独家专访：起诉川普的特别检察官打破沉默 | 2026.7.3
字幕摘录
| 时间 | 英文 | 中文 |
|---|---|---|
| 0:05 | I stand by my decisions in special counsel, including the decision to bring charges against | 我以特别顾问的身份支持我的决定,包括决定对 |
| 0:11 | President Trump. | 川普总统. |
| 0:13 | Our investigation developed proof beyond a reasonable doubt that President Trump engaged | 我们的调查得出了确凿的证据 川普总统介入 |
| 0:18 | in criminal activity. | 在犯罪活动中。 |
| 0:21 | If asked whether to prosecute a former president based on the same facts today, I would do | 如果被问及是否根据今天的同样事实起诉前总统,我将这样做。 |
| 0:27 | so regardless of whether that president was a Democrat or a Republican. | 所以不管总统是民主党还是共和党 |
| 0:32 | No one. | 没有人。 |
| 0:34 | No one should be above the law in this country, and the law required that he be held to account. | 这个国家任何人都不应凌驾于法律之上,法律要求追究他的责任。 |
| 0:40 | So that is what I did. | 这就是我所做的。 |
| 0:43 | Hi again, everybody. | 大家好,你们好 |
展开字幕全文（791 条）
| 序号 | 英文 | 中文 |
|---|---|---|
| 1 | I stand by my decisions in special counsel, including the decision to bring charges against | 我以特别顾问的身份支持我的决定,包括决定对 |
| 2 | President Trump. | 川普总统. |
| 3 | Our investigation developed proof beyond a reasonable doubt that President Trump engaged | 我们的调查得出了确凿的证据 川普总统介入 |
| 4 | in criminal activity. | 在犯罪活动中。 |
| 5 | If asked whether to prosecute a former president based on the same facts today, I would do | 如果被问及是否根据今天的同样事实起诉前总统,我将这样做。 |
| 6 | so regardless of whether that president was a Democrat or a Republican. | 所以不管总统是民主党还是共和党 |
| 7 | No one. | 没有人。 |
| 8 | No one should be above the law in this country, and the law required that he be held to account. | 这个国家任何人都不应凌驾于法律之上,法律要求追究他的责任。 |
| 9 | So that is what I did. | 这就是我所做的。 |
| 10 | Hi again, everybody. | 大家好,你们好 |
| 11 | It's now five o'clock here in Washington, D.C. | 现在是华盛顿的五点 |
| 12 | This show, Deadline White House, debuted the day that Donald Trump fired Jim Comey. | 这场演出,"最后的白宫",在唐纳德·特朗普解雇吉姆·科米的当天首演. |
| 13 | He fired him for refusing to look the other way in the Mike Flynn case, among other actions | 他因为拒绝在迈克·弗林案中另眼相看而被炒鱿鱼 |
| 14 | that Donald Trump viewed as annoying and disloyal. | 唐纳德・特朗普认为 烦人和不忠诚。 |
| 15 | Since that first broadcast, we have endeavored to chronicle Donald Trump's vicious war against | 自那首播以来 我们一直努力记录唐纳德·特朗普的恶毒战争 |
| 16 | the rule of law in our country, and no one understands what Trump's attacks against | 也没有人明白特朗普的进攻 |
| 17 | the rule of law look like better than that man, former special counsel Jack Smith. | 法治看起来比那人更好 前特别律师杰克・史密斯 |
| 18 | So much of what we know about Donald Trump's efforts to undo his defeat in the 2020 presidential | 关于唐纳德·特朗普在2020年总统大选中为平息他的失败而作的努力,我们所知道的这么多 |
| 19 | election against Joe Biden and his mishandling of some of the country's most sensitive national | 以及他对国内一些最敏感国民的处理不当, |
| 20 | security secrets is because of the tireless work of Jack Smith and his team. | 安全秘密是因为杰克·史密斯和他的团队的不懈工作. |
| 21 | More than anyone else in the country, he represented a threat to Donald Trump because he followed | 他比国内任何其他人都更加对唐纳德·特朗普构成威胁,因为他跟随. |
| 22 | the facts, and they led him deep inside Donald Trump's government and political coalition. | 他们带领他深入唐纳德·特朗普的政府和政治联盟 |
| 23 | The facts reveal crimes, and those crimes were serious enough to represent a very real | 事实揭示了罪行,而这些罪行的严重性足以代表一个非常真实的、 |
| 24 | risk of conviction at trial for Donald Trump. | 在对唐纳德·特朗普的审判中有可能被定罪。 |
| 25 | That's the standard to indict somebody. | 这是起诉某人的标准 |
| 26 | And because of that fact, Donald Trump has called Jack Smith horrible things, a, quote, | 由于这个事实,唐纳德·特朗普称杰克·史密斯为可怕的事情,引文如下: |
| 27 | a thug, a scoundrel, a criminal, and a sick man. | 暴徒,恶棍,罪犯,病人. |
| 28 | And we could actually go on and on, but we don't want to waste our time that way. | 我们实际上可以继续, 但我们不想浪费我们的时间。 |
| 29 | Trump has threatened to prosecute him, and Jack Smith has made clear that he was just | 特朗普威胁要起诉他,杰克·史密斯也明确表示他只是 |
| 30 | doing his job. | 尽他的职责 |
| 31 | He would do it all over again if given the chance. | 如果有机会,他会再做一次 |
| 32 | In his letter to Attorney General Merrick Garland delivering his final report, he writes | 他在给总检察长梅里克·加兰的信中递交了最后报告。 |
| 33 | this, quote, | 这个 引用一下 |
| 34 | While we were not able to bring the cases we charged to trial, I believe the fact that | 虽然我们未能将我们指控的案件提交审判,但我相信, |
| 35 | our team stood up for the rule of law matters. | 我们的团队支持法治事务。 |
| 36 | I believe the example our team set for others to fight for justice without regard for the | 我认为,我们团队树立了榜样,让其他人为正义而斗争,而不顾 |
| 37 | personal costs matters. | 个人费用很重要。 |
| 38 | The facts as we uncovered them in our investigation and as we set forth in my report matter. | 我们在调查中以及在我的报告中陈述的事实。 |
| 39 | That's where we start the hour. | 这就是我们开始的时间。 |
| 40 | Joining us for our first interview, former Special Counsel Jack Smith, thank you so much | 加入我们的第一次采访 前特别顾问杰克·史密斯 非常感谢你 |
| 41 | for doing this. | 因为这样做。 |
| 42 | Thank you so much for having me. | 谢谢你邀请我 |
| 43 | I asked you this when you walked in, and I'll ask you, how weird is it to view it as part | 我问你这个 当你走进来, 我会问你, 如何奇怪 它看它的一部分 |
| 44 | of your service to tell the story of the investigations you led? | 你为讲述你所领导的调查情况而服务? |
| 45 | Yeah, well, you know, I was a career prosecutor. | 是啊,你知道,我是一个职业检察官。 |
| 46 | I worked in the Justice Department and other prosecutors' offices for near on 30 years. | 我在司法部和其他检察官办公室工作了近30年。 |
| 47 | And I don't know if your viewers know this, but I work in Republican and Democratic administrations | 我不知道你的观众是否知道这个 但我在共和党和民主政府工作 |
| 48 | over and over. | 一次又一次 |
| 49 | I was the acting U.S. attorney in the first Trump administration in Nashville, Tennessee. | 我是田纳西州纳什维尔第一任特朗普政府的代理美国律师. |
| 50 | And that administration appointed me to a position running a war crimes tribunal for | 当局任命我担任 领导战争罪法庭的职务 |
| 51 | the State Department. | 国务院。 |
| 52 | So I have investigated cases focusing on the facts and the law throughout my career. | 因此,我调查了整个职业生涯中关注事实和法律的案件。 |
| 53 | We did this case the same way, under the same standards. | 我们以同样的方式,按照同样的标准这样做。 |
| 54 | And you know, the thing that's, I think, important for your viewers to know is those standards | 你知道,我认为,重要的是, 让你的观众知道 这些标准 |
| 55 | are not meant to change from one administration to the next. | 目的不是要从一个行政当局改为另一个行政当局。 |
| 56 | And in my experience, until now, they haven't. | 以我的经验,直到现在,他们还没有。 |
| 57 | And so, you know, I think we are facing an attack on the rule of law that is different | 所以,你知道,我认为我们正面临 一次对法治的攻击,这是不同的 |
| 58 | in kind and scope to anything I've seen in my lifetime. | 我一生中所见到的一切 |
| 59 | And one of the reasons I wanted to be with you here today in advance of the Fourth of | 也是我今天想和你们在一起的原因之一 |
| 60 | July, celebrating the birth of a country that we all love, is to celebrate the public | 七月,庆祝我们所爱的国家诞生 就是庆祝公众 |
| 61 | servants who do this work, the people I spent my career working shoulder to shoulder with. | 做这项工作的仆人, 我度过的职业生涯 肩并肩地工作。 |
| 62 | I loved being a prosecutor, and part of it was I loved being around these sort of people. | 我喜欢当检察官 一部分是我喜欢和这些人在一起 |
| 63 | And it angers me to see them victimized, to see them demonized for doing their jobs. | 看着他们受害,看到他们因工作被妖魔化,这让我很生气. |
| 64 | I think it's really important that we stand up for them and let them know that there are | 我认为,真正重要的是,我们要 站在他们 并让他们知道有 |
| 65 | a lot of people out there who back them and who are with them. | 很多人在那里 谁支持他们,谁与他们在一起。 |
| 66 | And that's not just the people who've been targeted and fired for no reason for doing | 不仅仅是那些被攻击和解雇的人 |
| 67 | their jobs. | 他们的工作。 |
| 68 | It's also the people still in the Justice Department today. | 今法部尚存者也. |
| 69 | There are a lot of good career prosecutors who right now are working under incredibly | 有很多优秀的职业检察官 现在在令人难以置信的工作之下 |
| 70 | difficult circumstances and they're still trying to do the right thing. | 困难的环境,他们仍然试图做正确的事情。 |
| 71 | And these are not self-promoters. | 这些不是自我促进者。 |
| 72 | These are not people who are going to go out and, you know, quarrel about their achievements. | 这些人不会出去 争吵他们的成就 |
| 73 | We need to hold them up and celebrate them because they're part of what makes this | 我们要抓住他们 庆祝他们 因为他们是其中的一部分 |
| 74 | country great. | 国家棒极了。 |
| 75 | Some of the agents, FBI agents that work for you have been savaged by Donald Trump | 一些探员,联邦调查局探员 为你工作 被唐纳德·特朗普野蛮 |
| 76 | and Cash Patel. | 还有卡什·帕特尔 |
| 77 | At least one agent talked about being fired while he was taking care of his very, very | 至少有一名探员在照顾他的时候 谈到被解雇 |
| 78 | sick wife. | 病妇. |
| 79 | What did you expect to happen to these agents? | 你想这些特工会怎么样? |
