“发明”经济学的真的是经济学家吗？全球商业网络如何建立？耶鲁

“发明”经济学的真的是经济学家吗？全球商业网络如何建立？耶鲁社会学家最新力作或许能给你启示

发布于 2022-10-28 · 时长 1:08:29

字幕摘录

时间	英文	中文
0:04	All right, welcome everybody.	好吧,欢迎大家。
0:05	My name is Devin Lau and I'm the associate director of Yale Center Beijing, and we are very happy today to host another talk and in our ongoing lectures.	我叫刘德文,我是耶鲁中心北京的副主任,今天我们非常高兴地主持另一场演讲和我们正在进行的讲座。
0:17	And for those of you that are unfamiliar, Yale Center Beijing is Yale's only university wide center outside of New Haven, that we've hosted over now 100 plus events online featuring different Yale professors spanning everything from astronomy to art histo	而对于你们中不熟悉的人来说,耶鲁北京中心是耶鲁唯一的大学广域中心在纽黑文之外,我们已经主持过100多个在线活动, 由不同耶鲁的教授组成, 包括天文学、艺术史、音乐、生物学, 所以我们的另一位好朋友, Emily Erickson教授今天也加入了我们。
0:46	And joining us as well as Helen He Yang.	加入我们的还有海伦贺杨
0:50	So thank you all, and thank you for joining us today for a special book talk that is co hosted by Shanghai People's Publishing House.	所以感谢大家,感谢大家今天同我们一起参加由上海人民出版社联合主办的特别书评会.
0:58	They're the publisher of the Chinese translation of Professor Emily Erickson's book that we will be discussing today.	他们是Emily Erickson教授的书的中文译本的出版商,我们今天将讨论这本书。
1:03	And they've also generously provided five books as a reward for questions from the audience that were pre selected beforehand.	并且他们还慷慨地提供了五本书,作为对观众事先选题的奖励.
1:11	Based on the caliber of questions.	基于问题口径.
1:12	So thank you to the audience as well for submitting questions and for already engaging in this topic.	因此,感谢大家提出问题并参与讨论这个议题。
1:20	I'm going to introduce our moderator.	介绍主持人.

展开字幕全文（537 条）

序号	英文	中文
1	All right, welcome everybody.	好吧,欢迎大家。
2	My name is Devin Lau and I'm the associate director of Yale Center Beijing, and we are very happy today to host another talk and in our ongoing lectures.	我叫刘德文,我是耶鲁中心北京的副主任,今天我们非常高兴地主持另一场演讲和我们正在进行的讲座。
3	And for those of you that are unfamiliar, Yale Center Beijing is Yale's only university wide center outside of New Haven, that we've hosted over now 100 plus events online featuring different Yale professors spanning everything from astronomy to art histo	而对于你们中不熟悉的人来说,耶鲁北京中心是耶鲁唯一的大学广域中心在纽黑文之外,我们已经主持过100多个在线活动, 由不同耶鲁的教授组成, 包括天文学、艺术史、音乐、生物学, 所以我们的另一位好朋友, Emily Erickson教授今天也加入了我们。
4	And joining us as well as Helen He Yang.	加入我们的还有海伦贺杨
5	So thank you all, and thank you for joining us today for a special book talk that is co hosted by Shanghai People's Publishing House.	所以感谢大家,感谢大家今天同我们一起参加由上海人民出版社联合主办的特别书评会.
6	They're the publisher of the Chinese translation of Professor Emily Erickson's book that we will be discussing today.	他们是Emily Erickson教授的书的中文译本的出版商,我们今天将讨论这本书。
7	And they've also generously provided five books as a reward for questions from the audience that were pre selected beforehand.	并且他们还慷慨地提供了五本书,作为对观众事先选题的奖励.
8	Based on the caliber of questions.	基于问题口径.
9	So thank you to the audience as well for submitting questions and for already engaging in this topic.	因此,感谢大家提出问题并参与讨论这个议题。
10	I'm going to introduce our moderator.	介绍主持人.
11	She obtained her PhD from the Department of Economics at George Mason University and her bachelor's and master's from the Department of Finance at Wuhan University.	她获得了乔治·梅森大学经济系的博士学位,以及武汉大学财政系的学士和硕士学位.
12	Her research is in economic history, and new institutional economics, focusing on the compador system in China's foreign trade in the late 19th and early 20th century, and the dual landowner system in late Qing China.	她的研究领域是经济史,以及新体制经济学,主要研究19世纪末20世纪初中国对外贸易中的协和制度,以及晚清中国的双重地主制度.
13	Her research has been published in China Economic Review, and it brings together theoretical abstractions with historical Chinese institutions, as well as well established theories in new institutional economics.	她的研究发表在"中国经济评论"上,将理论抽象与中国历史机构,以及新体制经济学中已确立的理论汇集在一起.
14	So a fascinating discussion today, I'm sure that'll span time and geography.	今天的讨论很吸引人, 我相信这将跨越时间和地理。
15	And so without further ado, I will turn things over to Haya.	所以,不做进一步的事, 我会把事情交给哈亚。
16	Thank you.	谢谢
17	Thank you for the excellent introduction.	谢谢你的出色介绍
18	Hi, Emily.	嗨,艾米丽。
19	So we are so pleased that we are pleased and happy to have you here at our book event.	因此,我们非常高兴和高兴有你参加我们的书展。
20	And Professor Emily Erickson is the author of this new book, Trade and Nation, How Companies and Politics Reshaped Economic Thought.	而艾蜜莉·埃里克森教授是这本新书的作者,"贸易与民族,公司与政治如何重塑经济思想".
21	And besides this book, Professor Erickson also has two other books that are being translated or having been translated into Chinese.	除此书外,埃里克森教授还有另外两本正在翻译或已经翻译成中文的书籍.
22	So the Chinese audience can read all three books written by Professor Erickson in Chinese.	这样,中国观众就可以阅读艾瑞克森教授用中文写的三本书.
23	And actually, let's start our conversation from a question about the relationship between the three books.	实际上,让我们从关于这三本书之间关系的一个问题开始我们的对话。
24	So, Emily, could you talk about the motivation of this research of this book?	那么,艾米丽,你能谈谈这本书的研究动机吗?
25	The theme of this book is closely related to your earlier books about the rise of the big companies, trade, and the state.	这本书的主题与你之前关于大公司兴起,贸易,以及国家的著作密切相关.
26	So how did your early research inspire the writing of this book?	那么,你的早期研究是如何激励这本书的写作的?
27	How did you build up your research projects as a series of research step by step?	作为一系列研究的一步一步,你是如何积累你的研究项目的?
28	As you know, many Chinese socioeconomic historians have several projects either completed or ongoing that are relatively independent from each other,	如你所知,许多中国社会经济历史学家有好几个项目要么已经完成,要么正在进行中,彼此相对独立,
29	probably because the original sources they use and archives available are separate or the methodologies they use for treating the materials can vary across projects.	这可能是因为他们使用的原始来源和可用的档案是分开的,或者他们用来处理材料的方法可能因项目而异。
30	And the integration of the research projects about various topics seems to be a challenge to some scholars and to even some experienced and mature scholars.	而整合有关各种专题的研究项目,似乎对一些学者,甚至对一些经验丰富,成熟的学者都是挑战.
31	So how did you manage to avoid this problem from the beginning of your career?	那你是怎么从职业生涯开始就避免了这个问题的?
32	I guess this is a question that many Chinese scholars are interested in.	我想这是许多中国学者感兴趣的问题.
33	First, let me just thank everyone for coming.	首先,让我感谢大家前来。
34	So it's really wonderful to see so many not faces but windows.	所以看到这么多人不是脸,而是窗户,真是太棒了。
35	So that's it's really excellent.	所以,这是真的非常好。
36	And I really appreciate the interest in the book.	我真的很感谢大家对这本书的兴趣。
37	And I so appreciate you coming, Helen, and serving as interlocutors.	我非常感谢你来,海伦, 作为对话者。
38	Your work is so fascinating and it's really great to have this opportunity to meet you.	你的工作太迷人了很高兴有机会见到你
39	And also, I want to thank the Yale Center for Beijing for supporting my work and Devin and his great efforts to bridge this connection between the two settings.	我还要感谢耶鲁北京中心支持我的工作和德文,以及他为连接这两个环境所作的巨大努力。
40	It's really important and great.	这是真正重要和伟大的。
41	So this is a great question.	所以,这是一个伟大的问题。
42	I can't actually say that I can really take credit for having plotted this out as a path for my research since my dissertation work.	我实在不能说,我确实可以承认, 自从我的论文工作以来, 我策划了这个作为我研究的一个途径。
43	So it did evolve over time.	因此,它确实随着时间演变。
44	So just for the audience, the book here, Trade and Nation, is about how merchants in England in the 17th century tried to persuade the government to take certain sort of policy actions.	所以对于观众来说,这里的书"贸易与民族"是17世纪英国商人如何试图说服政府采取某种政策行动的.
