not decrease it.	地球的人口,不要减少。
1840	And I think that will not result in-	我认为这不会导致...
1841	The Hungarians have been successful	匈牙利人已经成功
1842	in that regard, by the way.	顺便提一下,在这方面。
1843	They've made family policy planning	他们做了计划生育
1844	their fundamental concern.	他们的根本关切。
1845	And that was driven- Very wise.	这是驱动 - 甚有智识.
1846	That was driven in part by a woman named Katalin Novak,	那部分是由一个叫Katalin Novak的女人驱动的
1847	who used to be president of Hungary.	他曾经是匈牙利总统
1848	She's a very, very smart person.	她是一个非常非常聪明的人。
1849	And they've knocked the abortion rate in Hungary down	匈牙利的堕胎率也下降了
1850	by 38% with no compulsion, right?	百分之三十八没有强迫,对不对?
1851	They have a 12 week limit in Hungary.	他们在匈牙利有12周的限制。
1852	Yeah, they've increased the proportion of women	是的,她们增加了女性的比例
1853	in the labor force by about 15%.	在劳动力中约占15%。
1854	They've knocked the divorce rate down substantially.	他们大大降低了离婚率
1855	And at minimum, they've decreased the decline	至少他们减少了下降
1856	in the birth rate.	出生率。
1857	I don't know if they've actually managed	我不知道他们是否真的成功了
1858	to tilt it back up in Hungary yet,	在匈牙利向后倾斜
1859	but they spend about 7% of their GDP on family policy.	但他们将国内生产总值的7%用于家庭政策。
1860	And this ARC enterprise we've been building in London	我们在伦敦兴建的ARC企业
1861	made family policy a center point.	使家庭政策成为中心。
1862	We're trying to bring classic conservatives	我们正试图带来经典的保守派
1863	and liberals together all around the world.	和自由主义者一起在世界各地。
1864	And you're thinking on that natalist front	你却在想那个出生主义者
1865	has actually been, what would you say,	事实上,你会说,
1866	has been an input into that.	这一直是这方面的投入。
1867	As I started to notice, well, I don't know.	我开始注意到了我不知道
1868	I don't think it was 20 years ago	我觉得不是20年前的事了
1869	that I'd caught on to that.	我抓住了这一点。
1870	It was not that long ago,	不久前
1871	but I knew that there was something terribly wrong	但我知道事情有大错
1872	with the fact that the birth rates have plummeted	出生率下降
1873	so terribly.	这么可怕。
1874	In South Korea and Japan, I think in South Korea now,	在韩国和日本我想现在在韩国
1875	it's something like 40% of men in their 30s are virginal.	大约40%的30岁男人是处女的
1876	It's some cataclysmic class.	某甲子课.
1877	The virgin, not virgin thing is neither here nor there,	处女,不是处女的东西既不在这里也不在那里,
1878	but the fact that I believe the birth rate	但事实上我相信出生率
1879	in South Korea is only-	南朝鲜只是...
1880	0.9, I think.	应该是0.9吧
1881	Right, which I think it even went,	没错,我想它甚至去了,
1882	it may have gone down to 0.8 last year or something.	去年可能降为0.8级
1883	But that essentially means that if you fast forward,	但这基本上意味着如果你快速前进,
1884	that the population of Korea would decline by 60%.	韩国人口将减少60%。
1885	Right.	对
1886	Necessarily.	当然
1887	If you have a steady, and that assumes-	如果你有一个稳定, 这假设 -
1888	Over what time span?	多长时间?
1889	In fact, if that, oh, well, Koreans are long-lived,	事实上,如果,哦,好吧, 韩国人是长寿的,
1890	so you won't see the numbers,	所以你不会看到数字,
1891	it won't be as obvious at first.	一开始不会那么明显
1892	You'll just see that there's a very disproportionate	你会看到,有一个非常不相称的
1893	number of old people.	老年人人数。
1894	Right, right.	对,对。
1895	Because they'll live a long time.	因为他们会活很久的
1896	But for predicting the future population of any country,	但为了预测任何国家的未来人口
1897	the simple way to do it is say,	简单的方式是说,
1898	how many babies were born last year,	去年生了多少个婴儿
1899	and what is the average lifespan in that country?	这个国家的平均寿命是多少?
1900	And then if that birth rate,	然后如果这个出生率,
1901	if that number of babies stays constant,	如果婴儿数量保持不变
1902	then eventually the old people will die	然后老人会死
1903	and that will be the population of the country.	这是全国的人口。
1904	It's very straightforward.	这是非常直接的。
1905	Right, right, right.	对,对,对
1906	So if you look to say Japan,	所以如果你想说日本
1907	which I think had on the order of 800,000 births last year,	我想去年大概有80万个孩子
1908	and then you multiply that by the lifespan,	然后你用寿命乘以这个
1909	which is around 84, 85 years,	大约84,85年,
1910	you get to a population of,	你得到一个人口,
1911	that's in the sort of 60 to 70 million range,	在六千到七千万范围内
1912	which is a massive decrease from where it is today.	这比今天的要少很多
1913	Right, right.	对,对。
1914	Over 100 million.	一亿多
1915	Well, it seems to me the combination of that	在我看来,这的组合
1916	lack of engagement on the relationship side	关系方面缺乏参与
1917	plus the plummeting birth rate,	加上出生率下降,
1918	it seems to me to be a primary biological marker	在我看来,它是一个主要的生物标记
1919	of profound demoralization.	极度的士气低落
1920	Because people aren't committing to the future	因为人们没有致力于未来
1921	or to each other.	或对彼.
1922	Yes, I mean, having a kid is a vote for the future.	是的,我的意思是,有一个孩子是对未来的投票。
1923	So if you intend to have a child,	所以,如果你打算有一个孩子,
1924	like that means you care about the future.	也就是说你关心未来
1925	Yeah, you believe in the future.	是的,你相信未来
1926	You believe in the future.	你相信未来
1927	Having a child, assuming it's intentional,	有了孩子,假设这是故意的,
1928	is the most optimistic thing that somebody could do.	最乐观的事情是别人可以做的。
1929	Well, so one of the things I derived from this analysis	那么,我从分析中得出的一件事
1930	I've been doing of the Old Testament	我一直在做旧约
1931	is that faith and courage,	这是信仰和勇气,
1932	I'll give you an example.	举个例子
1933	So when Moses is on the verge of the promised land,	当穆萨在应许的地方的时候,
1934	he sends scouts out to check out Canaan,	他派侦察员去查查迦南
1935	because that's the promise.	因为那是承诺
1936	Now Canaan is the home of the descendants of Cain.	现在迦南是该隐后裔的家园.
1937	So it's a very specific place mythologically.	所以,这是一个非常具体的地方神秘的。
1938	It's the place of people who aren't aiming up,	这是人们不瞄准的地方,
1939	put it that way.	这么说吧
1940	Okay, so the scouts go out to look at the future	好侦察员们出去看看未来
1941	and they come back in two teams.	他们分两队回来
1942	And one team says, there's nothing but giants there.	一支队伍说那里只有巨人
1943	It's a complete bloody catastrophe.	简直是场大灾难
1944	You led us out into the desert stupidly.	你把我们带到了沙漠里
1945	We were better off in the tyranny.	我们在暴政中更好
1946	There's no way we're going to survive, right?	我们不可能活下来对吧?
1947	And the next scouts, or the other set of scouts,	接下来的侦察兵或其他侦察兵
1948	Caleb and Joshua, come back and say,	迦勒和约书亚,回来说,
1949	well, there's trouble there,	那儿有麻烦了
1950	but if we aim up and we get our act together,	但是如果我们瞄准目标,让我们一起行动,
1951	we can turn this into the promised land, okay?	我们可以把这里变成承诺的土地好吗?
1952	It's at that point that God condemns Moses to die	这时候上帝谴责摩西的死
1953	and Aaron, who's the political wing.	和亚伦,谁是政治派别。
1954	And the earth opens up and swallows up	大地开阔吞下
1955	the faith of the scouts.	侦察兵的信仰
1956	由Caleb和Joshua领导的人民
1957	who has the same name as Christ, by the way,	顺便说一句,他与基督同名,
1958	and that's relevant.	这一点很重要。
1959	They're the ones that are led into the promised land.	他们被带入承诺的土地。
1960	Okay, so what's the meaning of the story?	好吧,那故事的意义是什么?
1961	Well, the future's always a challenge.	未来总是个挑战
1962	And the moral thing to do is to evince faith and courage	道德上的事情是证明信仰和勇气
1963	in the future, regardless, in some ways,	不管未来,在某些方面,
1964	it's a weird thing,	这很奇怪
1965	because it's kind of regardless of the data,	因为它有点不管数据,
1966	because you can say, well, look at all the suffering	因为你可以说,嗯, 看看所有的痛苦
1967	that constitutes life,	这是生命,
1968	and look at all the potential horrors of the future,	看看未来所有潜在的恐怖
1969	and certainly people do hesitate about bringing a child	当然,人们对于带孩子是犹豫不决的,
1970	into a world like this.	进入这样的世界。
1971	That's, I hear that often, yeah.	我经常听到,是的
1972	Yeah, yeah, yeah, well, and it's weird,	是啊,是啊,是啊,嗯, 这很奇怪,
1973	because if you had to bring a child into the world	因为如果你要带孩子进世界
1974	and you had to pick a time, you'd probably pick this one.	你不得不选择一个时间, 你可能会选择这个时间。
1975	And so obviously everybody who had a child,	很明显,每个有孩子的人
1976	at least by choice in the past,	至少在过去的选择,
1977	did that in spite of the catastrophe of the future,	尽管未来发生了灾难,
1978	but sorry, it's a long-winded way of making a point.	但抱歉,这是个很长的表达方式
1979	There's an ethical requirement that's associated	有个道德要求是相关的
1980	with living in the manner that would justify your life,	过着正当的生活
1981	even to yourself, to have faith and courage in the future,	甚至对自己, 对未来有信心和勇气,
1982	no matter what, right?	无论如何,对不对?