| 80 | And do you regret putting any of them in that position? | 你后悔让他们中任何一个人处于这种地位吗? |
| 81 | I feel terrible about what has happened to them. | 我对发生在他们身上的事感到很难过 |
| 82 | If there's one thing I've spent my time on since leaving my work as special counsel is | 如果有一件事 我花了我的时间 离开我的工作 作为特别律师 |
| 83 | doing what I can to help and support them. | 尽我所能帮助他们 |
| 84 | The individual you're talking about, he was nursing his wife who was dying of cancer | 你所说的那个人 他正在照顾他因癌症去世的妻子 |
| 85 | and they fired him shortly after she died. | 在她死后不久 他们就开除了他 |
| 86 | I went to the funeral. | 我去参加葬礼了 |
| 87 | That funeral was filled with heroes, public servants on both families. | 葬礼上充满了英雄和公务员 |
| 88 | And I just can't believe that if people knew the character of these people I worked with, | 我简直不敢相信,如果人们知道这些人的性格 我和他们一起工作, |
| 89 | that they could ever stand for the demonizing that's happened to them. | 他们能忍受他们身上的恶魔化 |
| 90 | It's just beyond anything I can understand. | 这超出了我能理解的一切 |
| 91 | And my sense from my limited exposure to people in DOJ and the FBI for my time in | 从我对司法部和联邦调查局 的有限接触中我的感觉 |
| 92 | government is they don't really want to go do other things. | 政府是他们不想去别的地方 |
| 93 | They want this to be their life's work, protecting the country's national security. | 他们希望这是他们毕生的工作,保护国家的国家安全. |
| 94 | Will you talk a little bit about the price people have paid who have been purged for | 你能谈谈人们付出的代价吗? |
| 95 | political purposes? | 政治目的? |
| 96 | Yeah, I mean, you know, a lot of the agents and prosecutors I've worked with and to be | 是的,我的意思是,你知道, 很多特工和检察官 我曾经工作过 和将来 |
| 97 | clear, not just in special counsel's office, but throughout my career in a bunch of | 清楚,不只是在特别律师的办公室, 在整个我的职业生涯 在一堆 |
| 98 | different positions I've had in the Justice Department, this is the culmination of what | 我在司法部担任过不同职位, 这才是最重要的 |
| 99 | they wanted to do. | 他们想这样做。 |
| 100 | It's why they went to law school and it's their way of serving our | 所以他们才上法学院 这是他们为我们服务的方式 |
| 101 | country. | 国家。 |
| 102 | And we've seen so many times in these retribution cases where prosecutors | 我们见过很多次这些报复案件 检察官 |
| 103 | wouldn't be a part of it. | 不会是它的一部分。 |
| 104 | You know, prosecutors in Minnesota who are like, I'm not | 你知道,明尼苏达州的检察官 谁喜欢,我不是 |
| 105 | going to investigate the family member of a shooting victim. | 调查一名枪击受害者的家属 |
| 106 | I'm not doing that. | 我不会那么做的 |
| 107 | Prosecutors who wouldn't go through with retribution | 不报应的检察官 |
| 108 | prosecutions. | 起诉。 |
| 109 | And those people give up a lot. | 那些人放弃了很多 |
| 110 | This is their whole career. | 这是他们的整个职业生涯。 |
| 111 | A lot of them, you know, this isn't a lucrative sort of | 很多人,你知道, 这不是一种盈利 |
| 112 | profession for a lawyer in terms of what you could do in private practice. | 在私人执业时您可以做什么。 |
| 113 | They have to support their families. | 得供养眷属. |
| 114 | And one thing I have hope about is I think the traditions in the department, the people | 我所希望的一件事是 我认为部门的传统,人民 |
| 115 | that draw is so strong that we're going to have to rehabilitate the department for | 画得这么强,我们得修复部门 |
| 116 | sure. | 当然 |
| 117 | But there's a lot of people still there, still in place, wanting to do the right | 但还有很多人还在,还在,想做正确的事情 |
| 118 | thing, wanting to follow the facts and law, not be a part of any retribution campaign. | 不想成为任何报复行动的一部分 |
| 119 | And I think for me, one of the things I see as I go around and talk to folks and I try | 我想对我来说,我看到的一件事 当我绕过去和人们交谈,我尝试 |
| 120 | to travel around the country a lot and see different people and talk to different | 到处游荡 见到不同的人 和不同的人交谈 |
| 121 | perspectives about this is that those people, it really matters to them if they | 对他们来说,如果他们 |
| 122 | know they're being supported. | 知道他们被支持了 |
| 123 | Part of this campaign is to make people feel like isolated and feel like they don't | 这场运动的一部分是让人们感到孤立 觉得自己没有 |
| 124 | have people backing them up. | 有人支持他们。 |
| 125 | And so I just think it's really important. | 所以我觉得这很重要 |
| 126 | I want to express my support. | 我想表达我的支持。 |
| 127 | I think everybody else should express their support. | 我认为其他人都应该表示支持。 |
| 128 | It's not it's something with meaning and it's also something that matters. | 不是有意义的东西 也是重要的 |
| 129 | I mean, Chris Ray was the director of the FBI when the FBI agents that you're talking | 我的意思是,克里斯·雷是联邦调查局的局长 当时联邦调查局的特工,你说 |
| 130 | about went to work for you. | 约去为你工作。 |
| 131 | He said nothing. | 他什么都没说 |
| 132 | Why? | 为什么? |
| 133 | You know, I can't really comment on other people's choices. | 你知道,我不能真正评论 别人的选择。 |
| 134 | I would say would it help? | 我会说有帮助吗? |
| 135 | Well, I think my perspective on this is that in the moment we're in, which is a pretty | 我认为我的观点是,在我们进入的那一刻, 这是一个漂亮的 |
| 136 | dire moment, right, what we're facing, that we should be uplifting the people who are | 可怕的时刻,对,我们面对的, 我们应该提升人民 |
| 137 | doing the right thing. | 做对的事 |
| 138 | And I'll give you an example from from my life. | 我将举出我生命中的例子 |
| 139 | I resigned as special counsel. | 我辞去了特别顾问的职务。 |
| 140 | I know I need to get a lawyer because the president has said he wants to jail me for | 我知道我需要找个律师 因为总统说他想把我关进监狱 |
| 141 | doing my job. | 尽我的职责 |
| 142 | And so I retain lawyers, Covington and Berlin. | 所以我聘请了律师 Covington和柏林 |
| 143 | As soon as that becomes public, the president and the Justice Department target that law | 一旦公之于众,总统和司法部就以该法律为目标 |
| 144 | firm and they do it because they don't want me to have counsel. | 他们这样做是因为 他们不想我得到建议 |
| 145 | They don't want to have anyone represent me. | 他们不想让任何人代表我 |
| 146 | And what happened next was the very day that happened, Nicole, the lawyers at the | 接下来发生的事就是那天 妮可 律师们 |
| 147 | firm called me up and said, Jack, don't worry about it. | 公司打电话给我说 杰克 别担心 |
| 148 | We're there for you. | 我们在那里为你。 |
| 149 | They did not blink for a second. | 他们没有眨眼一秒钟。 |
| 150 | And as you know, that's very different than how some other law firms behaved. | 如你所知 这和其他一些律师事务所的行为完全不同 |
| 151 | I think we should focus on things like that and separating a firm like Covington and | 我认为我们应该专注于类似的事情 和分离一个公司 像科文顿和 |
| 152 | Berlin from other ones that didn't show courage to come. | 柏林来自其他没有表现出勇气的人. |
| 153 | Well, right. | 没错 |
| 154 | The ones that fought also have batted a thousand in the courts. | 参战者也在法庭上击败了一千人. |
| 155 | I think Judge Beryl Howell described those executive orders as giving her chills, | 我想贝里尔·豪威尔法官 描述这些行政命令 给她的寒冷, |
| 156 | chilling her to the bone. | 把她吓到骨子里 |
| 157 | But some of the giant law firms that were so central in | 但一些巨大的律师事务所 如此重要 |
| 158 | our politics in the first term didn't just capitulate to Trump. | 我们的政治在第一任 不只是屈服于特朗普。 |
| 159 | They're now working for Trump's Justice Department, firms like Paul Weiss and | 他们现在为特朗普的司法部工作, 保罗·魏斯和 |
| 160 | others. | 别人。 |
| 161 | What do you make of the damage they're doing to our democracy at a moment | 你如何看待他们对我们民主的破坏? |
| 162 | you describe as dire? | 你描述的很可怕吗? |
| 163 | Yeah. | 对 |
| 164 | Well, I think one of the problems, I mean, there's several layers, right? | 我认为其中的一个问题, 我的意思是,有好几层,对不对? |
| 165 | One of the problems right today, besides the the retribution prosecutions, | 今天的问题之一 除了报复起诉之外 |
| 166 | is that the Justice Department can't do its job. | 司法部不能做它的工作。 |
| 167 | Right. | 对 |
| 168 | If you go to court, well, if you go to court and the judges don't trust you, | 如果你上法庭 如果你上法庭 法官不信任你 |
| 169 | you can't do the basic things that you need to do to represent the American people | 你不能做你需要做的基本事情 代表美国人民 |
| 170 | in court. | 在法院。 |
| 171 | And we have seen judges across the country say they can't trust | 我们在全国看到法官说他们不能相信 |
| 172 | prosecutors anymore. | 检察官现在。 |
| 173 | And that has such a cascading effect on any sort of case. | 这对任何案件都有连锁反应 |
| 174 | And, you know, I can't count how many opinions, but one opinion like that in my | 而且,你知道,我不能数 多少意见,但一个意见 这样在我的 |
| 175 | career would have been seismic. | 职业生涯会是地震 |
| 176 | People could not would not know what to do if a court said, you know, trust that's | 人们不可能不知道该怎么办 如果一个法庭说,你知道,信任是 |
| 177 | been built over generations has been lost in days. | 几代人建造的建筑在数日内已经失传。 |
| 178 | Right. | 对 |
| 179 | And that's happening every day. | 这每天都会发生。 |
| 180 | And so regardless of what you think politically, they're just not effective at | 所以不管你从政治上想什么, 他们只是没有效果 |
| 181 | doing their job anymore. | 做他们的工作。 |
| 182 | They've jettisoned expertise. | 他们放弃了专业技能 |
| 183 | Right. | 对 |
| 184 | And so we have a situation where we've got rid of people who know how to | 因此,我们有一个情况,我们已经 摆脱的人谁知道如何 |
| 185 | protect our national security. | 保护我们的国家安全。 |