45	And in the process, they began writing public pamphlets and books and sort of constructing different theories about trade.	在这个过程中,他们开始写公开的小册子和书籍, 并构建关于贸易的不同理论。
46	And this actually laid the groundwork for the development of classical economics over time.	这为古典经济学的发展奠定了基础。
47	So the connection to my previous book, which was about the English East India Company, it's a kind of expansion of its trade network, is that the principles and owners and all of these people, I noticed when I was researching the company,	我之前的书是关于英国东印度公司, 和它贸易网络的扩展, 有关联的是原则、所有者和所有这些人, 我在研究公司时注意到,
48	this strange sort of what seemed to me then to be kind of a coincidence, which was that so many of the people that were involved in the English East India Company were also somehow writing these really important seminal texts on mercantilist economics kin	这种奇怪的东西在我看来是种巧合, 也就是说,参与英国东印度公司的人中, 那么多人也不知何故地在重商主义经济学那种理论上写了这些非常重要的重要文章。
49	I mean, it's a little bit of an anachronistic way of referring to it, but we can call it that at this point.	我的意思是,这是一个有点不合时宜的提法, 但我们可以这样称呼它。
50	So they're writing stuff about commerce that was fairly influential.	所以,他们写的东西商业是相当有影响力的。
51	And the more I kind of dug into it, the more it was like a strange phenomenon where everyone that was writing these early mercantilist texts seemed to have some kind of affiliation with the companies.	我越深入地研究它, 越像一个奇怪的现象, 每个人都写这些早期重商主义的文字似乎和公司有某种关系。
52	I mean, and it goes for, you know, like Mill worked for the English East India Company.	就像米尔在英国东印度公司工作
53	So it goes for quite a bit, even past the kind of 17th century, which was my area of focus.	因此,它有相当一部分, 甚至超过17世纪, 那是我的焦点领域。
54	So I, you know, I just kind of started to think about what it was and that that made this that made this link keep occurring.	所以我,你知道,我刚刚开始思考它是什么, 它使得这个使得这个链接不断发生。
55	And I actually thought it was going to be the overseas trade.	我其实以为是海外贸易
56	It's like the logistical problem of handling overseas trade.	这就像处理海外贸易的后勤问题.
57	But in fact, that didn't actually turn out to be the case.	但事实上,事实并非如此。
58	It was instead more about the political situation of merchants in England at the time.	取而代之的是当时英国商人的政治局势.
59	So it's it naturally evolved, I would say, out of the other project.	也就是说,它自然而然地从另一个项目中演化出来。
60	It's the early modern, you know, I would say is a fertile area of inquiry across all nations.	这是早期的现代,你知道的, 我想说是一个肥沃的调查地区在所有国家。
61	You know, there's these moments where that's formative for institutions that then shape the trajectory of things for centuries to come.	你知道,有这样的时刻, 这对一些机构来说是成形的, 它们决定了未来几个世纪事物的轨迹。
62	So there's a lot of things to explore there.	所以那里有很多东西需要探索.
63	But I, I would say what allowed me, I think, to make this connection was to be flexible also about the kind of the methods and the archival resource that I draw from.	但我要说,我认为是什么允许我建立这种联系的,也是关于我从中汲取的方法和档案资源的灵活办法。
64	So if I have an interesting question, my goal is not to let the method sort of determine the question that I'm asking, but to go at the question with as many different methods as I can, you know, deploy to kind of uncover what's going on.	因此,如果我有一个有趣的问题, 我的目标不是让方法来决定我所问的问题, 而是用尽可能多的不同的方法去研究这个问题, 你知道, 用来发现正在发生的事情。
65	And if I don't feel absolutely comfortable with a method, then, you know, I look for someone, a co-author, someone to work with.	如果我对一个方法不感到完全自在, 那么,你知道,我寻找一个人, 一个共同的作者, 一个合作的人。
66	But I think that approach then, and I generally like multi-method approaches, gives me that kind of freedom to explore related territory that I would otherwise have to dive out somewhere, somewhere else.	但我认为这样的做法,而且我通常喜欢多方法的做法, 给了我那种探索相关领土的自由, 否则我不得不潜出其他地方。
67	Also then, looking for the archival materials that are going to answer the question, rather than, you know, going to the archive, finding an interesting data source, and then kind of formulating a question around that.	同时,寻找将回答这个问题的档案材料, 而不是,你知道的,去档案, 找到一个有趣的数据来源, 然后提出一个问题。
68	Although I know it's, you know, I mean, I have to also say that it's relatively easier if there's a lot of historical material there to work with, and that sometimes, you know, it's not quite as possible to have that sort of a freedom if the archival mate	虽然我知道,你知道,我的意思是,我也不得不说,如果有很多历史材料可以用来工作,那就比较容易了。有时候,你知道,如果档案材料更加稀缺,那就很难有这种自由了。
69	Yeah.	对
70	Yeah, you did master a variety of methodologies in your, in the books.	是的,你确实掌握了各种方法在你的,在书中。
71	Yes, we can see that.	是的,我们可以看到这一点。
72	The second question is about the merchant-state relationship.	第二个问题是商国关系.
73	And this question has been a focus in Chinese business history and economic history as well.	而这个问题也是中国商业史和经济史上的焦点.
74	It's many people, many scholars, historians, as well as public intellectuals have been joining debates about merchant-state relationship.	许多人,许多学者,历史学家,以及公共知识分子都加入了商国关系的辩论.
75	So in your book, to describe the relationship between the state and commercial actors, you use the word courtship, and this is a romantic word.	所以在你的书里,为了描述国家与商业演员之间的关系, 你用的是求爱这个词, 这是一个浪漫的词。
76	It's an interesting word with a romantic tone, and actually that was a bit surprising to me.	这是一个有趣的词用浪漫的语气, 实际上,这让我有点惊讶。
77	And I guess many Chinese audience might find this romantic tone a bit surprising, just like me.	我想许多中国观众会觉得这种浪漫的语气有点让人惊讶,就像我一样.
78	So how did you decide to define the relationship in such a romantic tone?	那么,你是如何决定定义的关系以这样一个浪漫的语气?
79	And could the British-state merchant relationship always be framed in the formation or evolution of a courtship, or was it a special phenomenon only at certain phases of history?	而英国-国家商贸关系是否总是被设定在求偶的形成或演化之中,还是只有在历史的某些阶段才是一种特殊现象?
80	Well, so I'm guessing that the reason why it's surprising is that kind of the romantic, but even maybe the positive connotation that comes along with the notion of courtship, where the relationship is often seen as much more negative and antagonistic over	所以我猜这令人惊讶的原因就是那种浪漫, 但也许还有与求爱概念相伴而来的积极内涵, 关系常常被看成是消极和对立的。
81	And that, I think that makes a lot of sense, you know, even in the English context.	而且,我认为这有很多道理, 你知道,即使在英语背景。
82	And in fact, I wish I knew more, and I'd love to have a conversation more about the Chinese context.	实际上,我希望我知道更多,我更愿意多谈谈中国的背景.
83	But what I was trying to evoke with courtship was there was sort of a dual sense of one, that this was a dynamic ongoing process of kind of negotiation.	但我想用求爱来引起人们的共鸣, 有一种双重的感觉, 即这是一个活跃的不断的谈判过程。
84	And I thought that captured it as sort of a process of give and take.	我认为,这捕捉到它是一种给予和接受的过程。
85	And also the idea of the courtship being, you know, evocative of the court itself.	还有求爱的想法是,你知道, 鼓动法庭本身。
86	So the court, the state that it takes place, and the residents of the sovereign, that idea of court, courtly manners, because it was this state merchant negotiation that was in some ways taking place in the court.	于是朝廷,朝廷之州,及主权之居民,即有朝廷之念,朝廷之礼,因此州商谈判,在朝廷中以某种方式发生.
87	And I think a lot of the English sovereign at that time is setting the sort of guidelines for it.	我认为当时很多英国君主正在为它制定准则。
88	But, so those, those were the reasons that I sort of settled on it.	但是,所以,这些, 这些原因,我有点决定了。
89	I did actually think about it quite a lot.	我确实考虑了很多
90	And I was, I was trying to think about how to really express the sort of central idea in a brief way.	我试图思考如何用一个简短的方式表达那种中心思想。
91	So maybe, I mean, it's possible it wasn't quite as successful as I hoped.	所以也许,我的意思是,它可能没有我所希望的那么成功。
92	I thought I was looking at, I looked at a number of different books,	我以为我在看, 我看了一些不同的书,
93	books that were, I thought were really powerful academic books, and to see, you know, how they kind of got their story across right away.	这本书,我认为是真正强大的学术书籍, 和看看,你知道, 他们是如何得到他们的故事立刻。
94	My favorite one was Paul Starr's The Social Transformation of American Medicine.	我最喜欢的是保罗·斯塔尔的《美国医学的社会转型》。
95	He has this amazing line at the very beginning.	他一开始有一句惊人的台词
96	The dream of reason did not take into account, or did not take power into account.	理性的梦想没有考虑,或者没有考虑权力.
97	And it's, it sort of sets this, this narrative between the protagonist, you know, the dream and the antagonist reason.	它在主角之间的叙述梦境和对立的原因之间
98	And, and I wanted to kind of capture and condense things into something that, some kind of a phrase that captured the large, like had set kind of a narrative that people could dig into.	我想捕捉到一些东西, 把它们凝结成某种东西, 某种能捕捉到大块的词句, 就像设定了一种人们可以探索的叙事。
99	So that was what I was trying to do, in any case, in using that, that term and what I had in the back of my mind.	所以,这就是我试图做的, 无论如何,在使用这个词, 和我在脑后。
100	Yeah.	对
101	And in most of Chinese history works, the Chinese state merchants relationship has been depicted as a love-hate relationship.	而在大多数中国历史作品中,中国国商关系被描绘为爱恨关系.
102	Sometimes they can be friendly with each other, very close, even perhaps sweet.	有时他们可以互相友善,非常亲近,甚至也许甜美.
103	But sometimes it's just a really bad, messy relationship.	但有时这只是一个非常糟糕,混乱的关系.
104	And yeah, and there are many, many interesting historical works about that, like the salt merchants and the state, and the merchant groups.	对,有很多有趣的历史作品, 比如盐商和国家,以及商团。
105	If you are interested, I can recommend some books, Chinese history books to you about this topic.	如果你感兴趣,我可以向你们推荐一些书籍,中国历史书籍,关于这个话题.
