6-27 俄罗斯如何将乌克兰人变成间谍 | BBC全球新闻播
字幕摘录
| 时间 | 英文 | 中文 |
|---|---|---|
| 0:00 | Welcome to the Global News podcast from the BBC. | 欢迎来到英国广播公司的全球新闻播客。 |
| 0:02 | I'm Valerie Sanderson and I'm joined by | 我是瓦莱丽・桑德森 我加入 |
| 0:05 | Paul Moss, our global affairs reporter. | 保罗・莫斯,我们的全球事务记者。 |
| 0:08 | And Paul, we have this extraordinary story of espionage | 保罗,我们有一个非凡的故事 关于间谍 |
| 0:12 | and betrayal with the top Ukrainian official convicted of spying for Russia and sentenced | 并背叛了乌克兰最高官员 被判为俄罗斯间谍 |
| 0:18 | to life imprisonment. | 至终身监禁。 |
| 0:20 | What can you tell us about him? | 你能告诉我们他什么情况吗? |
| 0:21 | Well, he was the head of counterterrorism | 他是反恐队长 |
| 0:23 | and counterintelligence at the SBU. | 和反情报在SBU。 |
| 0:26 | That's the Ukrainian security service. | 那是乌克兰安全部门 |
展开字幕全文（241 条）
| 序号 | 英文 | 中文 |
|---|---|---|
| 1 | Welcome to the Global News podcast from the BBC. | 欢迎来到英国广播公司的全球新闻播客。 |
| 2 | I'm Valerie Sanderson and I'm joined by | 我是瓦莱丽・桑德森 我加入 |
| 3 | Paul Moss, our global affairs reporter. | 保罗・莫斯,我们的全球事务记者。 |
| 4 | And Paul, we have this extraordinary story of espionage | 保罗,我们有一个非凡的故事 关于间谍 |
| 5 | and betrayal with the top Ukrainian official convicted of spying for Russia and sentenced | 并背叛了乌克兰最高官员 被判为俄罗斯间谍 |
| 6 | to life imprisonment. | 至终身监禁。 |
| 7 | What can you tell us about him? | 你能告诉我们他什么情况吗? |
| 8 | Well, he was the head of counterterrorism | 他是反恐队长 |
| 9 | and counterintelligence at the SBU. | 和反情报在SBU。 |
| 10 | That's the Ukrainian security service. | 那是乌克兰安全部门 |
| 11 | And so he had | 因此,他拥有 |
| 12 | huge responsibility, but it turned out, yes, he was working for Moscow all along. | 他一直为莫斯科工作 |
| 13 | Now, because he | 现在,因为他 |
| 14 | was head of counterintelligence, one of the main things the Russians wanted to know is how much do | 俄国人最想知道的一件事是 有多少工作 |
| 15 | they know about us, if you see what I mean. | 他们知道我们,如果你明白我的意思。 |
| 16 | That sounds rather convoluted, but such is the nature | 这听起来相当曲折, 但这就是自然 |
| 17 | of someone who was effectively a double agent. | 是一个双重间谍 |
| 18 | But we know that he was also passing information on | 但我们知道他也在传递关于 |
| 19 | much more down to earth things, Ukrainian troop movements. | 更下到地球的东西, 乌克兰部队调动。 |
| 20 | The Russians also wanted to know how | 俄罗斯人也想知道 |
| 21 | much damage is it doing when we hit particular sites, presumably so they could know whether they | 大部分破坏是当我们撞到特定地点时造成的, 可能是为了让他们知道他们是否 |
| 22 | were worth striking again. | 又值得一击 |
| 23 | And another thing that we know that this man was passing on to the Russians | 还有一件事,我们知道 这个人正在传递给俄罗斯人 |
| 24 | was details of other staff working at the SBU. | 是其他在SBU工作的工作人员的详情。 |
| 25 | Now, that's interesting, because it suggests that | 现在,这很有趣,因为它暗示 |
| 26 | maybe the Russians were thinking, well, if we can find people who are vulnerable, maybe other people | 也许俄国人在想 如果我们能找到那些脆弱的人 也许其他人 |
| 27 | will be open to offers from us to come and spy. | 我们愿意来做间谍 |
| 28 | All in all, it shows, though, that the Russians who | 总之,它显示,俄罗斯人谁 |
| 29 | were able to recruit someone very, very high up indeed, which will be of considerable concern to | 能够招募到一个非常,非常高的人 确实,这将引起人们的极大关注 |
