经济学人专访瑞典总理：北约能否依靠川普 | 2026.9.3
字幕摘录
| 时间 | 英文 | 中文 |
|---|---|---|
| 0:01 | Joining NATO is a bet on America, among other things. | 加入北约是对美国的赌注,除其他外。 |
| 0:05 | It's a bet on the strong transatlantic link. | 这是对强大的跨大西洋联系的赌注. |
| 0:07 | Your own national security documents talk about that strong transatlantic link. | 你自己的国家安全文件谈到这种强大的跨大西洋联系。 |
| 0:12 | Does relying on America feel like a much riskier bet now than when you joined NATO? | 依赖美国现在比加入北约更危险吗? |
| 0:18 | The story of Swedish security policy, since the 40s, or at least the 50s, we have been | 瑞典安全政策的故事,从40年代开始,至少50年代,我们一直 |
| 0:27 | relying heavily on the US. | 严重依赖美国。 |
| 0:29 | You didn't talk about it always? | 你一直没说吗? |
| 0:31 | We didn't talk about it. | 我们没有谈论它。 |
| 0:32 | It was originally secret, you know, just secret in a way that today really can discuss the | 它原本是秘密的,你知道的, 只是秘密的方式,今天真的可以讨论 |
| 0:38 | legitimacy about being so secret, formally neutral, but secretly extremely Western, but | 如此秘密的正当性, 形式中立, 但秘密的极端西方, |
展开字幕全文（92 条）
| 序号 | 英文 | 中文 |
|---|---|---|
| 1 | Joining NATO is a bet on America, among other things. | 加入北约是对美国的赌注,除其他外。 |
| 2 | It's a bet on the strong transatlantic link. | 这是对强大的跨大西洋联系的赌注. |
| 3 | Your own national security documents talk about that strong transatlantic link. | 你自己的国家安全文件谈到这种强大的跨大西洋联系。 |
| 4 | Does relying on America feel like a much riskier bet now than when you joined NATO? | 依赖美国现在比加入北约更危险吗? |
| 5 | The story of Swedish security policy, since the 40s, or at least the 50s, we have been | 瑞典安全政策的故事,从40年代开始,至少50年代,我们一直 |
| 6 | relying heavily on the US. | 严重依赖美国。 |
| 7 | You didn't talk about it always? | 你一直没说吗? |
| 8 | We didn't talk about it. | 我们没有谈论它。 |
| 9 | It was originally secret, you know, just secret in a way that today really can discuss the | 它原本是秘密的,你知道的, 只是秘密的方式,今天真的可以讨论 |
| 10 | legitimacy about being so secret, formally neutral, but secretly extremely Western, but | 如此秘密的正当性, 形式中立, 但秘密的极端西方, |
| 11 | nobody should know, not even our own population. | 没有人应该知道, 甚至我们自己的人口。 |
| 12 | I'm not that proud of that legacy. | 我并不为那遗产感到骄傲 |
| 13 | So the dependency on the US was extremely big in very many aspects. | 因此,对美国的依赖在许多方面都极为严重。 |
| 14 | So my reading is the opposite. | 所以我的阅读是相反的。 |
| 15 | Joining NATO, we join also all the other NATO members, not least the NATO allies in our | 加入北约,我们也加入所有其它北约成员, 包括北约盟国 |
| 16 | own neighborhood. | 自己的邻居。 |
| 17 | We have never been cooperating as closely with our neighbors as we do now because of | 我们从来没有像现在这样 与我们的邻居密切合作 |
| 18 | the NATO membership. | 北约成员国。 |
| 19 | So I'm very transparent. | 所以我非常透明。 |
| 20 | US presence in NATO is obviously very important, and an orderly process in the burden shifting | 美国在北约的存在显然非常重要,在负担转移过程中有一个有序的进程 |
| 21 | is extremely important as well. | 这一点也非常重要。 |
| 22 | It is fair, but it should be orderly. | 这是公平的,但应该有秩序。 |
| 23 | But we are now depending less on bilateral Americans. | 但我们现在不再依赖双边美国人。 |
| 24 | We don't mind the cooperation we have, quite the contrary, but we are depending and relying | 我们不在乎我们的合作,恰恰相反, 但我们依赖和依赖 |