106	Yeah, absolutely.	当然
107	Absolutely.	当然
108	That would be great.	这将是伟大的。
109	Okay.	摆
110	It's, I mean, also, there were definitely negative aspects to the relationship between the merchants and the state in England, but in the 17th century, it was, you know, I think I would say is, it certainly wasn't in any way violent or confrontational.	英国的商人和国家的关系肯定有负面的一面但是在17世纪,我想我可以说绝对不是暴力或对抗
111	It was, there was a lot of support that was constructed from, you know, I mean, these were the companies were chartered by the crown, so they were given royal privileges to certain areas of trade.	是,有很多支持是从,你知道,我的意思是,这些公司是皇冠租借的, 所以他们得到了皇家特权某些贸易领域。
112	And, you know, so there was quite a lot of cooperation that occurred in this era in particular, where they're kind of relying, the states relying on them for certain actions that would otherwise kind of be in the domain of the state, like negotiating with	所以在这个时代, 有很多的合作, 特别是在他们所依赖的地方, 那些依靠他们来从事某些行动的国家, 这些行动本来会属于国家的范畴, 就像与外国的谈判。
113	And then the merchants are relying on the state for, you know, enforcing monopoly privileges.	然后商人们依靠国家来强制实行垄断特权。
114	And so it's not that much of a negative.	所以,它不是太多的负面。
115	So in that sense, I don't think courtship was too much of a stretch.	因此,从这个意义上讲,我不认为求爱太过分了.
116	So, so the next question is about the multiple roles of merchants.	所以,接下来的问题是商人的多重角色.
117	So you broke down the members of trade committees and councils, and the author's network belonging to each occupational categories.	因此你打破了贸易委员会和理事会的成员, 和作者的网络属于每个职业类别。
118	So there were categories of noble, gentry, clergy, military, professional and merchant.	因此有贵族,护工,神职人员,军事,专业和商人等类别.
119	So did the categories have clear-cut differences?	因此,这些类别有明显的差别吗?
120	Could some members in one category have overlapping roles in the other categories?	某一类的一些成员在其他类别中是否可以发挥重叠的作用?
121	And did merchants have multiple identities or identity shift in societal changes?	商人在社会变革中是否有多重身份或身份转变?
122	还有一本名为威廉·帕特森(William Patterson, The Merchant Statesman)的书
123	I don't know if you are aware of this book.	我不知道你是否知道这本书
124	全称是威廉·帕特森(William Patterson, The Merchant Statesman),英国银行创始人,他的人生与审判.
125	And this book was written by Zach Spannister in 1858.	而这本书是由扎克·斯潘尼斯特(Zach Spannister)于1858年写的.
126	Patterson drafted a proposals and reasons for constituting a council of trade.	帕特森起草了组建贸易理事会的建议和理由.
127	It seems that these prominent figures whose identity crossed the border between politics and trade could fill the gap and facilitated the communications between politicians and merchants.	这些身份跨越政治和贸易边界的知名人士似乎可以填补这一空白,促进政治家和商人之间的沟通。
128	So that's related to the earlier questions.	所以这和以前的问题有关。
129	So did the categories you generated in the book have clear-cut differences?	那么,你们在书中创造的类别是否有明显的区别?
130	So the categories that, you know, there's the coding process, right?	所以,你知道,有编码过程,对不对?
131	And then there's the categories as they exist in the real world.	然后是现实世界中存在的类别。
132	So the way that I coded the categories, there was no overlap.	因此,我编码分类的方法,没有重叠之处。
133	So in a sense, they're hierarchical nobles and gentry took precedence over other categories.	因此,从某种意义上说,他们是等级贵族,而Gentry凌驾于其他类别之上.
134	So if someone also wasn't noble and invested in a company, they would still be categorized as a noble in the coding scheme.	所以,如果有人也不是贵族,而是在一家公司投资,那么在编码计划中,他们仍然会被归类为贵族.
135	And I think that that's reflective of the way that the people would have perceived themselves in the world as well.	我认为,这反映了人们在世界上对自己的看法。
136	So the merchants is potentially most, I mean, of these, the category that was actually the most diverse and kind of like residual was the professionals category.	所以,商人们最有可能,我的意思是, 这些类别, 实际上是最多样化的类别, 类似于剩余类别是专业人员类别。
137	That's the one that is not, I don't think, entirely reflective of how people thought of themselves in the social world of 17th century Britain.	这是没有,我不认为, 完全反映人们如何思考自己在17世纪的英国社会世界。
138	That, you know, there's lawyers, there's writers, there's one person who is a calligrapher, you know, that's kind of like the grab bag of these different categories.	你知道,有律师,有作家,有个人是书法家, 你知道,这有点像这些不同类别的抓包。
139	But the other, it was possible, of course, there's some instances in which merchants received titles, you know, accumulated enough wealth that they were able to reach this level in which they were granted some kind of sign of nobility or married into nobl	但另一种情况,当然是有可能的, 在某些情况下,商人获得头衔, 你知道,积累了足够多的财富, 他们能够达到这个水平, 在这种水平上,他们被授予某种贵族的标志或者嫁给贵族家庭。
140	But I would say it's not that common.	但我会说这不太常见。
141	And, you know, so Patterson, serving on the Council or Committee of Trade, now that would have not put him automatically into, so that's a statesman, but merchants did serve on Councils of Trade.	而且,你知道,所以帕特森,在理事会或贸易委员会任职, 现在这不会让他自动进入, 所以这是一个政治家, 但是商人确实在贸易委员会任职。
142	So I have the data on that also in the book.	书里也有这方面的数据。
143	And they were, however, minority presidents in these Councils of Trade, which were entirely dominated by the landed elite, who actually, you know, didn't really know very much about trade, but were perfectly happy to kind of like tell the merchants what t	然而,他们是这些贸易理事会中的少数主席, 这些理事会完全由登陆的精英们主导, 他们实际上,你知道,并不非常了解贸易, 但是他们非常乐意告诉商人他们应该做什么。
144	So in the coding scheme again, you know, this would not be enough.	所以在编码计划中,你知道,这还不够。
145	So serving on a Council or Committee of Trade, it does incorporate the merchants into the offices of state, into the process of governance, but it certainly doesn't make them a noble, right?	因此,在理事会或贸易委员会任职,它确实将商人纳入国家办公室,纳入治理进程,但它肯定不会使他们成为贵族,对吧?
146	It doesn't make them gentry, according to the social status rules of Britain at that time.	根据当时英国的社会地位规则,这并不能使他们成为gentry.
147	That's an entirely different thing.	这是完全不同的事情。
148	But it does give them a voice in government, but it never gave them a majority voice in government.	但是,这确实给了他们在政府中的声音,但它从来没有给他们在政府中的多数声音.
149	And the merchants themselves always complained that they weren't being listened to on the Council, that they didn't have enough merchants, that there should be a merchant council, not a council that was led by	而商人们自己也总是抱怨说,他们并没有被议会所听从,他们没有足够的商人,应该有一个商人议会,而不是一个由他们领导的议会.
150	by the noble or gentry, and that they just didn't have the respect of the government or an adequate voice in the process, even though they do appear.	他们只是没有受到政府的尊重也没有在过程中有足够的发言权, 即使他们确实出现。
151	And from time to time, someone becomes more influential.	而偶尔有人会变得更有影响力.
152	Yeah, I was curious about that question, because in certain phases in Chinese history, there were systematic occupation or identity shift caused by economic reforms.	是的,我很想知道这个问题, 因为在中国历史的某些阶段, 经济改革造成了系统性的占领或身份转变。
153	So for example, the transition from central planning system to the market system gave rise to many merchants who used to work for the government or state-owned enterprises.	因此,例如,从中央计划体系向市场体系的过渡,产生了许多曾经为政府或国有企业工作的商人.
154	So their identities were changed from public servants to merchants.	所以他们的身份从公务员变为商人.
155	And also in the Republican period, in the early 20th century, also there were many identity shifts or multiple identities of the same person as government official and merchant.	而在共和党时期,在20世纪初,也出现了许多身份转变或同一人作为政府官员和商人的多重身份.
156	So from the Chinese perspective, so I propose that question, but we know relatively little background of that period, so I'm just curious.	所以从中国的角度来说,我提出这个问题,但我们对那个时期的背景了解比较少,所以我很好奇.
157	Yeah, thanks for that.	是啊,谢谢你。
158	I mean, the state is so much more powerful in the 20th century, right?	在20世纪,国家更强大,对吧?
159	I mean, in China, the state is very powerful.	我的意思是,在中国,国家是非常强大的。
160	And just then any developed nation state is going to be capable of large scale shifts that the early modern, you know, I mean, we're talking about the tutors and the stewards.	就在那时,任何发达的民族国家都将有能力进行大规模转变, 早期的现代,你知道的,我的意思是,我们谈论的是辅导员和管家。
161	Like these were not developed administrative states that were capable of like on their own creating large scale shifts and social organization.	象这些不是发达的行政州一样,它们能够独自创造大规模的转变和社会组织。
162	You know, I mean, it's like what they can accomplish is definitely limited.	你知道,我的意思是,这就像他们能够做的绝对是有限的。
163	So, you know, some things are changing slowly there, you know, merchants are making more money and therefore like sometimes can attain higher status, but is a very incremental process.	所以,你知道,有些事情正在慢慢地改变, 你知道,商人正在赚更多的钱, 因此,有时候可以达到更高的地位, 但是一个非常渐进的过程。
164	There are, there's not this kind of centralized planning and, you know, actual ability to follow through on the kinds of changes that our organization implementation of the state might try to undertake.	有,没有这样的集中规划, 和,你知道, 实际的能力跟踪各种变化, 我们的组织实施国家可能试图进行。
165	It's just, it's not really happening the same way that it could, it conceivably happens in the 20th century, 21st.	这只是,它并没有真正发生像它可以, 它可以想象发生在20世纪,21世纪。
166	Sure.	当然
167	Yeah.	对
168	Okay.	摆
169	Yeah.	对
170	The next question is about the method methodology.	下一个问题是方法方法。
171	You often use in a book, graphs and the social network analysis.	你经常在一本书、图表和社交网络分析中使用。
172	So you have measured solid skills of network analysis.	因此,你测量了网络分析的坚实技能。
173	I also saw your tweets this morning and I found some frontier research resources about social network analysis.	我也看到了你今天早上的微博我发现了一些关于社交网络分析的前沿研究资源
174	So you seem to have been, you know, you have been very enthusiastic in promoting that methodology.	所以,你似乎,你知道, 你一直非常热衷于推广这种方法。
175	And I think many Chinese scholars, both sociologists and historians are interested in social network analysis too.	我认为许多中国学者,社会学家和历史学家,也对社会网络分析感兴趣.