| 30 | Ukraine. | 乌克兰。 |
| 31 | And how did Ukraine catch him? | 乌克兰是怎么抓到他的? |
| 32 | They started this operation, didn't they, called | 他们发动了这次行动,不是吗? |
| 33 | Operation Rat. | 老鼠行动 |
| 34 | Operation Rat, yes, great name. | 老鼠行动,是的,好名字 |
| 35 | They haven't given too much detail, but it seems | 他们没有给出太多细节,但似乎 |
| 36 | that this involved the way in which this man, the colonel, was himself communicating with Russia. | 这涉及到这个人,上校 是如何与俄罗斯沟通的。 |
| 37 | And they ended up finding a safe house with mobile phones, special mobile phones and a special | 他们最后找到了一个安全屋 手机,特殊手机和特别 |
| 38 | internet router that couldn't be detected. | 无法检测到的互联网路由器。 |
| 39 | And that's how they caught them. | 他们就是这样抓住他们的 |
| 40 | But they've said this | 但他们说 |
| 41 | was an unprecedented operation, and you could see why. | 这是一个前所未有的行动, 你可以看到原因。 |
| 42 | Can you imagine how difficult it must be? | 你能想象这有多难吗? |
| 43 | Because this was someone who was right at the top of the SBU, and the SBU had to investigate him | 因为这个人正值国安局高层 国安局只好调查他 |
| 44 | without him finding out. | 没有他发现。 |
| 45 | And it was very important he didn't find out that he was being investigated, | 非常重要的是,他没有发现 他正在接受调查, |
| 46 | firstly because they wanted to catch him, but also because once they did work out he was indeed a spy, | 首先因为他们想抓他 但也因为一旦他们成功了 他确实是一个间谍 |
| 47 | they did something very clever. | 他们做了一件非常聪明的事 |
| 48 | The SBU didn't immediately arrest him. | SBU没有立即逮捕他. |
| 49 | What they did | 他们做了什么 |
| 50 | was they fed him false information, which they knew would then go back to Russia, | 假若他们以假消息供给他,那末,他们必定要返回俄国。 |
| 51 | and the Russians would be using that false information. | 俄国人会利用这个虚假信息 |
| 52 | But eventually, of course, | 但最终,当然, |
| 53 | they did decide to move in. | 他们决定搬进来了 |
| 54 | He was arrested more than a year ago, and his fight case has finally | 他一年多前被捕 他的斗殴案件终于 |
| 55 | closed. | 关闭。 |
| 56 | I mean, do you know why they suspected him? | 你知道他们为什么怀疑他吗? |
| 57 | Because as you said, he was at the very top. | 因为正如你说的,他非常顶尖。 |
| 58 | We don't have that information. | 我们没有这个信息。 |
| 59 | What we do know is that he was recruited a long time ago, back in 2018 | 我们所知道的是,他很早就被征召入伍了,早在2018年 |
| 60 | in Vienna. | 在维也纳。 |
| 61 | We know that he was motivated by money. | 我们知道他是为了钱 |
| 62 | Cash was handed over. | 现金已经移交。 |
| 63 | But basically, | 不过基本上 |
| 64 | the Russians, I suppose, kept him as what they call a sleeper. | 俄国人,我猜,把他当做潜伏者 |
| 65 | He wasn't really doing very much | 他没有做很多 |
| 66 | until the Russian invasion of Ukraine. | 直到俄国入侵乌克兰 |
| 67 | They were obviously looking ahead, | 他们显然在向前看 |
| 68 | at which point he was activated and became very, very useful to him. | 此时他被激活,变得对他非常,非常有用. |
| 69 | And this is not the first high-profile case, is it, in Ukraine? | 这不是乌克兰第一个引人注目的案件,是吗? |
| 70 | The extent of Russian penetration is certainly going to be a worry. | 俄罗斯的渗透程度肯定令人担心。 |
| 71 | We know that there have been | 我们知道,有 |
| 72 | literally thousands of investigations into Ukrainians for spying, and we know that hundreds | 对乌克兰人进行成千上万次间谍调查 我们知道有上百人 |