| 186 | And we think that that's somehow not going to have an effect on our national | 我们认为这不会影响我们的国家 |
| 187 | security. | 警卫。 |
| 188 | Brian Driscoll 我不知道你是不是 | |
| 189 | know who he is. | 知道他是谁。 |
| 190 | He made a great video at the beginning to kind of rally the troops | 他拍了个很棒的视频 开始召集部队 |
| 191 | that seemed from the outside. | 这似乎从外面。 |
| 192 | Yeah. | 对 |
| 193 | I mean, he's a folk hero in the FBI. | 他是联邦调查局的英雄 |
| 194 | If you were casting for a hero, that's what they look like. | 如果你是选英雄的话 他们就是那样的 |
| 195 | Central casting, yes. | 中央铸造,是的。 |
| 196 | And just for your viewers, this is a guy, career agent, you know, mob | 对你观众来说,这是一个家伙, 职业经纪人,你知道,暴徒 |
| 197 | investigator, SWAT team, hostage rescue, served overseas, medal of value, bravery | 特警队 人质救援 海外服役 价值勋章 勇敢 |
| 198 | medals, all these things, and an expert in counterintelligence. | 奖章,所有这些东西, 一个反情报专家。 |
| 199 | They got rid of him because he stood up for agents who were being targeted | 他们把他赶走了,因为他支持那些被盯上的人 |
| 200 | properly. | 说得好 |
| 201 | You can't tell me you cannot tell me our country is as safe as it was | 你不能告诉我你不能告诉我 我们的国家和以前一样安全 |
| 202 | when people like that are being let go and fired for no reason. | 那种人被无故解雇 |
| 203 | Well, the purge seems to have multiple tentacles. | 清洗似乎有多个触手 |
| 204 | It's for FBI agents and prosecutors who worked on your two cases. | 这是为调查你两起案件的FBI探员和检察官准备的 |
| 205 | It's also for people who aren't doing the personal political bidding of the | 也是为了那些不听政治命令的人 |
| 206 | individuals there. | 个人在那里。 |
| 207 | I think Mr. | 我认为,先生 |
| 208 | Bove started that in the short time he was there. | 鲍夫在短时间里就开始了 |
| 209 | Cash Patel, based on his account, seems to be carrying that out for deeply | 现金帕特尔,根据他的账户, 似乎正在深深地执行 |
| 210 | personal conduct. | 个人行为。 |
| 211 | What does that mean for the people who were there because it was their life's | 这对当时在场的人们意味着什么? |
| 212 | dream to do that work to protect the country? | 梦想做这个工作来保护国家? |
| 213 | What are they doing instead? | 他们在做什么? |
| 214 | Yeah, I mean, it's very tough because, you know, the people were talking about | 是啊,我的意思是,这是非常艰难的 因为,你知道, 人们在谈论 |
| 215 | these people I spent my career with that I've so enjoyed their company and I have | 我和这些人一起度过我的职业生涯 我很喜欢他们的陪伴 |
| 216 | both respect and affection for. | 既尊重又爱 |
| 217 | They're resilient people, right? | 他们是有弹性的人,对不对? |
| 218 | And they're not going to quit at this first sign of resistance. | 他们不会在第一次反抗时退出 |
| 219 | And so, as I say, as many as these examples that we've seen where people have | 所以,正如我所言, 和我们所看到的这些例子一样多 |
| 220 | just said, I'm not going to be a part of that because of their integrity, because | 我只是说,我不会成为其中的一部分 因为他们的正直,因为 |
| 221 | of their character. | 他们的性格。 |
| 222 | There are a lot of people still in place. | 众生尚存. |
| 223 | And I want to be clear, these are not people who are like throwing sand in the | 我想说清楚,这些人不是像扔沙子一样 |
| 224 | gears. | 齿轮 |
| 225 | They're just doing their job as they're supposed to do it, following the | 他们只是做他们该做的,跟随 |
| 226 | facts and the law. | 事实和法律。 |
| 227 | But is that because they haven't run into any friction from the politicization and | 但这是因为他们没有 遇到任何摩擦 从政治化和 |
| 228 | the weaponization cases? | 武器案吗? |
| 229 | Yeah, I think that's right. | 是的,我想这是正确的。 |
| 230 | I mean, I think, you know, what I tell friends who are | 我的意思是,我认为,你知道, 我告诉朋友谁是 |
| 231 | still in the department is serve as long as you can. | 仍然在部门服务 尽可能长。 |
| 232 | The Justice Department, our country needs the Justice Department to do its job and | 司法部,我们的国家需要 司法部的工作和 |
| 233 | you should do it as long as you feel like you can. | 你应该尽你所能 |
| 234 | And obviously, if you're asked to do something that you know is wrong, then your | 显然,如果你被要求做一些 你知道是错的,那么你的 |
| 235 | numbers up and you can't do it. | 数字上升,你不能做到这一点。 |
| 236 | I would also add, Nicole, I think one of the things that maybe isn't being talked | 我还想说,妮可,我觉得其中一件事 也许没有被谈论 |
| 237 | about enough is the effect it is having on the Justice Department in the future. | 未来它对司法部的影响已经足够了 |
| 238 | You know, this last year, I've done a lot of speaking at law schools and | 去年我在法学院做了很多演讲 |
| 239 | universities. | 大学。 |
| 240 | And, you know, it used to be that getting a job in the U.S. | 而且,你知道,它曾经是 在美国找工作。 |
| 241 | Attorney's Office and the Justice Department was, you know, one of the most | 检察官办公室和司法部是 |
| 242 | sought after things you could possibly have and great people who want to serve | 追求你可能拥有的东西 和伟大的人 谁想服务 |
| 243 | their communities and serve their countries. | 他们的社区和为国家服务。 |
| 244 | That was their dream. | 那是他们的梦想。 |
| 245 | That was that was my dream as a young person. | 那是我年轻时的梦想 |
| 246 | Those people, I can tell you, are are not as interested and they're looking to do | 那些人,我可以告诉你, 他们没有那么感兴趣,他们想这样做 |
| 247 | other things. | 其他东西。 |
| 248 | And my concern is that that is, you know, the Justice Department | 我担心的是 司法部 |
| 249 | works. | 工作时 |
| 250 | I learned from mentors who who came before me and then I tried to do | 我从导师那里学到的,谁来到我面前,然后我试图做 |
| 251 | the same and teach those that followed me. | 教那些跟着我的人 |
| 252 | When you break that chain, it's a real problem. | 当你打破了锁链, 这是一个真正的问题。 |
| 253 | And so I tell people when I go to these universities and to law schools, don't | 所以我告诉人们 当我去这些大学和法学院,不要 |
| 254 | give up on it. | 放弃它。 |
| 255 | Don't I even if you don't like what's going on right now, there's | 即使你不喜欢现在发生的事,我也不要 |
| 256 | a much longer path here and we need you. | 这条路要长得多 我们需要你 |
| 257 | If you want to serve for you, I guess resilience, you're going to have to | 如果你想为你服务,我想你必须 |
| 258 | learn a little earlier in your career. | 早点学习你的事业 |
| 259 | But I don't want people to to get away from service as a result of this, because | 但我不希望人们因为这个而离开服务,因为 |
| 260 | I think that's a that's a knock on effect. | 我觉得那是对效果的打击 |
| 261 | It'll be much harder to solve than some of the things that we're seeing in the | 这比我们所看到的一些事情 更难解决 |
| 262 | headlines every day. | 每天头条新闻 |
| 263 | But I'm sure these people that listen to you speak admire you and you're in your | 但我敢肯定,这些倾听你说话的人 佩服你,你在你的 |
| 264 | career and the things you've been a part of. | 以及你曾经参与的事业 |
| 265 | Do you think that this is a department that you could send someone to go work in | 你认为这是一个部门 你可以派人去工作 |
| 266 | and they could be asked to indict you? | 并且他们可以被要求起诉你? |
| 267 | Oh, I think that could happen. | 哦,我想这可能会发生。 |
| 268 | But I also think in the Justice Department, even as we sit here right now, | 但我也在司法部想 即使我们现在坐在这里 |
| 269 | there are lots of people doing good work prosecuting violent crime, protecting | 有很多人做得很好 起诉暴力犯罪 保护 |
| 270 | their communities, doing the everyday work of being a prosecutor. | 做日常的检察官 |
| 271 | And yes, it could happen. | 是的,它可能会发生。 |
| 272 | That could happen. | 这有可能发生。 |
| 273 | And that would be unfortunate. | 这将是不幸的。 |
| 274 | And then you might have to step down. | 然后,你可能不得不 下来。 |
| 275 | But I don't want to see people run from public service because of that | 但我不想看到人们因为这个而退出公职 |
| 276 | possibility. | 可能的话。 |
| 277 | Do you expect to be indicted? | 你想被起诉吗? |
| 278 | Listen, Donald Trump has made a bunch of statements about me. | 听着,唐纳德·特朗普 对我发表了一堆声明 |
| 279 | He said he would indict you, yes. | 他说他会起诉你 是的 |
| 280 | I'll tell you, Nicole, I honestly do not spend a lot of time thinking about the | 我告诉你,妮可,我真的不花很多时间去想 |
| 281 | things he says about me and his threats about me. | 他说我的事和他对我的威胁 |
| 282 | I'm real focused on the people who I worked with, looking out for them. | 我真正专注于与我合作的人, 照顾他们。 |
| 283 | I'm real focused on how the Justice Department is going to be better going | 我真正专注于司法部会怎样更好 |
| 284 | forward, things like that. | 前进,类似的东西。 |
| 285 | In my situation, I did my job the right way. | 在我的处境下,我以正确的方式完成了我的工作。 |
| 286 | I had an all-star team. | 我有一个全明星团队。 |
| 287 | I mean, Nicole, the agents on my case, if I were to walk you through all the | 我的意思是,妮可,我的案子的探员 如果我要带你走遍所有 |
| 288 | awards they've won throughout generations of administrations, we would be here all | 他们赢得了数代行政奖 我们都会在这里 |
| 289 | night. | 边 |
| 290 | These were superstars. | 这些是超级巨星 |
| 291 | And I'm much more concerned that those people get to serve in the department, get | 我更担心的是 那些人在部门工作 |
| 292 | to serve in the bureau again someday. | 有一天再次在局里任职 |
| 293 | What do you say about the facts that you developed that you see, and I know you | 关于你发现的事实,你怎么说? |
| 294 | don't watch a ton of news, but that you see enough to know that the basic | 不要看一吨新闻, 但你看到足够 知道基本 |