176	So in your book, Between Monopoly and Free Trade, the network visualization of the English companies Eastern trade is very impressive.	因此,在你的书《垄断与自由贸易》中, 英国公司东方贸易的网络视觉化非常令人印象深刻。
177	And the idea to have a column that represents the, presents the fact of the matched voyages removed from the network.	并设想有一个柱子代表, 呈现匹配的航行的事实从网络。
178	This idea is fantastic.	这想法太棒了。
179	And I've been using your book for teaching in my business, for my business history course.	我用你的书来教授我的事业和我的事业史课程
180	And each time I mentioned, I talk about that chapter on private trade in your book.	每次我提到的时候,我都会在你的书里谈到关于私人贸易的一章。
181	I'm very excited.	我非常兴奋
182	I'm very excited to, to introduce that methodology.	我非常兴奋,介绍这个方法。
183	So it's a rigorously designed method that isolates the fact of malfeasance in private trading through a randomized matching mechanism.	因此,这是一种严格设计的方法,通过随机匹配机制,将私人交易中的渎职事实隔离开来.
184	So, you know, met randomized matching is a very popular econometric methodology.	所以,你知道,遇到随机匹配是一种非常流行的经济计量方法。
185	So economists are especially interested in that.	经济学家对此特别感兴趣。
186	But you extends that methodology of randomized matching into social network graph analysis.	但你把随机匹配的方法扩展为社会网络图表分析。
187	I don't know if my understanding is correct, but I think, I do think this is a very original contribution.	我不知道我的理解是否正确,但我认为,我认为这是一个非常有创意的贡献.
188	Each time I talk about this, I get very excited.	每次我谈论这个,我都会非常兴奋。
189	And I show that to my students, the three columns, how the difference was generated.	我向学生们展示,三个栏目, 如何产生差异。
190	So could you briefly introduce the development of the methodologies of social network analysis in social economic history research in the United States?	因此,你能否简要地介绍一下美国社会经济历史研究中社会网络分析方法的发展?
191	In recent decades, there has been some interesting Chinese history research projects that apply social network analysis to lineage relationships, networks of scholar, scholarly officials and bureaucrats.	近几十年来,中国有一些有趣的历史研究项目,将社会网络分析应用于世系关系,学者网络,学术官员和官僚.
192	So I believe Chinese historians are also very interested in what is happening in the United States about this methodology.	所以我相信,中国历史学家也对美国在这种方法上发生的事情也非常感兴趣.
193	Well, first, thank you so much.	首先,谢谢你
194	And it's so nice of you to notice, to notice that.	很高兴你注意到这一点
195	And it was, I, it is, it is hard to combine, you know, networks is a little bit more descriptive.	(笑声) 我,我,我,我,我,我,我,我,我,我,我,我,我,我,我,我,我,我,我,我,我,我,我,我,我,我,我,我,我,我,我,我,我,我,我,我,我,我,我,我,我,我,我,我,我,我,我,我,我,我,我,我,我,我,我,我,我,我,我,我,我,我,我,我,
196	It's all about interdependency.	皆是互为依止.
197	And so it's hard to think about kind of counterfactual models and treatment control in and combine it with a method.	所以很难考虑一种反事实模型和治疗控制把它和一种方法结合起来。
198	So I really appreciate so that it did take a lot of thought to come up with that idea.	因此,我非常感激,所以我确实需要很多思考才能提出这个想法。
199	And I also have to give credit to the original paper, Peter Behrman and I came up with that together because we co authored a paper on that.	我还得赞扬原论文,彼得·贝赫尔曼和我共同提出了这个观点,因为我们共同撰写了一篇关于这个观点的论文。
200	And also, the other person that I want to give credit to, although I don't, I didn't actually talk about the problem with him, but I was learning statistical methods from him at the time is Michael Sobel, who's quite	另外,我想表扬的另外一个人, 虽然我没有,我其实没有谈到他的问题, 但我正在向他学习统计方法当时的迈克尔·索贝尔,
201	a good statistician, especially for sociologists, I would say, and very much involved in causal modeling.	一个很好的统计学家,特别是社会学家, 我想说, 并且非常参与因果建模。
202	And so I think he created context in which I was thinking about matching a lot.	所以我觉得他创造了一些背景, 我当时在考虑匹配。
203	So that, I wish more people would do, I actually, I do think that that's a really good way of thinking about	所以,我希望更多的人会做, 实际上,我确实认为这是一个非常好的思考方式
204	And that it can be in court.	且道能当庭.
205	It's not that hard.	亦不难.
206	It's just kind of like a bootstrapping method and that more people can use it in network modeling and I wish it had to become or it had been picked up a little bit more because I think it is valuable.	这就像一种拖鞋方法, 更多的人可以使用它在网络模型, 我希望它必须成为或者它被拿了多一点,因为我认为它是有价值的。
207	So I really appreciate that.	所以,我真的很感谢。
208	So with networks and networks, specifically in historical settings or economic settings.	因此与网络和网络,特别是在历史环境或经济环境中.
209	I mean, what's happened, at least in the United States, we've gone through these different stages where I mean when I was in graduate school, I was taking social network analysis with	我的意思是,发生了什么事,至少在美国, 我们已经经历了这些不同阶段,
210	Harrison White和Duncan Watts, Peter Behrman, 而且,没有人知道,这真的很有趣。
211	It was while I was in graduate school, actually, that people began to understand what a social network was.	当我在研究生院的时候, 人们开始明白什么是社交网络。
212	So when I first would tell, you know, people say, what are you studying?	所以,当我第一次告诉, 你知道,人们说, 你在学习什么?
213	I said, well, I'm studying social networks.	我说我在研究社交网络
214	And they had to have no idea.	他们不得不不知道。
215	And then the movie with Mark Zuckerberg, you know, the social network came out.	然后和马克·扎克伯格的电影,你知道,社交网络出现了.
216	And then after that, everyone was like, oh, social networks, that's fascinating.	然后,每个人都喜欢,哦,社交网络, 这是令人着迷的。
217	And so it was really interesting to kind of live through that transformation.	经历这种转变非常有趣。
218	But we went from, I would say, social network analysis to network science.	但我们从社交网络分析到网络科学。
219	It is kind of dominated by the development of clustering algorithms, Mark Newman, physicists doing work on different kinds of measures.	它以集群算法的发展为主,马克·纽曼(Mark Newman),物理学家从事不同种类的测量工作.
220	And then now I would say everything's kind of like, there was a brief moment when it was computational social science, but now it's all data science.	现在我想说,一切都有点像, 有一个短暂的瞬间,它就是计算社会科学, 但是现在它都是数据科学。
221	And so everything in network science kind of folded under the data science umbrella, which is, you know, fair, I guess.	所以网络科学中的一切都放在数据科学的伞下, 这,你知道,是公平的,我想。
222	I hope that social network science, I mean, in some ways, data science is sort of just like statistics with larger data sets and more computational power.	我希望社会网络科学, 我的意思是,在某些方面, 数据科学就像统计一样, 拥有更大的数据集和更大的计算能力。
223	So I hope that the unique benefits of social and contributions of social network analysis don't get lost in this transformation.	因此,我希望社会和社会网络分析的独特利益和贡献不会在这个转变中消失.
224	It was, I mean, in terms of the advantages of social network analysis and historical work, that's something that I think at Columbia University in particular, there was a very strong kind of institutional commitment in the sociology department to developi	我的意思是,从社会网络分析和历史工作的好处来看, 我认为哥伦比亚大学, 社会学系有很强的体制性承诺, 对历史进程采取社会网络方法。
225	And that was a combination of Chuck Tilley had this relational perspective, although he didn't do that much actual social network analysis, but he was very close also with Harrison White, who kind of brought social network analysis into the social science	这是查克·蒂利的结合,他有这种关系视角, 尽管他没有做那么多实际的社会网络分析, 但他也非常接近哈里森·怀特, 他把社会网络分析带入了社会科学, 做了很多早期的数学模型, 很有影响力。
226	And then Peter Behrman doing the historical network analysis, which he did on the English Civil War in his first book.	之后彼得·贝赫尔曼(Peter Behrman)做了历史网络分析,他在第一本书中对英国内战进行了分析.
227	And then you had David Stark, who was doing the more kind of economic sociology, social network analysis, but often looking at the post-Soviet eastern block area and sort of capitalist reintegration, this kind of thing.	然后有大卫·史塔克, 他正在做更多的经济社会学,社会网络分析, 但经常看后苏联东部街区和类似资本主义的再融合,这类事情。
228	So that kind of morphed then into network science and the historical aspect, I think, didn't take off in quite the way that it was hoped in the sort of late 90s, early 2000s.	因此,这种转变后来变成了网络科学和历史方面, 我想,并没有像人们所希望的那样, 在90年代末,2000年代初。
229	And it's still, it's something that I think, yes, UC Berkeley has a very strong sociology department and they're also, I mean, they've been like number one for the past 20 years or something like that, maybe longer.	但它仍然是,我认为,是的,UC伯克利有一个非常强大的社会学部门, 而且,我的意思是,在过去20年里,他们一直像头号一样,或者像那样,也许更长。
230	I would say they don't, so they don't do this particular combination of social network analysis and comparative historical work that was sort of not entirely unique, but not widely adopted outside of Columbia.	我想说他们不这样做,所以他们不做社会网络分析和比较历史工作两者的结合有点不完全是独一无二的, 但并不是在哥伦比亚以外被广泛采用。
231	Maybe University of Chicago had a little bit more of that combination of networks and history.	也许芝加哥大学有一点点结合网络和历史。
232	UC Berkeley has other amazing strengths.	UC伯克利还有其他惊人的优势.
233	And there is one, and Heather Habermann isn't there now, and she does historical work, archival work, and combines it with network methods and has done some great work on charities and thrifts and things like that.	还有一个,希瑟·哈伯曼现在不在, 她做了历史工作,档案工作, 并将其与网络方法相结合, 在慈善机构和节俭方面做了一些伟大的工作。
234	So it's, I think it's really important in terms of understanding historical processes, because network structure has an independent effect on social outcomes.	因此,我认为这在理解历史过程方面确实很重要,因为网络结构对社会结果有独立的影响.
