7-4 南非爆发大规模反移民抗议 | BBC全球新闻播客

发布于 2026-07-04 · 时长 12:36

字幕摘录

时间	英文	中文
0:00	Hello, welcome to the Global News podcast from the BBC.	欢迎光临英国广播公司的全球新闻播客
0:02	I'm Ankur Desai and today I'm joined by	我是安库尔·德赛今天我加入
0:04	Pumza Falani, 我们在约翰内斯堡的记者。
0:07	We're going to talk about the growing anti-migrant	我们来谈谈不断增长的反移民
0:09	protests that have swept across the country in recent weeks.	抗议活动席卷全国,
0:13	And Pumza, I mean, this is something	Pumza,我的意思是,这是什么
0:15	which has really gripped the nation.	它确实控制了全国
0:16	But first of all, just tell us what these protests are all about.	但首先,只要告诉我们这些抗议到底是怎么回事。
0:21	To answer that question, let's give a bit of context also about the makeup of South Africa	为了回答这个问题,让我们来谈谈南非的构成
0:25	currently.	现在。

展开字幕全文（182 条）

序号	英文	中文
1	Hello, welcome to the Global News podcast from the BBC.	欢迎光临英国广播公司的全球新闻播客
2	I'm Ankur Desai and today I'm joined by	我是安库尔·德赛今天我加入
3	Pumza Falani, 我们在约翰内斯堡的记者。
4	We're going to talk about the growing anti-migrant	我们来谈谈不断增长的反移民
5	protests that have swept across the country in recent weeks.	抗议活动席卷全国,
6	And Pumza, I mean, this is something	Pumza,我的意思是,这是什么
7	which has really gripped the nation.	它确实控制了全国
8	But first of all, just tell us what these protests are all about.	但首先,只要告诉我们这些抗议到底是怎么回事。
9	To answer that question, let's give a bit of context also about the makeup of South Africa	为了回答这个问题,让我们来谈谈南非的构成
10	currently.	现在。
11	So South Africa is currently home to about three million foreign nationals.	因此,南非目前约有300万外国人。
12	These are	这些是
13	the official figures.	官方数字。
14	But some estimates say this could be much higher, that the number of people	但有些估计说,这可能要高得多, 人数
15	that are not documented but are in the country could run a lot higher than that three million.	没有记录,但在该国的运行可能比这300万多得多。
16	Now usually when foreign nationals come into South Africa, they'll tend to settle in areas	现在,通常当外国人来到南非, 他们倾向于定居的地区
17	where there are prospects for employment, to start businesses, and they'll tend to live in	在那里,有就业前景, 创业, 他们将倾向于生活在
18	areas where housing is more readily affordable.	住房价格更低廉的地区。
19	So the townships, for example.	故以乡镇为例.
20	Now this context	现在这个背景
21	is important because the majority of South Africans find themselves in that setup as well.	这一点很重要,因为大多数南非人也处于这种境地。
22	This is	这是
23	where the majority of Black South Africans particularly live.	多数南非黑人特别生活在那里。
24	They live in the townships	他们住在乡下
25	still and they tend to be going for similar jobs if you're talking about people that are low skilled	如果你说的是那些技术水平低的人他们往往也会去做类似的工作
26	labour.	劳动。
27	Now this is the recipe that has brought about tensions in some of these communities and	现在,这种配方在其中一些社区造成紧张局势,
28	protests that we've seen here in recent weeks building up and culminating in that massive	最近几周我们在这里看到的抗议活动不断积聚起来,最终导致了大规模
29	demonstration just a few days ago.	几天前的示威活动
30	Protesters, South African protesters particularly, are saying	抗议者、南非抗议者表示,
31	they are being muscled out of jobs.	他们已经失业了
32	They are saying that they are being muscled out of jobs	他们说,他们被肌肉失业
33	by companies that are instead of hiring them, are hiring undocumented migrants so they can underpay	公司不雇用他们,而是雇用无证移民,以便他们能够低薪
34	them.	他们。
35	This is the claim.	这就是索赔。
36	The other one is that they are seeing first hand a strain on public	另一个是他们亲眼看到公众压力
37	services.	服务。
38	This is state hospitals saying it is very difficult to get proper health care across	这里是国立医院说很难获得适当的医疗照顾
39	hospitals in the country because that they are saying that they're having to share these limited	国内的医院因为他们说他们不得不分享这些有限的
40	resources with foreign nationals.	(b) 与外国国民进行资源交易。
41	Now it's a known phenomenon here in South Africa that people from	现在在南非,人们知道一种现象是:
