柏拉图《会饮篇》要从奥德赛说起？聊聊两千年前的“恋爱脑”

发布于 2026-10-16 · 时长 1:27:32

字幕摘录

时间	英文	中文
0:02	Okay, great.	好吧,伟大的。
0:03	And it's 730.	则七百三十.
0:05	And good evening, everyone.	大家晚上好,谢谢
0:08	I'm Lin Shi Li, Managing Director of Princeton University Press China Office.	我是林世立,普林斯顿大学出版社中国办公室总经理.
0:13	And thanks to all the online audience for joining the Princeton Yale Ideas Series.	感谢所有在线观众加入普林斯顿耶鲁思想系列.
0:18	So this is a featured speaker series,	所以这是一个特别的演讲者系列,
0:22	jointly organized by Princeton University Press China Office at Yale Center Beijing.	由普林斯顿大学出版社北京耶鲁中心中国办事处联合组织.
0:27	And this initiative featuring our world leading scholars and their influential books, aiming to foster this idea exchange on topics of global relevance.	这个以我们世界的著名学者及其有影响力的书籍为特色的倡议, 旨在促进这种关于全球相关议题的思想交流。
0:39	And first of all, I want to briefly introduce Yale Center Beijing on behalf of Carol and her team.	首先,我想代表卡罗尔和她的团队,向大家简要介绍耶鲁中心北京.
0:46	Yale Center Beijing is Yale University's only university-wide center outside of the US campus.	耶鲁北京中心是耶鲁大学唯一的全大学中心,位于美国校园外.

展开字幕全文（1007 条）

序号	英文	中文
1	Okay, great.	好吧,伟大的。
2	And it's 730.	则七百三十.
3	And good evening, everyone.	大家晚上好,谢谢
4	I'm Lin Shi Li, Managing Director of Princeton University Press China Office.	我是林世立,普林斯顿大学出版社中国办公室总经理.
5	And thanks to all the online audience for joining the Princeton Yale Ideas Series.	感谢所有在线观众加入普林斯顿耶鲁思想系列.
6	So this is a featured speaker series,	所以这是一个特别的演讲者系列,
7	jointly organized by Princeton University Press China Office at Yale Center Beijing.	由普林斯顿大学出版社北京耶鲁中心中国办事处联合组织.
8	And this initiative featuring our world leading scholars and their influential books, aiming to foster this idea exchange on topics of global relevance.	这个以我们世界的著名学者及其有影响力的书籍为特色的倡议, 旨在促进这种关于全球相关议题的思想交流。
9	And first of all, I want to briefly introduce Yale Center Beijing on behalf of Carol and her team.	首先,我想代表卡罗尔和她的团队,向大家简要介绍耶鲁中心北京.
10	Yale Center Beijing is Yale University's only university-wide center outside of the US campus.	耶鲁北京中心是耶鲁大学唯一的全大学中心,位于美国校园外.
11	And it's the home of Yale alumni in Beijing, China and and wider Asia, and it represents its 14 schools.	也是耶鲁校友在北京,中国乃至更广大亚洲的故乡,代表其14所学校.
12	And Princeton University Press China Office is the first and so far the only American university press opening an office in China.	中国普林斯顿大学出版社办公室是美国最早,也是迄今为止唯一一家在华开设办公室的大学报刊.
13	So we we scout the very best scholars in China for the global audience and also bringing English language works into China to foster this global learnings.	因此,我们为全球观众探寻中国最优秀的学者,同时也将英语作品带入中国,培养这种全球学习.
14	And today, we're very pleased and honored to have two honorable guests to featuring a PoP book, How to Talk About Love, an ancient guide for modern readers.	今天,我们非常高兴和荣幸有两位尊敬的嘉宾来主演《PoP》一书《如何谈论爱情》现代读者的古代指南
15	So this book is a very charming new translation of selections from Plato's great dramatic works, The Symposium.	因此,这本书是对柏拉图的伟大戏剧性作品The System的选集的非常迷人的新译本.
16	I'd like to introduce the editors and translator of the books, Professor Armand Denguer, who is the professor of Classics and University of Oxford.	引见各书的编辑和翻译家,教授阿曼德·登格(Armand Denguer),他是牛津大学的经典学教授.
17	His research focuses on the language, literature, psychology, culture, and also music of ancient Greece.	他的研究重点是古希腊的语言,文学,心理学,文化,以及音乐.
18	He's also the editor and translator of How to Innovate, An Ancient Guide to Creative Thinking, which is also published by Princeton University Press in our series, The Ancient Wisdom for Modern Readers.	他还是"如何创新"(How to Innovate)的编辑和翻译,"古老的创意思考指南"(Ancient Guide to Creative Thoughting)也是普林斯顿大学出版社在我们丛书"现代读者的古老智慧"中出版的.
19	So another is our honorable discussant today, Professor Liu Wei, who is the professor at the School of Philosophy at Xiamen University of China.	另一位是今天我们尊敬的讨论者刘伟教授,他是中国厦门大学哲学学院的教授.
20	His research focuses on ancient Greek philosophy, Western ethics, and political philosophy.	他的研究重点是古希腊哲学,西方伦理学,以及政治哲学.
21	And he's also the author of The Common Good and Private Interest, a study in Aristotle's Practical Philosophy, published by Peking University Press, and Machiavelli and Modernity, published by East China Normal University Press,	他也是"共同的好和私人的利益"的作者,是北京大学出版社出版的"亚里士多德实用哲学研究"和"马奇雅维利与现代"的作者,由东华普通大学出版社出版,
22	and also the editor of A History of Western Political Philosophy, Volume One, published by China Renmin University Press.	以及中国任民大学出版社出版的"西方政治哲学史"第一卷编辑.
23	And I want to take just a very quick minute to introduce the How to series published by Princeton University Press, which presents a very small, bulky-sized classic philosophy books in the English, Greek, or English-Latin editions.	我想用极短的一分钟来介绍一下普林斯顿大学出版社出版的《怎样才能》系列, 该系列以英文、希腊文或英文-拉丁文出版,介绍了一本规模非常小,体积庞大的经典哲学书籍。
24	It invites readers to see how classic philosophy can speak to contemporary life and contemporary question, rather than assuming that philosophy must remain obstacle and confined to the ivory tower.	它邀请读者看看经典哲学如何能对当代生活和当代问题说话,而不是假设哲学必须保持障碍,并局限于象牙塔.
25	Instead, I think the aim of the series begins with the question many people already carry, how to talk about love, how to break up, how to keep an open mind, how to be healthy.	相反,我认为系列的目标始于许多人已经携带的问题,如何谈论爱情,如何分手,如何保持开放的心态,如何保持健康.
26	So at the heart of the series is a very simple thought about relevance.	因此,在系列的核心是一个关于相关性的非常简单的想法.
27	The profound ideas tend to stay alive when they can respond to the confusion of the modern days.	深刻的观念往往在能够对现代的混乱作出反应时才得以存活.
28	So our feature book today is How to Talk About Love.	我们今天的专题书是《如何谈爱情》。
29	So it explores humanity's timeless questions.	因此它探索了人类永恒的问题.
30	What is love?	什么是爱?
31	Rooted in the Plato's Symposium, The Source of Platonic Love and the book offer a very lively and readable new translations.	根植于柏拉图的座谈会上,"柏拉图爱之源"和这本书提供了非常生动和可读的新译本.
32	Okay, so before I hand it over to our speaker today, a little bit of the house rules.	好吧,所以在今天我把它交给我们的演讲人之前, 一点点的房子规则。
33	Professor Denguer will speak for about 40 to 45 minutes to offer the key insights of the book, and Professor Liu Wei will comment and share his perspective about 30 minutes.	邓高尔教授将发言约40至45分钟,提出书中的关键见解,刘伟教授将发表评论并分享他的观点,约30分钟.
34	And those who are watching the live stream on POP or YCB video accounts can leave your questions in the comments section.	而那些在POP或YCB视频账号上观看直播流的人可以将你的问题留在评论部分.
35	We will select questions and forward them to the speakers today.	我们今天将选定问题,并转交发言者。
36	So, Professor Denguer, the floor is yours.	所以,登格教授,这里是你的。
37	Thank you very much and hello everyone.	非常感谢大家好
38	Welcome to this event.	欢迎光临
39	I'm very honored to be asked to talk about this book, which I must say I really enjoyed writing, which is a good thing because it's about Plato's Symposium, which is the dialogue about what is love.	我很荣幸地被邀请来谈论这本书, 我必须说我真的很喜欢写作, 这是件好事,因为它是关于柏拉图的研讨会, 这是关于什么是爱的对话。
40	Now, I mean, that's not how it's set up.	现在,我的意思是,这不是如何设置。
41	The beauty of this book by Plato is that it is a dramatic account of a party, a party at which a group of men get together.	柏拉图的这本书的美丽之处在于它是一个戏剧性的党的叙述,一个一群人聚在一起的党.
42	And we know the date of that.	我们知道日期
43	It's 416 BC.	这是公元前416年。
44	And they are celebrating the victory in a dramatic contest, which these are the things that happened in ancient Athens.	他们正在一场戏剧性的比赛中庆祝胜利, 这就是在古代雅典发生的事情。
45	They put on plays in a competition, a drama competition, and the host of the party is the winner of the tragic competition.	他们在一场比赛,一场戏剧比赛中上演剧情剧情剧情剧情剧情剧情剧情剧情剧情剧情剧情剧情剧情剧情剧情剧情剧情剧情剧情剧情剧情剧情剧情剧情剧情剧情剧情剧情剧情剧情剧情剧情剧情剧情剧情剧情剧情剧情剧情剧情剧情剧情剧情剧情剧情剧情剧情剧情剧情剧情剧情剧情剧情剧情剧情剧情剧情剧情剧情剧情剧情剧情剧情剧情剧情剧情剧情剧情剧情剧情剧情剧情剧情剧情剧情剧情剧情剧情剧情剧情剧情剧情剧情剧情剧情剧情剧情剧情剧情剧情剧情剧情剧情剧情剧情剧情剧情剧情剧情剧情剧情剧情剧情剧情剧情剧情剧情剧情剧情剧情剧情剧情剧情剧情剧情剧情剧情剧情剧情
46	His name is Agathon, and he's a real individual.	他叫阿加顿他是一个真正的个体
47	All the characters, except perhaps one in this book that are named, are real people from ancient Athens.	所有的角色,除了本书中一个被命名的人物外,都是来自古代雅典的真人.
48	Now, excuse the sound in the background.	现在,原谅声音在背景。
49	I have a little dog moaning.	我有一个小狗呻吟。
50	So from time to time, you might hear some whining because she's been locked in.	所以偶尔你会听到一些抱怨因为她被锁在里面了
51	But I might try and get someone to remove her in a minute.	但我可能想找人在一分钟内把她带走
52	Very much the love of my life at the moment.	我生命中最深的爱
53	So we have this dramatic scenario in which Agathon the host, having won this victory with his tragedy in 416 BC,	因此,我们有一个戏剧性的情景, 东道主阿加顿, 在这场胜利与他的悲剧在公元前416年,
54	so that's why we know the date, throws a party.	所以我们才知道日期开派对
55	Everyone gets drunk.	每个人都喝醉。
56	And so the second night, the same people gather at his house and they decide to have a party without drinking.	于是第二夜,同样的人聚集在他家,他们决定举行一个不喝酒的聚会.