235	You know, you can have all the characteristics of people can be right for something like, you know, revolution or collective action, but if they're not connected in the right way, then the outcome is different.	你知道,你可以拥有所有的人的特征能够正确的东西, 比如,你知道,革命或集体行动, 但如果他们没有以正确的方式联系起来, 那么结果就不一样了。
236	So this, I would say is this for the emergence of state power, consolidation of notions of race, ethnicity, social cohesion, economic transformation, economic development, all of these things, which, you know, are processes that we can like or not like, b	所以,我想说,这是为了国家权力的出现, 种族,民族,社会凝聚,经济转型,经济发展的观念的巩固, 所有这些事情,你知道,都是我们可以喜欢或不喜欢的过程, 但是我们想了解。
237	All of those are independently affected by social network structure.	所有这些人都受到社会网络结构的独立影响。
238	So my argument, my pitch is usually, if we don't at least incorporate social network structure into our analysis, then we're missing, you know, a really important sort of causal pathway that could be really	因此,我的论点是,我的投注通常, 如果我们不至少把社交网络结构纳入我们的分析, 那么,我们缺少,你知道, 一个非常重要的种类的因果关系路径,可以真正
239	confusing our understanding of what's going on if we don't take it into account.	如果我们不考虑一下,我们的理解会很混乱。
240	So it may not cause everything, it may not be the primary factor, but I think if we don't at least consider it as a hypothesis, then we're potentially really misunderstanding the causes and consequences of different moments in history.	所以它也许不会引起一切,它可能不是首要因素,但是我认为如果我们不至少把它当作一个假设,那么我们可能真的误解了历史上不同时刻的原因和后果.
241	Yeah, and actually a very particular, very special thing about Chinese sociology is that I think almost all sociologists can accept social network, this concept easily because in Chinese society, guanxi, connections, connection is so important.	是的,事实上,关于中国社会学的一个非常特别的事情是, 我认为几乎所有的社会学家都能接受社会网络, 这个概念很容易, 因为在中国社会, guanxi, 连接,连接是如此重要。
242	Everybody knows that.	每个人都知道这一点。
243	So I think that makes a good foundation for accepting the concept of social network.	我认为这为接受社会网络的概念奠定了良好的基础。
244	But the formal methodologies of social network analysis still needs to be introduced to historians systematically.	但是,社会网络分析的正式方法仍然需要系统地引入历史学家.
245	I think there have been some interesting books and interesting works done by Chinese sociologists, but in social economic history, it's still in the early trial stage, I would say.	我想中国社会学家们已经做了一些有趣的著作和有趣的著作,但是在社会经济史上,它仍然处于早期的试验阶段,我想说.
246	Yeah, so yes, I hope I can help the experts in this field or the experts who like to use this methodology to know more about this.	是的,所以是的,我希望我可以帮助这个领域的专家或那些喜欢使用这种方法的专家更多地了解这一点。
247	Maybe after our conversation, there will be some posts to introduce this methodology to social economic historians.	也许在我们谈话之后,会有一些文章向社会经济史学家介绍这种方法.
248	Yeah, there are a lot of historical scenarios and events that are applicable for this methodology.	是的,有很多历史情景和事件适用于这种方法。
249	Yeah, okay.	是啊,没关系。
250	Absolutely, absolutely.	当然,绝对的。
251	Okay, yeah.	好吧,没错。
252	And the next question is about the transformation of political economy in the early modern era.	而下一个问题则是关于早期现代政治经济的转变.
253	And so your book recognizes the importance of merchant authorship to the growth of the English economic literature.	因此你的书承认了商家著作权对于英国经济文献发展的重要性.
254	So in persuading the political elites to adopt policies that benefited not only the tradesmen, but also the nation as a whole, the merchants employed abstract concepts and neutral and scientific investigation to interpret the real insights they obtained f	因此,在说服政治精英采取不仅有利于商人,而且有利于整个国家的政策时,商人采用了抽象的概念和中立的科学调查来解释他们从商业事务中获得的真正见解.
255	So I wonder how the merchants obtained the knowledge and skills required for scientific investigations and abstract conceptualizations.	所以我想知道商人们是如何获得科学调查和抽象概念化所需的知识和技能的.
256	How did they master these methodologies?	他们是如何掌握这些方法的?
257	Well, so, I mean, this is a really interesting question because, you know, the level of knowledge and expertise that is required for economic analysis at this point is very high, right?	那么,我的意思是,这是一个非常有趣的问题, 因为,你知道,现在经济分析所需要的知识和专长水平非常高,对吧?
258	So, you know, I mean, training in economics departments.	所以,你知道,我的意思是, 在经济学部门的培训。
259	I'm always jealous as a sociologist, in fact, because I think the training in economics departments is excellent, you know, but in the 17th century, the level of expertise that we're talking about was something that was not quite as hard to come by, right	作为一名社会学家,我总是嫉妒因为我认为在经济学系的训练是非常好的, 你知道,但是在17世纪, 我们谈论的专业知识水平并不是那么难通过,对吧?
260	So in terms of what the merchants are learning, the skills and knowledge for scientific analysis, if we're thinking, you know, this is in and maybe it was different in China, it could be very, very different.	所以从商人们所学的,科学分析的技巧和知识来看, 如果我们在思考, 你知道,这是在中国,也许在中国是不同的, 它可能是非常,非常不同的。
261	But in the, if William, this is the era in which William Petty introduced political arithmetic.	但在当时,如果威廉,这是威廉·佩蒂引入政治算术的时代.
262	And so the big innovation there, you know, was the average, like that, you know, so it's not like the calculating the average is not that difficult, certainly not that difficult for merchants that are actually engaged in tabulation on a regular basis in t	所以那里最大的创新是平均的, 就像那样的,所以计算平均不是那么难的, 对那些在商业追求中经常进行列表的商人来说, 肯定也不是那么难的。
263	So I mean, this is one of the things that's kind of interesting is, it's not that these skills existed in academics, there was no Department of Economics, there was not even a Department of Political Economy at that point.	我的意思是,这是有趣的事情之一, 并不是说这些技能存在于学术界, 没有经济学系, 当时甚至没有一个政治经济学系。
264	It was actually that the merchants were using skills that they learned in their trade and then incorporating it into this discourse.	实际上,商人是在利用他们在贸易中学到的技能,然后将其纳入这一论述。
265	And then, you know, eventually that then migrated into the way that academics did the work.	然后,你知道的,最终, 迁移到学者的工作方式。
266	So the merchants, they had certainly more skills in arithmetic and, you know, the use of statistics, early use of statistics, than anyone that was currently sitting in a chair at Oxford or Cambridge had.	因此,商人们,在算术方面, 和统计学的运用, 早期统计学的运用, 都比现在坐在牛津或剑桥的椅子上的人要多。
267	I mean, logic and consistency in reasoning.	我是说逻辑和推理的一致性
268	Now I don't think that they were quite as good at that.	现在,我不认为他们相当擅长这一点。
269	So, you know, it's, there's a couple, a couple standouts, but they, I think what happened or one way to think about it is that the merchants sort of created this discourse that became interesting and compelling enough that that other people then that had	所以,你知道,这是, 有一对夫妇, 一对夫妇的站立, 但是,他们,我认为发生了什么或者一种方法来思考它是由商家创造这种话变得有趣和有说服力
270	not in scientific analysis, because science in this time, again, is science is sort of a new idea, right?	不是在科学分析, 因为科学在这个时候,再次, 是科学是某种新的想法,对不对?
271	This is also like, it's only 1630 when the Royal Society is founded, this is Francis Bacon is, you know, he's still alive at the beginning of the centuries.	这也像,只有1630年皇家学会成立, 这是弗朗西斯·培根,你知道,他在几个世纪初还活着。
272	There's the heart Libyans.	有心脏利比亚人。
273	So just the idea of applying empirical and practical knowledge is very new.	因此,仅仅应用经验和实践知识的想法是非常新的.
274	And it's not really, it's not really, oh, you know, I realize, I'm sorry, people are asking questions, but I can't read it because it's in Chinese character.	而且,这不是真的,也不是真的,哦,你知道,我意识到,对不起,人们在问问题,但是我读不出来,因为它是中国人的性格.
275	So I just want to flag that in case it just came up, in case those are questions that we should be responding to.	因此,我只想指出,如果它刚刚出现,如果这些问题是我们应该回答的。
276	But so, okay, so scientific inquiry, it wasn't something that's coming from the universities, it's actually more of a kind of a groundswell.	但是,好吧,科学调查, 并不是来自大学的东西, 它实际上更像是一种井。
277	And there's a lot of the kind of gentlemanly dabbling occurring also, right?	也有很多绅士般的炫耀,对吧?
278	The Royal Society is composed of people that aren't really professional scientists, they're landowners that are sort of spending time, you know, observing ducks in specific ways or something like that.	皇家学会是由那些不是真正的专业科学家的人组成, 他们的地主是那种花时间,你知道, 观察鸭子的具体方式或类似的东西。
279	So, so it's kind of easier for these people to participate in the discourse that we would think about as academic, but really they're doing it for pretty grounded reasons and they're drawing from an empirical base of knowledge that will kind of more usefu	因此,让这些人更容易参与我们所认为的学术性讨论, 但实际上他们这样做是出于相当有根据的原因, 他们从一个经验性的知识基础中汲取了这些知识, 在某些方面会更有用。
280	And then over time, someone like Locke steps in, and Locke is actually is well trained and thinks about things quite logical and consistent fashion, and he makes some some inroads and pushes things further.	然后随着时间推移,像洛克这样的人步入其中,洛克实际上训练有素,对事物的思考相当合乎逻辑和一致的时尚,他做了一些进取,把事情推得更远.