42	neighboring countries because of a collapse in other countries tend to prefer to come and	邻国因为其他国家的崩溃而倾向于前来
43	receive health care here in South Africa, whether as a short term or because they're already in	无论是短期的还是因为他们已经进入
44	country.	国家。
45	So these are some of the two things that the protesters are complaining about.	这些是抗议者抱怨的两件事。
46	And Pumza, this is something which has really swept across the country as we mentioned at the	Pumza, 这件事情确实席卷全国正如我们提到的
47	start.	开始
48	Just tell us a bit about the atmosphere, not just in some of the big cities like Johannesburg,	跟我们说说大气层不只是约翰内斯堡这样的大城市
49	Cape Town, but in some of the smaller areas too.	开普敦,但是在一些较小的地区。
50	Look, it's something that really has touched at the tensions that exist in some communities.	这是真正触及到一些社区存在的紧张状态的东西。
51	Some have been simmering or bubbling under for years, some for months.	有些已经沉浸或沉浸多年,有些已经几个月。
52	But it's something really	但这是真的
53	that this past week has created a sense of anxiety for some people, particularly those who share	过去一周给一些人,特别是那些共同感到焦虑的人,造成了一种焦虑感。
54	these communities that I've just mentioned, particularly those who find themselves living	我刚刚提到的这些社区, 尤其是那些发现自己活着的人
55	in the township, who come face to face with South Africans who are out of work and believe they are	在镇上,他们与南非人面对面他们失业并相信他们是
56	reasons that they are out of work.	他们失业的原因。
57	We've seen for weeks now talks of this unofficial deadline	我们已经看到几个星期了,现在谈这个非正式的期限
58	that was imposed by campaigners for all undocumented migrants to leave the country saying that	运动者强迫所有无证移民离境,说:
59	they want the government to take the lead on this and they want to make sure that those people	他们想让政府带头并且他们想确保这些人
60	are repatriated by their home countries.	由原籍国遣返。
61	And if not, they are deported by South Africa.	如果没有,他们将被南非驱逐出境。
62	So really	原来如此
63	speaking to the heart of people feeling frustrated, South Africans feeling frustrated	南非人感到沮丧,
64	at what they say is a lack of proper immigration controls by the government and foreign nationals	他们认为政府和外国国民缺乏适当的移民管制
65	on their part feeling that they're being scapegoated for problems that exist, they say,	因为他们觉得自己被当替罪羊了他们说
66	around unemployment, which they say they can't solve and have no part in.	失业, 他们说他们无法解决和没有参与。
67	So the government is no doubt under a lot of pressure.	所以政府无疑是在很大的压力之下.
68	What's their response been to all of	他们的反应是什么?
69	Look, they've tried to strike a balance in their response, I've noticed.	你看,他们试图保持平衡他们的反应,我已经注意到。
70	So on the one hand,	所以一方面,
71	they've said that they understand the genuine grievances around staggering unemployment levels.	他们说,他们理解真正的不满围绕惊人的失业率。
72	We're talking about 30% of the country's population is unemployed.	我们说的是全国30%的人口失业.
73	And some people say some	有些人说
74	organizations say those figures could even be much higher.	这些组织说,这些数字甚至可能要高得多。
75	And a big part of that population	和很大一部分人口
76	is young people, some of them are educated, some are not educated, but they're sitting at home and	年轻人,有些人受过教育,有些人没有受过教育,但他们坐在家里,
77	they are unable to find jobs.	他们找不到工作。
78	So the government has said, look, we understand that these	所以,政府说,你看,我们理解这些
79	grievances are genuine.	冤情是真实的。
80	But on the other hand, we will not allow people to take the law into	但另一方面,我们不允许人们将法律纳入
81	their own hands.	他们的手。
82	This is in response to sporadic reports that we've seen of citizens doing what	这是针对零星的报导我们所看到的公民在做些什么
83	you would call stop searches on people that they find on the streets and wanting them to present	你会呼吁停止搜索在街上发现的人并希望他们呈现
84	proof of nationality and wanting to see people's documentation to see are you here in South Africa	证明你的国籍并想看别人的证件
85	legally or not, the government has said that is not allowed and anyone found to be doing that	无论是在法律上还是在法律上,政府都说不允许这样做,任何人被发现这样做