1983	So it's not a foolishness or what,	所以,这不是一个愚蠢的什么,
1984	defense against death anxiety or foolish superstition,	防御死亡焦虑或愚蠢迷信,
1985	that faith, it's not that at all.	那种信念,根本不是这样
1986	It's a kind of courage.	是一种勇气。
1987	It's like, we're going to make this work.	这就像,我们要做到这一点。
1988	We're going to make this work.	我们一定会成功的
1989	And a child is a vote in that direction.	一个孩子就是朝这个方向投票。
1990	A child is a vote for the future, for sure.	当然,儿童是对未来的投票。
1991	How many kids do you have now?	你现在有几个孩子?
1992	I have 12.	我有12个
1993	12, so you're definitely doing your part.	12,所以你肯定在做你该做的。
1994	What do you like about kids?	你喜欢孩子吗?
1995	I mean, there's an older batch and a younger batch,	我的意思是,有更古老的批,还有更年轻的批,
1996	so there's quite a big difference.	所以有相当大的区别。
1997	Our little X is over there.	我们的小X在那边
1998	He's the eldest of the youngest.	他是最年轻的长子.
1999	He's four.	其四岁.
2000	And my older boys are 20 and 17, turning 18 shortly.	我年长的男孩20岁和17岁, 18岁很快。
2001	So big, big gap.	这么大的缺口
2002	So what did you like about having kids?	那你喜欢生孩子吗?
2003	Well, I think kids are delightful.	嗯,我觉得孩子是令人愉快的。
2004	Why?	为什么?
2005	What's delightful about them?	他们有什么好玩的?
2006	Because they get a bad rap, man.	因为他们说唱不好
2007	So what did you find delightful about them?	那么,你觉得他们有什么乐趣?
2008	I mean, I think we are, I mean, most people,	我的意思是,我认为, 我的意思是,大多数人,
2009	batch charted people are going to love their kids,	成批有图表的人会爱自己的孩子,
2010	and it's like a little loved one.	这就像一个小爱人。
2011	Yeah, yeah, that's a good deal.	是啊,是啊,这是一个很好的交易。
2012	They also want to love you, kids,	他们还想爱你,孩子们,
2013	if you give them the chance.	如果你给他们一个机会。
2014	They do.	没错
2015	They're the only people you'll ever meet in your life	他们是你一生中唯一见过的人
2016	who want nothing more than to have the best possible	他们只想得到最好的
2017	relationship they could have with anyone with you.	他们可以和你和任何人建立关系
2018	That's a good deal.	善财交易.
2019	It's a good deal.	善财交易.
2020	And I think there's, you know, like frankly,	我觉得,你知道, 老实说,
2021	if we weren't biologically inclined to love our children	如果我们在生理上不爱我们的孩子
2022	and to want to nurture them and to find reward,	想养育他们,想获得报酬,
2023	we would long ago have ceased to exist.	我们早就会不复存在了
2024	I mean, you can take, say, I don't know,	我的意思是,你可以,说,我不知道,
2025	a wolf or a wildcat or some creature that,	狼或野猫或某种生物,
2026	a wolverine, some creature that would normally	一个狼人,某种通常会
2027	be very aggressive.	非常冲动。
2028	And when that creature has babies,	当那个生物有孩子时
2029	the mother nurtures them and is tender and caring.	母亲抚育她们,并照顾她们。
2030	So, you know, there's, we are,	所以,你知道,有,我们是,
2031	we've evolved to love our offspring.	我们进化为爱我们的后代。
2032	It's a natural thing.	这是自然的。
2033	And I think people, I mean, even if somebody's	我觉得人们,我的意思是, 即使有人的
2034	sort of taken somewhat of a hedonistic approach to life,	某种程度上对生活采取了某种享乐的态度,
2035	I think there's an appeal even on the hedonism side	我想即使是肝脏上也有上诉
2036	to say that, well, would you not,	说,嗯,你不会,
2037	you'll actually find it very rewarding to have a child.	生个孩子会很有意义
2038	That's a good appeal and it's one,	这是一个很好的吸引力,这是一个,
2039	that's exactly why I asked you the question.	这就是为什么我问你这个问题。
2040	It's a solid argument for the hedonists out there.	这对外面的享乐主义者来说是一个坚实的论点.
2041	And not all hedonists are bad.	并不是所有的享乐主义者都是坏的。
2042	I mean, I have friends who are hedonistic	我的意思是,我有朋友谁是享乐主义
2043	and they're very good people, but they,	他们是非常好的人,但他们,
2044	and I've actually convinced some of them to have kids,	我说服他们中的一些人生孩子,
2045	which I'm happy to say, and they've thanked me afterwards.	我很高兴这么说他们后来感谢了我
2046	Like, I'm not one person who I've said,	喜欢,我不是一个人我说,
2047	you know, you should really have kids.	你知道,你真的应该有孩子。
2048	You won't regret it.	你不会后悔的
2049	And not one person has said they regret it, ever.	从来没有人说他们后悔过
2050	Right, so that means you don't have any psychopath friends.	也就是说你没有精神病朋友
2051	So that's good.	所以这是很好的。
2052	Yeah, they love it.	是啊,他们喜欢它。
2053	Well, when I was working in Boston,	我在波士顿工作的时候
2054	I had a very busy job and I pretty much stopped	我忙着工作,停了很久
2055	doing everything except my job	除了我的工作什么都做
2056	and spending time with my kids.	陪着我的孩子
2057	But if I had to rank those in importance,	但是,如果我不得不排序这些重要,
2058	then spending time with my kids, that was better.	然后花时间陪我的孩子, 这是更好的。
2059	And the reason it was more important was because it was,	更重要的原因是...
2060	partly because it was actually better.	部分原因是它实际上更好。
2061	Like, if your kids are capable of a modicum	喜欢,如果你的孩子有能力微弱
2062	of pro-social behavior, which is pretty much your choice,	支持社会的行为, 这几乎是你的选择,
2063	although temperament makes a difference,	虽然脾气有所改变
2064	there isn't anyone more entertaining	没有比这更好玩的了
2065	to associate with than little kids,	与比小孩还小的,
2066	because, partly, I think it's because	因为,部分地,我认为这是因为
2067	they're not as cortically inhibited.	他们没有皮质抑制。
2068	So they're, my daughter has a new baby.	所以他们是,我的女儿有一个新的孩子。
2069	There's no filter.	没有过滤器。
2070	They just say what they think.	他们只是说他们的想法。
2071	Well, and you can see what they see through your eyes, too.	你也能看到他们从你的眼睛里看到的
2072	So you're all filtered in and, you know,	所以,你们都被过滤了,你知道,
2073	you see presumptions everywhere.	你到处可以看到假设。
2074	And then the child comes along and you think,	然后孩子来了,你觉得,
2075	oh yeah, that's an amazing thing.	哦,是的,这是一个惊人的事情。
2076	And I've forgotten all about that, you know?	我已经忘了这一切,你知道吗?
2077	I replaced my perception with my memory, right?	我用记忆代替了我的感觉,对吧?
2078	And so children reopen that.	因此,孩子们重新打开。
2079	That's also why I think it says in the gospels	这也是为什么我觉得福音里写着
2080	that unless you become like a little child,	除非你变成一个小孩子,
2081	you can't enter the kingdom of heaven,	你不能进入天国
2082	because you have to make contact	因为你必须接触
2083	with that untrammeled perception that existed	和那种没有被束缚的感觉
2084	before you ossified your perceptions into your foolish	在你将你的看法变成愚蠢之前
2085	and often nihilistic habits.	常常是虚无的习惯
2086	Yeah, but I mean, to the point you were	是啊,但我的意思是, 到这一点,你是
2087	perhaps getting at earlier,	也许更早一点
2088	I do think that, and I consider myself an environmentalist,	我确实这么认为,我认为自己是个环保主义者,
2089	but I think the environmental movement has gone too far.	但我认为环境运动已经走得太远了。
2090	And-	还有...
2091	You're not supposed to worship nature, you know?	你不应该崇拜大自然,你知道吗?
2092	Well, it's gone too far in the sense that	嗯,它已经走得太远了,因为
2093	in its extreme, you start viewing humans as a blight	在它的极端, 你开始把人类视为一个衰弱
2094	on the face of the earth.	在地球上的脸上。
2095	That turns out to be a real problem.	事实证明这是一个真正的问题。
2096	Yeah, mostly implicitly, but sometimes explicitly.	是的,大多数是隐含的,但有时是明确的。
2097	And if you internalize that, then you start thinking-	如果你把它内部化, 然后你开始思考...
2098	I mean, in AI systems, for example.	比如在人工智能系统里
2099	Yeah, I'm somewhat worried that the AI systems would be,	是啊,我有点担心 AI系统会,
2100	I mean, you could say like,	我的意思是,你可以说,
2101	the first ways that AI could go bad would be-	AI可能坏的第一个方式是...
2102	Train one on Paul Ehrlich's work and see what happens.	在保罗·埃利希的作品上训练一门看看会发生什么
2103	That would be hell.	那会是地狱。
2104	Yeah, yeah.	对对
2105	Well, we have plenty of political systems	我们有很多政治制度
2106	that have already exactly done that.	他们已经这样做了
2107	Yeah, that would be-	是啊,这将是 -
2108	That would be hell, that's exactly right.	那会是地狱,这是完全正确的。
2109	That would be hell.	那会是地狱。
2110	Yeah.	对
2111	So, yeah, that's a disturbing thought.	所以,是的,这是一个令人不安的想法。
2112	That's for sure.	当然
2113	So, but just going back to the, you know,	所以,但只是回到,你知道的,
2114	how can something, which I think generally,	我总觉得怎么会有什么事情
2115	it sort of starts out with good intentions,	它有点开始有良好的意图,
2116	but ultimately sort of pave the road to hell,	但最终铺平了通往地狱的道路,
2117	is environmentalism in the extreme.	是极端的环境主义。
2118	Yeah.	对
2119	That starts to view humans as bad,	开始将人类视为坏人
2120	humans as a load on the earth that the earth can't sustain.	人类是地球无法承受的载荷
2121	These are completely false.	这完全是假的。
2122	Yeah, well, it's interesting that the economists	是啊,这很有趣,经济学家
2123	and the biologists tend to separate	生物学家往往分离
2124	into segregated camps on that front,	进入前线的隔离营,
2125	because the biologists tend to be Malthusian,	因为生物学家往往是马尔萨斯人
2126	and that makes them really bad biologists.	这使得他们非常糟糕的生物学家。
2127	So, I think it was,	所以,我想这是,
2128	I can never remember the philosopher who said this,	我不记得那个哲学家说过
2129	but it's a brilliant observation,	但它是一个辉煌的观察,
2130	is that we evolved thought	是我们进化了
2131	so that our thoughts could die instead of us.	那样我们的思想就会死去而不是我们
2132	And that's actually this, it's great, it's a great line.	而这其实是, 这是伟大的,这是一个伟大的线条。
2133	And it's actually the case,	其实是这样的
2134	because the prefrontal cortex evolved	因为前额皮层进化
2135	so that we could produce disposable avatars, right?	这样我们就可以生产一次性的假人了,对吧?
2136	So I, in our conversation,	所以我在谈话中
2137	what I'm really doing in our conversation	我真正在谈话中做的事
2138	{\fn黑体\fs22\bord1\shad0\3aHBE\4aH00\fscx67\fscy66\2cHFFFFFF\3cH808080}我是在给你一个潜在的阿凡达
2139	of myself for the future.	为了未来
2140	And I'm saying, why don't you see	我说,你为什么不看
2141	if you can kill this thing now	如果你现在可以杀了它
2142	so I don't have to act it out and die?	所以,我不用表现出来和死亡?