57	Just discussing.	只是讨论一下
58	And the word symposium means a drinking party, actually.	研讨会这个词其实是指一个喝酒的派对。
59	So symposium in today's world tends to mean a conference of scholars.	因此,今天世界的座谈会往往意味着一个学者会议.
60	There may be some drink going on, but it's not necessarily the central part of the party,	可能会有一些饮料进行, 但不一定是党的核心部分,
61	whereas symposium in ancient Greek does actually mean a drinking party.	而研讨会在古希腊语中实际上意味着一个饮酒派对.
62	So it's very much about drink.	故其甚于饮.
63	This is why it's quite curious that the word, thanks to Plato's symposium,	这就是为什么它很好奇这个词,感谢柏拉图的研讨会,
64	has come to be something that isn't centrally involved with drinking,	已经变得不是与饮酒集中,
65	but is centrally involved with discussing and debating.	但集中参与讨论和辩论。
66	So they decide, the men in this party decide they will do without drink and instead they will hold a debate.	因此他们决定,这个党的人决定他们不喝酒,而是举行辩论.
67	And the question is, what is the topic of that debate?	问题是,辩论的主题是什么?
68	And one of the young aristocratic men who's at the party is called Phaedrus,	一个年轻的贵族参加派对的人叫费德鲁斯
69	a man who also gives his name to a dialogue, a very famous dialogue by Plato, the Phaedrus,	一个也给对话起名的人柏拉图的著名对话
70	which deals with matters of love to some degree.	在某种程度上处理爱情问题
71	So clearly the real Phaedrus was someone who was quite keen on the notion of what is love.	很明显,真正的费德鲁斯是一个非常热衷于爱的概念的人。
72	And Phaedrus suggests at the beginning of this dialogue that the topic should be Eros.	而费德鲁斯在这场对话开始时提出,这个话题应该是埃罗斯.
73	Eros is the Greek god of love, Eros.	埃罗斯是希腊爱神埃罗斯.
74	It's also the Greek word for passionate love.	这也是希腊语中充满激情的爱情一词.
75	So there are a few words which are in common use in ancient Greek.	因此在古希腊语中有一些常用的词.
76	Philia means friendship generally.	菲利亚泛指友谊.
77	Agape is a word which means a kind of affectionate love.	阿加佩是一个词,意思是某种亲切的爱情.
78	But Eros means very specifically erotic love.	但爱罗斯的意思非常具体
79	That's where we get our word erotic.	我们从这里得到色情这个词
80	And Eros is a god worshipped amongst the Greek gods in the pantheon of the Greek gods.	埃罗斯是希腊神祇中被崇拜的神祇
81	Variously thought of as a young boy, he comes to be known as Cupid by the Romans.	各种想法都认为他是一个小男孩,他逐渐被罗马人称为丘比特.
82	And he may have been thought of as a slightly older and more venerable god as well.	他可能也被认为是一个年纪稍大,更可敬的神.
83	In fact, some of the debate that goes on in the symposium is about how old this god is.	事实上,在座谈会上进行的一些辩论是关于这个神多大了.
84	But the fact is Eros is the personification of passionate love for the Greeks.	但事实是埃罗斯是对希腊人的热情爱的化身.
85	And Phaedrus says all the gods have had hymns written about them.	而费德鲁斯说,所有的神灵都写了赞美诗.
86	So many famous people have had eulogies made about them.	如此众多的名人都为他们制造了尤洛吉。
87	But there isn't one about Eros.	但埃罗斯没有
88	We just don't find one.	我们只是找不到一个。
89	Not quite true in fact as far as we can tell.	据我们所知,事实并非如此。
90	But more or less perhaps for his purposes he's saying Eros the god has not been sufficiently praised.	但是也许为了他的目的,他说神的爱罗斯没有得到足够的赞扬.
91	So he says let's debate.	所以他说我们辩论一下
92	Let's talk about what Eros really is.	让我们来谈谈伊罗斯的真面目
93	In fact the way he puts it is let us each give speeches in praise of the god of love.	事实上,他所说的方式是,让我们各自发表演说,赞扬爱神。
94	Now that is how it is set up.	现在它就是这样建立的。
95	You have to imagine though that what Plato has done is he's created this literary fiction.	你得想象一下柏拉图所做的就是他创造了这个文学小说
96	It may well be based on a reality.	它很可能是基于现实。
97	There were often symposia drinking parties.	研讨会上经常举行饮酒派对。
98	And in those parties ancient Athenian men certainly did gather and debated all sorts of topics.	在那些聚会中,古老的雅典人确实聚集并辩论了各种话题。
99	Undoubtedly that's the case.	毫无疑问,这是事实。
100	There may well have been an actual symposium with Socrates and the other characters in the symposium present in 416 BC at the house of Agathon.	很可能在公元前416年在阿加顿家举行的专题讨论会上,与苏格拉底和其他人物举行了一次实际的专题讨论会。
101	We don't know.	我们不知道。
102	In a way it doesn't really matter.	从某种意义上说,这并不重要。
103	So what Plato has done is he's used this scenario to get a group of men,	所以柏拉图所做的就是他利用这个情景来得到一群人
104	and it has to be men for cultural reasons which I'll say a little bit about,	因为文化原因,他必须是男人我想说一点
105	to gather together and to come up with different ideas of how they think of love.	聚集在一起提出他们如何思考爱情的不同想法
106	And of course there's an equivocation throughout because love is both the god love	当然整个过程都有些模棱两可因为爱情是上帝的爱
107	and it is the emotion or the feeling or the affect or whatever you want to call the psychological element that we call love.	情感感觉影响或者任何你想称之为心理元素的东西我们称之为爱
108	So it is both those things at the same time which makes it quite difficult to translate.	因此,正是这两种东西同时出现,使得翻译相当困难。
109	Because on the one moment you know someone is saying that love is the youngest and the most beautiful of the gods.	因为那一刻你知道有人说爱是神中最年轻最美的
110	And another moment someone is saying is love is a principle of universal harmony.	另一瞬间有人说爱是普遍和谐的原则。
111	So both of these words, both of those phrases have the subject eros or eros.	所以这两个词,这两个短语都有主题eros或eros.
112	And so one has to ask oneself how best to translate that word at any particular point.	因此,我们必须问自己,在任何特定的时刻,如何最好地翻译这个词。
113	So just before we get into the actual debate, I should say something about the way Plato creates this dialogue.	所以,就在我们进入实际辩论之前,我应该谈谈柏拉图创建这种对话的方式。
114	It begins with someone just saying, look, I can tell you the story of the symposium because I've often told it before.	首先有人说我可以告诉你研讨会的故事因为我以前经常讲这个故事
115	And this is a person who is called Apollodorus.	这个叫做阿波罗多鲁斯的人
116	We don't know very much about him.	我们不太了解他
117	He was one of the followers of Socrates, but this is his narrative.	他是苏格拉底的追随者之一,但这是他的叙述.
118	So the symposium is presented as Apollodorus saying, I've told you this story before.	因此,研讨会被呈现为阿波罗多鲁斯说,我以前也讲过这个故事。
119	I've told it before, but I will tell it.	我早就说过了但我会告诉你的
120	I'll tell it again.	复说'言.
121	And this is how I'll tell it to you.	这就是我告诉你的方式。
122	And I know it because I was told it by another man who was present many years ago at this symposium.	我知道,因为另一个人告诉我的, 他很多年前就在场了。
123	His name was Aristodemus.	他的名字叫阿里斯托德穆斯。
124	Again, we know very little about this other person.	再说一遍,我们对另一个人所知甚少。
125	And he says, I will tell you what he told me, more or less, as far as I remember it and as far as he remembers it.	他说,我会告诉你他告诉我的, 多少,我记得它,他记得它。
126	Now, you ask yourself, what is going on here?	现在,你问自己, 这是怎么回事?
127	Why is Plato distancing the story to this degree?	为什么柏拉图将故事分解到这个程度?
128	And I think there are various answers, of which the most plausible one is you're not meant to take this as a verbatim, true, precise, detailed account of a party that actually happened,	我认为有各种各样的答案其中最合理的答案是你不应该把这看作是一个真实的准确的详细的描述
129	because it's someone remembering what someone else said and trying to repeat it to someone else.	因为有人记得别人说的话试图重复给别人听
130	And that is how it is set up.	这就是它是如何设置的。
131	And so he then proceeds to tell his unnamed interlocutor the story of the symposium, of the party.	然后,他开始告诉他的无名对话者研讨会的故事,党。
132	And then the dialogue itself falls into three fairly clearly demarcated sectioners,	然后,对话本身分为三个相当明确的分界线,
133	because what happens is five individual men, beginning with Phaedrus, give their speeches in praise of the god Eros.	因为所发生的是5个人,从费德鲁斯开始,发表演讲来赞美神的爱罗斯.
134	And although it's largely, as I say, equivocated between the notion of love and the god himself,	虽然我说过爱的概念和神本身之间基本上有异想天开
135	in the end, each of these speeches are very much talking about Eros as a character, as well as Eros as a particular kind of force of love.	归根结底,这些演讲中的每一篇都非常频繁地谈到爱罗斯作为人物,以及爱罗斯作为一种特殊的爱力.
136	So speeches of praise by the five, and that's the first section.	故五者发言赞叹,此为第一节.
137	And then Socrates, who's at the center of this dialogue, so he has been invited to this symposium.	然后是苏格拉底,谁是这个对话的中心,所以他被邀请参加这个座谈会.
138	He's turned up a bit late as it happens, and he has agreed with the other men that they're going to not to drink, but they're going to have this discussion.	他出现的时候有点晚,他同意了其他人的意见,他们不会喝酒,但他们会有这样的讨论.
139	Socrates says to them, OK, now it's my turn, and I'm not used to just giving speeches of praise of this kind.	苏格拉底对他们说,OK,现在轮到我了, 我不习惯只发表这种赞美的演讲。
140	And it's not the way I do things.	这不是我做事的方式
141	I like to tell the truth.	我喜欢说实话。
142	So what I'm going to do is tell you the truth about love.	所以我要告诉你爱情的真相
143	So the second section is Socrates telling us about a doctrine of love that he claims to be the truth.	因此第二节是苏格拉底告诉我们一个他声称是事实的爱情学说.
144	Now, this is really fascinating, because one of the things that we know about Socrates, that Plato tells us in no uncertain terms, is that he claims not to know.	这真的很有趣,因为我们对苏格拉底的了解之一柏拉图毫不含糊地告诉我们他声称不知道。
145	The one thing I know, he says, is that I do not know.	他说,我知道的就是我不知道
146	So it is very unusual, and I think should be remarked upon, that here he says very clearly, I do know.	因此,这是非常不寻常的,我想应该说,他在这里非常明确地说,我知道。
147	I do know the answer.	我确实知道答案
148	Now, this is someone who is always looking for answers into massive questions.	现在,这个人总是在寻找对大问题的答案。
149	What is beauty?	什么是美丽?
150	What is knowledge?	知识是什么?
151	What is friendship?	什么是友谊?
152	And he claims not to know, and many of Plato's dialogues discuss those things, in which Socrates is a central interlocutor, and end with what is called aporia, uncertainty.	他声称不知道,许多柏拉图的对话都讨论了这些事情,其中苏格拉底是中心对话者,最后以所谓的aporia,不确定性结束.
153	So the key thing about Socrates as a philosopher that comes across in Plato's dialogues from a purely biographical point of view is that he wasn't keen just to give us answers.	所以苏格拉底作为哲学家的关键是在柏拉图的对话中从纯粹的传记性观点来看苏格拉底并不想给我们答案
154	In that respect, he differed from the philosophers who came before him, the so-called presocratics, who set up the world in certain ways and said, the answer is, the world consists of water.	在这方面,他不同于在他之前的哲学家,即所谓的先天论者,他们以某些方式建立了世界,并说,答案是,世界由水组成.