86	will be arrested and charged with possible harassment and similar charges.	将被逮捕并被指控可能遭到骚扰和类似指控。
87	And then on	然后继续
88	a broader scale, the country's president, Cyril Ramaphosa, addressed the nation just a few weeks	更广义的, 国家主席西里尔·拉马福萨,
89	ago, saying that they are looking at changing tact a little bit that they recognize that there is a	说他们正想改变一下技巧他们意识到有
90	around immigration laws and some of the laws need to be tightened or better managed.	需要加强或更好地管理移民法和一些法律。
91	So if I could	狦и
92	just give you a quick sense here of what they're talking about doing, they're saying firstly, what	只是给你一个快速的感觉在这里,他们谈论的做什么,他们首先说,什么
93	they want to do is start jailing people who employ undocumented migrants.	他们想要做的是开始监禁那些雇用无证移民的人。
94	This is a serious, they're	这是严重的,他们是
95	saying this is a serious offense and they want to be seen to be taking it seriously.	说这是严重的罪行他们想被看成是认真对待的
96	So that's the	所以这是
97	first one.	第一个
98	The second, they say they want to set up courts which will be looking at fast tracking	第二,他们说他们想成立法庭负责快速追踪
99	deportations of people who are found to not have legal status in South Africa.	将在南非被认为没有法律地位的人驱逐出境。
100	So bypassing some of	所以绕过一些
101	the delays that tend to happen in the courts.	法庭上往往发生的拖延。
102	The other big one is that they want to relocate	另一个是他们想搬家
103	repatriation centers which are normally found here in Johannesburg, for example.	例如,通常在约翰内斯堡的遣返中心。
104	They want to move	他们想搬家
105	them and have them closer at border posts so that it's an easier transit between the border post into	让他们靠近边境哨所这样边境哨所之间就更容易进入
106	the receiving country.	接受国。
107	And lastly, they say they want to get better interaction and better	最后,他们说他们想要更好的互动和更好
108	cooperation from African governments saying that for much too long South Africa has borne a	非洲各国政府的合作说,南非长期以来一直承担着一种义务。
109	disproportionate amount of the burden of what happens when other African countries' economies	其他非洲国家经济所承受的负担不成比例
110	struggle.	挣扎。
111	That migration tends to move down towards South Africa and they're saying that they are	移民往往流向南非他们说他们是
112	taking the strain for that and need African governments to also step up and help their citizens.	并需要非洲各国政府也加强和帮助其公民。
113	Pumza, I guess we want to get a sense of how people who've been targeted are feeling because	Pumza 我想我们想了解被攻击的人的感觉
114	this must be quite intimidating and they really are at the centre and heart of what's going on.	这一定是相当吓人, 他们真的处于中心和核心发生了什么事。
115	They certainly have.	当然有
116	I mean I was at the protests earlier this week, this nationwide protest that	我本周早些时候参加过抗议活动这全国性的抗议活动
117	been touted for weeks and it was really disheartening to see people reduced to two bags or a blanket	数周以来,人们被撕成两袋或毯子,令人非常沮丧。
118	who had left their homes with whatever belongings they could grab, fearing that something might	他们带着他们能拿的财物离开自己的家园,他们担心有东西可以拿来。
119	happen.	发生。
120	And on the part of the protests themselves, while they were largely peaceful around the country	抗议活动本身,
121	there were pockets of crowds who really were angry.	有一群人非常愤怒
122	Angry at the helplessness of the situation, angry	怒气冲天的无助
123	at what they feel is the government's failure to speedily address this.	他们认为政府未能迅速解决这个问题。
124	So really just an environment,	所以真的只是一个环境,
125	creating an environment in some parts, certainly on the day that the protests were happening	在某些地方创造环境,
126	in some communities that people are unwelcome and that is something that the foreign nationals that	在一些社区,人们不受欢迎,这是外国人认为
127	I've spoken to have said they've grappled with, that they've lived here for a very long time.	我说过,他们一直在努力, 他们在这里住了很长一段时间。
128	Some	有点
129	yes have said they do not have legal status but they've created homes here so it's a very delicate	是的,他们说他们没有合法身份但是他们在这里创造了家园所以这很微妙