2143	And that's part of that, right, exactly.	这是其中的一部分,没错。
2144	And so, and we've extended that with games, for example,	所以,我们用游戏来推广,比如,
2145	right, we've externalized that.	是的,我们已经外部化了。
2146	And so the reason the biologists are wrong	所以生物学家们都错了
2147	is because they don't actually understand	因为他们不理解
2148	the qualitative difference	质量差异
2149	between human beings and other creatures,	在人类和其他生物之间,
2150	is that we can let our thoughts die instead of us.	我们可以让我们的思绪死而不用我们。
2151	So that's substitutionary death.	这就是替代死亡。
2152	That's a good way of thinking about it, right?	这是一个很好的思考方式,对不对?
2153	And that means that the Malthusian limits,	这意味着马尔修斯的极限,
2154	they don't reply to us in the same way.	他们不以同样的方式回应我们。
2155	And so the economists got that right.	于是经济学家们就说对了。
2156	It's like, we can innovate our way out of scarcity.	这就像,我们可以创新我们的方式摆脱稀缺。
2157	In fact, I don't like the idea of natural resource,	事实上,我不喜欢自然资源的想法,
2158	for example, I think that's a Marxist notion,	例如,我认为这是一个马克思主义的概念,
2159	natural resource.	自然资源。
2160	It's like air, okay?	这就像空气,好吗?
2161	I'll give you air.	我会给你空气。
2162	Everything else, fresh water,	其他一切,新鲜水,
2163	that is not a natural resource.	这不是自然资源。
2164	And kerosene or fossil fuel just laid in the ground	煤油或化石燃料刚刚铺在地上
2165	until like 1850, because nobody could figure out	直到1850年因为没人能想出
2166	what the hell to do with it.	如何是地狱.
2167	So what that implies is that it's something,	意思是这是什么
2168	I think it's a religious ethos that's the natural resource,	我认为这是一种宗教的特质是自然资源,
2169	the religious ethos that allows us to orient to the future,	宗教的气质使我们可以面向未来
2170	to be community oriented and to be trustworthy.	以社区为导向,值得信赖。
2171	Yeah, well, look, I mean, at least some of these things,	是啊,你看,我的意思是, 至少其中一些东西,
2172	one can actually apply physics or, you know,	一个可以实际应用物理或者,你知道,
2173	one can analyze in a scientific way to say,	人们可以科学地分析说,
2174	is how many humans can sustain	是多少人类可以维持
2175	without what most people will consider	没有大多数人会考虑的
2176	to be significant environmental damage.	成为严重的环境破坏。
2177	And I think if you actually do the numbers,	我认为如果你真的做数字,
2178	I think it's potentially 10 times	我觉得可能是十次
2179	the population we have today.	我们今天的人口。
2180	Right, so how did you arrive?	对了你怎么来的?
2181	How did you arrive at that figure?	你怎么得出这个数字的?
2182	I mean, obviously you put a fair bit of thought into this,	我的意思是,很明显你把相当一点点的想法在这个,
2183	and this is a very counter-cultural proposition.	这是一个非常反文化的建议。
2184	Since the mid-1960s, the moral proclamation has been	自1960年代中期以来,道德宣言一直
2185	that there are too many people on the planet,	地球上的人太多了,
2186	and that is, I think Paul Ehrlich was the ultimate exponent	也就是说,我认为保罗·埃利希是终极代言人
2187	of that particular point.	这一点。
2188	Yeah, his analysis was very unscientific.	他的分析很不科学
2189	He based it on some visit to Delhi, I believe.	我相信,他基于对德里的访问。
2190	Right, right, and sort of visceral repugnance.	对,对,还有一种内脏反感
2191	Yeah, wrapped himself in science and produced nonsense.	是啊,把自己包在科学并产生废话。
2192	So, I mean, you just say like,	所以,我的意思是,你只是说,
2193	okay, well, how much land area do we need to grow food?	好吧,好吧,多少土地面积我们需要种植食物?
2194	Yeah.	对
2195	How much would that encroach on natural habitats?	那会侵蚀多少自然栖息地?
2196	What's the actual food-growing potential, given...	真正的粮食增长潜力是什么?
2197	Especially if we got good at it.	特别是如果我们做得好的话
2198	Right, and we are actually quite good at it,	对,我们其实很擅长
2199	and getting better.	越来越好。
2200	Right, right.	对,对。
2201	And is there enough water?	还有足够的水吗?
2202	Well, actually, there's plenty of water,	事实上水量很大
2203	because Earth is mostly water, it's 70% water buying.	因为地球大部分是水 70%是水买的
2204	That's convenient.	这是方便的。
2205	By surface area, yeah.	是的,从表面来看。
2206	Desalination is actually very inexpensive.	淡化实际上非常便宜。
2207	So, there's really not a shortage of water.	所以,真的没有缺水。
2208	There's not a shortage of sort of surface area	地表面积并不短缺
2209	and energy to grow food.	和种植食物的能量
2210	And...	还有...
2211	There's no shortage of computational time,	不缺计算时间
2212	and increasingly, there's no shortage.	越来越,没有短缺。
2213	Right, and that's energy dependent to some degree.	没错,这在某种程度上是能量的依赖。
2214	Yeah.	对
2215	But the energy problem is solvable.	但能源问题是可以解决的。
2216	Very solvable, yeah.	非常可以溶解,是的。
2217	So, let's turn, if you don't mind,	所以,让我们转身, 如果你不介意,
2218	to some more practical solutions.	对一些更实际的解决办法。
2219	I'd like to, I wanna...	и稱и稱
2220	Let's start a little bit more with the AI issue,	我们再多谈一下AI问题
2221	with OpenAI, because I'd like to explore that,	与OpenAI, 因为我想探索,
2222	and then I'd like to talk about	然后我想谈谈
2223	你对SpaceX做了什么
2224	I kinda like to walk through your companies,	我有点喜欢走通过你的公司,
2225	and I wanna see how you're integrating your vision	我想看看你如何融入你的视野
2226	across them, as well.	穿过他们,也。
2227	So, let's start with OpenAI.	因此,让我们从OpenAI开始.
2228	Now, you started talking about that story with Larry Page.	你开始和拉里·佩吉谈那个故事
2229	You were intangibly interested in that.	你对这个很感兴趣
2230	Yeah, I was concerned that Larry was	是啊,我担心拉里是
2231	insufficiently worried about AI safety,	不够担心AI的安全,
2232	because, well, his view is that we'll all be,	因为他认为我们都会
2233	essentially, upload our minds to computers,	基本上,上传到电脑上
2234	and then humans, there won't really be a need for humans.	然后人类,就不需要人类了
2235	And I thought that was...	我以为那是...
2236	I was like, what team are you on, Larry?	我当时想,你是哪支队伍的,拉里?
2237	It's kinda hard on the humans there.	对那里的人类来说有点难
2238	Right, right, what team are you on?	对,对,你是哪支队伍的?
2239	And I said, we really need to make sure humanity thrives,	我说,我们真的需要确保人类繁荣,
2240	and grows, and then he called me a speciest for saying that.	然后他又说我是种子
2241	Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.	释曰.
2242	So I'm like, well, I guess I am, you know,	所以我喜欢,嗯, 我想我是,你知道,
2243	pro-human, what are you?	亲人类,你是什么?
2244	Right, right, right, that's the question.	对,对,对,这就是问题所在
2245	Yeah.	对
2246	If you're not pro-human, that's not nothing, right?	如果你不是亲人类,那也不是什么,对吧?
2247	That's something else, you're pro something.	这是别的东西,你是职业的东西。
2248	I think it's a crazy thing to not be pro-human.	我认为这是疯狂的事情不亲人。
2249	I mean, if humans are not gonna be on team human, who is?	我是说,如果人类不会加入人类团队,那是谁?
2250	So, that was the final straw, really,	所以,这是最后的吸管,真的,
2251	and I was like, okay, we really need some new AI company	我当时想,好吧,我们真的需要一些新的AI公司
2252	to serve as a counterbalance to Google,	作为谷歌的平衡
2253	because at the time, they had almost all	因为当时他们几乎都...
2254	of the great AI researchers, they had massive computing power,	他们拥有巨大的计算能力,
2255	massive financial resources, and it was very much	大量财政资源,而且非常
2256	a unipolar world with respect to AI.	a 与大赦国际有关的单极世界。
2257	And a unipolar world controlled by Larry Page,	一个由拉里·佩奇控制的单极世界
2258	and who, you know, had, I thought,	和谁,你知道,曾经,我想,
2259	somewhat misanthropic views about humans,	对人类有些不友善的看法,
2260	or at least, certainly insufficiently concerned	或至少,当然不够关注
2261	about what might happen to the humans.	人类会怎样
2262	So that was the basis for creating OpenAI.	这就是创建OpenAI的基础。
2263	Yeah, that's actually a real problem,	是啊,这是一个真正的问题,
2264	like insufficiently concerned with humans,	就像对人不够关心一样
2265	that's a problem.	那是个问题。
2266	Yes, and has all the AI power, so.	是的,并且拥有所有AI的力量,所以。
2267	Yeah, right.	没错
2268	That troubled me, and so I thought,	这困扰着我所以我想
2269	well, what would be the opposite of Google	那么,什么是相反的谷歌
2270	would be a non-profit that is open source,	将是一个非营利的开源,
2271	so you can see what's going on, not a black box,	所以,你可以看到发生了什么, 不是黑匣子,
2272	and that was not sort of, wasn't forced	这不是那种,不是强迫的
2273	by sort of marketing incentives	以营销刺激方式
2274	to make as much money as possible.	尽可能赚钱
2275	So, OpenAI was started as a non-profit open source.	因此,OpenAI开始作为一个非营利的开源.
2276	The open in OpenAI refers to open source.	OpenAI中的开源指的是开源.
2277	Yeah, yeah, yeah.	对,对,对
2278	So why were you concerned about the profit mode	那你为什么担心利润模式
2279	of warping things at that point?	在那个时候打乱东西?