281	But I think the reason that happened is, is that the merchants were able to make a compelling enough case about trade and, you know, national benefit wealth outcomes that people began to be more interested in participating in this dialogue and discourse.	但我认为发生的原因是,商人们能够就贸易提出足够有力的理由,以及,你知道的,国民利益财富的结果,人们开始更有兴趣参与这种对话和讨论。
282	Yeah, actually in Chinese, in the Ming and Qing dynasties, Chinese merchants also wrote a lot of books of commerce.	对,实际上在汉语,明朝和清朝,中国商人也写了很多商书.
283	Maybe they are similar, they were similar with the British equivalent, they have British equivalents, they were about the pragmatic knowledge of trade and accounting, things like that.	也许它们相似,它们与英国等同体相似,它们有英国等同体,它们是关于贸易和会计的实用知识,类似的东西.
284	But I always wonder why political economy didn't appear in China.	但我总是在想为什么中国没有出现政治经济.
285	Because there were also interesting, a lot of good books about the written by merchants, about the practical, the practices of trade and accounting.	因为也有不少有趣的,很多关于商人们所著的好书,关于实际的,贸易和会计的实践.
286	But why didn't this contribute to the rise of an independent discipline of political economy in China?	但是,这为什么没有促进中国政治经济独立学科的兴起?
287	And this is really bothering me, actually.	这真的让我很困扰。
288	I think it makes sense.	我觉得这有道理。
289	I mean, it's the same, you know, it is, it's, I mean, the, my book, and the argument that I make would imply that it's because of the particular relationship that the states and the merchants had, right, that there was no incentive for merchants to	我的意思是,这是相同的,你知道,它是, 我的意思是,这是,我是说,我的书, 和我的论点意味着,这是由于特殊的关系各州和商家有,正确的,
290	frame the problems of commerce or, you know, specie flow in terms of national wealth and prosperity, and to make those arguments for, in the public domain.	确定商业问题,或者说,从国家财富和繁荣的角度来看,在公共领域提出这些论点。
291	And so that would be like, it was the lack of those incentives, the lack of the possibility for persuading the state that made it that kind of work sort of, you know, superfluous, and so it doesn't appear.	因此,这就像, 缺乏这些激励, 缺乏说服的可能国家使它那种工作排序,你知道,是多余的, 所以它没有出现。
292	That would be the implication.	这就是其中的含义。
293	So does it really fit the Chinese context?	那么,这真的符合中国国情吗?
294	I would need to do more work, but I hope it's at least an interesting question to explore.	我需要做更多的工作, 但我希望它至少是一个有趣的问题探索。
295	Yeah, maybe there were no public spheres described in your book in China.	是啊,也许没有公共领域描述在你的书在中国。
296	And that would be a really, yeah, that's a really important element.	这将是一个真正的,是的, 这是一个非常重要的因素。
297	Yeah, exactly.	没错
298	And I guess the last few questions.	我猜最后几个问题
299	So the post pandemic transformation requires people to rethink about global development and economic growth.	因此,流行病后的变化需要人们重新思考全球发展和经济增长。
300	So is there room for today's businessmen or merchants to initiate and organize debates and publish articles based on their insights from real economic and business matters in the public sphere that may lead to a transformation of political economy in the	因此,今天的商人或商人是否有空间根据他们对公共领域实际经济和商业事务的深刻见解,发起和组织辩论并发表文章,这可能导致新时代政治经济的转变?
301	You know, there has been many think tanks to promote a new version of political economy and things like that.	你知道,有许多智囊团来推广新的政治经济和类似的东西。
302	I wonder if there's space for merchants or businessmen, today's businessmen, to participate in this?	我怀疑商家或商家,即今日的商人,是否还有参与此事的空间?
303	I mean, I think so.	我的意思是,我想是这样。
304	I think so.	我想是这样。
305	I think, you know, I mean, so it is also true, of course, now economics exists.	我想,你知道,我的意思, 所以这也是事实, 当然,现在经济学存在。
306	And as we already discussed, the bar, the level of expertise that exists in economics departments and that's commanded by economists is very high, right?	正如我们已经讨论过的,酒吧, 经济学系中存在的并由经济学家指挥的专门知识水平非常高,对吧?
307	So it's a little hard in some sense for someone that doesn't have a PhD, for example, to kind of compete in terms of expertise or influence with someone that does.	因此,对于一个没有博士学位的人来说,从某种意义上讲,对于一个没有博士学位的人来说,这有点困难,比如说,在专业知识或影响力方面,对于一个没有博士学位的人来说,这有点困难。
308	So it's a different context.	故上下文不同.
309	It's not as though there's an absence of the thought that's being created at the time.	岂如当时众生所生无思惟.
310	You know, now it takes a little bit more to kind of get over that bar, I think, for the merchants or business people, you know.	你知道,现在它需要多一点有点过吧,我想, 对于商人或商人,你知道。
311	But I do think that one of the lessons of the book is that there's information expertise within these corporations or companies that can have a positive impact on social development over time.	但我确实认为,这本书的教训之一是, 这些公司或公司内部有信息专长, 可以对社会发展产生积极影响。
312	And I think that that's something that is, at least in the United States at this point, people do not look to corporations, businesses for positive influences.	我认为,至少在美国, 人们并不指望公司,企业产生积极的影响。
313	They tend to think of them as sort of evil monolithic companies that are trying to get as much, you know, power and wealth as they can.	他们往往认为他们是一种邪恶的单一公司, 试图获得尽可能多的权力和财富。
314	But historically, I don't, you know, there was a lot more sort of moral responsibility, I think, that was taken up by these corporations and I think all society benefited from that.	但是,从历史上看,我不,你知道, 我认为,还有更多的道德责任被这些公司所承担, 我认为所有的社会都从中获益。
315	And I think that if we expect, if we have higher expectations from, say, merchants, corporations or business people in terms of what their contribution to society can be, they might start to fulfill those expectations.	我认为,如果我们期望,如果我们对商人、公司或商人的期望更高, 就他们对社会的贡献而言,他们可能会开始实现这些期望。
316	So I think that we should, and there's lots of knowledge and, wow, a corporation's business takes up a lot of our society and sort of time, you know.	所以,我认为我们应该, 有很多的知识, 和,哇,一个公司的业务占用了很多我们的社会和时间,你知道的。
317	So I think that it, I think we should make, certainly make space for them to contribute, you know, powerful and innovative ways of thinking about how to improve things for everyone.	因此我认为,我认为我们应该创造空间, 让他们能够贡献,你知道, 强大和创新的方法, 来思考如何改善每个人的生活。
318	We should all be doing that.	我们都应该这样做。
319	Yeah, just a similar negative sentiment against businessmen.	是啊,只是一种类似的负面情绪对商人。
320	And it's very similar with the American trend in China in recent decades.	并且与近几十年来美国在中国的趋势非常相似.
321	I think maybe after the 2008 financial crisis.	我想也许是在2008年金融危机之后。
322	So, yeah, so I guess maybe the Chinese businessman can contribute something if, you know, if there's things are set up, there's good institutions and expectations for them to contribute.	所以,是的,所以我想也许中国商人可以贡献一些东西,如果,你知道, 如果有事情建立起来, 有好的机构和期望他们作出贡献。
323	And the last question, do you view yourself a historian of economic thoughts?	最后一个问题是,你是否认为自己是经济思想的历史学家?
324	What have your books contributed to history of economic thoughts, this small field in economics?	你们的书对经济思想的历史有什么贡献,这个经济学的小领域?
325	So, I mean, I couldn't say I'm a historian of, well, I mean, I'm not really a historian, so I probably wouldn't refer to myself as a historian of economic thought, but I do have many friends that are historians of economic thought, if that makes sense.	所以,我的意思是,我不能说我是一个历史学家,嗯,我的意思是,我不是真正的历史学家,所以我可能不会把自己称为经济思想的历史学家,但是我确实有许多朋友是经济思想的历史学家,如果这有道理的话.
326	Yeah, so I mean, I think of what I'm doing.	是啊,所以我的意思是,我想我在做什么。
327	I mean, economic thought is, I don't think anyone would be offended if I said it's a little moribund, right?	我的意思是,经济思想是, 我不认为任何人会生气如果我说它有点枯燥,对不对?
328	It's not a completely lively, vibrant field right now.	它不是一个完全活泼,充满活力的球场现在。
329	It's very small, and it's kind of been hashing over some of questions that are sort of similar over time.	它非常小, 并且它有点散漫在一些问题上, 有点相似的时间。
330	So if anything, I think it's been kind of trapped.	所以,如果有什么, 我认为它是某种被困。
331	I mean, actually, and I have this from a review of my book that I read recently, it is true.	我的意思是,实际上,我从我最近读的书的回顾中得到了这个,这是真的。
332	So like, for example, histories of economic thought have pretty much been debating how to define mercantilism for the past, you know, like, 20 or more years, like, at least a couple decades.	比如说,经济思想的历史几乎一直在争论如何定义过去, 比如说,20年或更长的时间, 至少几十年。
333	So that seems like that's probably not a fruitful debate at this point, and we might want to move past it.	因此,这似乎不是一场富有成效的辩论, 我们也许想通过它。
334	And so I think that at least what I've done in this book is showed a possible path forward for the history of economic thought where we can think not so much about, you know, arguing over different definitions, but thinking about what is what's causing th	所以我认为,至少我在这本书中所做的, 展现了经济思想史上可能前进的道路, 在那里,我们可以思考的不是太多,你知道的, 争论不同的定义, 而是思考是什么导致这些变化。
335	And hopefully, it's not, you know, it's not really a causal framework, but it's a lot closer to a causal framework than, you know, just kind of like describing the narrative shifts as they go along.	希望它不是,你知道, 它不是一个真正的因果框架, 但是它离因果框架更近, 而不是,你知道,就像描述叙事的转变一样。
336	Yeah, yeah.	对对
337	Okay.	摆
338	And we have some questions from the audience who are really, who look forward to interacting with you.	我们有一些问题来自观众谁是真正的, 谁期待与你互动。
339	So they have some of them have posted questions in Chinese.	因此,他们有一些他们张贴了中文问题。
340	And also, the organizer has collected some questions from the audience.	另外,组织者还收集了观众的一些问题.
341	Yesterday, I think I got some of them, and I selected several questions.	昨天,我想我得到了一些, 我选择了几个问题。
342	So, so let me ask you the questions from the audience.	所以,让我来问你观众的问题。
343	So, so when I'm one of them said Professor trade has played an important role in the formation of the modern world.	所以,当我是其中之一的时候, 贸易教授在现代世界的形成中发挥了重要作用。
344	For example, the, the Dutch Empire was once called a coachman on the sea.	例如,荷兰帝国曾经在海上被称为教练.
345	It is a typical early Western country that built its country by trade.	它是典型的早期西方国家,通过贸易建设国家.
346	So it's trade, a double edged sword in the contemporary society, especially in the era of globalization.	所以它是贸易,是当代社会的双刃剑,特别是在全球化时代.