| 295 | principle of recidivism likely applies to the election case. | 累犯原则可能适用于选举案件。 |
| 296 | The things that you charge are a lot of the same kinds of stories we cover. | 你收取的都是我们所报道的一样的故事 |
| 297 | What is the cost of someone not being held accountable for their crimes? | 不追究其罪行的责任的代价是什么? |
| 298 | Yeah, I mean, if you talk about the pardons of these people convicted for the | 是啊,我的意思是,如果你谈论 赦免这些人被定罪 |
| 299 | violence on January 6th, right, there's all sorts of costs. | 暴力发生在1月6日,没错,有各种代价。 |
| 300 | There's the obvious cost of just recidivism. | 重犯的代价很明显 |
| 301 | These are people who committed their crimes in the name and in the interest of | 这些人都是以自己的名义和利益犯罪 |
| 302 | Donald Trump, and he's returned the favor, right, by pardoning them. | 唐纳德・特朗普,他已经回来了 通过赦免他们。 |
| 303 | That sends one message to them. | 这向他们发出了一个信息。 |
| 304 | A message I'm equally concerned about is the message that it sends to law | 我同样关心的一条信息 就是它传递给法律的信息 |
| 305 | enforcement. | 执法。 |
| 306 | Supporting law enforcement should not be a political issue. | 支持执法不应是一个政治问题。 |
| 307 | It should not be a Republican Democrat red-blue thing. | 它不应该是共和党民主党红蓝的事情。 |
| 308 | And when I see people like Harry, Harry Dunn, who was here before, who put his | 当我看到像哈利,哈利・邓恩这样的人, 他曾经在这里,谁把他的 |
| 309 | life on the line to protect others and seeing him be smeared and vilified, | 生命在线上保护他人 看到他被污蔑和污蔑 |
| 310 | I don't understand that. | 我不明白这一点。 |
| 311 | That is, and I think more people who understand the actual facts of that, I | 这是,我认为更多的人 谁了解这个事实,我 |
| 312 | don't think most people are OK with that. | 别以为大多数人都同意 |
| 313 | It's deeply wrong. | 深错. |
| 314 | And I have a concern because we've seen that sort of thing in the incentives | 我有一个担心,因为我们看到 那种事情在激励 |
| 315 | it's set up. | 它的设置。 |
| 316 | What do you make of the fact? | 事实如何? |
| 317 | Do you support this theory that the pardons were step one, the slush fund is | 你是否支持这个理论 赦免是第一步, 流利基金是 |
| 318 | step two, and sending a message to the violent insurrectionists that not only | 第二步,向暴力叛乱者发出一个信息 |
| 319 | would they not be criminally accountable for their crimes, but they'd be paid for | 他们不会因为犯罪而负刑事责任,但他们会得到报酬 |
| 320 | their service? | 他们的服务? |
| 321 | Yeah, listen, I have no unique insight on that. | 听着 我对此没有独到的见解 |
| 322 | I see the same things you see. | 我看到你看到的一样的东西。 |
| 323 | Regardless of whether it sets an incentive system that you're suggesting, | 无论它是否设定了一个激励制度 你建议, |
| 324 | it's just plain wrong, right? | 这是完全错误的,对不对? |
| 325 | I mean, our country is built on values. | 我的意思是,我们的国家建立在价值观之上。 |
| 326 | That's what binds us all together. | 令一切众生结合. |
| 327 | And my view has always been that those values don't have anything to do with | 我的观点是,这些价值观与 |
| 328 | political parties. | 政党。 |
| 329 | When I'm a prosecutor and I have to get credibility, build credibility with a | 当我是检察官,我必须 获得信誉,用一个 |
| 330 | judge or a witness of the jury, right? | 法官还是陪审团的证人? |
| 331 | It's not about politics. | 与政治无关. |
| 332 | It's about truthfulness, integrity, being decent to each other, exhibiting kindness, | 这是关于诚实,正直, 彼此正直, 表现出善良, |
| 333 | judgment. | 判决。 |
| 334 | I think those are the things that bind us together. | 我认为这些东西把我们联系在一起。 |
| 335 | And those are the sort of things we should lean into. | 这些是我们应该投入的东西。 |
| 336 | Like, I feel like personally, as divided as we are, if we lean into issues of | 喜欢,我觉得像个人, 像我们分裂一样, 如果我们倾斜的问题 |
| 337 | integrity more, that that's the best hope to get people more back together than | 更正直的是,那是最好的希望 让更多的人回来 比 |
| 338 | we are now. | 我们现在是了。 |
| 339 | Do you think we still have a common definition of integrity? | 你觉得我们还有关于正直的共同定义吗? |
| 340 | I think we do. | 我想我们有 |
| 341 | But I also, for me personally, if I'm going to have that discussion, like I | 但我也一样, 对我个人来说, 如果我要讨论, 就像我一样 |
| 342 | said, I travel around and I go to places where people don't expect me to be. | 说,我四处旅行,去一些地方 人们不期望我。 |
| 343 | I do events, athletic events where I travel and I'll be in like rural areas or | 我做运动会,运动会 我旅行,我会像农村地区或 |
| 344 | different parts of our country and people will come up and talk. | 我们国家的不同地方 和人们会上来谈谈。 |
| 345 | Endurance sporting events, right? | 耐力运动,对不对? |
| 346 | Yeah, I ride bikes, things like that. | 是啊,我骑自行车,类似的事情。 |
| 347 | But I go out in these places and I talk to different people. | 但我去这些地方 和不同的人交谈。 |
| 348 | People come up to me and it's interesting because they don't expect me to be there. | 人们来找我,这很有趣 因为他们不指望我在那里。 |
| 349 | And I have to say the vast majority of people are really appreciative of my | 我不得不说,绝大多数人 真的很感谢我 |
| 350 | service and the service of our team. | 我们团队的服务 |
| 351 | But even when they're not, if you engage in a discussion with people and you're | 但是,即使他们不是, 如果你参与讨论 与人和你是 |
| 352 | open to hearing them and not just kind of telling them what you think, I actually | 并不只是告诉他们你的想法,我其实 |
| 353 | do think that people agree that integrity is a good thing. | 人们确实认为正直是件好事 |
| 354 | Do they believe that the crimes that do they do they believe the facts? | 他们相信那些犯罪 他们相信事实吗? |
| 355 | I mean, do they ask you about the cases you brought and do they believe you? | 我的意思是,他们问你 你带来的案件 他们相信你吗? |
| 356 | Well, it depends on who you're talking about. | 那要看你说的是谁了 |
| 357 | But often the people who are more skeptical know less about the facts. | 但往往持怀疑态度的人对事实了解较少. |
| 358 | And I think one of the things that's hard for me in this process is, you know, | 我认为在这个过程中我很难做到的一件事 就是,你知道, |
| 359 | I'm a facts guy, facts matter, really big on that. | 我是一个事实的家伙, 事实很重要, 真的很重要。 |
| 360 | And, you know, when you go in a courtroom, that's all that matters, right? | 而且,你知道,当你进入一个法庭, 这是最重要的,对不对? |
| 361 | And you know that you're going to get your turn to present the facts and then they can | 而且你知道,你会得到你的 轮到提出事实,然后他们可以 |
| 362 | present theirs and there's a process. | 展示他们,有一个过程。 |
| 363 | How we communicate with each other right now, it's very hard to do that. | 我们如何沟通 现在,这是非常困难的。 |
| 364 | It's very foreign to someone like me who was raised as a prosecutor. | 对于我这样的人来说,这是非常陌生的 作为检察官长大的。 |
| 365 | Do you're talking in court room, not on the courtroom steps? | 你在法庭里说话,不是在法庭台阶上吗? |
| 366 | And I think that's harder because a lot of the people I think who have resistance to | 我认为这是更难的 因为我认为很多人 谁有抵抗 |
| 367 | what we do, they're just not versed in the facts. | 我们所做的,他们只是不精通 事实。 |
| 368 | And, you know, not everybody wants to read 100 whatever page report. | 而且,你知道,不是每个人都想阅读 100无论页面报告。 |
| 369 | 我了解,我记得 I get it. | |
| 370 | But I think, you know, this goes to the DOJ going forward. | 但我认为,你知道,这是 司法部前进。 |
| 371 | My view is that going forward, I think we can't get away from the issues of integrity | 我的观点是,前进, 我认为我们不能远离 正直的问题 |
| 372 | and doing things the right way and facts and law. | 做正确的事情 事实和法律 |
| 373 | But I also think people like me who kind of were raised on that know that we've got to | 但我也觉得像我这样的人 那种长大的人 知道我们必须 |
| 374 | start listening more to people who know how to communicate and choose to communicate more | 开始听更多的人 谁知道如何沟通 选择更多的沟通 |
| 375 | in innovative ways because a lot of the people that I bump into and talk to, no one's tried | 创新的方式,因为很多的人 我碰巧和交谈, 没有人尝试 |
| 376 | to communicate with them. | 和他们沟通 |
| 377 | No one's tried to give them the facts in a way that's actually easy for them to digest. | 没有人试图以他们实际上容易消化的方式给他们事实. |
| 378 | And so, you know, very foreign to a courtroom guy like me, but I think it's a step that | 所以,你知道,非常陌生的人 像我这样的法庭, 但我认为这是一步 |
| 379 | we got to be talking about. | 我们得谈谈 |
| 380 | I mean, this was the challenge of the Mueller findings, right? | 我的意思是,这是挑战 穆勒发现,对不对? |
| 381 | You know, here it was. | 就是这里 |
| 382 | It kind of landed like a phone book and that was just volume one. | 它像电话簿一样落地了 那只是第一卷 |
| 383 | And no one explained it and no one defended it. | 没有人解释 也没有人为它辩护 |
| 384 | And Trump and his supporters were able to misrepresent it in a single news cycle. | 而特朗普及其支持者得以在一个单一的新闻周期中歪曲事实. |
| 385 | Was that on your mind as you did your work in these two cases? | 你在这两件案子里工作时 也是这么想的吗? |
| 386 | Honestly, no. | 说真的,没有。 |
| 387 | My job was to do my job the right way. | 我的工作是用正确的方式完成任务。 |
| 388 | And when it came time to write a report, to write a report that summarized accurately | 到了写一个报告的时候 写一个准确总结的报告 |
| 389 | what I did, I didn't really think about stuff like that. | 我所做的,我并没有真正想 类似的东西。 |
| 390 | And, you know, I understand your point about Robert Mueller, but I think Robert Mueller | 我理解你对罗伯特·米勒的看法 但我认为罗伯特·米勒 |