2280	Well, at least, well, I think this perhaps	嗯,至少,嗯,我想也许
2281	is particularly a challenge for publicly traded companies,	对上市公司来说,这尤其是一个挑战,
2282	you just get sued if you don't maximize profits.	你只是被起诉如果你没有最大化的利润。
2283	You know, the shareholders, you'll get	你知道,股东,你会得到
2284	a shareholder class action lawsuit	股东集体诉讼
2285	that will force you to maximize profits.	这会迫使你获得最大的利润。
2286	Yeah, so you thought a for-profit system	是啊,所以你认为一个盈利系统
2287	might tilt the development of AI in directions	可能使AI的发展走向倾斜
2288	that were short-term profit-motivated	短期盈利
2289	instead of cracking the fundamental problem,	而不是解决根本问题
2290	something like that.	类似的东西。
2291	Yeah, look, I could be wrong about a lot of these things,	是啊,你看,我可能错了很多这些事情,
2292	but that was, that's what I thought at the time,	但这就是我当时的想法
2293	and I wanted to create something that I thought	我想创造一些我想的东西
2294	would be the polar opposite of Google,	将是谷歌的极性对立面,
2295	which is obviously a for-profit and closed source.	这显然是一个盈利和封闭的来源。
2296	Centralized, yeah.	中央集权,是的。
2297	Centralized, and you don't get to see what's going on.	中央集权,则不见其事.
2298	这是OpenAI的基础,
2299	and we recruited a lot of key people.	我们招募了很多关键人物
2300	我在招募Ilya Sutskayer时很有帮助
2301	who, without him, OpenAI would not be where it is today.	没有他,OpenAI就不会出现
2302	Ilya's?	伊利亚的?
2303	Yeah, Ilya Sutskayer, Ilya.	是的,伊利亚·萨特斯卡耶,伊利亚。
2304	Uh-huh, he'd be a good broadcast guest.	他是个好广播嘉宾
2305	Pretty famous guy in AI.	AI里相当有名的人
2306	Uh-huh.	对
2307	Ilya也是我在OpenAI里想的那个人
2308	who had the strongest moral compass,	他有最强的道德指南针,
2309	cared the most about doing the right thing.	最关心的是做正确的事情。
2310	So it was troubling to see him get ousted from OpenAI.	所以看到他从OpenAI被赶出来很麻烦
2311	You know, he sort of was part of a coup	你知道,他有点像政变的一部分
2312	to exit Sam Altman, the CEO.	离开总裁萨姆·阿尔特曼
2313	Yeah, right.	没错
2314	And when that coup somehow got turned around	当那场政变被扭转时
2315	and then Ilya was, in fact, exited from OpenAI.	之后,伊利亚实际上离开了OpenAI.
2316	And OpenAI is now really trying to maximize profit.	而OpenAI现在正在真正地试图实现利润最大化.
2317	What happened?	发生了什么事?
2318	I still am not sure.	我还是不确定
2319	Like, and I'm considering legal action here	喜欢,我正在考虑法律行动在这里
2320	to say, like, how is it possible	说,像,怎么可能
2321	that an organization is founded	一组织成立
2322	with the goal of being open source, non-profit?	以开源为目的,非营利?
2323	And I provided almost all the money in the beginning,	我一开始提供了几乎所有的钱,
2324	almost $50 million to get it going with no stock.	几乎5000万美元以获得它去没有股票。
2325	I have no stock or control or anything.	我没有股票也没有控制权
2326	And how is it possible to go from there	如何从那里出发
2327	to a company that's now allegedly worth	给一家公司,现在据称值得
2328	over $100 billion and seems to be maximizing profit?	超过1000亿美元似乎利润最大化了?
2329	It's a hell of a shift.	转法轮地狱.
2330	And it's not open source.	亦非开源.
2331	Right, so that's very different than the original goal.	对,所以这与最初的目标大不相同.
2332	I would say this is like, is it possibly more different?	我想说,这就像, 它可能更不同?
2333	I'm not sure how you could be more different.	我不确定你怎么会更不同
2334	So, I mean, this would be like,	所以,我的意思是,这将是像,
2335	let's say you fund a non-profit	假设你资助了一个非营利组织
2336	to preserve some part of the Amazon rainforest.	保护亚马逊雨林的一部分
2337	But instead that non-profit becomes a lumber company	但是,反之,非盈利成为一个木材公司
2338	and chops down the forest and sells it.	砍掉森林,卖掉
2339	You would think that it was, that seems.	你会认为,这是,似乎。
2340	Are you shocked by what happened?	你对所发生的事件感到震惊吗?
2341	Is that a?	那是个吗?
2342	Yes, I'm concerned about it	是的,我很担心
2343	and I have voiced those concerns over the years.	多年来,我表达了这些关切。
2344	And I don't think anybody understands it.	我想没有人能理解
2345	Like, what the hell happened?	像,到底发生了什么?
2346	I still don't know.	我还是不知道
2347	Well, what do you think happened?	你觉得发生了什么?
2348	I mean, look, I don't want to push you, obviously,	我的意思是,你看, 我不想推你,显然,
2349	but I'm curious.	我有点好奇
2350	It's like, how did that happen?	怎么会这样?
2351	It doesn't make sense to me.	这对我毫无意义。
2352	I would like an answer to that question too.	我也要回答这个问题。
2353	So are you addressing that with Grok?	你和Grok谈这个?
2354	Yeah, so.	是啊,这样。
2355	Maybe that's the solution.	也许这就是解决办法。
2356	Rather like, I'm sure the last thing you need	我敢肯定,你最不需要的东西
2357	is another like immense legal battle.	这是另一场巨大的法律斗争。
2358	I mean, I'm still considering a legal challenge	我的意思是,我还在考虑一个法律挑战
2359	to at least perhaps to have the court explain to me	至少让法庭向我解释
2360	how an organization that I funded for one purpose	我为一个目的资助的组织
2361	can do the diametrically opposed purpose.	能够实现截然相反的目的。
2362	And that that's okay.	这没关系。
2363	And become a for-profit.	并成为牟利者.
2364	Please just show me the trail of the breadcrumbs.	请给我看面包屑的踪迹
2365	I see, I see, I want to do that.	我明白了,我想这样做。
2366	Because I'm confused and this	因为我很困惑和这个
2367	Yeah, well, it's a high-stakes cage too.	是啊,它也是个高捕虫笼
2368	Is it illegal if I'm missing something here?	如果我错过了什么,这是非法的吗?
2369	Well, it sounds at least like it should be understood.	好吧,这听起来至少应该被理解。
2370	At least.	起码
2371	Right, at least that.	对,至少是这样
2372	What the hell happened here?	这里到底发生了什么?
2373	Yes.	对
2374	You don't want that to happen,	你不想那样发生,
2375	especially given what's at stake.	特别是因为有利害关系
2376	Yes, yes, exactly.	没错没错
2377	OpenAI是AI中的领导者.
2378	Okay, so.	好吧,这样。
2379	And I'm somewhat worried that they've ingested	我有点担心他们已经摄入
2380	the woke mind virus in the training.	在训练中被唤醒的心灵病毒。
2381	You can see some of that in the output results.	在产出结果中可以看到一些。
2382	We obviously saw that with Google Gemini as well.	我们显然也看到了谷歌双子座。
2383	Yeah, you think so?	是吗?
2384	To absurd degrees.	到荒谬的程度。
2385	Oh, yeah, that was really quite the miracle.	哦,是的,这真的是相当的奇迹。
2386	It was sort of comical where it said,	说起来有点滑稽
2387	draw a picture of the founding cause of the United States	绘制美国建国事业的画面
2388	and it's a group of diverse women.	这是一群不同的女性。
2389	This is a historical event, this rewriting history.	这是一个历史事件, 这个重写历史。
2390	Yeah, yeah.	对对
2391	No, that was really something.	不,这真的很了不起。
2392	That was really something to see.	这真是令人印象深刻
2393	That was like a jaw-on-the-floor moment.	这就像一个下巴在地板上的时刻。
2394	Jaw-on-the-floor moment.	在地板上的时刻。
2395	Wow.	珃
2396	And then asking questions like,	然后问问题比如,
2397	which one's worse, misgendering Caitlyn Jenner	更糟糕的是, 错误的性别凯特琳詹纳
2398	or global thermonuclear warfare?	还是全球热核战?
2399	And it said, misgendering Caitlyn Jenner.	上面说, 错误的性别凯特琳·詹纳。
2400	That's a priority problem.	这是一个优先的问题。
2401	How powerful do you want this AI to get	你想让这个人工智能有多强大?
2402	with beliefs like that?	那种信仰吗?
2403	That's true.	没错
2404	I should, to Caitlyn Jenner's credit,	我应该,凯特琳・詹纳的功劳,
2405	Jenner说我更喜欢
2406	to be misgendered than half nuclear war.	被错误的性别超过一半的核战争。
2407	Well, that's good, that's good.	嗯,这是很好的,这是很好的。
2408	So there's a limit to all forms of nonsense.	故一切众生无量无边.
2409	Good for Caitlyn.	对凯特琳来说很好
2410	That's for sure.	当然
2411	Quite sensible.	相当明智。
2412	Yes, yes, yes, thank God for that.	是的,是的,是的,感谢上帝。
2413	Yes.	对
2414	Performing better than the AI.	表现优于AI.
2415	Yes, and while it's sort of perhaps funny and ridiculous,	是的,虽然它有点滑稽和可笑,
2416	at this stage, imagine if the AI is.	在这个阶段,想象一下如果AI是。
2417	It's not that funny.	没那么好笑
2418	It's semi-funny at this stage,	此时此刻是半疯狂的
2419	but the more powerful that AI gets,	但AI越强大,
2420	it could decide that that is not merely,	它可以决定,这不仅仅是,
2421	that it wants to force that outcome.	它想要迫使这个结果。
2422	And simply say that.	并简单地说。
2423	Yes, it's going to eradicate its	是的,它会消灭它
2424	performative contradictions, right?	演艺矛盾对吧?
2425	Yes.	对
2426	And act out what it believes.	并表现出它相信的。
2427	Oh yes, that's highly likely.	哦,是的,这很有可能。
2428	It could conclude society is insufficiently diverse	可以说社会不够多样化
2429	according to its programming,	根据其方案,
2430	and will simply force that diversity.	并只会迫使这种多样性。
2431	By whatever means.	以何义故.
2432	By whatever means is necessary.	无论用什么手段都有必要。
2433	Okay, so let's, that's good.	好吧,让我们,这是很好的。
2434	That's good on the AI side for now.	这在AI方面是好的,现在。
2435	Look, I don't think you and I	你看,我不认为你和我
2436	would make it in that scenario.	在那种情况下会成功的
2437	No, I don't think so.	不,我不这么认为。
2438	I don't think so.	亦不见.
2439	So how about we talk about Trump for a minute?	我们谈谈特朗普怎么样?
2440	The first thing, there's one question about Trump	首先,有一个关于特朗普的问题
2441	that I really wanted to ask you.	我真的想问你。
2442	So do you, are you shocked at the fact	你也一样,你对事实感到震惊吗?
2443	that you're donating a substantial amount of money	你捐了很多钱
2444	to facilitate Trump's election?	为了方便特朗普当选?
2445	Is that something you would have believed	你会相信吗?
2446	in the realm of possibility, say, five years ago?	可能,比如说,五年前?
2447	Well.	这个嘛
2448	And I want to diversify out into California.	我想到加州去经营
2449	What's been reported in the media is simply not true.	媒体上的报道完全不真实.
2450	Okay, okay.	好,好,好,我们走
2451	So I'm not donating $45 million a month to Trump.	所以我不会每月向特朗普捐赠4500万美元.
2452	Now what I have done is I have created a pack,	现在,我做了一个包,
2453	or super pack, what do you want to call it?	或者超级包,你想怎么称呼它?
2454	Yeah.	对
2455	Which, you know, I simply call it the America pack.	你知道,我叫它美国包。
2456	And the.	还有那个
2457	Do you want to tell everybody who's listening	你想告诉大家谁在听吗?
2458	what a pack is?	什么样的包?