155	That's what Thales, the first philosopher, said, or the world consists of atoms.	这就是第一位哲学家Thales所说的,或者世界由原子组成.
156	That's what Democritus said.	德摩克利图斯就是这样说的.
157	Socrates is not interested in telling us what the world is or what any aspect of it is.	苏格拉底不关心告诉我们世界是什么,什么是世界的任何方面。
158	He's not dogmatic.	他不是教条主义的。
159	He is a questioner.	他是一个问客。
160	And some people think that the word to question in Greek, erotan, is deliberately set up.	而有些人认为,用希腊语质疑的词erotan是故意设置的.
161	There's a deliberate kind of punning between to ask the question and the word eros, meaning love.	在问问题和eros这个词之间有某种刻意的调子,意为爱情.
162	So in a sense, eros itself begs the question of what it is.	因此,从某种意义上说,埃罗斯本身就乞求它是什么的问题.
163	Whether that's true or not, I'm a little bit skeptical of it.	无论这是否属实,我都有点怀疑.
164	The fact is that Socrates is indeed a questioner, and he rarely tells us that he knows something.	事实是苏格拉底的确是一个质疑者,他很少告诉我们他知道一些事情.
165	I mean, he does occasionally, but in this particular case to say, I know what love is and I'm going to tell it to you is extraordinary.	我的意思是,他偶尔这样做, 但在这个特殊的情况下说, 我知道什么是爱, 我要告诉你它是非凡的。
166	But the reason he does that, he says, is I learned the truth about love from someone else.	但他这么做的原因是我从别人那里学到了爱情的真相
167	So he's not claiming knowledge that he himself has come up with, but knowledge that he learned from another person.	所以他不是在声称他自己已经想到的知识,而是他从另一个人那里学到的知识.
168	And that person is a woman.	那个人是个女人
169	And this is where it gets really weird and wonderful, given the Greek cultural background.	由于希腊的文化背景,这里变得非常奇怪和美妙。
170	It's very rare for men to learn from women.	男子从女学得甚少.
171	But Socrates claims, I learned this truth from a woman.	但苏格拉底声称我从一个女人那里学到了这个真理
172	And he gives her name as Diotima.	他给她起名叫狄奥蒂玛
173	That's our English pronunciation of Diotima, which is the Greek for honored by Zeus, Zeus being the chief of the Greek gods.	这是我们的英语发音Diotima,这是宙斯所尊崇的希腊语,宙斯是希腊神的酋长.
174	So this woman who is honored by Zeus or called honored by Zeus, Diotima, is the purveyor of the doctrine of love to Socrates.	因此这个被宙斯尊崇或被宙斯称为尊崇的女人,狄奥蒂玛(Diotima),是向苏格拉底传授爱的学说的人.
175	And he says he used to visit her in the old days.	他说他以前经常来看她
176	And he clearly explains that he did so more than once.	他清楚解释他不止一次这样做。
177	And she gave him this doctrine.	她给了他这个理论。
178	So this sounds very biographical.	这听起来很传记。
179	But the problem scholars have had is that we don't know anything of this Diotima apart from what we learn in the symposium.	但是,学者们曾经遇到的问题是,我们除了在座谈会上学到的东西之外,对这个Diotima一无所知.
180	She's generally been assumed to be a fictional creation of Plato's, partly because we don't know anything about her,	一般认为她是柏拉图的虚构创作, 部分因为我们对她一无所知,
181	but also because we tend to think Socrates is unlikely to have learned about such an important feature of life as love from a woman.	但也因为我们倾向于认为苏格拉底不可能了解生命中如此重要的特征就像女人的爱
182	How did this happen, people ask.	人们问,这是怎么发生的。
183	So this is, let's say, for some reason, and people have come up with ingenious reasons why it should be the case,	因此,让我们说,出于某种原因, 人们已经想到了聪明的原因,为什么应该是这样,
184	Plato wanted the central doctrine of love put in Socrates' mouth to be that of a woman.	柏拉图希望苏格拉底口中的爱的核心理论是女性的.
185	And the sort of reasons people have come up with for that is they say, well, you know, obviously the female element is creative.	人们想出的原因就是说,很明显,女性元素是创造性的。
186	And a lot of what Socrates says is that love is a creative force.	苏格拉底说,爱是一种创造性的力量。
187	So, you know, maybe that is why he has to put it in the mouth of woman.	所以,你知道,也许这就是为什么他必须把它放在女人的嘴。
188	I don't find any of that plausible, frankly.	老实说,我不觉得有这种可能性
189	I mean, it's part of it, perhaps, but that's not why I think Plato puts the doctrine in the mouth of this woman.	我的意思是,这是它的一部分,也许, 但这不是为什么我认为柏拉图把学说在这个女人的嘴。
190	He actually introduces her, Socrates, and he says she was a very clever woman from Mantenaea,	他实际上介绍她,苏格拉底他说她是一个非常聪明的女人来自曼特纳埃亚,
191	which is a city in the Peloponnese in southern Greece.	这是希腊南部伯罗奔尼撒的一座城市。
192	And he says she was clever in all sorts of things.	他说她很聪明
193	And among other things, when the Athenians were sacrificing to avert the plague,	在雅典人为避免瘟疫而牺牲的时候
194	she managed to arrange for the plague to be postponed by 10 years.	她设法把瘟疫推迟十年
195	So not only is she introduced as someone who has taught him on a number of occasions,	所以她不仅被介绍为曾经教过他很多次的人
196	she's introduced as someone who has done a very specific thing in the history of Athens.	她被介绍为一位在雅典历史上做过非常特殊的事情的人
197	Again, a specific thing of which we have no other knowledge apart from this dialogue.	再说一遍,除了这一对话之外,我们没有任何其他知识。
198	But the question is, why would Plato create this woman and this fiction	但问题是柏拉图为什么要创造这个女人和这个虚构
199	and then give a very specific historical episode?	然后给一个非常具体的历史插曲?
200	So the Great Plague of Athens, we know, took place in 430 to 29 BC.	因此,雅典大瘟疫,我们知道,发生在公元前430年到29年.
201	That year was when the Great Plague struck Athens	当年大瘟疫袭击雅典
202	and wiped out something like a third of the population of the city.	并消灭了城市三分之一的人口
203	And to say that a woman or anybody was arranging sacrifices to avert it 10 years earlier	并说一个女人或任何人安排牺牲来避免10年前
204	suggests that something happened, perhaps 10 years before,	说明在十年前发生了一些事情
205	that might have provoked a plague, but that the plague did not transpire.	但瘟疫并没有发生
206	What happened was that 10 years after that, when it did transpire,	之后的10年里事情确实发生了
207	people could look back and say, ah, the things they did, the sacrifices they made at that time	人们可以回头看,然后说,啊,他们做了什么, 他们牺牲了那个时候
208	held it off for 10 years, but now, unfortunately, it's happening.	但不幸的是,它正在发生
209	So it puts the date 440 to 439 into our mind,	因此,它把日期 440到439 在我们的脑海,
210	and any ancient historian asking what happened in 440 to 439	问440年到439年发生了什么
211	immediately knows that that was the date at which the leading citizen of Athens, Pericles,	即刻知道那是雅典主要公民佩里克斯的那一天
212	invaded the island of Samos, allegedly at the instigation of his wife or mistress,	入侵萨摩斯岛,据称是在他的妻子或情妇的怂恿下,
213	a woman called Aspasia, who came from the rival city of Samos, which was called Miletus.	一个叫阿斯帕西娅的女人她来自对立的萨摩斯城市叫做米莱图斯
214	So on the coast of Asia Minor, modern Turkey, the city of Miletus is opposite to the island of Samos,	因此在现代土耳其的亚细亚海岸,米莱图斯市与萨摩斯岛相对.
215	and they were trading rivals, quite fierce trading rivals.	他们是贸易对手, 相当激烈的贸易对手。
216	Aspasia, Pericles' beloved wife, came from Miletus and lived with him	阿斯帕西亚,佩里克斯心爱的妻子,来自米莱图斯,和他一起生活
217	and had been with him in 440 for about five years	在440年和他在一起约5年
218	and was said to have persuaded him to make war on Samos.	据说他说服他向萨摩斯开战.
219	Now, that's obviously a bit of a tale, but the implication is that she was an influential woman	现在,这显然是一个小故事, 但这意味着她是一个有影响力的女人
220	and that when Pericles went to war on Samos, she was seen to be, perhaps completely unfairly, associated with that.	而当Pericles去向Samos开战时, 她被认为,也许完全不公平, 与此有关联。
221	Now, the point about that conquest, I mean, Athens at the time was building its empire,	现在,关于征服的要点, 我的意思是,当时的雅典正在建立它的帝国,
222	and Samos was originally an ally, and it then decided to secede from the alliance	而萨摩斯原本是盟友,后来决定脱离同盟.
223	that the Athenians had made with other Greek city-states in order to fight the possibility of a Persian invasion,	雅典人为了对抗波斯人入侵的可能性与其他希腊城邦合作
224	another one after the Persian Wars of 490 to 479.	在波斯战争490年到479年之后又发生一起.
225	So that earlier in the century, the Athenians and the other Greeks had fought off the Persians	因此本世纪早些时候,雅典人和其他希腊人已经与波斯人进行了战斗
226	and they'd created an alliance, a league, to do so again.	他们建立了一个联盟,一个联盟, 这样做再次。
227	Well, Samos had been part of that, had decided to move away.	萨摩斯也参与其中决定搬走
228	Pericles goes to Samos to invade it in 440 to 439,	佩里克斯在440年到439年前往萨摩斯入侵.
229	and apparently we're given some quite detailed reports of this.	显然我们得到了一些非常详细的报告。
230	So apparently it was a very brutal campaign by land and sea.	很明显,这是一个非常残酷的海陆战役。
231	He besieged the city with ships, he sent the soldiers in, eventually the Athenians won,	他用船包围了这座城市他派了士兵进来最终雅典人获胜
232	and Pericles had the commanders of the Samians strung up on crosses,	佩里克斯把萨米亚人的指挥官吊在十字架上
233	and he said that after, I think it was 10 days, that if they were still alive, poor things,	他说过了10天后如果他们还活着可怜的东西
234	they should be clubbed to death, and their bodies should be thrown out	他们应该被吊死,他们的尸体应该被扔出去
235	of the, they were crucified in the central square in Miletus, and they should thrown out and left unburied.	他们被钉在米利图斯的中央广场上,他们应当被抛出,被弃绝。
236	Okay, so this is what we learn about the Samian campaign of 440,	好吧,这就是我们学到的关于萨米安440运动,
237	but actually anyone who knows anything about the Greek culture knows that not burying your enemy,	但实际上任何知道希腊文化的人都知道不埋葬你的敌人
238	particularly if it's a Greek enemy, and these Samians were Greeks, fellow Greeks,	特别是如果它是希腊的敌人这些萨米亚人是希腊人,希腊人
239	is one of the most sacrilegious things you can do.	这是你所能做的最神圣的事情之一。
240	It's going to lead to divine disfavour, and is likely,	这会导致神圣的厌恶, 而且很可能,
241	and one of the signs of that divine disfavour is likely to be a plague.	而这种神圣的不悦的征兆之一很可能是瘟疫
242	So in a sense Pericles was doing something in 440 to 439,	所以从某种意义上说,Pericles在440到439年做了一些事情.
243	which the Athenians, his own side, would look at and say,	以物配主的,
244	are you sure this is wise, because the gods don't favour a commander who doesn't bury his enemies,	你确定这是明智的, 因为神不赞成一个指挥官谁不埋葬他的敌人,
245	and they might inflict punishment upon us, and that punishment would be perhaps in the form of a plague.	他们或许要惩罚我们,而刑罚或许是瘟疫。
246	We had better do something to expiate this crime, how about we sacrifice to the gods?	我们最好做点什么来赎罪我们向神献祭怎么样?
247	If that happened and no plague transpired, people would have said,	如果发生这种情况,没有瘟疫发生, 人们会说,
248	we got away with it, Pericles did that terrible thing, but we appeased the gods with our sacrifices,	我们逃脱了它,佩里克斯做了那可怕的事情, 但我们安抚了神的牺牲,
249	and it's fine until ten years later the plague does happen,	直到十年后瘟疫降临
250	and in the great plague of Athens, 429, Pericles himself dies.	而在雅典的大瘟疫中,429年,佩里克斯本人死亡.