347	That is, if it goes well, it will benefit itself and its partners.	也就是说,如果进展顺利,它就会使自己及其合作伙伴受益。
348	But if it doesn't, it will endanger its own development interests.	但如果它不这样做,就会危及它自己的发展利益.
349	I would say, so it's the, it seems like the connection maybe is just a little bit bad.	我会说,所以它是, 它似乎是连接可能只是一点点坏。
350	So I just want to say that.	所以我只想说。
351	So it let me know if my connection gets bad.	所以如果联系不好就告诉我
352	I mean, I think trade is a positive.	我的意思是,我认为贸易是一个积极的。
353	So, and I know that globalization is has been cast negatively.	因此,我知道全球化是消极的。
354	But in my, I mean, the expansion of trade has dramatically reduced inequality in the world is across nations so within nations then there's been maybe some, there's been increases in inequality.	但在我的,我的意思是, 贸易的扩张大大降低了世界上的不平等在各国之间, 所以在各国内部,也许有一些, 不平等有所加剧。
355	But I would not pin that on on the expansion of global trade, it's instead the kind of rules and regulations that govern the distribution of the returns from that global trade.	但我不认为全球贸易的扩张, 而是管理全球贸易收益分配的规则和条例。
356	So, in my, I think global trade is is a positive.	因此,在我看来,全球贸易是积极的。
357	And I think it's, it increases the resources that are available to all I think global intercourse it between nations is extremely important intellectual exchange is extremely important I think we benefit so much from from all of those different things.	我认为,它增加了所有的资源, 我认为,全球的交融是极其重要的知识交流是极其重要的。我认为,我们从所有这些不同的事物中得到了很多好处。
358	And I would not want to live in a world where I was not able to direct an exchange program that facilitated that the development of an intellectual global community, I think it's just important.	我不想生活在一个我无法指导一个交流计划的世界里, 这个交流计划促进了全球知识界的发展, 我认为这是非常重要的。
359	And so many different dimensions.	和很多不同的维度。
360	So that I can see that there's some concern about global commodity chains you know those like see supply chains become fragile at certain points but it's possible.	这样我就能看出,对全球商品链有些担忧, 你所知道的,比如说,供应链在某些方面变得脆弱,但有可能。
361	So, I think we can, we, the, the answer is not to throw the baby out with the bath water is the more to kind of like fix these points of fragility and make it a little bit more robust I think that would probably be a better answer.	因此,我认为我们可以,我们, 答案不是用浴水把孩子扔出去, 而是更喜欢修补这些脆弱点, 让它更坚固一点, 我认为那可能是一个更好的答案。
362	It's my thoughts on the matter anyways.	反正我也是这么想的
363	Okay, here's another question.	好吧,这是另一个问题。
364	So, is there a difference.	所以,有区别吗?
365	Is there barriers.	是否有障碍。
366	Are there barriers between history and sociology.	历史和社会学之间是否有障碍。
367	What should be done during my undergraduate studies if I am interested in historical sociology.	如果我对历史社会学感兴趣的话,本科期间应该做什么.
368	So, are there barriers, I mean, so I studied undergraduate I was studied history as an undergraduate and then I went into sociology as a graduate student.	所以,有没有障碍,我的意思是, 所以我本科学习我作为本科生学习历史然后作为研究生进入社会学。
369	I don't think the barriers are very high.	我不认为障碍非常高。
370	My suggestion would be to study sociology because you get some skills in sociology that you won't have access to in history, but to take as many sort of history classes as you can to sort of round it out.	我的建议是研究社会学因为你在社会学方面得到一些技能, 在历史中是无法进入的, 而是尽可能多地选修一些历史课程, 来整理它。
371	Hopefully, the in the, you'll be in a sociology department where there's people that are doing comparative historical work and you can also work with them.	希望里面的人,你会在一个社会学系里, 那里有人在做比较的历史工作, 你也可以和他们一起工作。
372	Comparative historical work though is an important component of sociology it's sort of the longest standing area I mean marks Weber Durkheim, they are kind of the founding fathers of sociology they were all engaged in comparative historical work.	比较历史工作虽然是社会学的重要组成部分它是我指最长的常设领域标记韦伯杜尔海姆他们是社会学的创始人他们都从事比较历史工作
373	So, it's not, it's not fringe it's something that's definitely at the center of the discipline and it should hopefully be not too difficult to pursue.	所以,它不是,不是边缘它的东西绝对是纪律的中心, 希望它不应该太难追求。
374	Of course the characters of different departments varies somewhat.	当然,不同部门的角色有所不同。
375	And there's another one.	还有另一个
376	Are there similarities or differences between politics and business men and women as politics can be security driven operate within nationalistic parameters.	政治与商人之间是否有相似之处或差异,因为政治可以是由安全驱动,在民族主义范围内运作。
377	It's there's cooperation and the confrontation is the economic world similar does it transcend political differences, or do we see similar patterns play out.	它有合作,对峙是经济世界的相似性,它是否超越了政治分歧,或者我们是否看到类似的模式出现.
378	Well, I suppose, in, in the era that that I've been writing about in the 17th century you know this was the era of mercantilism so the kind of slogan of that is power and plenty and trade and nation, and the is when arm, hand in hand.	嗯,我想,在17世纪我所写的这个时代, 你知道,这是商贸主义的时代, 那种口号是权力和财富, 贸易和国家, 当手牵手的时候。
379	So, the concerns of politics, where the sort of framework through which people thought about commercial problems.	所以,政治的顾虑, 人们通过这种框架思考商业问题。
380	So the kind of competition that existed between nations, and that exists between nations in terms of politics was also thought to you know the	因此,人们也认为,国家之间存在的竞争,以及国家之间存在的政治竞争。
381	trade was thought of as a zero sum game itself like if we're going to be the best trading nation in the world.	贸易被认为是一个零和的游戏本身就像我们将成为世界上最好的贸易国一样。
382	Then, you know, that means that we've taken trade away from another country that would otherwise have that trade.	然后,你知道, 这意味着我们已经取消了贸易从另一个国家本来会有这种贸易。
383	And so it's like just you know there's pie and there's this much trade in the world and we're going to divide it up in different ways and whoever gets the biggest slice pie gets gets the most trade and the other people lose out.	所以这就像你知道有馅饼, 世界上有这么多的贸易, 我们要以不同的方式把它分开, 谁得到最大的切片馅饼, 得到的交易最多,其他人就会输掉。
384	But, you know, this is sort of one of the big contributions of Adam Smith is, is that it's not, it's not a pie, you know, it's, it expands and so the more people that engaged in trade and the more division of labor, there is the more expertise,	但是,你知道,这是亚当·斯密的一大贡献之一是,它不是,它不是一个馅饼, 你知道,它是扩张的, 所以从事贸易的人越多, 分工越多,
385	the resources expand so it's trade is not a zero sum game.	资源扩张了所以贸易不是零和游戏
386	It is something that the ball is more like the more you contribute the better it is the more people involved right so like that it's like something with externalities the telephone's	球越是贡献越多参与的人越多
387	not very useful unless everyone has a telephone that it becomes extremely useful trade it gets better the more people engage in it.	除非每个人都有电话电话成为极有用的交易否则就会越多的人参与越好
388	So I think the logic, it times people have thought the logic is the same and, and there is still this kind of sense of competitiveness and trade, but, but it, I think we've learned the lesson over time and I hope we still embrace it that the world is bett	所以,我认为逻辑,它的时间人们认为逻辑是相同的, 而且,仍然有这种的竞争力和贸易感, 但是,它,我认为我们已经吸取了教训随着时间的推移,我希望我们仍然接受它,
389	societies are flourishing for everyone.	社会正在为每个人繁荣。
390	So here's another question so Holland was one of the countries that established modern business models.	还有一个问题,荷兰是建立现代商业模式的国家之一。
391	Its business models influenced Western Europe and North America deeply, but it has not, it did not have big influences in Eastern Europe.	其商业模式对西欧和北美产生了深刻的影响,但并未在东欧产生很大影响。
392	Was it because the inland countries were less impacted by new or fresh things.	这是因为内陆国家较少受到新事物或新鲜事物的影响。
393	So the question is hard so the business model, do they mean the corporation or do they mean, I mean so I could think that innovations are things like public debt, like the representation in the government is like a Dutch thing pretty much.	所以,问题很困难,所以商业模式, 是指公司,还是他们的意思, 我的意思是,我可以认为,创新就像公共债务一样, 比如在政府中的代表性就像荷兰的东西。
394	And, and then there's the companies also of course corporate charters things.	然后,还有公司当然公司章程的事情。
395	So they took off more in the West, where they, I think it's a more complicated problem than just a culture of innovation, kind of answer so the most convincing.	因此,他们在西方起飞,在那里, 我认为这是一个更复杂的问题不仅仅是一种创新文化, 一种答案,所以最有说服力。
396	I mean, and, you know, for me the question is not so much Eastern Europe, the question is, is.	我的意思是,而且,你知道,对我来说, 问题不是太多东欧,问题是,是。
397	in Asia, which had this like thriving,	在亚洲,有这样的繁荣,
398	like incredibly sophisticated commercial world,	就像非常复杂的商业世界,
399	why were companies not adopted more early,	为什么公司没有更早地被采纳,
400	or adopted earlier?	还是提前被收养?