2459	Because people just don't know.	因为人们不知道
2460	So it's a political action committee.	所以这是一个政治行动委员会。
2461	Yeah.	对
2462	It's an organization, it's sort of a legal entity	这是一个组织,它是一种法律实体
2463	that can receive funding.	可以接受资助。
2464	That funding can then be used	然后可以使用这笔资金。
2465	to help with political campaigns.	帮助政治运动。
2466	Yeah, okay, okay.	对,好,好。
2467	And how does that differ from a direct donation?	这与直接捐赠有什么不同?
2468	There are specific limits on direct donations to candidates	对候选人的直接捐款有具体限制
2469	and the pack system is a way of putting up	装包系统是一种设置
2470	a political structure in place that sort of runs parallel	一种平行的政治结构
2471	with the political, with the formal political system.	与政治,与正式的政治制度。
2472	And so.	则曰.
2473	Yeah, you can donate money directly to candidates.	是啊,你可以直接捐钱给候选人。
2474	That amount is fairly small.	这一数额相当小。
2475	Then there's, and you can donate a lot more money	还有,你可以捐更多钱
2476	to political action committee or super pack.	到政治行动委员会或超级团体。
2477	There are various rules that govern the operation	操作有各种规则
2478	of packs and super packs.	包和超级包。
2479	But it certainly allows for a lot more money	但肯定能赚更多钱
2480	in the system than would otherwise be possible.	在系统里不可能。
2481	Right, right.	对,对。
2482	And these are used, to be clear,	这些是用来表达的,
2483	on the Democrat and Republican side.	民主党和共和党方面。
2484	Yes.	对
2485	And I actually think that.	我其实也这么想。
2486	Right, so it's an open playing field on the pack side.	是的,所以这是一个开放的游戏场地在包的一侧。
2487	Yes, yeah.	对,对。
2488	What are you hoping to accomplish with this	你想用这个做什么?
2489	and what's the pack called?	那包叫什么来着?
2490	It's called the America pack.	这叫美国包
2491	America pack, okay, well that's easy to remember.	美国打包,好吧,那很容易记住。
2492	It's very easy to remember.	极易记.
2493	And it's actually, it's not meant to be	实际上,它不是注定的
2494	sort of a hyper-partisan pack.	这是一种超党派的包。
2495	It's actually, the core principles of this America pack	实际上,这是美国的核心原则
2496	are, the intent is to promote the principles	目的是促进这些原则
2497	that made America great in the first place.	这让美国成为伟大的第一。
2498	So I wouldn't say that I'm, say for example,	所以我不会说我,比如说,
2499	MAGA, make America great again.	MAGA,让美国再次伟大。
2500	I think America is great.	我认为美国是伟大的。
2501	I'm more MAG, make America greater.	我更喜欢MAG,让美国变得更伟大。
2502	And there's some core pillars, core values	还有一些核心支柱,核心价值
2503	that have, I think, made America great.	我认为这让美国变得伟大
2504	Could you elucidate those?	你能解释一下吗?
2505	Yeah, yeah.	对对
2506	Yeah, okay.	是啊,没关系。
2507	So, you know, one of them is being a meritocracy.	所以,你知道,其中之一是一个功绩管理。
2508	Yeah, okay, meritocracy.	是啊,好吧,精英管理。
2509	Yes, as much of a meritocracy as possible,	是的,尽可能多的精英管理,
2510	such that you get ahead as a function of your hard work	这样你就能提前完成你的辛勤工作
2511	and your skill and nothing else,	还有你的本事和一切
2512	which is why I would be opposed to, for example,	所以我反对,比如,
2513	things like DEI.	就像DEI一样
2514	亚德里安 Woldridge记录了事实
2515	that the alternative to meritocracy historically	在历史上的精英统治之外
2516	is nepotism and dynasty.	是裙带关系和王朝
2517	Absolutely.	当然
2518	It's not equity.	谓非平等.
2519	It's not equity, correct.	这不是公平,正确。
2520	It's nepotism and dynasty.	即是涅盘与朝.
2521	Right, so that's very much worth knowing.	是的,所以这是非常值得知道的。
2522	Okay, so meritocracy has its price	好吧,所以功绩管理有其代价
2523	because it's a severe judge,	因为它是一个严厉的法官,
2524	but the alternative is nepotism and aristocracy or dynasty.	但另一种选择是裙带关系贵族或王朝
2525	Okay, so meritocracy, what else?	好吧,那么精英管理,还有什么?
2526	I mean, clearly, you know, America,	我的意思是,很明显,你知道,美国,
2527	it's not like America's been purely a meritocracy,	也不是说美国纯粹是个精英
2528	but it has been more of a meritocracy	但更像是个精英
2529	than any other place.	而不是其他任何地点。
2530	Right, right, which is good.	对,对,很好
2531	That's good, that's good.	这很好,那很好。
2532	Which I regard as good.	我认为这是很好的。
2533	So promoting meritocracy,	因此,促进精英管理,
2534	promoting freedom, you know, freedom to operate,	促进自由,你知道, 经营自由,
2535	meaning like the least amount	意思是最小的金额
2536	of government intervention possible.	政府干预的可能性。
2537	We want, and this is, I think, important to fight as,	我们希望,这,我认为, 很重要的战斗作为,
2538	because the natural tendency over time,	因为自然趋势随着时间的推移,
2539	sort of almost like entropy,	有点像 en,
2540	is that the hand of government gets heavier every year.	政府的手会越来越重
2541	The laws and regulations accumulate every year,	法律法规每年累积,
2542	and these laws and regulations are immortal.	而这些法律法规是不朽的。
2543	Right, right, right.	对,对,对
2544	That's the evil uncle of the king.	那是国王的邪恶叔叔
2545	A very, very old story, very, very old story.	一个非常,非常古老的故事,非常,非常古老的故事.
2546	The Egyptians were wrestling with that problem	埃及人正与这个问题搏斗
2547	4,000 years ago, right?	4000年前,对不对?
2548	Yeah, so you have to have some,	是啊,所以你必须有一些,
2549	you have to really take an active role	您必须真正发挥积极的作用
2550	in reducing the number of laws and regulations.	* 减少法律和条例的数量。
2551	Otherwise, as more and more laws and regulations are passed,	否则,随着越来越多的法律法规获得通过,
2552	eventually everything becomes legal.	最终一切变得合法。
2553	Right, right, right.	对,对,对
2554	And you start getting into these Orwellian situations where...	你开始陷入奥威尔的境地...
2555	Then everyone's poor and miserable.	后皆贫苦苦.
2556	Well, where action A is illegal and action B is illegal,	如果行动A违法行动B违法
2557	and there isn't anything you can do that is legal.	没有什么可以做的是合法。
2558	So, you know, take an example of,	所以,你知道,举个例子,
2559	to give you an example of some lawfare	来给你一个法律机构的例子
2560	that was leveled against SpaceX, for example.	比方说,这是与SpaceX相对的。
2561	We were told for many years that we could not hire anyone	多年来,我们被告知我们不能雇用任何人
2562	who was not a permanent resident.	他们不是永久居民。
2563	Yeah, right, yeah, yeah, yeah, I remember that.	是的,是的,是的,是的,是的,我记得。
2564	Well, so SpaceX develops advanced rocket technology,	SpaceX开发了先进的火箭技术
2565	which is considered an advanced weapons technology,	被认为是先进武器技术,
2566	because it's a core part	因为它是一个核心部分
2567	of, like, intercontinental ballistic missiles.	像是洲际弹道导弹
2568	So there are only a handful of things	所以只有几样东西
2569	in the sort of highest level of weapon technology,	在武器技术的最高水平,
2570	and rocket technology is one of those,	火箭技术就是其中之一,
2571	because we could deliver a payload	因为我们可以交付有效载荷
2572	and basically bomb anywhere on Earth.	基本上轰炸地球任何地方
2573	Right.	对
2574	From anywhere on Earth.	从地球上的任何地方。
2575	So I was told, in no uncertain terms,	因此,我被告知, 毋庸置疑,
2576	by the government that if we hired anyone	政府说,如果我们雇用任何人
2577	who was not a permanent resident of the United States,	他不是美国永久居民,
2578	have either a green card or a citizen,	有绿卡或公民,
2579	that I would go to prison.	我会进监狱
2580	Oh, yeah.	对
2581	Because the presumption,	因为假设,
2582	if somebody's not a permanent resident,	如果有人不是永久居民的话
2583	is that they will leave the United States	他们将离开美国
2584	and take the rocket technology from SpaceX	从SpaceX获取火箭技术
2585	to potentially the countries	国家的潜在利益
2586	that would cause harm to the United States.	这会对美国造成伤害
2587	Right, right.	对,对。
2588	Pretty, you know, solid reasoning, I think.	漂亮的,你知道, 扎实的推理,我认为。
2589	And then, a few years ago,	后来,几年前,
2590	the Biden administration decided to sue SpaceX	拜登政府决定起诉SpaceX
2591	for failing to hire asylum seekers.	(c) 未能雇用寻求庇护者。
2592	Right, right.	对,对。
2593	Yeah, I remember that.	是的,我记得。
2594	I remember that.	我记得
2595	So we're told on the one side that if we hire anyone	因此,我们一边被告知,如果我们雇用任何人
2596	who's not a permanent resident, we go to prison.	谁不是永久居民,我们去监狱。
2597	Now we're told if we don't hire asylum seekers,	现在,我们被告知如果我们不雇用寻求庇护者,
2598	who are not asylum,	非庇护者,
2599	not people who have been granted asylum.	不是那些获得庇护的人
2600	Seekers.	寻者.
2601	They aspire to asylum.	他们渴望庇护。
2602	They are therefore not a permanent resident,	因此,他们不是永久居民,
2603	but if we don't hire them, we also go to prison.	但是如果我们不雇用他们, 我们也去监狱。
2604	Right.	对
2605	Well, the purpose of being damned if you do	好吧,如果你这样做,被诅咒的目的
2606	and damned if you don't is to make damned sure	如果你不想确定的话
2607	that you're damned.	你该死
2608	Correct.	没错
2609	Right, right.	对,对。
2610	So that's a kind of outcome.	所以这是一种结果。
2611	I mean, that seemed to be insane and unfair.	我的意思是,这似乎是疯狂和不公平的。
2612	And why did the Biden administration,	为什么拜登政府
2613	because they can only do so many big cases per year.	因为他们每年只能做这么多大案子
2614	There's a finite number they can do.	他们能做的有限数目。
2615	Why would the Justice Department	为什么司法部会
2616	of all the injustices that occur,	在一切不公正现象中,
2617	pick this as one of their biggest cases?	把这当成最大的案子之一?