251	He died from the plague, as indeed did both his two older sons.	他死于瘟疫,他的两个大儿子都死于瘟疫。
252	I mean the whole family was destroyed by the plague.	我是说全家都被瘟疫毁了
253	Now people might have then said, well this was delayed punishment for what he did in 440 to 439 on Samos,	现在人们可能已经说, 那么这是推迟惩罚他440到439年在萨摩斯所做的,
254	and the one wonderful piece of evidence that goes to corroborate that is that Sophocles,	证明索福克莱斯的证据
255	not to be confused with Socrates, Sophocles the Tragedian wrote his play Antigone in precisely that year.	为了避免与苏格拉底混淆,悲剧者索福克莱斯(Sophocles the Tragedian)正是在当年写了他的剧本Antigone.
256	Sophocles himself was a general, a strategos, he was a commander who went with Pericles	索福克勒斯本人是一位将军,一位战略家,他是一个指挥官,他和佩里克斯一起去了
257	and partook in the invasion and conquest of the island of Samos,	并参与入侵和征服萨摩斯岛,
258	but he came back and he wrote the play Antigone,	但他回来了,他写了剧本Antigone,
259	and the Antigone is all about this young princess who insists on burying the enemy of her state, which is Thebes,	而安提戈尼号则与这位年轻的公主有关她坚持要埋葬她的国家的敌人
260	even though the commander, the king of the state, Creon, says he is to be thrown out unburied.	虽统帅,州王克烈,言将未葬而逐之.
261	She actually says, no, I've got to bury him, and the chorus say, without burial there will be plague.	她实际上说,不,我必须埋葬他, 和合唱说,不埋葬, 会有瘟疫。
262	So it kind of all comes together beautifully.	因此,所有的东西都变得非常美丽。
263	A man who had seen at first hand what had happened on Samos writes a play, he happens to be a great playwright as well as a general,	一个亲眼目睹了萨摩斯事件的人写了一出戏他恰好是一个伟大的剧作家和一个将军
264	and he tells us that there might well have been expected to be a plague.	他告诉我们很可能是瘟疫
265	Well, there wasn't.	没有
266	Sacrifices according to Plato were made, the plague was delayed,	根据柏拉图的记载瘟疫被推迟了
267	and the sacrifices were instigated, he says, by this clever woman, Diotima, honored by Zeus.	他说,这个聪明的女人,狄奥蒂玛鼓动了牺牲,宙斯为之敬佩。
268	Well, Zeus is not only the chief of the gods, but was famously the nickname of none other than Pericles himself,	宙斯不仅是众神的首领也是佩里克斯本人的绰号
269	leading citizen of Athens, thundering lawmaker.	雅典的主要公民,雷电的造法者。
270	They said he made his laws like Zeus the thunderer, he was a great orator.	他们说他像宙斯一样制定法律他是一个伟大的演说家
271	That's how you made laws in Athens, you give a narration, you say, I want this law to be proposed.	这就是你如何在雅典制定法律, 你给出一个叙述, 你说,我希望这个法律被提出。
272	Okay, so he is Zeus, and in the comic playwrights, which are like the comic reviews of their day,	他就是宙斯在漫画剧作家中就像他们今天的漫画评论
273	he is Zeus and Aspasia, his wife, I think she's his wife for reasons I'll go into, rather than mistress,	他是宙斯和阿斯帕西娅,他的妻子, 我想她是他的妻子的原因我会去,而不是情妇,
274	but people have often said she was just a mistress, but his companion Aspasia is Hera, who is the wife of Zeus.	但人们经常说她只是一个情妇,但他的同伴阿斯帕西亚是赫拉,她是宙斯的妻子.
275	So in the comic plays, they are set up as husband and wife, Zeus and Hera.	因此在漫画剧中,他们被设定为夫妻,宙斯和赫拉.
276	And one of the things we learn from the historian Plutarch is that Pericles gave excessive and public honor to Aspasia.	我们从历史学家Plutarch那里学到的一件事就是,Pericles给了阿斯帕西亚过度和公开的荣誉.
277	So she came from, as I said, the city of Miletus in Asia Minor, which meant she was a non-Athenian woman.	所以,正如我所说的,她来自亚洲小米勒图斯市, 这意味着她是一个非雅典妇女。
278	The Athenians were quite xenophobic in that respect.	雅典人在这方面相当仇外。
279	If you weren't an Athenian, you couldn't be a full citizen.	如果你不是雅典人, 你不可能是一个完整的公民。
280	For example, if you were a non-Athenian woman, you might be thought of as a prostitute,	例如,如果你是非雅典女人, 你可能会被认为是妓女,
281	as indeed the comic playwrights implied that Aspasia was.	正如漫画剧作家暗示阿斯帕西亚是。
282	The evidence that we now have is that she actually came from an elite Athenian background.	我们现在掌握的证据是她其实来自雅典的精英背景
283	Her family had ended up, for one reason or another, in Miletus,	她的家人最终在米列图斯以某种原因
284	which was a Greek city that was very closely aligned actually with Athens.	它是一个希腊城市,实际上与雅典紧密结合。
285	And then she had come back to Athens with her sister's husband when she was about 20, and that was in about 450 BC.	后来她带着姐姐的丈夫回到雅典,大约20岁,那是在公元前450年左右.
286	Five years later, we know she was married to or with Pericles.	五年后我们知道她和Pericles结婚了
287	He had fallen in love with her, and Plutarch tells us that he gave her tremendous honor.	他爱上了她 Plutarch告诉我们他给了她巨大的荣誉
288	He even embraced her in public, which was very unusual for ancient Athens.	他甚至公开拥抱她,这对古代雅典来说非常不寻常.
289	So we have this picture of a man who is called Zeus giving tremendous honor to his wife Aspasia.	因此,我们有这张照片一个男人叫宙斯给予他的妻子阿斯帕西亚极大的荣誉。
290	And then Plato gives us a name honored by Zeus, Diotima,	然后柏拉图给了我们一个被宙斯,狄奥蒂玛尊崇的名字,
291	and it's hard not to make the connection that if anyone in 440, after the conquest of Samos,	如果440年有人征服了萨摩斯
292	had been interested in helping Pericles to overcome this impression of someone who had committed a crime that would cause a plague,	曾有兴趣帮助Pericles 克服这种对某人的印象此人犯下了将引发瘟疫的罪行,
293	Aspasia was the person who would have done that.	阿斯帕西娅本来会这么做的
294	And she was clever in this and many other things, says Plato.	柏拉图说,她很聪明
295	Well, one thing that she was supposedly clever in, Aspasia, that is, not Diotima, was in eloquence.	有件事她应该很聪明,阿斯帕西娅, 也就是说,不是狄奥蒂玛, 是在口语。
296	So we have a whole dialogue by Plato called the Monexinus in which Socrates is taught by a woman.	因此,我们有一个完全的对话由柏拉图称为Monexinus, 其中苏格拉底教一个女人。
297	Isn't it strange that in all the 35 dialogues, the only teachers of Socrates are in the symposium where it's a woman called Diotima	苏格拉底唯一一位老师在座谈会上有个叫狄奥蒂玛的女人
298	and in the Monexinus where she is teaching him how to give a speech.	在莫内西努斯她教他如何演讲
299	And it is Aspasia.	这是阿斯帕西亚。
300	He actually names Aspasia as the teacher in Monexinus,	他实际上将阿斯帕西亚命名为莫内希纳斯的老师,
301	which means, of course, that the question arises, why doesn't he do the same, if I'm right, and name her in the symposium?	也就是说,当然, 问题出现, 为什么他不这样做, 如果我是对的,
302	And I think there are clear answers to that.	我认为这是有明确答案的。
303	I'll leave that historical and biographical element there for the moment.	我暂不提历史和传记
304	But I'll just say Socrates gives the doctrine that he claims he learned from this clever woman when he visited her from time to time as a younger man.	但我只想说,苏格拉底给了学说,他声称他从这位聪明的女人身上学到了这个学说,当时他作为年轻男子不时拜访她.
305	And that doctrine essentially consists of the idea that love begins with physical attraction and it then moves upwards,	而这个学说基本上是由爱从身体吸引开始,然后向上移动的想法,
306	which is elevated to, for example, love of things such as your city.	它被提升为,例如, 爱象你的城市。
307	And then further than that, love of what is itself good and fine and beautiful.	更进一步,爱的东西本身是好的,好的,美丽的。
308	And ends up with being the, on the one hand, it's a creative force which wants you to perpetuate yourself	最后,一方面,它是一个创造力想要你维持自己
309	either by giving birth to offspring, physical offspring, or to intellectual offspring.	要么是生出后代,自然后代,要么是智力后代.
310	And Plato makes that clear that it could be either, which allows for homosexual love because they're not going to have babies,	柏拉图明确指出,它可以是要么, 允许同性恋爱,因为他们不会生孩子,
311	but they're going to write books and have thoughts and so on.	但他们会写书思考等等
312	So that is the doctrine she gives.	这就是她给出的理论。
313	It's called the ladder of love.	谓爱之阶梯.
314	And you go up the ladder of love and that love at its highest is essentially not a sexual thing in our sense.	你走上爱的阶梯爱的最高点本质上不是我们意义上的性事
315	It's to do with creativity and to do with the vision of beauty and truth.	与创造力有关,与美与真理的愿景有关.
316	This is the platonic idea of the forms.	这是形式上的柏拉图主义思想.
317	It's not something Socrates ever promoted,	这不是苏格拉底所提倡的
318	but it's Plato's own idea of the transcendent forms that are at the height of knowledge and life.	但它是柏拉图自己对超越性形式的看法,这些形式处于知识和生命的高度.