401	I always find that, you know, what was it about,	我总是发现,你知道,是什么原因,
402	why did the corporate form not kind of take off	为什么公司形式没有起飞
403	in Asia earlier?	之前在亚洲?
404	That's the historical puzzle	这就是历史谜题
405	that I've always been kind of interested in.	我一直很感兴趣
406	But the work that I've been the most persuaded by	但我最受说服的作品
407	is that it has actually to do with the small family size	实际上,这与家庭规模小有关
408	in Western Europe.	西欧。
409	So, I mean, and I guess this is a sort of related	所以,我的意思是, 我想这是一种关联
410	to the Catholic church.	去天主教会
411	They wanted the nuclear family model,	他们想要核心家庭模式
412	which kind of reduced the impact	什么样的影响
413	of large scale kinship networks,	大规模亲属网络,
414	which had organized most societies	组织大多数社会
415	and for most of the world.	也为世界大部分地区
416	And that the reduction of the operating family unit	而减少家庭经营单位
417	and the reduction of the importance	和减少其重要性
418	of these kinship networks created a space	这些亲属网络创造了空间
419	where corporate forms could sort of take on the role	公司形式可以发挥这种作用
420	that these other informal networks	其他非正式网络
421	had kind of operated within.	里面有手术
422	So, instead of having kinship, patron client relationship,	所以,与其说有亲戚关系, 客户关系,
423	structuring everything, the corporate form kind of emerged	组织一切, 公司的形式出现
424	in this like, you know, space of absence	像这样,你知道, 空旷的空间
425	and then turned out to be a very powerful form	然后变成了一种非常强大的形式
426	of organization.	组织事项。
427	And so that's what I know about it at this point.	所以我知道这一点。
428	It's not the work that I've actually done,	这不是我真正做过的工作,
429	but I'm just drawing from other people's work.	但我只是从别人的作品中画出来的
430	So it seems like it actually has to do	所以,它似乎真的必须做
431	with family structure.	有家庭结构。
432	So let's take the last question from the chat window.	所以,让我们从聊天窗口拿最后一个问题。
433	In the Chinese style historical narrative,	在中国风格的历史叙事中,
434	many businessmen turned to desire for political power	许多商人都向往政治权力
435	after they had great economic strengths.	他们拥有巨大的经济实力
436	Sometimes this is not the case in Western countries.	有时西方国家的情况并非如此。
437	So professor, what is the reason for this difference?	那么,教授,为什么有这种区别?
438	How do Western businessmen influence	西方商人如何影响
439	and shape national policies through trade?	通过贸易制定国家政策?
440	And the person is from University of Melbourne.	他来自墨尔本大学
441	Thank you.	谢谢
442	Well, this is a difficult question.	好吧,这是一个困难的问题。
443	I mean, so why do businessmen not try,	我的意思是,为什么商人不尝试,
444	I mean, some do in the United States, of course, right?	我的意思是,一些在美国,当然,对不对?
445	So some people make lots of money	所以有人赚了很多钱
446	and then they go into politics.	然后他们进入政界。
447	And, you know, I can think of, you know,	而且,你知道, 我可以想到,你知道,
448	Michael Bloomberg, for example, or Paul Rand, or, you know.	比如迈克尔·布隆伯格或者保罗·兰德
449	So it's not that they don't,	所以不是说他们没有
450	but there are also lots of career politicians	但也有很多职业政治家
451	in the United States, people that study law	在美国学习法律的人
452	and then serve in, maybe it's actually about party politics	然后服务于,也许它实际上党的政治
453	now that I'm thinking about it.	现在我想起来了
454	So if you have large functioning political parties	所以如果你有大型的政党
455	and that there's, you know, like a system of promotion	并且有,你知道, 像一个晋升系统
456	within the parties, then working in business,	在各方内部,然后在企业中工作,
457	and then, you know, you're 60 and you're gonna retire,	然后,你知道,你 60,你会退休,
458	and then you wanna suddenly be the nominee for the party,	然后你突然想成为党的提名人,
459	then, you know, you haven't actually paid your dues	那,你知道,你还没有实际支付你的会费
460	within this larger system.	在这个更大的系统中。
461	So I am thinking that that's probably, you know,	所以我想,这可能是,你知道,
462	the difference there.	那边的区别。
463	I mean, you also, of course, like it is true	我的意思是,你也是,当然, 像这是真的
464	that politics is difficult, I would say.	我想说,政治是困难的。
465	I mean, governance is difficult.	我的意思是,治理是困难的。
466	So knowing what the right policies are	所以知道什么是正确的政策
467	and how to produce your intended outcomes, it's not easy.	和如何产生你的预期结果, 这是不容易的。
468	Society is a very complex interdependent system.	社会是一个非常复杂的相互依存的制度。
469	So for someone to come out of a business	所以有人能从生意中出来
470	and then think that they understand the system	然后以为他们了解这个系统
471	of government, they probably don't.	政府,他们可能不会。
472	And they probably actually needs a lot more experience	他们可能需要更多的经验
473	and knowledge in the sphere of politics.	以及政治领域的知识。
474	So I think that that might also produce some resistance	所以,我认为这也可能产生一些阻力
475	among the parties, right?	在派对上,对不对?
476	They want people that are actually well-versed	他们想要真正精通的人
477	in how the parties operate and what they're trying to do,	双方如何运作以及他们想做什么
478	and also the process and practice of governance.	以及治理过程和做法。
479	So Western businessmen influence and shape national policy.	因此西方商人影响和塑造了国家政策.
480	I mean, I was, you know, through trade,	我的意思是,我是,你知道, 通过交易,
481	I mean, they lobby the government, right?	我的意思是,他们游说政府,对不对?
482	And then there's also things that are similar	还有类似的东西
483	to councils of trade, where there's the government,	到贸易委员会, 在那里有政府,
484	the state calls upon businessmen to directly advise them	国家呼吁商人直接给他们建议
485	in matters of trade and policy.	贸易与政策问题。
486	They don't always adopt the ideas	他们并不总是采纳这些想法
487	that the businessmen propose,	商人们提议,
488	but there is definitely a conversation.	但绝对有对话
489	And I suppose also there's, you know, I mean, there's,	我想还有,你知道,我的意思是,有,
490	I mean, it just makes me think of Elon Musk	我的意思是,它只是让我想起伊隆穆斯克
491	is constantly on Twitter, you know,	经常在推特上,你知道,
492	suggesting ridiculous things.	暗示一些荒谬的事情
493	I don't know if you would even get that information	我不知道你会不会得到这个信息
494	or follow it, but he does insert himself	或遵循它,但他的确插入自己,
495	into political events in a way that's unhelpful.	以无益的方式进入政治事件。
496	But so at this point, and he does it through Twitter,	但此时此刻,他通过推特做,
497	which he's also going to purchase.	他也会买的
498	So strangely enough, it seems that businessmen	这么奇怪,似乎商人
499	can insert themselves into politics by, you know,	可以通过,你知道,
500	using social media.	使用社交媒体。
501	I don't know if, does that happen in China?	我不知道,是否发生在中国?
502	It seems like a crazy thing.	这似乎是一个疯狂的事情。
503	It doesn't seem like a very organized way	这似乎不太有条理
504	of getting advice and implementing it,	获得建议并落实建议,
505	but that seems to happen.	但是这似乎发生了。
506	Okay, so it's already almost 10 past nine.	好了,已经快九点十了
507	And yeah, so we're really grateful	是啊,所以我们真的很感激
508	for having Professor Emily Erickson here	因为艾米莉·埃里克森教授来
509	to introduce her book and explain	介绍她的书和解释
510	some very interesting questions in her research	她研究中的一些非常有趣的问题
511	and the other, we hope that we still have opportunities	我们希望我们还有机会
512	to talk about the other two books you have written.	谈谈你写的另外两本书
513	And I believe the Chinese readers will be interested	我相信中国读者会感兴趣
514	in knowing all of your works, whole profile of them.	了解你的所有作品, 和他们的全部简介。
515	And again, this is the Chinese edition of your book	再说一遍,这是你书的中文版
516	with almost the same design, right, of the front page.	和头版几乎一样
517	So due to time limits, we cannot exhaust all the questions	所以由于时间的限制我们不能把问题都解决了
518	from the audience, but we have really learned a lot.	但是我们学到了很多
519	And we're really thankful for your explanations.	我们真的很感谢你的解释。
520	Is there anything that you want to speak	你想说什么?
521	to your Chinese audience, Chinese readers?	给中国观众,中国读者?
522	Just thank you so much.	非常谢谢你
523	Thank you so much for coming in.	谢谢你能来
524	I hope that you enjoy the book and it's a real pleasure.	我希望你喜欢这本书,这是真正的乐趣。
525	And thank you, Helen.	谢谢你海伦
526	Thanks so much for your amazing questions.	非常感谢你问的好问题
527	Thank you everybody for joining us for a great conversation.	感谢大家加入我们的谈话
528	And thank you, Helen, again, for hosting.	再次感谢你,海伦,你主持。
529	And thank you, Emily, for getting up nice and early for us.	谢谢你艾米莉为我们早早起床
530	And I can unmute everybody	我也能让大家解脱
531	so that everybody can say thank you to you both personally.	这样大家都可以说谢谢你们两个个人。
532	And then thank you, everybody, for joining us.	然后感谢大家加入我们
533	Thanks.	谢谢
534	Well, thank you.	谢谢
535	Thank you.	谢谢
536	Thank you so much.	非常感谢
537	Thank you, thank you.	谢谢,谢谢。

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