| 25 | more on partners in our own neighborhood. | 更多关于我们的邻居。 |
| 26 | So I'm struck by, you know, we spend our time talking about middle powers trying to work | 所以,我很惊讶,你知道, 我们花时间谈论 中间力量试图工作 |
| 27 | out how to be, you know, navigating this world of big bullies. | 如何是,你知道, 导航这个世界 大恶霸。 |
| 28 | But there's a really interesting gap between, you know, at the beginning of this year you | 但今年初,你有一个非常有趣的差距 |
| 29 | had the Canadian Prime Minister, Mark Carney, he said at Davos, you know, that the middle | 加拿大总理马克·卡尼 在达沃斯说过 中间 |
| 30 | powers need to, you know, basically stand up, push back against the big bullies. | 权力需要,你知道, 基本上站起来, 推回对大恶霸。 |
| 31 | And he meant, among others, America, your middle powers, you know, the Nordics, the | 他指的是美国,你的中间势力,北欧人, |
| 32 | Baltics, you're all working together. | 波罗的海人 你们一起工作 |
| 33 | You seem to be much keener to avoid a direct confrontation with Donald Trump. | 你似乎更渴望避免与唐纳德·特朗普的直接对抗. |
| 34 | Do you think that Mark Carney is going about this the right way? | 你觉得马克・卡尼会用正确的方式吗? |
| 35 | I will not try to kind of, you know, to assess or even less judge on domestic Canadian choices. | 我不会试图,你知道的, 评估甚至更不判断 加拿大国内的选择。 |
| 36 | We have extremely good cooperation with Mark Carney and the Canadian government. | 我们与马克·卡尼和加拿大政府有非常好的合作。 |
| 37 | And I really appreciate his efforts also to be very close to Nordic countries, the most | 我非常赞赏他努力 也非常接近北欧国家 |
| 38 | Nordic country outside the Nordics as they and we normally call each other. | 北欧之外的国家,就像他们和我们通常互相称呼一样。 |
| 39 | We have regular meetings and I really appreciate that. | 我们定期开会,我真的很感激。 |
| 40 | We are not seeking conflicts. | 我们不是在寻求冲突。 |
| 41 | We can accept that we have different views on many things. | 我们可以接受,我们在许多方面有不同的看法。 |
| 42 | When things happen that we think are kind of challenging core values for us, then we | 当事情发生,我们认为 有点挑战我们的核心价值, 然后我们 |
| 43 | are extremely frank. | 非常坦率。 |
| 44 | Greenland, Denmark wasn't such a case. | 格陵兰,丹麦不是这种情况。 |
| 45 | And no American doubts our opinion on that, our stance on that. | 美国人毫不怀疑我们对此的看法,我们的立场。 |
| 46 | On the same time, we do a lot to increase the possibility for Swedish tech companies | 与此同时,我们做了很多工作来增加瑞典科技公司的可能性 |
| 47 | to cooperate with American ones, to be successful in the American market. | 与美国人合作,在美国市场取得成功。 |
| 48 | And we do appreciate a lot of these these corporations. | 我们非常欣赏这些公司。 |
| 49 | We're very pragmatic in that sense. | 从这个意义上讲,我们非常务实。 |
| 50 | Speak out when necessary, but also protect Swedish national interests in relation to | 必要时大声疾呼,但也保护瑞典在下列方面的国家利益: |
| 51 | the US. | 美国。 |
| 52 | But sometimes there's a kind of there's an edge to it, right? | 但有时有种 有它的边缘,对不对? |
| 53 | I mean, when you're in Canada celebrating selling, you know, sub surveillance planes | 我的意思是,当你在加拿大庆祝 销售,你知道,子监视飞机 |
| 54 | or you're selling grippens to Canada, I mean, that that's Sweden offering itself as | 或者你正在卖给加拿大, 我的意思是,这是瑞典 主动作为 |
| 55 | a safe alternative to an unreliable America. | 一个安全的替代品 一个不可靠的美国。 |
| 56 | No, that's that's what's going on. | 不 就是这样 |
| 57 | That's not for us to decide is no. | 这不是由我们决定的,不是 |