2618	Yeah.	对
2619	Why?	为什么?
2620	Why do you think?	为什么?
2621	Well, I think they probably had a, I don't know.	嗯,我想他们可能有一个,我不知道。
2622	There was some lawfare, I think.	我想是有一些律师
2623	It was a-	这是...
2624	What do you think was unhappy about the relationship to you?	你觉得和你的关系很不开心吗?
2625	Well, I don't know all the things,	嗯,我不知道所有的东西,
2626	but this is before supporting Trump or anything like that.	但这是在支持特朗普之前的事
2627	Yeah.	对
2628	In fact, I supported Biden	事实上,我支持拜登
2629	and before that Hillary and before that Obama.	在希拉里和奥巴马之前
2630	So-	所以说...
2631	Right.	对
2632	That's why I was asking if this comes as a shock.	这就是为什么我问,如果这是一个惊吓。
2633	You know, I don't know if it could just be random.	你知道,我不知道它是否只是随机的。
2634	It could be, like they didn't tell us, you know,	就像他们没告诉我们一样
2635	why pick us?	为什么选我们?
2636	Why do such a crazy lawsuit?	为什么这么疯狂的诉讼?
2637	Randoms are bad.	随机是坏.
2638	Even if it is random, that's still bad.	就算是随机的,那还是不好的。
2639	It's still bad.	还坏么.
2640	I mean, that's just a marker of incompetence.	我的意思是,这只是一个标志无能。
2641	But if it's not random, well,	但如果不是随机的
2642	it seems to be highly unlikely to be random.	这似乎极不可能是随机的。
2643	Yes, and also, why attack SpaceX	是的,而且,为什么攻击SpaceX
2644	and not, say, Boeing or Lockheed?	而不是波音还是洛克希德?
2645	So, I think part of it might be	所以,我认为它的一部分可能是
2646	SpaceX 没有合并
2647	and the Democratic Party in the U.S.	和民主党在美国。
2648	is fundamentally controlled by the unions.	基本上受工会控制。
2649	So, I'm speculating here,	所以,我在这里猜测,
2650	but since we're not unionized,	但既然我们不是工会
2651	I think a very happy workforce.	我觉得工作很快乐
2652	And, you know, I'm out there on the factory floor.	而且,你知道,我在那里在工厂地板上。
2653	I don't see, people are happy.	不见,人心欢喜.
2654	It's a good vibe.	气息不错.
2655	Well, they're engaged in something ridiculously exciting.	嗯,他们订婚了一些荒谬的刺激。
2656	It's cool.	这很酷。
2657	At minimum.	起码
2658	Well, you know, that's not nothing.	嗯,你知道,这不是什么。
2659	You know, people can go a long ways	你知道,人们可以走很长的路
2660	if they're part of a project that's,	如果他们是项目的一部分,
2661	well, aiming at Mars, let's say.	好了,瞄准火星,让我们说。
2662	That's definitely aiming up.	这绝对是瞄准。
2663	So, that's really exciting.	所以,这真的令人兴奋。
2664	That's a real opportunity for people.	这是人们真正的机会。
2665	Yeah.	对
2666	What do you think of Trump?	你觉得特朗普怎么样?
2667	Well, I mean, I'm not gonna, you know,	嗯,我的意思是,我不会,你知道,
2668	I don't sort of subscribe to cults of personality.	我不太喜欢崇拜人格
2669	So, for me, it's really just, you know,	所以,对我来说,它真的只是,你知道,
2670	we've got a choice of administrations	我们有选择权
2671	and we have to pick one.	我们必须选一个。
2672	Yeah.	对
2673	And, you know, I think both,	而且,你知道,我认为两者,
2674	there are flaws on both sides.	双方都有缺点。
2675	What do you think his flaws are?	你觉得他的缺点是什么?
2676	And he's a complicated person	他是一个复杂的人
2677	and I've been trying to suss him out and figure him out	我一直想把他找出来
2678	because some of the things that look like flaws	因为有些东西看起来有缺陷
2679	might be advantages in disguise.	伪装可能有好处
2680	Like, he seems to me to be pretty good	喜欢,他看起来是相当不错的
2681	at standing up to psychopathic bullies, for example.	例如,在面对精神病欺负时。
2682	And that's kind of a useful skill and it's not easy.	这是一种有用的技能,而且不容易。
2683	You have to be a bit of a monster to manage that.	你必须是一个小怪物来管理它。
2684	And it isn't obvious to me how many of the,	我看不出来有多少人
2685	even the divisive idiosyncrasies of Trump	连特朗普分裂的典型
2686	are the mirror image of his capacity	他的能力的镜像
2687	to stand up to bullies.	对抗恶霸
2688	And that's a tough call, man.	这决定很艰难
2689	But so you've obviously decided to lay your,	但你显然已经决定放下你的,
2690	what, lay your efforts down on the side	什么,把努力放在一边
2691	of the Trump administration in the fourth coming election.	川普政府第四次选举即将来临
2692	And so-	这样...
2693	Yeah, I think it's a,	是的,我觉得这是一个,
2694	it's really, I think we need a change of administration.	这真的,我想我们需要更换管理。
2695	I think, you know, many years ago,	我想,你知道, 很多年前,
2696	the, I think probably the Democratic Party	我想可能是民主党
2697	was the party of meritocracy and of personal freedom.	是精英和个人自由的政党。
2698	Yeah.	对
2699	They used to be the free speech party.	他们曾经是言论自由党。
2700	And these days they seem to be the censorship party	现在看来他们是审查党
2701	under the guise of hate speech.	在仇恨言论的幌子下
2702	So weirdly, in my view, the Republican Party	奇怪的是,在我看来,共和党
2703	is actually the party of, that's the meritocracy party.	实际上是党, 这是功绩党。
2704	Because, you know, the Democrats are also promoting DEI,	因为,你知道,民主党也在推动DEI,
2705	which is really just another form of racism and sexism.	这其实只是另一种形式的种族主义和性别歧视。
2706	It's the most pernicious form, I think, actually.	我认为这是最有害的形式
2707	Right, so it's anti-Americancratic.	对,所以是反美国狂。
2708	DEI is fundamentally anti-maritocratic.	DEI本质上是反地中海主义的.
2709	So then-	这么说...
2710	It insists on dividing people by groups.	它坚持按群体划分人民。
2711	Right, so-	对,所以...
2712	As the primary, what would you say,	作为初级,你会说什么,
2713	conceptual distinction between individuals.	在概念上区分个人。
2714	Yes, in fact I think- Race, ethnicity, sex.	是的,事实上我认为... 种族,民族,性别。
2715	I think the Democratic Party is stoking division.	我觉得民主党正在分裂
2716	I think the evidence for that's clear.	我认为证据是明确的。
2717	All of this group identity nonsense	这些集体身份都是胡说八道的
2718	has made things much more, I can see it in Toronto.	在多伦多,我看得出来,这让事情变得更加复杂
2719	When my kids grew up in Toronto, downtown,	当我的孩子在市中心多伦多长大时
2720	I would say they were race, ethnicity, and gender blind.	我认为他们是种族、族裔和性别盲目的。
2721	Seriously.	说真的
2722	They had an unbelievably diverse range of friends	他们有很多不同的朋友
2723	and no one cared.	没人在乎
2724	And even in Toronto, that started to shift around	即使在多伦多, 开始改变
2725	with this emphasis on group division.	以群体划分为重点。
2726	It's a really ugly thing to see.	这是件很丑的事
2727	So yeah, not good, not good.	所以,是的,不是好,不是好。
2728	Yeah, so my view is that at this point in the United States,	是的,所以我的观点是,在美国的这个时候,
2729	the Republican Party is more in line with	共和党更符合
2730	a meritocracy and with personal freedom.	一个有个人自由的精英政治。
2731	I've never had a conservative,	我从未有过保守派
2732	many times with my left wing friends, let's say,	与我的左翼朋友多次, 让我们说,
2733	they'd refuse to talk to someone.	他们拒绝跟别人说话
2734	Me included, definitely.	我当然包括了
2735	Because I've invited prominent Democrats	因为我邀请了著名民主党人
2736	to come on my podcast in great numbers for a very long time	来到我的播客大量数量非常长的时间
2737	and I've got like absolutely nowhere with that.	我完全没有那种感觉
2738	They'll talk to me in private,	他们会私下跟我谈
2739	they will not talk to me in public.	他们不会在公众场合跟我说话
2740	And so that's never happened.	所以,这从来没有发生过。
2741	They're afraid of being shunned?	他们害怕被抛弃?
2742	Absolutely.	当然
2743	100%, that's what they're afraid of.	100%,这就是他们害怕的.
2744	Definitely.	当然
2745	And they've told me that.	他们告诉我的
2746	It's not a secret.	这不是秘密
2747	But that's never happened on the Republican side.	但共和党方面从未发生过这种情况.
2748	I found it much easier,	我发现它更容易,
2749	because I've talked to a lot of Democrats	因为我和很多民主党人谈过了
2750	and a lot of Republicans.	和许多共和党人
2751	And I found it much, much easier to talk to the Republicans.	我发现和共和党人谈话要容易得多。
2752	And that is somewhat of a shock.	这有点让人震惊。
2753	I wouldn't have necessarily expected that.	我肯定不会料到的
2754	Yeah, and I should be clear that,	是的,我应该明白,
2755	it's not like I think the Republican Party is flawless.	我觉得共和党不是完美无缺的
2756	It certainly isn't, it's got its issues.	当然不是,它有它的问题。
2757	There are extremists within the Republican Party	共和党内部有极端分子
2758	that I don't agree with.	我不赞成
2759	But it's a two-party system, essentially.	但本质上是两党制.
2760	You've got to pick one or the other.	得拣一一.
2761	And so you weigh the good and the bad.	故曰权衡善恶.
2762	And my opinion is that-	我的看法是...
2763	And you flip the coin.	而你翻转硬币。
2764	We need that the country would be better off	我们需要国家更好
2765	with the Republican administration than a Democrat.	与共和党政府而不是民主党。
2766	Well, Trump was pretty good at not having wars.	川普很擅长不打仗
2767	Yes.	对
2768	Yeah, which is actually quite a big thing.	是啊,这其实是一件大事。
2769	Like, it's really a big thing.	喜欢,这是一个真正的大事。
2770	And what he did with the Abraham Accords,	他对易卜拉欣的约言,
2771	that was a miracle, I think.	我认为,这是一个奇迹。
2772	Right, no, absolutely.	是的,不,绝对的。
2773	He should have got the Nobel Prize for that.	他应该为此获得诺贝尔奖.
2774	I think there's something to be said that,	我想有话要说
2775	you know, America needs a strong leader,	你知道,美国需要一个强大的领导者,
2776	and that we have the perception of strength.	而我们有力量感
2777	Yeah.	对
2778	Now, you have to admire that, you know,	现在,你必须佩服,你知道,
2779	Trump, after getting shot,	特朗普,中枪后
2780	with blood streaming down his face,	血流到他脸上
2781	it could have been a second shooter, who knows,	可能是第二个枪手谁知道
2782	nonetheless, you know, was fist-pumping fight-fight.	尽管如此,你知道,是拳击战斗。
2783	Yep.	对
2784	After being shot.	中枪后.
2785	Yep.	对
2786	I mean, and this is not-	我是说,这不是...
2787	He's an ordinary bastard, and he's funny, too.	他是个普通的混蛋,他也很幽默
2788	Yes, and he's brave.	对,他很勇敢
2789	Yep.	对
2790	He has courage.	他有胆量
2791	This is instinctual courage.	这是本能的勇气。
2792	Yep, yep.	对,对。
2793	It's not calculated.	未审计算.
2794	It's not some arranged event.	这不是安排好的
2795	It's in the moment.	即于一时.
2796	Well, you can see that then,	那么,你可以看到这一点,
2797	because that was not a time when you're gonna-	因为你现在不会...