319	So that's the doctrine she gives that love starts with physical attraction,	这就是她给的理论爱从身体吸引开始,
320	but then moves up to this much more transcendent sphere.	但是,然后移动到这个更加超越的球体。
321	And in doing that, she actually picks up on some of the previous speakers,	在这样做的时候,她实际上取了前面的一些发言者,
322	particularly a doctor called Eric Simikas, who is the third person to speak of the five,	特别是一位叫艾瑞克·西米卡斯的医生他是第三位谈论五人的人
323	and who says that love is a transcendent force of harmonization.	说爱是和谐的超能力
324	So we're already getting some abstraction in the first five speakers,	所以,我们已经得到一些抽象在前五个发言者,
325	and then Socrates picks that up and gives us Diotima's speech in which we head to this very high level of abstraction about love.	然后苏格拉底拿起它,给我们迪奥蒂玛的演讲, 在演讲中,我们走向这个关于爱的高度抽象。
326	And then, so that's the second section, that's Socrates.	然后,这就是第二节,这就是苏格拉底。
327	So we've had the five speakers in the first section,	因此,我们已经有五个发言者在第一节,
328	the Socratic speech, which is the second, and then into the party bursts Alcibiades,	索克拉底的演说,是第二次, 然后在党内,
329	this young, perhaps 40-year-old at the time, general, playboy, an extraordinary character.	这个年轻,也许40岁, 将军,花花公子, 一个非凡的性格。
330	He was about to betray Athens in 416 and go over to the other side.	他准备在416年背叛雅典,到另一边去.
331	He did so, he was then recalled to Athens.	他这样做,然后他被召回雅典。
332	He's a most amazingly colorful character, but he bursts into the party, drunk,	他是一个最惊人的色彩, 但他冲进党,醉,
333	and he says, what's going on?	他说,发生了什么事?
334	Oh, you're all talking about love, I'll tell you about love.	哦,你们都在谈论爱情,我会告诉你爱情。
335	And he then gives the longest speech of the whole dialogue, and it's in praise of Socrates himself.	然后他作了整个对话中最长的演讲,这是在赞扬苏格拉底本人.
336	And he talks about how Socrates saved his life in battle, which goes back again.	他讲述苏格拉底如何在战斗中救了自己的生命,这又回到了过去.
337	So a lot of these themes are connected to the earlier speakers.	因此,很多这些主题都与早期的演讲者有关.
338	And the first speaker, Phaedrus, had said, love is about being prepared to die for your beloved.	第一位演讲者费德鲁斯曾说爱是准备为你爱的人而死
339	This is a military society.	这是一个军事社会。
340	Well, Socrates showed himself to be a lover in that sense	苏格拉底从这个意义上说自己是个情人
341	because he saved Alcibiades' life in battle.	因为他在战场上救了阿尔西比亚德斯
342	And then Alcibiades says he was such a wonderful man, and he had so much courage,	然后阿尔西比亚德斯说他是个很棒的人他有这么多的勇气
343	and he explains his military courage and fortitude, and he says, I tried to seduce him,	他解释他的军事勇气和坚韧, 他说,我试图引诱他,
344	which is a strange thing for this beautiful young man to seduce this older, older man.	这对这个美丽的年轻人来说是件奇怪的事情来引诱这个年长的老人
345	So at the time that he does this, Alcibiades would have been about 20, and Socrates in his 30s.	所以在他这样做的时候,阿尔西比亚德斯大概是20岁,苏格拉底30多岁.
346	And there's no indication that Socrates in his 30s was the kind of rather ugly,	也没有迹象表明苏格拉底30多岁时是个很丑陋的人
347	snub-nosed figure, balding, jowly, that he becomes in his 50s.	荡荡荡秃头 Jowly 他五十多岁了
348	So it's not an absurdity to suggest that the younger man thinks that he can seduce the older man	所以说年轻男人认为他能勾引大男人并不是荒谬
349	at that particular moment.	在那个特殊的时刻
350	But it seems strange, but the point he makes, Alcibiades, is that Socrates didn't touch him,	但是这似乎很奇怪, 但他说的要点,阿尔西比亚德斯, 是苏格拉底没有碰他,
351	wasn't prepared to be seduced physically, because he cared, he says, for my soul, my psyche.	他没准备好被诱惑因为他关心我的灵魂我的心灵
352	And that was what Socrates does.	这就是苏格拉底的工作。
353	He cares about the souls of the people he wants to improve.	他关心想要改善的人的灵魂.
354	And so Alcibiades gives this picture of a man who loves somebody because he wants to improve them.	所以Alcibiades给出了这张照片一个爱一个人的人,因为他想改进他们。
355	And in a way, that is a key element to the way we, I think, should understand love.	从某种意义上说,这是我们理解爱的关键所在。
356	We get it again in the second speech, we get it in Pausanias' speech.	我们在第二次演讲中再次得到它, 我们在Pausanias的演讲中得到它。
357	He says, there are two types of love, there's good and bad love,	他说,有两种类型的爱, 有好的和坏的爱,
358	and the good love is the love where the older man wants to improve the younger man.	善良的爱是年长者想要改善年轻者的爱.
359	The younger man is prepared to learn from the older man.	年少的男子准备向年长的男子学习.
360	So this is within a homosexual context, which amongst the elites of Athens at the time was very straightforward.	所以,这是在同性恋的背景下, 这在当时雅典的精英中是非常直接的。
361	So it was seen as something that could happen, that a younger man might have a relationship with an older one,	因此,它被视为可能发生的事情, 一个年轻人可能与一个年长的人有关系,
362	and that the older one was prepared to help the younger one to learn and to be integrated into high society and so on.	年长者愿意帮助年幼者学习和融入高社会等等。
363	They might have a physical relationship as well, but Pausanias in his speech makes clear	他们可能也有肉体上的关系,但是Pausanias在他的演讲中明确表示
364	that can only happen if it's something both sides are happy with	只有在双方都满意的情况下才会发生
365	and that it is done with the intent of a permanent relationship.	而且这样做是为了建立永久关系。
366	And as it happens, Pausanias, the speaker, is in a permanent relationship of love with the host of the party, Agathon.	而恰如其分,演讲者帕乌萨尼亚斯与宴会主持人阿加顿有着永久的爱情关系.
367	So he's trying to say, if you're like that, then sexual relations between the younger and the older man are absolutely fine.	所以,他想说,如果你是这样, 那么年轻人和老人的性关系是绝对好的。
368	Anyway, so Alcibiades is picking up on all these things, and you can see I mentioned this because this is, as I say, it's an artistically arranged dialogue.	总之,阿尔西比亚德斯正在接受所有这些事情, 你可以看到我提到了这一点,因为,正如我所说的,这是一个艺术上安排的对话。
369	If it didn't happen precisely like this, it doesn't matter.	如果事情不是这样发生的那不重要
370	Plato is sowing in themes, and one of the themes is that love is about something higher than purely physical attraction and sexual interaction.	柏拉图在主题上播撒,其中一个主题就是,爱情的内容高于纯粹的物理吸引力和性互动.
371	And of course, that is where we get our word platonic love, our term.	当然,这就是我们得到我们的白话爱情, 我们的期限。
372	You can love someone platonically because you might fancy them, be sexually attracted to them, but you choose not to actually act on it.	你可以去爱一个柏拉图的人, 因为你可能喜欢他们, 被他们性吸引, 但你选择不实际采取行动。
373	And that is what Socrates is said to have done by Alcibiades in his long speech at the end.	这就是苏格拉底在阿尔西比亚德斯最后的长篇演讲中所做的。
374	So those are the three sections of the dialogue, and it leaves us with this extraordinary question.	因此,这是对话的三个部分,它留给我们一个不同寻常的问题。
375	Do we assume that Socrates' doctrine as reported by Socrates is actually the truth?	我们是否假设苏格拉底所报道的苏格拉底学说实际上是事实?
376	And Socrates has said, I'm going to tell you the truth about love, and this is it.	苏格拉底说,我要告诉你爱情的真相,就是这样。
377	There is a bit of question and answer in that particular part of the dialogue.	对话的这一特定部分有一些疑问和答案。
378	So it's not as if D'Artagnan is simply laying out a doctrine.	因此,这并不是说达达尼昂只是提出一个学说.
379	But nonetheless, one could say it is a doctrine that begins with sexual attraction and moves up the ladder,	但是,尽管如此,人们可以说这是一个学说从性吸引力开始,并移动阶梯,
380	not the way that Socrates actually himself would have operated or approved of because he tends to want to leave things as questions.	而不是苏格拉底自己会操作或批准的方式因为他倾向于把事情留作问题
381	So if he says, here's the answer, it's already doing something quite unsocratic.	所以,如果他说,这里的答案, 它已经在做一些相当不冷静的事情。
382	So it's possible that, and some scholars have argued this, that we're not meant to take that central section as being the answer to what love is.	因此,有可能,一些学者认为,我们不应该把中央部分当作什么是爱的答案.
383	And of course, the longest and the last section, culturally in Greek literature, the person who has the last word is the one who wins the argument.	当然,在希腊文学中, 最长的和最后的一节, 在文化上, 有最后一句话的人就是赢得争论的人。
384	So you often find this in Greek tragedies where you have one person arguing one thing and the other person arguing another.	所以,你经常在希腊悲剧中发现这一点, 你有一个人争论一件事,另一个人争论另一件事。
385	And it is the last thing that you hear that wins the argument.	这是你听到的最后一件事赢得了争论。
386	So maybe we could say that because Alcibiades' speech comes last, his is the one that we should go away with as the truth about love, according to Plato.	所以也许我们可以说,因为阿尔西比亚德斯的演讲是最后的, 根据柏拉图的说法,他是作为爱情的真相我们应该去的。
387	So what do we take from that?	那么,我们拿什么呢?
388	We take from it that love is the person you are in love with.	我们从中夺走爱是你所爱的人
389	That is what Alcibiades is telling us.	这就是阿尔西比亚德斯告诉我们的。
390	I'll tell you about love, he says, and he talks about Socrates and he explains why Socrates inspires so much love in him and is such an inspiring person.	我会告诉你爱情,他说, 他谈论苏格拉底, 他解释为什么苏格拉底激励了这么多的爱在他身上,是一个如此鼓舞人心的人。
391	So that finally then is how we might leave the symposium with a lot of questions about what different people have said and how love comes into it.	最后,这就是我们如何离开研讨会, 提出许多关于不同人所说的话, 以及爱情是如何融入其中的问题。
392	But essentially with the thought that all these abstractions and attempts to lay down the law are secondary to the individual relationship with someone who is worthy of love.	但基本上,人们认为所有这些抽象和试图制定法律,对于与值得爱的人的个人关系来说是次要的.
393	And I think that's quite a good point at which Plato should leave us because earlier in the dialogue and amongst the five speeches, we've had the central and perhaps most attractive speech by Aristophanes, who is a comic poet.	我认为,柏拉图应该离开我们,这是一个很好的地方, 因为早些时候,在对话中, 在五场演讲中, 我们有一个中心,也许最有吸引力的演讲由阿里斯托法内斯, 他是一位漫画诗人。
394	And Aristophanes tells a comic story.	而阿里斯托法尼斯讲述了一个漫画故事.
395	He says,	他说,
396	I think that helps us to remember that Pericles was given that nickname.	我想这可以帮助我们记住佩里克斯是那个绰号
397	But the chief of the gods says, I know what I'll do.	但是神的首领说,我知道我会怎么做。
398	I'll split them in two.	我一分为二
399	And so he splits these early human beings into two and they try to get back together and to cling onto each other.	于是他把这些早期的人类分成两部分, 他们试图重归于好,互相依附。
400	And then one half starts dying off and they're always going around looking for their other half.	然后一半开始死亡他们总是四处寻找他们的另一半。
401	Aristophanes说那是爱情
402	We are looking for our other half so that we can return to that original wholeness.	我们正在寻找我们的另一半,以便我们能够回到原来的整体。
403	And that's a very seductive way of thinking about love and one that human beings today might say, oh, well, that's lovely.	这是一个非常诱人的方式思考爱, 和一种人类今天可能说, 哦,嗯,这是可爱的。
404	I'm finding Mr.	我在寻找先生。
405	Right or Mrs.	对,还是夫人
406	Right or whatever it is, the other half.	右或无论是什么,另一半。
407	But actually it doesn't work.	但实际上它不起作用。
408	And Socrates explains why it doesn't work.	而苏格拉底解释为什么它不起作用.
409	You do actually need one half not to be identical to the other half.	你确实需要一半不和另一半一样
410	You do need to have someone who can inspire love and who can draw creativity out of someone else in order for a relationship to work.	你确实需要一个能激发爱的人,并且能从别人身上引出创造力的人,以便一段关系能够工作.