130	thing that needs to be managed.	需要管理的东西。
131	Bums are also seeing people who are now being forced to leave	Bums还看到有人现在被迫离开
132	South Africa but they're also leaving some of their family members behind as well.	南非但他们也留下了一些家庭成员
133	Have we been	我们去过吗?
134	hearing about some of their stories because that's another gut-wrenching part in all of this where	听说他们的一些故事因为这是另一个令人心痛的部分在这一切中,
135	families are being separated because of this and some people are leaving and going back to their	由于这个原因,家庭被分离,有些人离开并回到他们的家庭。
136	home countries but still leaving some members behind.	母国,但仍留下一些成员。
137	Yes that's actually one of the areas	是的,这其实是一个领域
138	that I visited earlier this week was I went to the Malawi consulate here in Johannesburg where	我本周早些时候拜访的是马拉维驻约翰内斯堡领事馆
139	scores and scores of Malawi nationals had fled and taken refuge there fearing what may happen	许多马拉维国民逃到那里避难,
140	over the next few weeks.	在接下来的几周里
141	They'd set up camp there for a few days at the doorstep of the consulate	他们在领事馆门口扎营几天
142	wanting the Malawi government to help get them home and some of the people that I spoke to were	希望马拉维政府能帮助他们回家,
143	giving me examples of how they'd separated from their partners the day before and they don't know	举个例子来说明他们前一天是如何和伙伴分离的他们不知道
144	when they would see them again so how the logistics worked was a bus came and took some people	当他们再次见到他们时后勤部门的工作就是一辆公交车来接一些人
145	their understanding is they were taken to a repatriation center so this would have been	他们的理解是,他们被带到一个遣返中心,这样本来是
146	a group of women and then men would have been taken in a later bus so some of the men that	一群女人,然后男人会被带在后面的公交车上所以一些男人,
147	were left behind were concerned that they don't know what the makeup of the repatriation center	担心他们不知道遣返中心的构成
148	is when they arrive there so they don't know if they were able to be reunited with their wives	当他们到达那里,所以他们不知道他们是否能够与妻子团聚
149	and children or if their only chance of being reunited will be when they eventually land in	和孩子,如果他们唯一的团聚机会是当他们最终降落在
150	Malawi so those sort of concerns for people very palpable and some people even telling me there	马拉维对人们的担忧非常明显有些人甚至告诉我
151	that look they understand some of them were confiding saying we don't have the documentation	看样子他们明白他们中有些人在说我们没有文件
152	but things have really become so bad that we are willing to be repatriated and will not return to	但事情真的变得如此糟糕以至于我们愿意被遣返并且不会返回
153	Africa fearing that this might not be a short-term problem that maybe this might be a sign of the	非洲担心这可能不是一个短期问题,也许可能是一个迹象。
154	times globally that the world is changing and and people are wanting to be clearer on people's legal	世界正在发生变化,人们希望更清楚地了解人们的法律
155	status whatever the circumstances of what got them here and finally what will this mean for	不管是什么情况把他们带到这儿来最后这是什么意思
156	regional stability south africa plays such a key role in the region as we know but the broader	据我们所知,南部非洲区域稳定在本区域发挥着关键作用,但范围更广。
157	impact of these demonstrations what could it do to impact south africa's relationships with other	如何影响非洲南部与其他
158	African countries nearby look it's already strained relations with a few African countries	附近非洲国家看来已经与几个非洲国家的关系紧张了
159	we've seen what would automatically would ordinarily be behind the scenes discussions	我们已经看到什么会自动在幕后讨论
160	playing out on social media with some African countries Ghana for example accusing South Africa	例如,加纳指责南非。
161	of turning a blind eye to what they claim are abuses happening in the country so the	视而不见他们声称的国内正在发生的虐待事件
162	attentions there now are diplomatic tensions certainly that will need to be smoothed out	现在的外交紧张局势肯定需要缓和
163	and South Africa in the region has been known as the sort of country that is reconciliatory	该地区南非被称为和解国家
164	that wants to reconcile and be friendly with all its neighbors but on the other side though and	想要和所有邻居和解和友好但是在另一边
165	Cyril Ramaphosa总统已经表明他愿意尝试并修复
166	those frayed relationships but on the other hand he's also said in addition to doing that he will	那些被撕裂的关系,但另一方面,他也说除了做,他会
167	be sending teams to the rest of Africa to communicate that things need to change he wants	派小队到非洲其他地方传达他想要改变的事情
168	to communicate this new strategy that the South African officials want to now follow and get	南非官员现在希望遵循的这一新战略
169	explicit buy-in from African countries saying again it is disproportionately burdened with having	非洲国家明确同意再次表示,它承担过重的负担是:
170	to look after in quotes in quotes the the continent and that African governments need to be taking a	在引用的引文中提及非洲大陆,非洲各国政府需要采取
171	proactive stance on getting their economies up and running so that people do not need to flee	* 采取积极主动的立场,使经济起步和运行起来,使人民不必逃离;
172	for what they consider better economic conditions so it's a two-fold response so far but certainly	对于他们认为更好的经济条件, 所以这是一个双倍的反应到目前为止,但肯定
173	one where we saw the country's president there seeming to hint at a slight shift of how they	这个国家的总统似乎暗示了他们之间的小转变
174	will be negotiating with African governments going forward.	将与非洲国家政府谈判。
175	Yes well this is a story I think	是的,我想这是个故事
176	which is going to continue to rumble on for the foreseeable future and possibly something we'll	在可预见的未来,我们可能会继续纠缠
177	revisit again but thank you so much for outlining what's happening in South Africa for the time	再次回顾,但非常感谢你概述在南非发生的事情的时间
178	we appreciate your time that's Pumza Falani correspondent in Johannesburg.	感谢您在约翰内斯堡的Pumza Falani记者
179	Just to remind	只是为了提醒
180	you if you do want more global news podcast content do subscribe and click on the link below	如果您想要更多全球新闻播客内容, 请订阅并点击以下链接
181	for now we'll see you on the next episode.	现在下集见
182	For now we'll see you on the next episode.	现在下集再见

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