| 73 | of them have been successful. | 其中,我们取得了成功。 |
| 74 | Obviously, in the east of the country, people are giving | 显然,在该国东部,人们正在给予 |
| 75 | information on troop movements, very simple things like that. | 关于部队调动的信息,非常简单的事情。 |
| 76 | In the west of the country, | 在西边 |
| 77 | people have been given information on things like installations, infrastructure, | 人们得到了有关设施、基础设施、 |
| 78 | targets that the Russians might attack. | 俄国人可能攻击的目标 |
| 79 | They vary enormously in the kinds of people involved | 参与的人种类大不相同 |
| 80 | and why they did it. | 和为什么他们这样做。 |
| 81 | Some, yes, for money. | 一些,是的,为了钱。 |
| 82 | There are also people who seem to have been almost | 也有人似乎已经几乎 |
| 83 | tricked, and an old Russian trick dating back to the Cold War, which was called the honey trap, | 一个古老的俄国把戏 追溯到冷战时期 叫做蜜蜂陷阱 |
| 84 | using romantic seduction to get people. | 利用浪漫诱惑来吸引人 |
| 85 | We know of one case where there was a 19-year-old | 我们知道有一个案子是19岁 |
| 86 | daughter of a priest. | 一个牧师的女儿。 |
| 87 | She seems to have been charmed by a Russian handler. | 她好像被一个俄国人迷住了 |
| 88 | And what she was | 还有她是什么 |
| 89 | doing, she was going up to the second floor of her father's church and filming the Ukrainian | 她去他父亲的教堂二楼 拍摄乌克兰人 |
| 90 | troop movements, live streaming them to Russia. | 部队的移动, 现场流到俄罗斯。 |
| 91 | She was paid, but it seems that this was all done | 她有工资,但似乎一切都结束了 |
| 92 | by charm. | 以魅力为本。 |
| 93 | As I say, the extent of this really quite remarkable. | 正如我所说,这种程度确实相当显著。 |
| 94 | Is it always about money or is | 是钱还是钱 |
| 95 | it about ideology too? | 也是关于意识形态的? |
| 96 | I think we can certainly see cases where that's happened. | 我想我们可以肯定看到 发生这种情况的案例。 |
| 97 | I mean, older | 我是说,年纪大了 |
| 98 | people, they will remember when Ukraine and Russia were in the same country, the Soviet Union. | 人们,他们会记得 当乌克兰和俄罗斯 在同一国家,苏联。 |
| 99 | For | 对于 |
| 100 | them, this feels very much like a sort of civil war. | 他们,这感觉就像一场内战。 |
| 101 | They will have had friends and former allies | 他们会有朋友和前盟友 |
| 102 | on the other side, and there's no way around it. | 在另一边,没有办法绕过它。 |
| 103 | Some of them have been sympathetic to Russia, | 他们中有些人同情俄罗斯, |
| 104 | sympathetic to the Russian cause, and certainly some of the people have given information to the | 同情俄罗斯的事业,当然有些人向俄罗斯提供了信息。 |
| 105 | Russians for that reason. | 俄国人为此故. |
| 106 | What does it tell us, do you think, Paul, about corruption in Ukraine? | 你对乌克兰的腐败有什么看法? |
| 107 | I | 一、导 言 |
| 108 | mean, corruption is well documented, isn't it? | 腐败是有记录的 不是吗? |
| 109 | Indeed. | 没错 |
| 110 | I mean, in that respect, I don't think | 我的意思是,在这方面,我不认为 |
| 111 | we should be too surprised that people have been bribed into spying for Russia. | 我们应该感到太惊讶 人们被贿赂为俄罗斯间谍 |
| 112 | I mean, yes, it's a | 我的意思是,是的,这是一个 |
| 113 | fact that corruption is very much a problem in Russia. | 事实上,腐败在俄罗斯是一个非常严重的问题。 |
| 114 | We've seen high-level people in Ukraine | 我们在乌克兰见过高层人士 |
| 115 | guilty of, for example, taking money that was supposed to go to the armed forces and using it | 比如说,拿钱给武装部队使用 |