411	So there has to be some kind of unevenness in a relationship for it to work.	所以在关系上必须有某种不平衡,这样它才能发挥作用.
412	And of course, it can go both ways.	当然,它可以走两条路。
413	The older man can learn from the younger one, the young one from the older one.	年长者可以向年幼者学习,年长者可以向年长者学习.
414	But the point is both have to learn and grow together.	但关键在于既要学习,又要一起成长.
415	So it's a seductive idea that love is just finding our other half.	所以,这是一个诱人的想法, 爱只是找到我们的另一半。
416	But what our sobriety shows is that a true lover, as he represents Socrates' being, is someone who will inspire you to be a better person.	但我们的清醒表明一个真正的爱人,当他代表苏格拉底时是一个能激励你成为更好人的人
417	I think I shall stop there.	我想我应该停下来。
418	Thank you.	谢谢
419	Thank you so much, Professor.	谢谢你,教授
420	And I think this is really a fascinating talks.	我认为这真是一个令人着迷的谈话。
421	And because we feel after you introduce the books, we feel that the ancients feel like they're not irrelevant strangers.	因为我们觉得在你介绍这些书之后, 我们觉得古人觉得他们不是无关紧要的陌生人。
422	And they come back to life and have a dialogue with us.	他们复活了,与我们对话。
423	And what we they talk about what we talk today and they care about what we care today.	而我们今天谈论的是什么他们关心我们今天关心什么
424	And so it's fascinating to see the also wrestling with the ideas and confusions that modern people have.	因此,看到现代人与各种思想和困惑相搏是令人着迷的。
425	And so just to carry on the conversation forward, we are delighted to work on Professor Liu Wei, a leading scholar in China of ancient Greek philosophy and Western ethics.	因此,为了继续推进对话,我们高兴地为中国古希腊哲学和西方伦理学的著名学者刘伟教授工作.
426	And so whose research also care covers Aristotle, Machiavelli and modern political thoughts.	他们的研究也涵盖亚里士多德,马基雅维利和现代政治思想。
427	So he will share his reflection and join Professor Denguer to unpack this profound question about love.	因此,他将分享他的思考,并与登格教授一起解开这个关于爱的深刻问题.
428	So please join me in welcoming Professor Liu Wei.	请与我一起欢迎刘伟教授
429	Thank you very much for POP and Yale Beijing Center for organizing this wonderful event.	非常感谢POP和耶鲁北京中心组织这次精彩的活动.
430	And I would like to also thank Professor Denguer to produce together with POP to produce this very lovely book on the symposium.	我也谨感谢登格教授与持久性有机污染物一起制作这本关于专题讨论会的非常可爱的书。
431	I won't share my reflections in such a long time, but I will say a few words and I will ask some questions to Professor Denguer.	在这么长的时间里,我不会分享我的思考,但我会说几句话,我会向登格教授提出一些问题.
432	Questions I always have in mind when I'm reading and teaching the symposium.	我读和教授座谈会时总是想到的问题.
433	First of all, I would like to say to especially to those people who have never really seriously read this dialogue, you really should read it.	首先,我要特别对那些从未真正认真阅读过这一对话的人说,你确实应该阅读。
434	Best of all, to read it from the beginning to the end without any selection.	最妙的是,从头到尾不选读.
435	But if you cannot do that, well, then Professor Denguer already produced the best introduction to this dialogue is very well selected and very accurately translated.	但是,如果你不能做到这一点,那么,登格教授已经为这种对话编写了最好的介绍,是非常有选择的,并且翻译得非常准确。
436	And also with his insightful and masterful introductions to the speech to the speeches of each to the speech of each speakers.	也以他的洞察力和精通的介绍,介绍每个人的发言和每个发言者的发言。
437	It's really, really very nice.	这真的,真的非常好。
438	And when I'm teaching some of the introduction courses to my freshman students, I always think that the symposium is the best introduction to college students and also the best introduction to philosophy as such.	而当我为大一学生讲授一些介绍课程时,我总是认为座谈会是对大学生最好的介绍,也是对哲学本身最好的介绍.
439	Because the freshmen, they are at the age of 18 or 19.	因为新生的年龄是18岁或19岁.
440	They're at the age of full of passion and full of love.	他们的时代充满了激情和爱.
441	And in the symposium, you can certainly see all the possible views, aspects about love we could ever imagine or think about.	在座谈会上,你肯定可以看到所有可能的观点, 关于爱的方面,我们可以想象或思考。
442	I still think so.	我仍然这么认为。
443	When I'm asked about the question about love, I always come back to the symposium to find some clues, find some insights, some suggestions, and it's always very good to contemporary people, I think.	当我被问到关于爱情的问题时,我总是回到座谈会上寻找一些线索,找到一些洞察力,一些建议,我觉得这总是对当代人很好.
444	And also is the best introduction to philosophy because philosophy is the love of wisdom is really all about love and wisdom and Socrates long speech, even if it is not the final words of the symposium, as Professor Denguer just mentioned,	也是哲学的最好介绍因为哲学是智慧的爱真正地是爱和智慧苏格拉底的长篇大论即使这不是研讨会的最后一句话
445	it really presents the most elevated and perhaps almost sublime view of philosophy as such and really push you to the end, to the extreme of this pursuit of wisdom.	它真的展现了哲学中最崇高的,也许几乎是次高的观点, 并真正地将你推向最后, 达到这种追求智慧的极限。
446	So I think every student of philosophy has to read the symposium very carefully.	所以,我认为每个哲学学生都必须非常仔细地阅读座谈会。
447	So I will just begin with that.	所以,我先从这个开始。
448	When I'm teaching or reading the symposium, I always find a lot of fascinating aspects of this dialogue.	当我在教授或阅读座谈会时,我总是会发现这种对话的许多令人着迷的方面.
449	I will ask a few questions to Professor Denguer perhaps to hear your insight about it.	我会向登格教授问几个问题也许是为了听听你的见解
450	The first, I think, also, you discussed this aspect of the dialogue very well in your introductions, is about the relationship or the dialectical movement among different speakers.	第一,我还认为,你在导言中非常详细地讨论了对话的这一方面,是关于不同发言者之间的关系或辩证运动。
451	I think they're very important.	我觉得他们很重要
452	So usually, those speeches are read individually, and we can draw some conclusions from each speech, but you really put them together as a whole.	所以通常,这些演讲是个别地阅读的,我们可以从每次演讲中得出一些结论,但是你确实把它们作为一个整体拼凑在一起.
453	Especially when you introduce the parts of Ozybiades, I think that introduction is really very, very nice to see how this speech combines all the threats of the previous speakers.	特别是当你介绍Ozybiades的部分时, 我认为这个介绍非常非常的,非常愉快地看到这个演讲如何结合了前几位发言者的所有威胁。
454	So I will first of all invite you to say a few more words about that.	因此,我首先请大家就此再讲几句话。
455	So how do you see this web of different speakers and how their themes are linked together into a whole?	那么,你如何看待这些不同的演讲者网络, 以及他们的主题是如何连成整体的?
456	OK, I think this is this is the mark of Plato's artistry that you just think, OK, Phaedrus is saying this, Pausanias is that, Eric Simicsis is that.	好吧,我想这就是柏拉图艺术的标志, 你只是觉得,好吧,费德鲁斯说, 保萨尼亚斯是,埃里克·西米西斯就是那个。
457	But actually, when you start to realize that each of them are giving us some element of truth, it's like the famous story of the elephant and the blind men.	但实际上,当你开始意识到他们每个人都给我们一些真理, 这就像大象和盲人的著名故事。
458	So each of them are feeling something and one feels a trunk and says, an elephant is like a snake, and the other one feels the side and says elephants is like the wall.	所以他们每个人都有某种感觉,一种感觉是树干,说,一只大象就像一条蛇,另一种感觉是侧面,说大象就像墙.
459	They're all right for their own particular perception.	他们对自己的特定感知完全正确.
460	But of course, you know, the whole thing is actually very hard to grasp.	但是,当然,你知道, 整个事情实际上是很难把握的。
461	It's got all these elements to it.	里面有这些元素
462	So let's say I try to summarize these very easily in my book.	因此,我尽量在书中非常容易地总结这些。
463	Let's say Phaedrus is the first speech simply is love is something that you would die for.	假设费德鲁斯是第一篇演讲仅仅是爱情,你会为之而死
464	That's a strange thing to say.	这话真奇怪
465	It makes sense within, you might say, the military context of ancient Athens.	古代雅典的军事背景是有意义的
466	But it also says something about the emotional nature, so that when you are in an extreme of passion, you almost feel as if that is all that matters and that love you would die for.	但它也提到了一些关于情感性质的东西, 所以当你处于极度的激情中时, 你几乎会觉得这才是最重要的, 爱会为你而死。
467	So he's got something there.	所以他有东西在那里。
468	And as I pointed out, that is something that Alcibiades actually tells us Socrates did quite concretely.	正如我所指出,这是阿尔西比亚德斯实际上告诉我们的苏格拉底做了相当具体的事情。
469	He went into the battle to save Alcibiades because he loved him at the risk of his own life.	他为了救阿尔西比亚德斯而投入战斗,因为他爱他冒着自己的生命危险.
470	Similarly, when you have, let's just take another speaker that I haven't mentioned, Agathon, who's the last of the five speakers, who's the host himself.	同样,当你有的时候,让我们请另一位我没有提到的演讲者,阿加顿,他是五位演讲者中最后一位,他本人是主持人.
471	He says love inspires you to be a poet.	他说爱情激励你成为诗人
472	He says when anyone who is in love feels creative, and he himself demonstrates this by coming out with a very poetic speech.	他说,当任何恋爱的人感到有创意时,他自己通过发表非常诗意的演讲来证明这一点.
473	So the idea that love inspires creativity, it's put in a very almost commercial way by Agathon.	因此,爱激发创造力的观念,被阿加顿置于一种几乎商业的方式.
474	You know, I'm a playwright.	我是个剧作家
475	I'm in love and look, I can produce this stuff.	我恋爱了,看,我可以生产这些东西。
476	But actually, it is something that is central to the Diasema doctrine that love is about.	但实际上,爱是 Diasema 学说的核心。
477	The first definition that Diasema gives is it's a giving birth in relation to what is beautiful.	迪亚塞马给出的第一个定义是,它是一个与美丽事物相关的分娩.
478	So the idea is that you see something that is beautiful, you fancy something, and it may be actually not a person.	所以这个想法是,你看到的东西是美丽的,你喜欢的东西, 它可能不是一个人。
479	It might be an idea that is beauty.	这可能是一个想法是美丽的。
480	But that idea inspires you to be creative, to give birth in a metaphorical way.	但是,这个想法激励你创造力,以隐喻的方式生育.
481	And so wanting to be creative in one's life, it's something, interestingly, that is less obvious about what happened in Alcibiades' own life.	所以想在一个人的生活中发挥创造力, 有趣的是,对于阿尔西比亚德斯自己的生活中所发生的事情, 这一点并不那么明显。
482	But he makes the point that when he was with Socrates, he felt he became a better person.	但他指出,当他和苏格拉底在一起时,他觉得自己成为一个更好的人.