| 391 | is an American hero. | 是个美国英雄 |
| 392 | I mean, how he conducted his life serving our country in the military, servers throughout | 他如何在军队、服务器中为国家服务 |
| 393 | as the FBI, as a prosecutor. | 作为联邦调查局的检察官 |
| 394 | I mean, the story I like about Robert Mueller is this is a guy who did everything you could | 我的意思是,我喜欢关于罗伯特・穆勒的故事 是一个家伙 谁做了你能做的 |
| 395 | do as a lawyer. | 做一个律师。 |
| 396 | He's a partner at a big law firm making a million bucks or more. | 他是一家大律师事务所的合伙人 赚了一百万或更多 |
| 397 | And he wants to go back and be a line prosecutor. | 他想回去当检察官 |
| 398 | In San Francisco, right? | 在旧金山,对不对? |
| 399 | No, he came back to DC to be a homicide prosecutor. | 不 他回到华盛顿当凶杀案检察官 |
| 400 | I mean, it's such a badass thing to do. | 我的意思是,这是这么坏的事情。 |
| 401 | I mean, in my world, that's really a cool thing. | 我的意思是,在我的世界, 这是一个真的很酷的事情。 |
| 402 | And so, you know, maybe, as you say, like how that rolled out, he was working from a | 所以,你知道,也许,就像你说的, 像如何推广,他从一个 |
| 403 | different era. | 不同的时代。 |
| 404 | And that's why I say we got to get better at that. | 这就是为什么我说,我们必须得到更好的。 |
| 405 | But I don't want to lose the core of functioning with integrity and doing what's good for the | 但我不想失去核心 运作与正直 和做有利于 |
| 406 | country rather than what's good for you. | 国家而不是对你有好处 |
| 407 | Do you agree that we are covering in real time an assault on our elections, the upcoming | 你是否同意我们正在实时报道对选举的攻击,即将到来的 |
| 408 | ones? | 那些吗? |
| 409 | I'm very concerned of what's going to happen in the next election. | 我非常关心下次选举将会发生什么. |
| 410 | Absolutely. | 当然 |
| 411 | Do you see, again, in things that are covered and things are public facing conduct ahead | 你看,再次看到,在事物 覆盖和事物是公开面对 未来的行为 |
| 412 | of the midterms that you investigated in the January 6 case? | 你调查的1月6日的中期调查? |
| 413 | Well, I've been thinking about it more in terms of what needs to be done based on what | 嗯,我一直在考虑它 更多的方面需要做什么 基于什么 |
| 414 | we saw happen last time. | 我们上次见到的 |
| 415 | And, you know, it's a different situation now based on, you know, the people who perpetrated | 你知道,现在情况不一样了, 是基于,你知道,那些犯下 |
| 416 | January 6. | 1月6日 (英语). |
| 417 | They've probably learned from how they did that. | 他们可能已经学到了他们是如何做到的。 |
| 418 | My personal view is I think the state attorney generals have a tremendous role to play here. | 我个人的看法是,我认为州检察长可以发挥巨大作用。 |
| 419 | They can make sure the rule of law functions in their state. | 他们可以确保法治在其国家发挥作用。 |
| 420 | And I would also say that I think a thing that all of us can do is support election | 我还想说,我认为我们所有人都能做的是支持选举 |
| 421 | workers and election officials. | 工人和选举官员。 |
| 422 | The last time around, we saw that those people stood firm and they were, in many cases, the | 上次我们看见那些人站稳了 他们在许多情况下 |
| 423 | difference. | 差别。 |
| 424 | It's clear to me, anyways, that what I've seen publicly that those people are going | 不管怎么说,我很清楚 我公开看到那些人会去 |
| 425 | to be put under great pressure. | 将承受巨大的压力。 |
| 426 | And my experience, not only just the special counsel, but, you know, I was the chief of | 还有我的经验,不仅有特别的顾问, 而且,你知道,我曾经是 |
| 427 | the public integrity section at the Department of Justice for five years, had a number of | 5年来,司法部的公众廉政科一直设有多个部门。 |
| 428 | cases with election officials. | 涉及选举官员的案件。 |
| 429 | These are people also, they're not tooting their own horn. | 这些人也是,他们不是在自吹喇叭 |
| 430 | They're not self-promoters. | 他们不是自我促进者。 |
| 431 | They just care about our democracy. | 他们只关心我们的民主。 |
| 432 | We need to show them that we have their back. | 我们得让他们知道我们有他们的背 |
| 433 | I think those two things are central to getting ready for the elections that are coming up. | 我认为这两件事对于筹备即将到来的选举至关重要。 |
| 434 | What is your advice to state attorneys general? | 你对州检察长有什么建议? |
| 435 | I would be ready to litigate everything. | 我随时愿意起诉一切 |
| 436 | I would brainstorm. | 我会大惊小怪 |
| 437 | And I think they are. | 我认为他们是。 |
| 438 | I get that sense. | 我理解这一点。 |
| 439 | Every possible permutation and don't let reason be a limitation. | 每一个可能的演化,不要让理性成为限制. |
| 440 | Imagine everything that could possibly be tried. | 想象一下所有可能尝试的东西 |
| 441 | That Trump will do. | 川普会的 |
| 442 | Yeah. | 对 |
| 443 | And I also think it's important for them to be proactive and, you know, initiate litigation | 我还认为他们必须主动主动 并提起诉讼 |
| 444 | where it's appropriate and where it would make sense to if you have a sense | 哪里合适 哪里有道理 如果你有道理 |
| 445 | or reason to believe that something's going to be done to interfere with people's right | 或有理由相信某些事情会 干扰人们的权利 |
| 446 | to vote and participate in democracy. | 投票和参与民主。 |
| 447 | The strength of the evidence that you and your investigators developed | 你和你的调查员 所开发的证据的力量 |
| 448 | is at least as detailed in the report that was released. | 报告至少详述了这一点。 |
| 449 | It seems to be that you were able to develop, and I'll say this as a non-lawyer, | 看来你已经可以发展了 作为一名非律师 |
| 450 | sort of the 360 evidence that you understood the state of mind. | 一种360个证据 你理解精神状态。 |
| 451 | You had evidence that Trump knew he was lying. | 你有证据证明特朗普知道他在撒谎 |
| 452 | There were all sorts of interactions where he said to people, | 他对人们说,有各种各样的互动 |
| 453 | well, that national security issue will be dealt with by Joe Biden because I lost. | 乔·拜登会处理国家安全问题 因为我输了 |
| 454 | He said to another aide, quote, I can't believe I lost to that guy. | 他对另一位助手说,我不敢相信我输给了那个家伙。 |
| 455 | So you were able to establish, and I think the congressional committee established some | 因此,你能够建立, 我认为国会委员会建立了一些 |
| 456 | of this as well, people that he acknowledged losing to. | 他所承认所失去的人, |
| 457 | How much of the ability to hold people accountable is based on being able to | 追究人们责任的能力有多少取决于能否 |
| 458 | see inside meetings and have witnesses that cooperate? | 看到内部会议 有证人配合吗? |
| 459 | And I guess I'm getting back to the pardon conversation we just have. | 我想我会回到我们刚才的赦免谈话 |
| 460 | I mean, how much do you think Trump has learned in terms of how to evade | 我的意思是,你认为特朗普在如何逃避方面学到了多少 |
| 461 | an indictment like the one you brought? | 就像你带来的那份起诉书? |
| 462 | Yeah, I think the one thing to start on this sort of topic is we did this case | 是的,我认为从这个话题开始的一件事 就是我们做了这个案子 |
| 463 | the way I've done cases throughout my career, same investigative techniques, | 我整个职业生涯都以同样的调查手法办案 |
| 464 | same use of the tools that a federal prosecutor has. | 和联邦检察官一样使用的工具 |
| 465 | And our proof was the same sort of proof you have in all sorts of cases, | 我们的证据跟你在各种案件中的证据一样 |
| 466 | not just political corruption cases, but all sorts of cases I've done in my career. | 不仅政治腐败案件, 和各种案件 我做了在我的职业生涯。 |
| 467 | You prove what happened. | 你证明发生了什么。 |
| 468 | You prove the intent of the person. | 你证明这个人的意图 |
| 469 | And you also are thoughtful about what's the defense going to be in. | 而且你还深思熟虑 辩方会介入什么 |
| 470 | Can we disprove that? | 我们可以反驳吗? |
| 471 | Because if you can't, then you can't prove a case beyond a reasonable doubt. | 因为如果你不能,那么你无法证明一个案件 超越合理的怀疑。 |
| 472 | And we did that. | 我们做到了。 |
| 473 | We did that in this case. | 这件事情我们做到了 |
| 474 | It wasn't unique in terms of how we did it. | 从我们是如何做到的来看,这不是独一无二的。 |
| 475 | It was the same sort of processes you'd use in any case. | 不管是哪种过程 都一样 |
| 476 | And around speech, one of the things that the right used to say before Trump came back | 在演讲中 右派在特朗普回来之前 |
| 477 | into office was to champion First Amendment protected speech. | 成为第一修正案的保护演讲的冠军 |
| 478 | One of the things that I understood better when I read this again to prepare to talk | 我读到这个 准备说话的时候 我更明白一件事 |
| 479 | to you was that speech in furtherance of crimes is not protected. | 对于你来说 推进犯罪的言论是不受保护的 |
| 480 | How much do you think people should just be monitoring and tracking the things people | 你认为人们应该 仅仅在监控和追踪的东西 |
| 481 | are saying out loud in terms of stealing the midterms? | 在偷中期报告方面有大声的说吗? |
| 482 | Yeah, and that's maybe a good point for your viewers is there is rock-solid Supreme Court | 是啊,这也许是一个好点 你的观众是 有摇滚的最高法院 |
| 483 | precedent that you cannot just use speech to commit a crime, fraud particularly. | 特别是欺诈 |
| 484 | There's a specific case on it. | 上面有个具体的案子 |
| 485 | And so obviously, people have a First Amendment right. | 显然,人们有第一修正案的权利。 |
| 486 | And I think we made clear in our indictment that we respect First Amendment rights. | 我认为我们在起诉书中明确表示 我们尊重第一修正案的权利 |
| 487 | It's certainly important to me that we not charge a case that would, in essence, | 这对我来说当然很重要,我们不指控 一个案件,本质上, |
| 488 | be violating someone right. | 侵犯别人的权利。 |
| 489 | But that doesn't mean that you can't commit crimes through words. | 但这并不意味着你不能通过文字犯罪. |
| 490 | Happens all the time. | 总是这样 |