| 116 | for themselves, cases which have really horrified the public. | 对于他们自己来说,这些案例确实令公众感到震惊。 |
| 117 | So I guess if people can be bribed | 我想如果有人受贿的话 |
| 118 | to do anything like that, to give jobs to people in order to get more money, then yes, | 做任何类似的事情, 给人工作 为了得到更多的钱,然后是的, |
| 119 | they'll take bribes to spy for Russia. | 他们会收受贿赂为俄国做间谍 |
| 120 | It all sums up sort of images of what happened in the | 这一切总结了 发生在... |
| 121 | Cold War and the tradition of Russian spying, which is still going on. | 冷战和俄罗斯的间谍传统,至今仍在持续. |
| 122 | Absolutely. | 当然 |
| 123 | I mean, | 我是说... |
| 124 | a lot of them were still around from the KGB days and Russia was very well honed during the Cold War | 很多人还在克格勃的日子里 俄国在冷战期间很受欢迎 |
| 125 | and had a lot of success in penetrating at a high level. | 并在高水平的穿透中取得了很大的成功. |
| 126 | And people with a long memory, | 还有记忆力很强的人 |
| 127 | remember in Britain we had this trio, they were called Philby, Burgess and McLean, | 记得在英国我们有过三重奏 他们叫菲尔比 伯吉斯和麦克莱恩 |
| 128 | three people right at the top of the spying establishment in Britain who it turned out all | 三个人在英国的间谍机构顶端 结果都成了 |
| 129 | along were spying for Russia. | 他们正在监视俄国 |
| 130 | George Blake, Anthony Blunt, other names like this. | 乔治・布莱克,安东尼・布伦特, 其他名字像这样。 |
| 131 | In fact, | 事实上, |
| 132 | it caused a major problem during the Cold War because it reached a point where the Americans, | 它在冷战期间造成了一个重大问题,因为它达到了美国人, |
| 133 | the CIA, didn't want to give information to Britain because they regarded it as leaking. | 中情局不想向英国提供情报 因为他们认为是泄露 |
| 134 | But then America had problems of their own. | 但后来美国也有自己的问题. |
| 135 | 有个叫Aldrich Ames的人 其实死了 | |
| 136 | earlier this year. | 今年早些时候。 |
| 137 | He was simply out for the money. | 他只是为了钱才出去的 |
| 138 | He was a senior CIA man. | 他是中情局的高级人员 |
| 139 | He needed cash | 他需要现金 |
| 140 | and he walked into the Russian embassy in the United States and said, how much for information | 他走进俄罗斯驻美国大使馆 说要多少信息 |
| 141 | and sold it at a level. | 并在一个水平上出售。 |
| 142 | And many people are thought to have suffered as a result. | 而许多人被认为因此受苦. |
| 143 | Do we know about | 我们知道 |
| 144 | the extent of Russia spying on other countries now? | 俄罗斯现在监视其他国家的程度? |
| 145 | Because obviously it must be different now | 因为很明显它现在一定不一样了 |
| 146 | in terms of the technology. | 在技术方面。 |
| 147 | Technology has changed everything. | 技术改变了一切。 |
| 148 | I mean, first of all, | 我的意思是,首先, |
| 149 | in terms of recruitment, we know that some of these people in Ukraine are recruited over | 在招募方面,我们知道乌克兰境内的一些人是被招募过来的。 |
| 150 | 互联网通过Telegram。 | |
| 151 | They offer simple, they actually put out ads, you know, | 他们提供简单, 他们实际上发布广告,你知道, |
| 152 | give us a help and we will pay you. | 帮帮忙,我们会付你钱的 |
| 153 | You know, it can be done by cryptocurrency. | 你知道,它可以通过密码货币完成。 |
| 154 | We certainly know that the number of arrests for espionage have shot up. | 我们当然知道,以间谍罪逮捕的人数已经增加。 |
| 155 | We don't know if that | 我们不知道是不是 |
| 156 | means we're catching them. | 意味着我们要抓住他们。 |
| 157 | I mean, hundreds of diplomats in Europe have been returned to Russia, | 我的意思是,欧洲的数百名外交官 已经返回俄罗斯, |