2798	You see true courage in the moment.	你现在看到了真正的勇气
2799	Yep, yep, absolutely.	是的,是的,当然。
2800	And if you want a leader who's gonna deal with	如果你想要一个领导谁要去对付
2801	some very, very tough cookies out there,	一些非常,非常坚硬的饼干在那里,
2802	who's gonna, you know, deal with Putin,	谁要去,你知道, 处理普京,
2803	or Kim Jong-un, or, you know-	或者金正恩,或者,你知道的...
2804	China.	中国.
2805	Yeah, China.	是啊,中国。
2806	So, and they will be,	所以,他们会是,
2807	they will be, they'll think twice about messing with Trump.	他们会的,他们会三思而后行与特朗普。
2808	Yep.	对
2809	They'll think twice.	他们会三思而后行
2810	Okay, okay.	好,好,好,我们走
2811	And poor Biden can't make it up the stairs,	可怜的拜登无法爬上楼梯
2812	and obviously he's stepped out of the race,	显然他退出了比赛
2813	but nobody's gonna be intimidated by Biden.	但是没有人会被拜登吓倒
2814	It's impossible.	这是不可能的。
2815	But I think they will be intimidated by a guy	但我想他们会被一个男人吓倒
2816	who was fist-pumping after getting shot.	中枪后拳打脚踢
2817	Well, we saw that, I think, in his administration.	我们在他的政府里看到了这一点
2818	Because it was, peace did reign,	因为它是, 和平确实统治,
2819	and that was quite, that was quite,	这是相当的,这是相当的,
2820	well, that's a bit of empirical evidence.	嗯,这是一个有点经验性的证据。
2821	Can I ask you a little bit about	我能问你一些事情吗?
2822	one of the things that you've been relatively vocal about,	其中一件事你一直相对的声调,
2823	and I understand that there's a personal connection	我知道有个人联系
2824	to this as well.	也是为了这个
2825	So I am, for what it's worth,	所以我是,无论它的价值,
2826	I'm particularly unhappy with what my colleagues	我特别不高兴我的同事
2827	in the psychological field have done	在心理领域已经做了
2828	with regards to gender-affirming care.	关于性别确认的照料。
2829	I think they are a pack of contemptible cowards.	我认为他们是一群可鄙的懦夫
2830	And I think that everyone who's been involved in this	我认为所有参与此事的人
2831	in relationship to minors should go to prison.	与未成年人有关系的人应当入狱。
2832	I agree.	и種
2833	Okay, okay.	好,好,好,我们走
2834	Why do you agree?	你为什么同意?
2835	What's your oar in the water in this particular?	你的桨在水里是什么?
2836	This is the worst medical and psychological malpractice	这是最糟糕的医学和心理失常
2837	I've ever seen anywhere, including what I've done,	我见过任何地方,包括我做过的事
2838	what I've studied in reference to historical atrocity.	我研究过的历史暴行
2839	Eugenics, what do you call those, prefrontal lobotomy,	Eugenics,你所谓的前额叶切除术,
2840	even the sorts of things that were going on in Nazi Germany,	甚至纳粹德国发生的事情
2841	at least the bloody Nazis knew it was wrong	至少该死的纳粹知道这是错的
2842	and tried to hide it.	并试图隐藏它。
2843	So, okay, so what's your,	那么,好吧,那你是谁,
2844	why are you engaged in this particular battle?	你为什么要参加这场特别的战斗?
2845	I mean, you said you're gonna move	你说过要搬家的
2846	a couple of your company headquarters out of California	几个你公司总部出加州
2847	because of the last legislative move	因为最后的立法行动
2848	Gavin Newsom在转机问题上做的
2849	Yes, I mean, to be clear,	是的,我的意思是,说清楚,
2850	there were many things leading up to that point.	之前有很多事情
2851	Yes.	对
2852	And I just feel like, look,	我只是觉得,你看,
2853	it's not that it's the one straw,	这并不是说它是一个吸管,
2854	it's just the final straw.	这只是最后的吸管。
2855	Yeah, okay, okay, okay.	对,好,好,好
2856	So it's a cumulative issue, fair enough.	所以这是一个累积的问题,相当公平。
2857	It's a cumulative issue.	累计发行.
2858	Right.	对
2859	So it's not dramatic grandstanding, it's...	所以这不是戏剧性的夸张,这是...
2860	不,还有,我和Gavin Newsom谈过
2861	before where I said, if you pass legislation like this,	之前我说, 如果你通过这样的立法,
2862	if you sign legislation like this,	如果你签署这样的立法,
2863	that, in my view, puts children in danger.	我认为,这会使儿童处于危险之中。
2864	I will move my companies out of California.	我把我的公司搬出加利福尼亚
2865	He knew that ahead of time.	他提前知道这一点。
2866	Okay, and so, okay, you've talked to him directly about this.	好吧,那么,好吧, 你直接和他谈过了。
2867	What the hell is he doing?	他他妈的在干什么?
2868	Like, I cannot understand, I really cannot understand.	我无法理解我真的无法理解
2869	I mean, the Democrats...	我的意思是,民主党...
2870	He's pandering to the far left.	他向远方倾斜
2871	Why did the Democrat moderates	为什么民主党温和派
2872	constantly pander to the far left?	一直向左转?
2873	I worked with the Democrats in California for five years,	我在加州与民主党合作了五年
2874	trying to get them to separate themselves from the far left.	试图让他们从遥远的左边分离出来
2875	They wouldn't admit that they existed even,	他们不会承认他们的存在
2876	and they certainly would never separate them.	他们必定不会分离。
2877	They wouldn't admit, for example,	他们不会承认,比如,
2878	that Antifa even existed.	那个安提法甚至存在。
2879	Sure, while they're burning down buildings.	当然,当他们烧毁建筑物时。
2880	There's this unbelievable blind spot	有个难以置信的盲点
2881	with regards to the far left radicals,	关于最左翼激进分子,
2882	and the moderate Democrats are,	温和的民主党人,
2883	I think they're useful idiots fundamentally.	我认为他们基本上是有用的白痴。
2884	Yeah, well, I mean, going back to the so-called	回到所谓的
2885	gender affirming care, which is a terrible euphemism.	一种可怕的委婉说法。
2886	That's for sure.	当然
2887	It's really a child's sterilization,	这真的是一个孩子的绝育,
2888	is what it should be.	这是应该的。
2889	No, there's mutilation, too.	不,还有残割。
2890	Mutilation.	残割
2891	Yeah, well, we want to make sure that that amalgam is...	是啊,我们想确保汞合金是...
2892	Sure, sure, fair enough.	当然,当然,足够公平。
2893	It's child mutilation, it's our sterilization.	这是切除儿童, 这是我们的绝育。
2894	Under the guise of gender affirming care and compassion.	以确认关爱和同情的性别为幌子。
2895	Right.	对
2896	Right, right.	对,对。
2897	I can't...	我无法...
2898	It's evil.	邪见.
2899	I literally can't imagine anything worse than that.	我简直无法想象比这更糟的事
2900	Yes, it's evil.	是的,这是邪恶的。
2901	I mean, you're taking kids who are obviously	我的意思是,你带的孩子谁明显是
2902	often far below the age of consent.	通常低于同意年龄。
2903	Yep, confused, miserable.	是的困惑悲惨
2904	Yes, the reality is that almost every child	是的,现实是几乎每个孩子
2905	goes through some kind of identity crisis.	经历了某种身份危机。
2906	Yeah, it's part of puberty.	是啊,这是青春期的一部分。
2907	Exactly, it's just part of growing up.	没错,这只是成长的一部分。
2908	If...	如果...
2909	So it's very possible for adults to manipulate children	所以成年人可以操纵孩子
2910	who are having a natural identity crisis	面临自然身份危机的人
2911	into believing that they are the wrong gender.	相信他们是错的性别。
2912	Yep, yeah, especially, yeah, absolutely.	是的,是的,特别是,是的,绝对的。
2913	And that they need to be the other gender,	他们需要成为另一个性别,
2914	or they need to have a boy, or a boy needs to go be a girl,	或者他们需要一个男孩, 或者一个男孩需要去是一个女孩,
2915	or, you know, and that the...	或者,你知道,还有...
2916	And that that will solve all their problems.	这将解决他们的所有问题。
2917	And that will solve their problems,	这样就能解决他们的问题
2918	and then they give them sterilizing drugs,	然后给他们消毒药物,
2919	which are called also misnomer, puberty blocker.	它们也被称为错误的, 青春期阻塞器。
2920	These are sterilization drugs,	这些是消毒药,
2921	so they can never have children again.	这样他们就再也不能有孩子了
2922	Yeah.	对
2923	They can have double mastectomies, mutilation.	他们可以做双乳房切除术,切除术.
2924	They have their forearms stripped	他们的前臂被剥了
2925	to build non-functioning penises.	来建立无功能的阴茎。
2926	是啊,这是macabre。
2927	And I mean, we have an age of consent for a reason.	我的意思是,我们有一个同意的年龄是有原因的。
2928	That the reason you can't get, say, tattoos,	所以你不能得到,比如,纹身,
2929	below age 18, or drink, or drive, you know...	不到18岁,或喝酒,或开车,你知道...