| 58 | We we love what's going on. | 我们喜欢发生的一切 |
| 59 | We love to sell the grip and fight this way. | 我们爱卖力气,这样战斗 |
| 60 | To be frank, we haven't yet finalized the deal with Canada, even though we are proud | 坦白说,我们还没有敲定 与加拿大的交易,尽管我们感到骄傲 |
| 61 | making proud offers to them. | 为他们而骄傲。 |
| 62 | But of course, we are doing everything we can to to make make have these business | 当然,我们正在尽我们所能 做这些生意 |
| 63 | opportunities, not least in this very dangerous world. | 特别是在这个非常危险的世界里 |
| 64 | Then every country has to make their own decisions on whether to to how they kind of | 那么每个国家必须自行决定 是否要如何 |
| 65 | spread different risks and dependencies across the world. | 将不同的风险和依赖性分散在世界各地。 |
| 66 | But, you know, the things that have happened, including, as you say, the threats to take | 但是,你知道,已经发生的事情, 包括,如你所说,威胁采取 |
| 67 | Greenland have been such a shock that people are now saying we can't depend on America | 格陵兰如此震惊 人们现在说我们不能依赖美国 |
| 68 | to this extent. | 至此范围. |
| 69 | We're worried about American kill switches. | 我们担心的是美国杀人开关 |
| 70 | And then people often say, so maybe instead of buying an F-35 from America, we need to | 然后人们经常说,所以也许 而不是从美国购买F -35,我们需要 |
| 71 | buy a Gripen fighter from Sweden. | 从瑞典买个格利彭战斗机 |
| 72 | So I guess I don't mind the reasons. | 所以我想我不介意这些原因 |
| 73 | I don't mind the reasons for them to buy Gripen. | 我不介意他们买格里彭的原因 |
| 74 | I was I will help to sell Gripen anyway. | 我本来想帮忙卖掉格里彭的 |
| 75 | So, you know, you don't want this fight with Donald Trump. | 所以你不想和唐纳德·特朗普吵架 |
| 76 | He's a pretty good salesman for your weapons, no? | 他是你的武器推销员,对吧? |
| 77 | Absolutely. | 当然 |
| 78 | And and different countries will always have to make up their minds on | 不同的国家总是要决定 |
| 79 | providers, on dependencies. | 供应商,依赖依赖。 |
| 80 | And I think this actually goes slightly beyond the current situation. | 我认为这实际上有点超出目前的情况。 |
| 81 | I mean, U.S. is one of the is the world's biggest provider of military equipment. | 我的意思是,美国是世界上最大的军事装备提供者之一。 |
| 82 | But Europe is also stepping up for good reasons because of availability, of course, | 但是,欧洲也因为有很好的理由而加速,当然, |
| 83 | but also on dependencies and trust around the table. | 但也取决于周围的依赖和信任。 |
| 84 | I mean, I hear from other European governments there's trust has been badly damaged. | 我从其他欧洲政府那里听说 信任受到了严重破坏 |
| 85 | A few things you really need to be very sure that you actually can access when you need | 有些事你真的需要非常确定 当你需要的时候你确实可以访问 |
| 86 | them. | 他们。 |
| 87 | There is a reason why Sweden built up a national competence on military equipment | 瑞典建立军事装备方面的国家能力是有原因的。 |
| 88 | since the 30s and partly because of neutrality. | 从30年代开始 部分是因为中立 |
| 89 | We wanted to be self-sufficient, but also because we we we wanted to have different | 我们想自给自足 但也因为我们想有不同的 |
| 90 | sources. | 来源。 |
| 91 | So I think this is a mutual, you know, mutual dependency and and kind of | 所以,我认为这是一个相互的,你知道的, 互相依赖和类型的 |
| 92 | spreading these dependencies are basically a good idea for Sweden and for other countries. | 传播这些依附关系对瑞典和其他国家来说基本上是一个好主意。 |
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