| 158 | Russian diplomats, and many of them were, as the euphemism goes, guilty of activities incompatible | 俄国外交官和他们中许多人,就像委婉地说的那样, 犯下了不相容的行为 |
| 159 | with their status, which means spying. | 他们的身份, 这意味着间谍。 |
| 160 | But there have been other cases, similar in fact to this | 但还有其他案件 与这类似 |
| 161 | Colonel, where they were sleepers. | 上校,他们睡过的地方 |
| 162 | I mean, there was the supposedly Brazilian academic who was | 我的意思是,有 所谓的巴西学术谁是 |
| 163 | arrested in Norway. | 在挪威被捕的记者。 |
| 164 | He was actually a Russian. | 他其实是俄罗斯人 |
| 165 | He'd been a supposedly Brazilian academic in | 他是巴西的学者 |
| 166 | Canada before. | 之前是加拿大吗? |
| 167 | He was actually finding out lots of information about the polar region. | 他实际上发现了许多关于极地地区的信息。 |
| 168 | Here in | 在这里 |
| 169 | Britain, we saw a ring of Bulgarians arrested for allegedly spying for Russia. | 英国,我们看到一串保加利亚人被捕 涉嫌为俄罗斯进行间谍活动。 |
| 170 | I mean, these people | 我是说,这些人 |
| 171 | had also been in Britain for a very long time. | 也在英国呆了很长一段时间 |
| 172 | So it's very possible that the activities have | 所以,非常有可能的活动有 |
| 173 | kept up or it's possible it's been the same since the Cold War ended. | 保持原状,否则就可能 冷战结束以来就一直如此 |
| 174 | It's just that we've | 只是,我们已经 |
| 175 | started to notice and indeed started to care about it a bit more. | 开始注意到,事实上开始关心它。 |
| 176 | And what about the other way around? | 那反过来呢? |
| 177 | Because the West spies on Russia too, doesn't it? | 因为西方也在监视俄国 不是吗? |
| 178 | Russia is, by some accounts, having a record number of arrests for espionage and treason. | 根据某些说法,俄罗斯因间谍和叛国而被捕的人数创纪录。 |
| 179 | One | 一个 |
| 180 | group that monitors this said, in fact, this year has been a bumper year for Russia arresting people | 事实上今年是俄罗斯逮捕民众的一年, |
| 181 | for espionage. | 间谍罪 |
| 182 | They fall into... Internally? | 他们掉进... 内部? |
| 183 | Yes. | 对 |
| 184 | Well, yes, internally. | 嗯,是的,内部。 |
| 185 | They fall into different categories. | 它们属于不同的类别。 |
| 186 | You first of all got | 你首先会 |
| 187 | arrested in Russia for espionage. | 在俄罗斯因间谍罪被捕 |
| 188 | Now, Russia is deeply, deeply worried about any kind of | 现在,俄罗斯对于任何一种 |
| 189 | foreign interference. | 外国干涉。 |
| 190 | One allegation is if you simply accept help from a foreign organization, | 一个指控是如果你接受外国组织的帮助 |
| 191 | maybe a human rights group, you can get yourself arrested for espionage. | 也许一个人权团体, 你可以让自己被捕 间谍。 |
| 192 | But there have also been foreigners arrested in Russia. | 但也有外国人在俄罗斯被捕. |
| 193 | I mean, I think of people like | 我的意思是,我觉得人们喜欢 |
| 194 | Ivan Gurskovich, the Wall Street Journal journalist. | 伊万·古尔斯科维奇,华尔街日报记者. |
| 195 | He was openly reporting. | 他公开报道。 |
| 196 | He wasn't | 他没有 |
| 197 | hiding in Siberia, but he suddenly found himself arrested for espionage. | 躲在西伯利亚,但他突然发现自己因间谍罪被捕. |
| 198 | His defenders would say | 他的辩护人会说 |
| 199 | he was simply used as a bargaining chip, and sure enough, he was later swapped. | 他只是被当作一个讨价还价的筹码, 而且很确定,他后来被交换。 |
| 200 | I should say | 我应该说 |
| 201 | another category is not within Russia itself, but within Russia-occupied Ukraine. | 另一类不属于俄罗斯本身,而是属于俄罗斯占领的乌克兰。 |