| 491 | When a Ponzi scheme person is bilking someone out of their life savings, | 当庞氏骗局的人 抽取某人的 毕生积蓄, |
| 492 | they're doing it with words. | 他们用文字来做 |
| 493 | That's how that's done. | 师便打曰. |
| 494 | All sorts of financial crimes, all sorts of corruption crimes. | 各种金融犯罪,各种腐败犯罪. |
| 495 | A bribe is usually communicated in words. | 贿赂通常用文字传达. |
| 496 | That happens all the time. | 这种事经常发生 |
| 497 | And in a lot of ways, this case was no different. | 而在许多方面,这个案子并没有不同. |
| 498 | I was also reminded that after the Supreme Court grants Donald Trump immunity, | 我还被提醒,最高法院授予唐纳德·特朗普豁免权后, |
| 499 | you file a superseding indictment. | 你提出控告 |
| 500 | You're still ready to bring the case to trial, right? | 你仍然准备将案件提交审判,对吧? |
| 501 | Yeah, correct. | 没错 |
| 502 | Explain how you had to adjust and what that adjustment was. | 解释你如何调整 以及调整是什么 |
| 503 | Sure. | 当然 |
| 504 | And we set this forth in our report. | 我们在报告中阐述了这一点。 |
| 505 | We did what good prosecutors do and what you're supposed to do. | 我们做了好检察官该做的事 |
| 506 | We received a decision from the court. | 我们收到了法庭的裁决 |
| 507 | It wasn't the decision we wanted. | 这不是我们想要的决定。 |
| 508 | We didn't agree with the reasoning of it. | 我们不同意其推理. |
| 509 | But in a society where you believe in the rule of law, | 但在你相信法治的社会中 |
| 510 | you follow the court's decisions. | 你遵循法庭的裁决 |
| 511 | And so we analyzed the decision and we looked at what sort of evidence | 于是我们分析了这个决定 研究了什么样的证据 |
| 512 | we could no longer use and what sort of evidence we could use. | 我们不能再使用什么证据了 |
| 513 | And we set this forth in filings because in this particular case, | 我们把这些都写在档案里 因为在这个特殊的情况下 |
| 514 | a lot of the evidence was him in his role as a candidate. | 很多证据是他作为候选人的身份 |
| 515 | We felt we could go forward and we briefed this issue for the court. | 我们认为我们可以继续前进,我们向法庭通报了这个问题。 |
| 516 | And obviously, we never got to a conclusion where we could | 显然,我们从来没有得出一个结论 我们能 |
| 517 | litigate the ultimate conclusion of that. | 诉讼最终结论。 |
| 518 | But we would not have gone forward with the case unless I still felt | 但是除非我还觉得 |
| 519 | we could prove it beyond a reasonable doubt, just like we wouldn't have | 我们可以证明它没有合理怀疑, 就像我们不会有 |
| 520 | gone forward with the case in the first place if we couldn't. | 如果我们做不到的话 一开始就继续办这个案子 |
| 521 | And I guess one point I would want to emphasize there is I think a | 我想我想强调一点 我认为 |
| 522 | difference between the work we did and what you're seeing today is | 我们的工作与你今天所看到的区别 |
| 523 | in our work, there was no predetermined outcome. | 在我们的工作中,没有预先确定的结果。 |
| 524 | When I took this job, I was perfectly happy to bring this case if the | 当我接受这份工作时 我很高兴能提出这个案子 |
| 525 | facts and law warranted it or not. | 事实和法律是否有理由这样做。 |
| 526 | And I've done that throughout my career and it hasn't mattered what | 我在整个职业生涯中都这么做了 但不管是什么 |
| 527 | person's political party was to do that. | 他的政党就是这么做的 |
| 528 | That's how we went about our work. | 这就是我们的工作方式 |
| 529 | Completely apolitical politics did not play a role. | 完全非政治政治没有发挥作用。 |
| 530 | Were you kind of hoping that the criminality wasn't as brazen as what | 你是否希望犯罪没有那么赤裸裸 |
| 531 | you developed in uncovering? | 你发现后发展了? |
| 532 | I don't think good prosecutors hope you follow the facts and the law. | 我不认为好检察官希望你遵循事实和法律。 |
| 533 | And one of the good principles that real prosecutors always follow is | 真正的检察官总是遵循的好原则之一是 |
| 534 | the facts matter and you don't not go down an avenue because, oh, maybe | 事实很重要,你不会走过一条路 因为,哦,也许 |
| 535 | some facts will come out that will hurt my case. | 有些事实会影响我的案子 |
| 536 | You go and look at all the facts you possibly can, as searching as you | 你去看看所有你可能可以发现的事实 像你一样寻找 |
| 537 | possibly can, because you want to get it right. | 可能可以,因为你想得到它的权利。 |
| 538 | That contrasts to what we're seeing today where there is a predetermined | 这和我们今天所看到的有预设的 |
| 539 | outcome, process doesn't matter, and we just have to find a way to get to | 结果,过程并不重要, 我们只需要找到一个方法去 |
| 540 | that outcome. | 最终结果 |
| 541 | And if there's facts that don't fit that outcome, we don't recognize them. | 如果有事实不符合这个结果,我们不承认. |
| 542 | If there's facts that make it not a crime, we just pretend those don't | 如果有事实可以证明它不是犯罪 我们就假装没有 |
| 543 | exist. | 已存在。 |
| 544 | I mean, a judge basically said that in the Kilmar Arrego-Garcia case, | 我的意思是,一个法官 基本上说 在基尔玛阿雷戈 -加西亚案中, |
| 545 | said that he found that this was an instance where basically criminality | 他说,他发现,这是一个基本上犯罪的例子。 |
| 546 | was being reverse engineered all the way up to Todd Blanch. | 一直被反向设计到托德布兰奇 |
| 547 | If a judge has found that, what do you think they're capable of with | 如果法官发现,你认为他们有什么能力 |
| 548 | two more years? | 还要两年? |
| 549 | Well, as I said earlier, from my perspective, I've seen a number of | 正如我之前所说 从我的观点来看 我见过很多 |
| 550 | cases, James Comey, Letitia James, Jerome Powell, I mean, right? | 詹姆斯·科米、莱蒂蒂亚·詹姆斯、杰罗姆 鲍威尔,我的意思是,对不对? |
| 551 | There's not criminality here. | 这里没有犯罪 |
| 552 | I mean, seashells. | 我是说 海贝壳 |
| 553 | I mean, so the only reasonable explanation is the president has it out | 我的意思是,所以唯一合理的解释 是总统有它出来 |
| 554 | for these people, and he has people who, former personal lawyers, who are | 他有前私人律师 |
| 555 | going to do what he says regardless of the factual law. | 无论事实法律如何 都要照他说的去做 |
| 556 | I mean, again, just to juxtapose it, I didn't have people on my team | 我的意思是,再次,只是 并列起来,我没有人在我的团队 |
| 557 | resigning because they refused to go along with a scheme to go after | 辞职是因为他们拒绝接受一个计划 |
| 558 | somebody. | 有人吗? |
| 559 | That was not what happened. | 事情不是这样的 |
| 560 | You see that in all of these cases. | 在所有这些情况下你都看到了。 |
| 561 | And just, again, imagine if you would like, I was appointed from outside | 再想想,如果你愿意的话,我是从外面任命的 |
| 562 | the government, no political allegiance to anybody, and they were | 政府,没有政治效忠任何人, 他们是 |
| 563 | comfortable with Jack wherever you think the facts and law dictate. | 无论你认为事实和法律如何 都对杰克很满意 |
| 564 | That's what we'll do. | 这就是我们要做的。 |
| 565 | And that's what will happen. | 然则将至矣. |
| 566 | Can you imagine that happening now? | 你能想象现在会发生吗? |
| 567 | If there was an allegation of corruption in this administration, them | 如果有人指控政府存在腐败, |
| 568 | saying, let's appoint an outside independent person to make a call on | 说,让我们任命一个外部独立人士 呼唤 |
| 569 | this, I think we know it would never happen. | 这,我想我们知道 这永远不会发生。 |
| 570 | And I think that's a real easy way to differentiate following the | 我认为这是个非常容易的区分方法 |
| 571 | process, following the facts, having independence. | 程序,遵循事实,具有独立性。 |
| 572 | If you were, if you took the name of our country off it and you were just | 如果你是,如果你取下我们国家的名字 而你只是 |
| 573 | examining the state of the rule of law in America, is it dead? | 检查美国的法治状况, 它死了吗? |
| 574 | I don't think so at all. | 终不思议. |
| 575 | And for the reasons I said earlier, there are legions of career | 之前我说过 有很多职业 |
| 576 | prosecutors, people just like me, you just don't know their name, who are, | 检察官 像我这样的人 你只是不知道他们的名字 |
| 577 | want to do the right thing. | 想做对的事 |
| 578 | They're in the Justice Department. | 他们在司法部 |
| 579 | They want to serve. | 他们想要服务。 |
| 580 | We have a lot of challenges in front of us, and the rehabilitation of the | 我们面临许多挑战,重建 |
| 581 | department is not going to be any mean feat. | 部门不会是任何卑鄙的功绩。 |
| 582 | Recovering character is a lot harder than gaining it in the first place. | 恢复性格在一开始比获得性格要困难得多. |
| 583 | But I think we're totally capable of doing that. | 但我认为我们完全有能力做到这一点。 |
| 584 | I'm completely optimistic. | 我完全乐观。 |
| 585 | We've talked about the dedicated public servants in the department and the | 我们谈了部门内有献身精神的公务员 |
| 586 | FBI that worked on your cases. | 调查你案子的FBI |
| 587 | One of them you can't talk about. | 其中一个你不能谈 |
| 588 | And that's all of these. | 这就是这一切。 |
| 589 | And these are some of the ones that Trump has raged against most | 这些是特朗普对大部分的愤怒 |
| 590 | ferociously. | 发菩提心. |
| 591 | And that is the prosecutors and agents involved in the documents case. | 这就是参与文件案件的检察官和代理人。 |
| 592 | Just explain why you can't talk about that. | 解释一下为什么你不能谈这个 |
| 593 | There's an order from the judge in Florida, Judge Cannon, that that | 佛罗里达州法官坎农法官下令 |
| 594 | And I don't want to do anything that could be misconstrued as me | 我不想做任何可能误解为我的事 |
| 595 | not following a court order. | 不服从法院的命令。 |
| 596 | I'm a lawyer who follows court orders. | 我是听从法庭命令的律师 |
| 597 | And so I just don't want to do anything that would be remotely construed as | 所以我就是不想做任何 被远程理解为 |
| 598 | not complying with her order. | 没有遵守她的命令。 |