483	But when he wasn't in his presence, he strayed.	但当他不在时,他迷路了.
484	And so this is perhaps partly Plato's own apologia for the fact that Alcibiades didn't end up being a particularly admirable Athenian.	所以这也许是柏拉图自己的歉意因为阿尔西比亚德斯最终并不是一个特别令人钦佩的雅典人
485	But, you know, he was trying to say that in relation to the person who you love, you are creative and you do good things.	但是,你知道,他试图说, 关于你所爱的人, 你是创造性的,你做好事。
486	So all of these strands, as you say, threads, they are sewn together so cleverly by Plato that one can almost miss it if you just read it speech by speech.	所以所有这些线条,如你说的,线条, 它们被柏拉图巧妙地缝合在一起, 以至于人们几乎会错过它,如果你只是用语言来读它。
487	I totally agree.	我完全同意你的观点。
488	OK, well, the second question is a little complicated.	第二个问题有点复杂。
489	It's about Aristophanes and Agathon.	是关于阿里斯托法内斯和阿加顿的.
490	As you mentioned, one of them is a comic writer, the other is a tragedian.	正如你提到的,其中一个是漫画作家,另一个是流浪汉.
491	But when I read it, I always feel that Aristophanes' speech is more like a piece of tragedy, but Agathon's speech is more like a comedy.	但当我读到它时,我总是觉得阿里斯托法内斯的演讲更像是一部悲剧片,但阿加顿的演讲更像是一部喜剧.
492	I'll explain why.	我来解释原因
493	So the central theme in Aristophanes' speech is hubris and God's punishment of hubris, which is the central theme of Greek tragedies.	因此阿里斯托法内斯演讲的中心主题是傲慢和上帝对傲慢的惩罚,这是希腊悲剧的中心主题.
494	Almost every tragedy has something to do with hubris.	几乎每个悲剧都与傲慢有关.
495	And this is the first aspect.	这是第一个方面。
496	The second one is after this punishment, when the bowman has been split into half and each of them longs for the other half of his own.	其二是此刑之后,当弓人已分为一半,每半人各自渴望另一半自己.
497	And when they find someone, they feel like the other half of himself or herself, they will hug together and without leaving each other.	而当他们找到一个人,他们感觉自己或自己的另一半,他们会拥抱在一起,而不离开对方.
498	And only after the second operation, let's say the turning of the genitals, they can enjoy a temporary enjoyment and then separate and do their own work.	而只有在第二次手术之后,比如生殖器的转动,它们可以享受暂时的享受,然后分开并做自己的工作.
499	But they still long for the other half.	但他们仍然渴望另一半。
500	And we can imagine how difficult to find the other half in this entire world.	我们可以想象这世界的另一半很难找到。
501	So it's almost impossible to do that.	所以几乎不可能做到这一点。
502	So in that sense, I think it is also a piece of tragedy.	因此,从这个意义上讲,我认为这也是一场悲剧。
503	So on Agaton's point aspect, I think there's a lot of comic elements in his speech.	所以在阿加顿的要点方面,我认为他的演讲中有许多漫画元素.
504	First, his arguments about the four cardinal virtues of Eros are so bad.	首先,他关于埃罗斯四大美德的争论是如此糟糕.
505	Perhaps the argument for wisdom is better in comparison with courage, moderation and justice.	或许,与勇气、节制和正义相比,智慧的论点更好。
506	But in general, I cannot imagine they are presented as very serious arguments toward the virtue of Eros.	但总的来说,我无法想象它们被描述为对伊罗斯的美德非常严肃的论点。
507	That's the first.	这是第一个。
508	Unintentionally comic perhaps.	可能是无意的漫画
509	I think so.	我想是这样。
510	You think so?	是吗?
511	Yeah.	对
512	They won't work at all.	他们不会工作。
513	For example, it is the most courageous because they can, Eros can conquer Eris.	例如,它是最勇敢的,因为他们可以,埃罗斯可以征服埃里斯.
514	What an argument is that?	什么争论?
515	And also in his praise of Eros, there's nothing tragic about it at all.	也在他的赞美埃罗斯中,丝毫没有悲剧.
516	I would very much like to hear your...	我非常想听到你的... ... 我非常想听到你的声音。
517	I think that's a great insight.	我认为这是一个伟大的见解。
518	Thank you, Leo.	谢谢你,里奥。
519	I think you're absolutely right about the tragic overtones of Aristophanes.	我认为你对阿里斯托法内斯的悲剧完全正确
520	I mean, this is about loss, isn't it?	我的意思是,这是关于损失,不是吗?
521	And the interminable pursuit of wholeness, which of course we can never achieve because the other half has died off.	和永恒的追求整体, 当然,我们永远无法实现, 因为另一半已经死亡。
522	And actually, in that it is tragic, it is much truer to life, isn't it?	实际上,这是悲剧, 它更真实的生命,不是吗?
523	Than if he really were creating a story in which we all got back together with our halves.	而不是他真的在编造一个故事, 故事里我们都回到了我们的一半。
524	But the fact that we can't makes that tragedy very true to life.	但事实上我们不能让那场悲剧变得非常真实
525	I mean, love doesn't just happen and you get together because there's always going to be a lack.	我的意思是,爱不只是发生和你们在一起因为总是有缺乏。
526	And that's very much something that is part of the presentation of Eros as a god.	这也是伊罗斯作为神的一部分。
527	He's a god who doesn't have everything.	其神无所有.
528	You know, he is, in D'Artima's doctrine, the child of resource and poverty.	在达蒂玛的学说中他是资源与贫困的孩子
529	So he has both resource and lack of resource.	因此他既拥有资源,又缺乏资源.
530	And it is that that keeps us going.	而正是它让我们继续前进。
531	I mean, that's the point.	我的意思是,这就是重点。
532	If you get everything, you have everything, you're fully resourced, you don't try.	如果你得到了一切,你得到了一切, 你拥有充分的资源, 你没有尝试。
533	You're not striving.	你没有努力。
534	Human life has to involve that kind of striving in order to keep generating creative living and thinking.	人类生活必须参与这种努力,以便不断产生创造性的生活和思维。
535	So, yes, perhaps there is something tragic about that.	所以,是的,也许有些悲剧。
536	We don't live happily ever after.	我们从此不再快乐地生活.
537	You know, the fairy tale ending doesn't happen.	童话故事的结局不会发生
538	So it's interesting that you then, yes, I mean, you're right that the Agathon speech appears very flibby.	所以有趣的是,你,是的,我的意思是, 你是对的, 阿加顿的演讲看起来很软。
539	It's it's it's sailing over the top.	谓其船过顶.
540	Love has virtue and wisdom and beauty.	爱有德有智慧有美.
541	And he he's in the flowers.	则身在花间.
542	And you could almost say it's a it's a satire on the idea of love.	你几乎可以说是爱情的讽刺
543	And it ends up with a Socratic question.	最后是苏克拉底的问题
544	What is Eros?	什么是爱罗斯?
545	Yeah, it's also quite ironical.	是啊,这也相当讽刺。
546	Yes, yes.	对,对。
547	And ends up with this idea of, you know, love being a kind of cheerleader.	最终会想到,你知道, 爱作为一个啦啦队长。
548	And we're all following behind singing the praises of Eros.	我们都在追随歌颂爱罗斯。
549	You know, at the end of some of these comedies, actually, that we know in the ancient world, you had exactly that kind of procession, didn't you?	你知道,在这些喜剧的结尾, 事实上, 我们知道在古代世界, 你完全有这样的游行,不是吗?
550	So so, yes, an interesting flip of the content and the form in both those cases and the one that perhaps is again picked up by Plato at the end of the dialogue where they've all fallen asleep apart from Socrates and Aristophanes and Agathon.	所以,是的,一个有趣的翻转内容和形式在这两种情况下, 和也许被柏拉图再次拾起在对话结束时, 他们都睡着了苏格拉底和阿里斯托法尼斯和阿加顿。
551	And then falls asleep and they are debating whether the same person can write both tragedy and comedy.	然后睡着了,他们正在辩论同一个人能否写悲剧和喜剧。
552	It's always seen as, you know, one of those things, there's questions that Plato leads.	人们总是认为,你知道的, 其中之一, 有问题由柏拉图领导。
553	Well, can the same person?	同一人可以吗?
554	I mean, it was pretty standard in the ancient world.	我的意思是,这是相当的标准在古代的世界。
555	You are either a tragedian or a comic playwright.	你要么是流浪汉要么是漫画作家
556	You didn't do both.	你没有做两者。
557	There were some examples of people who did.	有一些例子人谁做了。
558	But on the whole, you're either Sophocles, the tragedian, or Aristophanes, the comedian.	但总的来说,你要么是索福克勒斯, 流浪汉, 要么是亚里斯托夫汉斯,喜剧演员。
559	You don't say, I can turn my hand to that.	你不说,我可以把我的手。
560	And they're arguing Socrates was arguing that the same man can.	他们认为苏格拉底是同一个人
561	Because of course, you know, they have a technique, they have the skill of writing and they can do so.	因为,当然,你知道,他们有技巧,有写作的技巧,可以做到.
562	And Plato himself has just demonstrated in this dialogue.	而柏拉图本人也刚刚在这场对话中表现出来.
563	He has written both tragedy and comedy.	他写了悲剧和喜剧
564	And indeed, I think you're absolutely right.	事实上,我认为你绝对是对的。
565	He has even inverted the comedian so that the comedian comes up with a tragic scenario and the tragedian comes up with a comic one.	他甚至颠倒了喜剧演员,这样喜剧演员就出现了悲剧情节,流浪汉就产生了漫画情节.
566	Very nice.	很不错
567	Okay, great.	好吧,伟大的。
568	So now I will move on to the other aspect of my questions about contemporary significance of this ancient wisdom.	因此,我现在要谈谈我关于这一古老智慧的当代意义问题的另一个方面。
569	Because the title of the book is How to Talk About Love.	因为书的题目是"如何谈论爱情".
570	So there's a community and a way of talking.	故有群生及语法.
571	And the subtitle is The Ancient Guide for Modern Lovers.	而字幕是"现代恋人古代指南".
572	So I really hope we could talk a little more about that.	所以我真的希望我们能多谈谈这个问题。
573	So you already talked quite a bit about the creativity power, creative power of love.	所以,你已经谈论了很多关于创造力, 创造力的爱。
574	So as we can see from almost every speaker of the symposium, there is always some kind of creativity involved, even for fighters, it also creates admirable actions for P 하고.	因此,正如我们从专题讨论会的几乎每个发言者中看到的那样,总是有某种创造力,即使是对战士来说,它也为PQQ创造了令人钦佩的行动.
575	Yes yes.	没错
576	better young man for, um, Eric Simascus, it creates everything almost in, in the world.	更好的年轻人,嗯,埃里克・西马斯克斯, 它创造的一切几乎在世界上。
577	Yeah.	对
578	Wisdom is the point is the creator.	智慧是点是创造者。
579	So everything is about creation.	故一切众生.
580	So I, I already,	所以,我已经,
581	yes, it was that aspect, but I would like to, to, to listen more about perhaps, um,	是的,这是这个方面, 但我想,想,听更多关于也许,嗯,
582	this self transcendence aspect of platonics of the, uh, the Socratic speech.	这个自我超越的方面柏拉图的,呃, 苏克拉底演讲。
583	Do you think that	你觉得
584	aspect is still important in contemporary world?	在当代世界中,问题仍然重要?