| 202 | Hundreds of people | 数以百计的人 |
| 203 | have been arrested there for espionage. | 曾因间谍罪被捕 |
| 204 | Ukrainians, who may well indeed have been very brave people, | 乌克兰人, 很可能是非常勇敢的人, |
| 205 | feeding information back to their home country, Ukraine, about what the Russians are up to. | 向祖国乌克兰反馈俄罗斯人所做的事 |
| 206 | And they've had very severe prison sentences for doing this. | 他们为此被判了非常严重的徒刑。 |
| 207 | And how important do you think spying is for the Russian state? | 你认为间谍对俄罗斯国家有多重要? |
| 208 | I mean, I suppose what we | 我的意思是,我想我们 |
| 209 | should remember is the man at the top, Vladimir Putin, started off as a KGB spy, didn't he? | 应该记得 顶级人物弗拉基米尔·普京 一开始是克格勃间谍 是吗 |
| 210 | I think that's very important. | 我觉得这很重要 |
| 211 | So he's obviously going to take espionage as a crucial role for | 所以他显然要把间谍作为关键角色 |
| 212 | any country. | 任何国家。 |
| 213 | I mean, certainly if people are able to deliver targets and tell people about | 我的意思是,当然,如果人们能够 交付目标,告诉人们 |
| 214 | for installations and what's important, what infrastructure is vulnerable, that has got to be | 以及什么是重要的,什么 基础设施是脆弱的, 那必须是 |
| 215 | useful to Russia. | 对俄罗斯有用 |
| 216 | I think at the same time, we should remember that one could argue that there | 我认为,与此同时,我们应该记住,人们可以争论,在那里 |
| 217 | has been one huge intelligence failure. | 已经是一个巨大的智能故障。 |
| 218 | When Vladimir Putin launched this invasion of Ukraine, | 当弗拉基米尔·普京发动这次对乌克兰的入侵时, |
| 219 | he famously thought that the country would fold and the war would be over in a few weeks. | 他有名的以为国家会崩溃 战争几周后就会结束 |
| 220 | Now, some people will tell you that that is because of bad intelligence, bad intelligence | 现在,有些人会告诉你,那是因为 糟糕的智力,糟糕的智力 |
| 221 | about Ukraine's military vulnerability. | 关于乌克兰的军事脆弱性。 |
| 222 | But there were also people suggesting to the Russians, | 但也有人向俄国人暗示 |
| 223 | suggesting to the Kremlin, look, you have lots of supporters and sympathizers in Ukraine, | 向克里姆林宫建议,你看, 你在乌克兰有很多支持者和同情者, |
| 224 | in politics, in the military and civil society. | 在政治、军事和民间社会中。 |
| 225 | When you invade, they will rise up in support of | 当你入侵时,他们会起立支持 |
| 226 | you. | 你们 |
| 227 | Well, that didn't happen. | 嗯,那没有发生。 |
| 228 | And the intelligence about Ukraine's military structures proved to be | 乌克兰军事结构的情报 |
| 229 | underestimating it. | 低估了这一点。 |
| 230 | And that is perhaps why we had a war that was supposed to last a few weeks, | 也许这就是为什么我们有一场战争 应该持续几个星期, |
| 231 | and we're still going more than four years later. | 4年多之后,我们仍会去 |
| 232 | Thanks, Paul. | 谢谢 保罗 |
| 233 | And that was Paul Moss, | 这是保罗・莫斯, |
| 234 | our Global Affairs reporter. | 我们的全球事务记者。 |
| 235 | If you want to find out more about this story, just listen to the | 如果你想知道更多关于这个故事, 只要听 |
| 236 | Global News podcast, click on the link below. | 全球新闻播客,点击以下链接. |
| 237 | But that's it from this edition of the Global | 但这就是这版的"全球" |
| 238 | YouTube上的新闻播客 | |
| 239 | Thanks for listening. | 谢谢你的倾听。 |
| 240 | Thanks for watching. | 谢谢你的观看。 |
| 241 | Bye for now. | 再见 |
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