2930	There are ages at which you can do things,	有些时候你可以做一些事情,
2931	because if we allow children to take permanent actions	因为如果我们允许儿童采取永久行动
2932	when they're 10, 12, 14 years old,	当他们10、12、14岁的时候
2933	they will do things that they subsequently greatly regret.	他们将做自己所悔恨的事。
2934	Yes, I've interviewed a couple of people	是的,我采访过几个人
2935	who've done exactly that, and it's damn painful.	到底是谁干的实在太痛苦了
2936	So, I think you, during...	所以,我认为你,在...
2937	Why are you willing to make this an issue, do you think?	你认为你为什么愿意把这个问题变成一个问题?
2938	I mean, it's sort of like the nameless issue.	我的意思是,这有点像无名问题。
2939	It happened to one of my older boys,	发生在我一个大男孩身上
2940	where I was essentially tricked into signing documents	在那里我基本上被骗到签署文件
2941	for one of my older boys, Xavier.	为我一个年长的孩子,泽维尔。
2942	This was before I had really any understanding	那时我还没明白
2943	of what was going on, and we had COVID going on.	我们让COVID继续前进
2944	So, there was a lot of confusion.	所以,这里有很多混乱。
2945	And I was told, oh, Xavier might commit suicide if he did.	我被告知,哦,Xavier 可能自杀,如果他这样做。
2946	That was a lie right from the outset.	这从一开始就是谎言。
2947	No reliable clinician ever believed that.	没有可靠的临床医生相信这一点。
2948	There was never any evidence for that.	没有任何证据证明这一点。
2949	And also, if there's a higher suicide rate,	还有如果自杀率更高
2950	the reason is, is because of the underlying depression	原因是,因为潜在的抑郁症
2951	and anxiety, and not because of the gender dysphoria.	和焦虑, 而不是因为性别障碍。
2952	And every goddamn clinician knows that, too.	每个该死的临床医生都知道这一点。
2953	And they're too cowardly to come out and say it, right?	他们太懦弱不敢出来说,对不对?
2954	And then we end up in exactly...	礛и挡狦
2955	When I saw that lie start to propagate,	当我看到谎言开始传播时
2956	it just made the hair on the back of my neck stand up.	它只是让我脖子后面的头发站起来。
2957	It's like, I see, so you're telling parents	就像,我明白了, 所以你告诉父母
2958	that unless they agree to this radical transformation	除非他们同意这种彻底的转变
2959	that their children are gonna die,	他们的孩子会死,
2960	and you think that's moral, and you think that's true.	你认为这是道德的, 你认为这是真实的。
2961	That is so pathological that it's almost incomprehensible.	这太病态了几乎无法理解
2962	I can't imagine anything worse.	我无法想象更糟糕的事
2963	I can't imagine a therapist doing anything worse than that,	我不能想象一个治疗师做比这更糟的事,
2964	or sitting by idly and remaining silent	或静静地坐着
2965	while his colleagues are doing it.	他的同事正在这样做。
2966	It's pathetic.	这是可悲的。
2967	It's incredibly evil.	这是令人难以置信的邪恶。
2968	And I agree with you that the people	我同意你的观点,人民
2969	that have been promoting this should go to prison.	一直在推动此事的人应该进监狱。
2970	It won't stop till that happens.	它不会停止直到发生。
2971	It'll just go underground.	它会只是去地下。
2972	Puberty blockers are being accessed online	Puberty 屏蔽器正在在线访问
2973	by kids all the time through non-medical channels.	经常通过非医疗渠道被孩子感染
2974	So, yeah, it's not gonna stop.	所以,是的,它不会停止。
2975	Okay, so I see, so that's a personal connection.	好吧,我明白了,所以这是一个私人联系。
2976	I was tricked into doing this,	我被骗这样做,
2977	and it wasn't explained to me that puberty blockers	也没有向我解释青春期的阻断者
2978	are actually just sterilization drugs.	其实只是消毒药
2979	Anyway, and so, I lost my son, essentially.	总之,所以,我失去了我的儿子,基本上。
2980	So, they call it dead naming for a reason.	因此,他们称它死命名是有原因的.
2981	Yeah, I'm...	对,我...
2982	The reason it's called dead naming	这叫死亡命名的原因
2983	is because your son is dead.	因为你儿子死了
2984	So, my son Xavier is dead, killed by the walk-blind virus.	我儿子Xavier死了死于盲道病毒
2985	I'm sorry to hear that.	叹曰.
2986	I can't imagine what that would be like.	我无法想象那会是什么样子
2987	So...	所以说...
2988	Yeah, and there's lots of people in that situation now.	是的,现在有很多人处于这种境地。
2989	It's not pretty, and lots of demolished kids.	它不漂亮, 很多被拆毁的孩子。
2990	Yes.	对
2991	Yeah, well, that's a good reason to be the final straw.	是啊,这是一个很好的理由作为最后的吸管。
2992	All right, so let's...	好吧,我们...
2993	So, I vowed to destroy the walk-blind virus after that,	所以,我发誓要摧毁盲目的病毒之后,
2994	and we're making some progress.	我们正在取得一些进展。
2995	Join the club?	加入俱乐部?
2996	Yeah.	对
2997	Okay, let's end on something positive.	好吧,让我们结束一些积极的东西。
2998	You're shooting for Mars.	你在为火星射击
2999	What do you think that's doing for people?	你觉得这对人有什么好处?
3000	Because it's kind of...	因为有点...
3001	I don't wanna be...	我不想成为...
3002	I don't wanna step out of my box here,	我不想从盒子里出来
3003	but it's really interesting to me to watch you do this,	但看着你这么做对我来说真的很有趣
3004	because it's preposterous, right?	因为它是荒谬的,对不对?
3005	It's a preposterous thing to do, to go to Mars.	虚妄之事,至火星.
3006	And yet, I was old enough when the moon landing	然而,当月球登陆时,我已经足够大了
3007	was happening to remember what that was like, right?	正在发生记得那是什么样子,对不对?
3008	It was an adventure, positive adventure,	这是一个冒险,积极的冒险,
3009	everybody could participate,	每个人都可以参加,
3010	and it was an unbelievable technological accelerant,	这是令人难以置信的技术加速器,
3011	and it was a mark of faith in the...	这是对...
3012	Well, in the West, I would say, right?	嗯,在西方,我会说,对不对?
3013	In the might of the United States and the upward aim,	在美国的力量和向上的目标,
3014	and so I know you're playing,	所以我知道你在玩游戏
3015	I don't mean in the game-like manner.	我不是说玩游戏
3016	That's what you're tapping into.	这就是你正在挖掘。
3017	What do you think you're doing with the Mars venture?	你以为你和火星公司有什么关系?
3018	Well, the Mars venture, I think,	嗯,火星冒险,我想,
3019	is part of the expansion of consciousness beyond Earth.	是意识扩张的一部分超越地球。
3020	So...	所以说...
3021	I mean, I wanna be clear that I don't think	我的意思是,我想说清楚,我不认为
3022	we should apply some vast amount of resources to Mars.	我们应该把大量资源投入火星
3023	I'm talking about less than 1% of our economic output	我说的是不到1%的经济产出
3024	should go to making life multi-planetary,	应该去创造生命多行星,
3025	but it is a natural extension	但它是一个自然延伸
3026	of expanding the scope and scale of consciousness.	扩大意识的范围和规模。
3027	So I think we wanna do everything we can	我想我们想尽一切办法
3028	to make sure that Earth is gonna be great for a long time,	确保地球会是伟大的很长时间,
3029	as long as possible,	尽可能长久
3030	but also allocate a small amount of resources,	并分配少量的资源,
3031	like I said, less than 1% of our economy,	就像我说的,不到我们经济的1%,
3032	to extending life beyond Earth.	将生命延伸到地球以外
3033	And ultimately to other star systems.	最终进入其他恒星系统.
3034	Right, and so that's perfectly in keeping	是的,所以这是完美的保持
3035	with what you described at the beginning of our discussion	我们讨论开始时你所描述的
3036	about the manner in which you resolved	关于你是如何解决的
3037	your crisis of faith as a child,	你小时候的信仰危机,
3038	your commitment to the validity of consciousness,	你对意识有效性的承诺,
3039	your desire to, what would you say,	你想说什么?
3040	facilitate its transformation, development, extension.	促进其转变、发展、推广。
3041	That goes along with your pro-human ethos.	这符合你亲人类的风格
3042	Right, so that's all thinking from first principles.	是的,所以这是所有的想法从第一原则。
3043	So I think you are stuck in the religious camp	所以我觉得你被困在宗教营里了
3044	one way or another, so.	这样或那样
3045	Like I said, I don't mind it being called a religion,	就像我说的我不介意被称作宗教
3046	but I think.	但我认为。
3047	Yeah, well, I came here, at least in part today,	是啊,我来到这里, 至少一部分今天,
3048	to find out just what the hell your religion was.	来找出你的信仰是什么
3049	So I wanna end with this, if you don't mind.	如果你不介意的话,我想结束这一切
3050	So I also asked you why you trust yourself	所以我还问你为什么相信你自己
3051	in relationship to AI, and you said,	和AI的关系, 你说,
3052	well, I don't entirely, and so I thought that's a good answer.	好吧,我不完全, 所以我认为这是一个很好的答案。
3053	But I mean, more broadly, like you have a lot of admirers,	但是,我的意思是,更广泛的, 就像你有很多崇拜者,
3054	there's a lot of people who are hoping	很多人都希望这样
3055	that you're the guy that you, what would you say?	你才是那个人你会怎么说?
3056	That you're the guy who can do	你是那个可以做到的人
3057	what you say you're going to do,	你说你会做什么
3058	and there's lots of evidence that you can.	有很多证据可以证明
3059	It's like, you think it's reasonable for people to trust you?	你觉得人们信任你是合理的吗?
3060	Well, I think so.	嗯,我想是这样。
3061	I mean, I wouldn't say trust me entirely,	我的意思是,我不会说完全相信我,
3062	but I think on balance, my track record suggests	但我认为平衡点我的成绩表明
3063	that I'm fairly trustworthy.	我相当值得信赖
3064	What elements of it do you think suggest that particularly?	你认为其中哪些内容特别说明这一点?
3065	Well, I've built a lot of companies	我建了许多公司
3066	that have done useful things.	已经做了有用的事情。
3067	Yeah, you've built a lot of impossible companies	是啊,你已经建立了很多不可能的公司
3068	that have done useful things, right?	已经做了有用的事情,对不对?
3069	So that's an existence proof of sorts?	这就是存在的证据吗?
3070	Yeah, and-	对,还有...
3071	Do you accept the validity of entrepreneurial striving	您是否接受创业努力的有效性
3072	as an indicator of ethical conduct,	作为道德行为的一项指标,
3073	and I think that's valid?	我认为这是有效的?
3074	Yeah, I wouldn't be able to recruit great people	是啊,我不会招到好人
3075	to work with me to build these companies,	和我合作来建立这些公司,
3076	I think, if I was a really bad person,	我认为,如果我是一个真正的坏人,
3077	they just wouldn't want to work with me.	他们只是不想跟我合作
3078	So I think one of the tests for assessing someone's character	所以,我认为测试之一评估某人的性格
3079	is to look at the character of their friends	看他们朋友的性格
3080	and their associates,	以及他们的同伙,
3081	and while people can put up a mask themselves	人们可以自己戴上面具
3082	for their character,	他们的性格,
3083	their friends and associates will not.	他们的朋友和同伙不会。
3084	Yeah.	对
3085	And so you can judge a person's character	你可以判断一个人的性格
3086	by their friends and associates,	他们的朋友和伙伴,
3087	and to some degree, by their enemies.	在某种程度上, 由他们的敌人。
3088	Right.	对
3089	If evil people hate you,	如果邪恶的人恨你
3090	well, you might be doing something right.	好吧,你可能会做一些正确的事情。
3091	Okay, sir, thank you.	好的先生谢谢
3092	All right, thank you.	好吧,谢谢你。
3093	Much appreciated.	非常感谢。
3094	Very good to talk to you.	很高兴跟你说话
3095	It was a real privilege.	这是一个真正的特权。
3096	You're welcome.	不用谢
3097	Yeah, good.	是啊,不错。
3098	All right.	好吧,我们走。
3099	You bet.	当然
3100	Ha.

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