| 599 | Let me just ask the things that you've said publicly about standing by | 让我问问你公开说过的 站在旁边的话 |
| 600 | the facts that you developed and standing by what you've put in your | 你所研究的事实 以及你所展示的事实 |
| 601 | reports. | 报告。 |
| 602 | You stand by volume two? | 你准备好第二卷了吗? |
| 603 | Absolutely. | 当然 |
| 604 | And the men and women who worked on those cases have been targeted with | 而从事这些案件工作的男女则成为目标 |
| 605 | some of the most vicious retribution and political attacks. | 一些最恶毒的报复和政治攻击。 |
| 606 | Are they political actors? | 他们是政治演员吗? |
| 607 | Absolutely not. | 绝对不是。 |
| 608 | For the ones that are, I mean, have any of them survived the purge at the | 对于那些,我的意思是, 他们中的任何一个幸存下来 在清洗在 |
| 609 | Bureau and the Department of Justice? | 办公室和司法部? |
| 610 | I don't think that's really for me to say. | 我不认为这真的 对我来说。 |
| 611 | I think the I'm focused on the people I can help. | 我觉得我专注于我能帮助的人 |
| 612 | And that's what I've been trying to do. | 亦复如是. |
| 613 | All right. | 好吧,我们走。 |
| 614 | We don't want to jeopardize any of those individuals. | 我们不想危害这些人 |
| 615 | And we don't want to put you in a bad spot with Judge Aileen Cannon. | 我们不想让你和艾琳·坎农法官在一起 |
| 616 | You think there's any chance she ends up on the Supreme Court? | 你觉得她有可能上最高法院吗? |
| 617 | I have no views on that whatsoever. | 我对此没有任何看法。 |
| 618 | We'll watch that with bated breath. | 我们用呼吸来观察 |
| 619 | I want to share some reporting from my friend Glenn Thrush at the New York | 我想在纽约分享我的朋友格伦·特鲁什的报告 |
| 620 | Times, who's covered some of the folks that you've talked about and sort of | 泰晤士报,谁报道了一些人 你谈论过和排序 |
| 621 | come back to what's on the other side. | 复至彼处. |
| 622 | Cash Patel summarily fired Chris Meyer and another top agent in the | 卡什·帕特尔当场解雇了克里斯·迈耶和另外一名高级探员 |
| 623 | Washington, D.C. field office who have been targeted by the right, | 华盛顿哥伦比亚特区外地办事处 被右派攻击 |
| 624 | (原始内容存档于2018-03-27). Walter Giordina. | |
| 625 | Mr. Patel did so after being told that the terminations were unlawful and that | 帕特尔先生在被告知终止合同是非法的,而且 |
| 626 | pushing out Mr. Giordina, who was caring for his dying wife, something you | 推出乔迪纳先生, 他正在照顾他死去的妻子,你的东西 |
| 627 | talked about, would be inexcusably cruel, according to a lawsuit filed by three FBI | 根据三个FBI提起的诉讼 可以说是残忍的 |
| 628 | 主管也被Cash Patel解雇. | |
| 629 | Quote, we were always told that we would be taken care of and there would not be | 引用,我们一直被告知 我们会得到照顾,没有 |
| 630 | any retaliation for our assigned work. | 对我们的工作有任何报复 |
| 631 | Mr. Giordina, 48, told his supervisors the day he was fired, the circle of | 48岁的Giordina先生在被解雇的那天 告诉他的主管们 |
| 632 | trust had been broken. | 信任已经被打破。 |
| 633 | I want to ask you about this concept of a circle of trust, because | 我想问你一个信任圈的概念,因为 |
| 634 | we talked about with the pardons and the slush fund, Trump seems to be erecting a | 特朗普似乎在竖立一个 |
| 635 | gamble. | 赌博 |
| 636 | It is public facing a circle of trust with people who committed crimes | 面对罪犯的信任圈 |
| 637 | for which they were convicted by juries of their peers, not just pardoning them | 他们被同行的陪审团定罪 不仅仅是赦免他们 |
| 638 | but giving them money. | 但给他们钱。 |
| 639 | That circle of trust doesn't do anything for the public, for the public safety, | 信任的圈子对公众和公共安全都没有用 |
| 640 | for U.S. national security. | 为了美国国家安全 |
| 641 | How do you begin to put back together a circle of trust between public servants | 如何恢复公务员之间的信任 |
| 642 | who protected the country from threats? | 谁保护国家免受威胁? |
| 643 | Yeah, I think for me the biggest thing we can do, and it's challenging, is to get | 是啊,我想对我来说最大的事情 我们可以做, 这是挑战性,是获得 |
| 644 | the facts out in ways that people can digest them. | 以人们能消化的方式 揭示事实 |
| 645 | I think if you have a question of is a rioter who assaulted a police officer | 我想如果你有问题的话 是个暴动分子袭击了警察 |
| 646 | on January 6th a patriot or is Harry Dunn a patriot, we win that argument every | 1月6日是爱国者 还是哈利邓恩是爱国者 我们赢得了这场争斗 |
| 647 | time if people have the facts. | 如果人们有事实的话 是时候了 |
| 648 | And I think it's hard and, you know, as a prosecutor who worked in a courtroom and | 我觉得这很困难 作为一名在法庭工作的检察官 |
| 649 | didn't really work in the media and didn't, you know, want to give a speech | 并没有真正在媒体工作 没有,你知道,想发表演讲 |
| 650 | on the courthouse steps, I think we've now learned that you got to be able to | 在法院的阶梯上,我想我们已经知道 你必须能够 |
| 651 | get people to understand the facts. | 让人们了解事实 |
| 652 | We've got a great product in the work that we did as a special counsel, the work | 作为一名特别顾问,我们的工作有了一个伟大的成果, |
| 653 | the Justice Department does every day, but the people who do it who are really | 司法部每天都有 但做这件事的人 |
| 654 | the reason you can trust it, they don't promote themselves and so we need to get | 你信任它的原因, 他们不宣传自己 所以我们需要得到 |
| 655 | their stories out there. | 他们的故事在那里。 |
| 656 | I think if that happens, the sort of trust in government, which is pretty hard to earn, | 我认为,如果发生这种情况, 那种信任政府, 这是相当难以挣取, |
| 657 | you can do that. | 你可以做到这一点。 |
| 658 | My experience as a trial lawyer, it's my experience in life when I interact with | 我作为一名审判律师的经验, 是我的人生经历,当我与 |
| 659 | people in the world and part of the reason I frankly want to talk to you today is to | 今天我坦白地想和你们谈谈的原因之一是 |
| 660 | talk about these people because they're good people and if you sat down with them | 说这些人是因为他们是好人 如果你和他们坐下来 |
| 661 | for a coffee or a beer or a meal, you would like them and you would trust them and you | 喝杯咖啡、啤酒、吃饭,你会喜欢的,你信任他们和你 |
| 662 | would see the things that are being said about them are lies. | 将看到他们所说的话是谎言。 |
| 663 | And in my experience, which is dated, none of them are particularly political. | 以我的经验来看,他们中没有一个是特别的政治性的。 |
| 664 | I don't know the politics of any of these people. | 我不知道这些人的政治 |
| 665 | That's not something we talk about in the Justice Department. | 我们不是在司法部谈的 |
| 666 | What does it do to the ability to imagine something on the other side that isn't a | 它对想象另一边的东西的能力有什么作用? |
| 667 | reaction to what's happening now? | 对现在发生的事情的反应? |
| 668 | I mean, everyone from all the reporting that we have access to is only doing the kind | 我是说,我们所有的报告 都只是做那种 |
| 669 | of work you're talking about if they've avoid being asked to do something that | 你所说的工作 如果他们没有被要求做一些事情 |
| 670 | violates their oath or is unethical or is part of the retribution cases or is predicated | * 违反誓言或不道德,或属于报复案件的一部分,或被确定为有罪; |
| 671 | on Trump's conspiracies as we covered at the top of the hour, massive deployment of | 在特朗普的阴谋中,我们 覆盖在最高峰, 大规模部署 |
| 672 | intelligence agents to go look at data in Georgia based on a lie. | 情报人员要根据谎言 查看格鲁吉亚的数据 |
| 673 | What happens on the other side to people that were involved in that misdirection of | 在另一边,那些参与错误指挥的人会发生什么? |
| 674 | resources? | 资源? |
| 675 | Well, you know, one thing I don't like is this idea that everybody who did things we | 嗯,你知道,有件事我不喜欢 这个想法,每个人都谁做了我们 |
| 676 | don't like, they're guilty of crimes too and we're going to prosecute them. | 不喜欢,他们也有罪 我们要起诉他们。 |
| 677 | It should be the facts and the law and you should look at not let's find this person | 应该是事实和法律,你应该看看 不要让我们找到这个人 |
| 678 | and let's find if they let's target them and see if we can find a crime. | 让我们看看他们是否瞄准他们 看看我们是否能找到犯罪 |
| 679 | That's what's happening now. | 即今所现. |
| 680 | I think it's really important that whoever leads the Justice Department after this rejects | 我认为重要的是,谁领导司法部 之后,拒绝 |
| 681 | that sort of thinking. | 那种思维。 |
| 682 | That doesn't mean the people who have committed crimes should get a free pass. | 这并不意味着那些犯罪的人应该获得免费通行证. |
| 683 | And it's going to be difficult. | 而将难. |
| 684 | I actually think the investigation of these things isn't hard. | 我觉得调查这些事情并不难 |
| 685 | What's hard is getting people to understand it's been done in an objective way, explaining | 很难让人们明白 这是客观的,解释 |
| 686 | in a way that people can digest that things are done following the facts and law and don't | 让人们能够消化 事情是按事实和法律进行的 |
| 687 | involve politics. | 涉及政治。 |
| 688 | That's a challenge. | 这是一个挑战。 |
| 689 | Doing the actual work, there's lots of people out there who've spent their careers like | 做真正的工作, 有很多人在那里 谁已经度过了自己的职业生涯 像 |
| 690 | I have who are capable of doing that work. | 我有谁有能力做这项工作。 |
| 691 | Not just cases in the political realm, but particularly cases also affecting our national | 不仅政治领域的案例,而且特别影响到我们国家的案例 |
| 692 | security. | 警卫。 |
| 693 | I spent a lot of time worrying about that when I see some of the people have been fired. | 我花了很多时间来担心 当我看到一些人被解雇了。 |
| 694 | When you feel optimistic about our ability to come through and about the caliber of the | 当你感到乐观 我们的能力通过 和口径 |
| 695 | people who are inside the department, what do you think and do you feel as optimistic | 部门里的人,你怎么想,你觉得乐观吗? |
| 696 | about a country that would reelect someone for whom the facts showed he'd committed | 这个国家会重新选举一个 事实表明他已经犯罪的人 |
| 697 | multiple felonies? | 多重重罪吗? |
| 698 | My view, Nicole, is our country's been a lot of things at a lot of different times. | 我的看法是,妮可 我们的国家在很多不同的时代 都有很多事情 |
| 699 | And what generally happens is when something really bad happens, watergate, for example, | 通常发生的事情是 水门,比如, |
| 700 | we respond and we get better as a result. | 我们的反应,我们得到更好的结果。 |
| 701 | I'm not saying the Justice Department has been perfect every day, but the people I worked | 我不是说司法部每天都很完美 但我工作的人 |
| 702 | with, I saw people trying to move things in the right direction. | 我看见有人想把事情朝正确的方向发展 |
| 703 | And I think it would be foolish to say we're not facing challenges right now. | 我认为说我们现在没有面临挑战是愚蠢的。 |
| 704 | But when you face a challenge like we are today, you have a choice about the attitude | 但是当你面对今天这样的挑战 你对态度有选择余地 |
| 705 | you take towards it. | 你向着它。 |
| 706 | Anyone can put anything on you, but you have a choice about the attitude you take. | 任何人都可以把任何东西在你身上, 但你有选择 你的态度。 |
| 707 | For me, and I think a lot of the people that I've worked with, our view is I want to behave | 对我来说,我想很多我工作过的人, 我们的观点是,我想行为 |
| 708 | now in a way that my kids will be proud. | 现在,在一种方式 我的孩子会骄傲。 |
| 709 | I want to act in a way that when I'm retired, I look back on this time and say I did things | 我想用这样的方式,当我退休, 我回头看这一次,说我做了一些事情 |
| 710 | right. | 对 |
| 711 | I think a lot of people relate to that. | 我想很多人都和这件事有关 |
| 712 | And I think it's understandable. | 我觉得这是可以理解的。 |
| 713 | And I think if we start aligning actions with our beliefs, it's a huge, huge step. | 我认为如果我们开始把行动与我们的信仰结合起来, 这是一个巨大的,巨大的步骤。 |
| 714 | I think one of the things I've seen, which is the sort of journey I've been on, is, you | 我觉得我见过的一件事, 那种旅程,我一直在,是,你 |
| 715 | know, with me being targeted by the president, you get to find out who's who, right? | 你知道,我被总统盯上了, 你就可以找出谁是谁,对不对? |
| 716 | You get to find out who runs towards the fire, who kind of backs away. | 你可以找出谁向着火跑去 是谁向后退 |
| 717 | It's difficult in the moment, but I think for the future, that's going to be really | 现在很困难,但我想未来, 这将是真的 |
| 718 | helpful to know. | 帮助知道。 |
| 719 | Are you afraid to be speaking out? | 你害怕说出来吗? |
| 720 | No, not at all. | 不,一点也不。 |
| 721 | I am not going to be intimidated. | 我不会被恐吓的 |
| 722 | And there's no way in the world if the thought was to go after me so that I wouldn't speak | 世界上没有办法,如果想 追杀我,这样我就不会说话 |
| 723 | up about the corruption that's happening or speak up to defend these agents and prosecutors, | 关于正在发生的腐败 或大声疾呼为这些代理人和检察官辩护, |
| 724 | that is a grave miscalculation. | 这是一个严重的错误计算。 |
| 725 | There is no way I'm going to be intimidated. | 我绝对不会被恐吓的 |
| 726 | Would it help the Bureau and the Department of Justice if more of the leaders above the | 如果有更多的领导者能够帮助主席团和司法部, |
| 727 | command above you spoke out with the same messages, Merrick Garland and Lisa Monaco? | 上面的指挥员你用同样的信息说话, 梅里克・加兰和丽莎・摩纳哥? |
| 728 | I'm not going to forecast what other people can do or tell other people how they should | 我不会预测别人能做什么 也不会告诉别人他们应该怎么做 |
| 729 | handle a particular situation. | 处理特定情况。 |
| 730 | Everyone's got to make their own particular choice. | 每个人都得做出自己的选择 |
| 731 | My strong view is rather than sort of critiquing people who haven't done what we might like | 我强烈的看法是 宁可贬低那些没做我们可能喜欢的事的人 |
| 732 | them to do and good, high integrity people who serve the public, spend their careers | 他们做和好,高正直的人 服务公众,花他们的职业生涯 |
| 733 | in public service, let's focus on when we see somebody doing a good thing, we raise | 在公共服务中,让我们专注于 当我们看到有人做一件好事,我们提高 |
| 734 | them up. | 他们起来。 |
| 735 | I think that's a more productive way to face the challenge we're facing right now. | 我认为这是一个更有成效的方法来面对我们现在面临的挑战. |
| 736 | I want to ask you about some of your earlier work at DOJ. | 我想问你以前在司法部的一些工作 |
| 737 | You worked in public integrity, which somewhere someone has all of their office supplies, | 你在公众廉政中工作, 在那里有人拥有他们的办公室用品, |
| 738 | right? | 对吧? |
| 739 | And this week we reported that Donald Trump raked in $2 billion since returning to the | 这周我们报道说唐纳德·特朗普 回到美国后投入了20亿美元 |
| 740 | White House. | 白宫. |
| 741 | It's such a perversion of everything that's come before it. | 于前所现一切如来之所染染染. |
| 742 | What do you make or what do you think when you think about the gutting of all of the | 当你想到这些东西的沟壑时,你会做什么? |
| 743 | prosecutors that used to investigate and prosecute those crimes? | 曾经调查和起诉这些罪行的检察官? |
| 744 | Yeah, I'm saddened by it because when I was at public integrity when I was the chief of | 是啊,我很难过,因为当我在公共诚信 当我是首席 |
| 745 | the section, and this was a section that was created in the wake of Watergate as one of | 这是在水门之后创建的 |
| 746 | the reforms after Watergate to deal with corruption in the government, we did good work. | 在"水门"之后的改革 处理政府的腐败, 我们做了很好的工作。 |
| 747 | We did important work. | 我们做了重要的工作。 |
| 748 | We did nonpartisan work. | 我们做了无党派的工作。 |
| 749 | And seeing that section gutted saddens me. | 看见那个部门让我伤心欲绝 |
| 750 | But I have to say, at the same time, that started because the attorneys in that section | 但我不得不说,同时,这是开始 因为那个部分的律师 |
| 751 | stood up. | 站起来 |
| 752 | When the Adams case in New York, they forced the dismissal of a completely legitimate case | 当亚当斯案在纽约时 他们强迫驳回一个完全合法的案件 |
| 753 | that the prosecutors in the Southern District of New York brought, and they tried to force | 纽约南区的检察官带来, 他们试图强迫 |
| 754 | public integrity to sort of lend their credibility to the dismissal. | 公众的诚信 在某种程度上,他们的信誉 解雇。 |
| 755 | That's what I'm talking about, about people of integrity. | 所谓正觉者. |
| 756 | You know, the Southern District prosecutors, I don't know them. | 我不认识南区检察官 |
| 757 | But they left, and they're not in the department anymore. | 但是他们离开了,他们已经不在部门了. |
| 758 | Right, but my point is there's people like that throughout the department, | 是的,但我想说的是 整个部门都有这样的人 |
| 759 | and there's people who are going to continue to stand up. | 有人会继续站起来 |
| 760 | I have a huge allegiance to them, and I have a huge affection for them. | 我对他们非常忠诚,我对他们非常热爱。 |
| 761 | And I know they're out there, and I just want to make sure they all hear us, | 我知道他们在那里, 我只是想确保他们都听到我们, |
| 762 | because this is going to go on for a while. | 因为这会持续一段时间 |
| 763 | The path to victory here is not a short one. | 这里的胜利之路并不短暂. |
| 764 | And I think the people in place who are doing their jobs, the people who stood up, | 我认为在现场的人 做他们的工作, 谁站起来, |
| 765 | we should celebrate them, just like we're celebrating the 4th of July. | 我们应该庆祝它们 就像我们在庆祝七月四日 |
| 766 | These are the people who make this country great, in my view. | 我认为,这些人使这个国家变得伟大。 |
| 767 | Is this the beginning of speaking out on the rehab more regularly, more frequently? | 这是否是开始更经常、更频繁地在戒毒所发表言论? |
| 768 | Will you come back? | 你会回来吗? |
| 769 | You know, this is new for me, Nicole. | 你知道,这对我来说是新的,妮可。 |
| 770 | We'll see. | 等着瞧吧 |
| 771 | You know, I'm trying, you know, I was a prosecutor for 30 years, | 你知道,我试图,你知道, 我是一个检察官30年, |
| 772 | and I'm in a different world now. | 我现在在另一个世界 |
| 773 | I started a law firm, as I think you know, with our friend, Tim Haffey. | 我和我们的朋友蒂姆·哈菲开了一家律师事务所 |
| 774 | And I want to do whatever I can to be helpful right now. | 我现在想尽我所能帮忙 |
| 775 | And I want to figure out what that is. | 我想知道这是什么。 |
| 776 | I don't have an interest in being on TV to talk just so I can be on TV to talk. | 我对上电视说话没兴趣 只是让我上电视说话 |
| 777 | If there's a way that I feel like I can be helpful, I'm going to do it. | 若有法我觉能助我修行. |
| 778 | And that's going to guide me. | 那会指引我 |
| 779 | We really appreciate you deciding to talk to us here today. | 我们非常感谢你今天决定和我们谈谈 |
| 780 | We've covered you for a long time. | 我们给你盖了很久了 |
| 781 | We admire what looks like sort of standing strong in the face of withering attacks | 我们钦佩那些在死灰复燃的攻击中 站得稳的样子 |
| 782 | from the most powerful person in the country and our politics. | 从国家最强的人 和我们的政治。 |
| 783 | And it's really a treat to get to talk to you. | 和你谈谈真的很好玩 |
| 784 | Thank you. | 谢谢 |
| 785 | Well, I really appreciate you having me. | 我很感激你邀请我 |
| 786 | Thanks so much. | 非常感谢 |
| 787 | Thank you for being here. | 谢谢你能来 |
| 788 | If we ever get anything wrong, though, you know, send up a flare. | 如果我们有任何错误, 但是,你知道,发送信号弹。 |
| 789 | Let us know. | 让我们知道。 |
| 790 | Sounds good. | 听起来不错 |
| 791 | Thank you so much for being here. | 谢谢你能来 |
该视频共有字幕 791 条。解锁更多字幕为会员功能，请移动到 价格