585	Uh, because we certainly, we honor a lot about	嗯,因为我们当然,我们很尊重
586	individualism, about self authority, autonomy, all these kinds of ideas.	个人主义,关于自我权威,自治,所有这些类型的思想.
587	Do we, do you think	我们,你认为
588	in contemporary world, we are still aiming or longing for this kind of self-transcendence	在当代世界中,我们仍然在追求或渴望这种自我交流
589	through love and why love can place, can still or not play such a role?	通过爱和为什么爱可以放置, 仍然可以或不扮演这样的角色?
590	I think the answer is that we are all at different stages of the ladder	我认为答案是我们都处于不同的阶梯阶段
591	and some people achieve and aim for self-transcendence through love.	一些人通过爱实现并追求自我交流
592	Τㄇ
593	are very much stuck on the lower rung of physical attraction, but we are all potentially oscillating	被困在身体吸引力的低端但我们都有可能吞噬
594	between one and the other.	二者间.
595	So, um, you know, if you're a young man and you fall in love	所以,嗯,你知道, 如果你是一个年轻人,你坠入爱河
596	with a beautiful woman, say, or, uh, and you, you know, it begins with that and this is what	和一个美丽的女人,说, 或者,呃,你,你知道, 它从这个开始,这就是什么
597	the doctrine tells us.	理论告诉我们。
598	We, we begin with that attraction.	我们从吸引人开始
599	It draws us, but, you know, after	它吸引我们,但是,你知道,之后
600	years of marriage, there are other things that should have, uh, settled into the relationship	结婚多年了还有其他事情应该解决
601	that makes you feel that you've become a better person or that you have grown in relation to the	让你觉得你已经成为一个更好的人或者你已经成长在与
602	individuality.	个性
603	It may be that one does seek for more spiritual fulfillment.	也许人们确实寻求更多的精神满足。
604	Um, of course,	当然
605	one can do that without, uh, without a specific partnering, but, uh, it may be that within	一个人可以做到这一点没有,呃,没有一个特定的伴侣,但,呃,它可能是在
606	the love partnership, you have fulfilled that element of your human nature and can move on	爱的伴侣关系, 你完成了你的人性元素并可以继续前进
607	to thinking about those individual, perhaps even more selfish ways of gaining some kind of	想想这些个人,也许更自私的方式获得某种
608	spiritual understanding.	灵性理解。
609	And, and of course, I think, yes, it is true.	而且,当然,我想,是的,这是真的。
610	We do at some	我们确实有
611	parts of our lives, if we have any kind of seriousness, we do seek some kind of	如果我们有任何严肃感我们确实在寻求某种
612	transcendence.	超凡绝伦.
613	We want to know, you know, we, we live for three school years and 10,	我们想知道,你知道,我们, 我们生活了三年和十年,
614	and we want to know that life is about something more than just us.	我们想知道生活不只是我们
615	Some of us never get there.	我们有些人永远到不了那里。
616	Maybe that doesn't matter.	也许这不重要
617	We're on the lower rungs.	我们在下层
618	We're oscillating between that.	我们正朝中间倾斜
619	We might	我们可以
620	be patriotic.	爱国
621	So we have a bit of higher love, but, you know, I think, I think the idea that	所以,我们有一点点更高的爱, 但是,你知道,我想,我认为的想法
622	that scale, that ladder can go higher does make sense.	那个尺度,梯子可以往上走,这确实有道理。
623	It, as Alcibiades shows, it doesn't	它,正如阿尔西比亚德斯显示,它不
624	necessarily happen to everyone, but it might happen to someone because of the love relationship.	必然发生在每个人身上,但可能因为爱情关系而发生在某人身上.
625	So Plato connecting it.	所以柏拉图把它连接起来
626	And it may be that, of course, we're talking about a different thing,	也许,当然,我们说的是另一件事,
627	a relationship, love being a relationship to the transcendence.	爱情是超人的关系
628	Love of God is something that is	对上帝的爱是
629	so indicated, of course, you know, you could think of people who have never, you know, who've	所以表示,当然,你知道, 你可以想到的人谁从来没有,你知道,谁
630	eschewed sexuality altogether because they feel that their duty is to try and love God.	因为他们觉得自己的职责是尝试和爱上帝
631	So, I mean, it even opens the door to that sort of religious understanding of love, the love that	所以,我的意思是,它甚至打开了门那种宗教理解爱,爱,
632	transcends human relations.	超越人际关系.
633	Perhaps truth is also kind of transcendent object	也许真理也是超乎寻常的东西
634	to be pursued.	将予追查。
635	Absolutely.	当然
636	Yes.	对
637	And, as you said, philosophy is the love of wisdom,	正如你说的哲学是智慧的爱
638	literally, philosophia.	从字面上讲,哲学。
639	The philo is sometimes seen as simply being the pursuit of, you want to	费洛有时被看成只是追求,你想
640	try and strive towards Sophia.	试着向索菲亚进发
641	A philosopher, a lover of wisdom is not someone who's achieved it,	一个哲学家,一个对智慧的爱好者不是一个已经实现的人,
642	but he's constantly striving for it.	但他一直在为它努力
643	And that striving is a kind of love.	这种努力是一种爱
644	It's an attraction	这很吸引人
645	towards.	向着。
646	Yeah.	对
647	Okay.	摆
648	Well, also about contemporary world.	还有当代世界
649	As we know, we have many	我们知道,我们有很多
650	more different ways of love nowadays.	现在更不同的爱方式。
651	We can go through applications, through AI, through all	我们可以通过申请,通过AI,通过所有
652	kinds of things.	那种东西。
653	好吧,让我们想象一下,如果苏格拉底或Ozybiades 或Aristophanes来到当代
654	world, when they see these various ways of talking about love, what do you think they would like to	当他们看到这些谈论爱情的各种方式, 你觉得他们想怎样?
655	say about these kinds of phenomena?	说这些现象?
656	Just imagine.	想像一下吧,你觉得呢?
657	I think if Socrates come into the modern world and	我想如果苏格拉底进入现代世界
658	he looks at the TikTok and Hinge and all these apps, he'd say, okay, so you're all on the lowest	他看着TikTok和Hinge 和所有这些应用, 他会说,好吧,所以你们都是最低的
659	level of the ladder.	梯级。
660	That is what you're doing.	这就是你在做什么。
661	Now, let us hope that when you find a partner,	现在,让我们希望当你找到一个伙伴,
662	you realize that it's not just about finding another partner with whom you're sexually attracted.	你意识到这不仅仅是找到另一个合作伙伴你被性吸引。
663	You're going to have to create a life with that partner.	你得和那个搭档一起创造生活
664	What would you want to get out of that?	你想从中得到什么?
665	Okay, you want to have children.	好吧,你想生个孩子。
666	You want to have children.	你想生孩子吗?
667	Maybe you can't have children.	也许你不能有孩子。
668	Maybe it's	也许
669	a homosexual relationship.	同性恋关系
670	You're not interested in children.	你对孩子不感兴趣
671	So what do you want from your	你想从你的
672	relationship?	关系?
673	You want something from it, don't you?	你想要的东西从它,不是吗?
674	You don't just want to have sex with someone	你不只是想和别人做爱
675	else.	别的
676	What do you want?	你想怎样?
677	You want psychological growth.	你想要心理成长。
678	You want to learn something about the	你想学习一些关于
679	world.	这个世界
680	You want to perhaps get closer to the truth of something.	你也许想接近真相
681	So I think he would say a lot of	所以我觉得他会说很多
682	modern society is set up to gratify the lowest urges, but just as we're all on different rungs	现代社会是为了满足最低的冲动, 但正如我们都是不同的冲动
683	of the ladder, there's always the opportunity for human beings to learn more from love relationships	在阶梯上, 人类总是有机会从爱情关系中学到更多
684	if they say choose.	如果他们说选择。
685	For example, the AI.	例如,大赦国际。
686	Some people fall in love with AI.	有些人爱上了AI.
687	But that kind of	但这种
688	relationship has nothing to do with body.	关系与身体无关。
689	Do you think Socrates would say, oh, this is pretty good?	你觉得苏格拉底会说, 哦,这是相当好的?
690	For moving some kind of bodily appetites from love, we can pursue something more spiritual.	我们可以追求更灵性的东西
691	In that sense?	从这个意义上说?
692	Well, possibly.	也许吧
693	I mean, after all, people have always had fantasies.	我的意思是,毕竟,人们总是有幻想。
694	And I think we	我想我们
695	would put a relationship with AI into the bracket of a fantasy.	将和AI的关系在一个幻想的括号。
696	It may feel incredibly real to those	可能感觉非常真实
697	who are undergoing that relationship.	他们正在经历这种关系。
698	But actually, it's a trick of the psyche, perhaps we would say.	但实际上,这是心理的诡计, 也许我们可以说。
699	And in that sense, it's not very different from relating to a real object.	从这个意义上来说,它与一个真实物体的关联性并不大不同.
700	It may feel very	可能感觉很深
701	similar.	类似。
702	The question as to whether it's a healthy relationship, whether it's the right way of	关于是否健康的关系,是否正确的方式
703	relating may emerge.	可能会出现相关的问题。
704	And, you know, I would suspect that an ancient person or even someone	而且,你知道,我会怀疑一个古老的人甚至某人
705	who lived 50 years ago would say it's an unhealthy way of developing your relationship	50年前就住过的人会说这是一种不健康的方式发展你的关系
706	to another object.	到另一个对象。
707	But if it is something that then becomes part and parcel of the modern world,	但是如果它成为现代世界的一部分
708	you could say the fantasy of relating to an object is going to lead to some of the same questions	你可以说与物体有关的幻想会导致一些相同的问题
709	of actually relating to an object.	与某一物体的实际关系。
710	So I'm using the word object.	所以我在用这个词
711	There's quite a famous psychoanalytic	有个著名的心理分析家
712	school called object relations.	学校称为对象关系.
713	And in a way, of course, when we relate to even another person,	当然,从某种意义上说,当我们联系甚至另一个人时,
714	what we're relating to, in some sense, are elements of our own mind, as we perceive another person.	从某种意义上讲,我们所关心的是我们自己思想中的元素, 因为我们认为另一个人。
715	So it's not always as if even the relationship between two people is a genuine relationship	所以,它并不总是像即使两个人的关系是真正的关系
716	between two people.	两个人之间
717	It's a relationship between myself and a projection of what I want to believe	这是我和我想相信的东西的关系
718	that I love.	我爱。
719	So there is that.	就是这样
720	And you could say that AI is filling in some of that gap there.	你可以说人工智能正在填补一些空白。
721	I see.	原来如此
722	Okay, great.	好吧,伟大的。
723	Well, I guess people have a lot of questions to ask.	我想人们有很多问题要问
724	I will ask one last	我要问最后一个
725	question.	问题。
726	To ask you to summarize, what is the one single insight that Plato gives us about love?	请你总结一下柏拉图给我们的关于爱情的独有见解是什么?
727	The single insight, I think, is that it exists on many different levels.	我认为,唯一的见解是,它存在于许多不同层面。
728	Thank you very much for that.	非常感谢
729	Thank you, Leo.	谢谢你,里奥。
730	Thank you for your questions.	谢谢你的提问
731	Thank you, professors, for this very stimulating and engaging conversations.	谢谢你,教授们,这次非常刺激的谈话
732	I think we learn a	我觉得我们学的
733	lot, especially love is their continuous pursuit of the truth and goodness in many ways.	爱是他们在很多方面不断追求真理和善良
734	I think	我觉得
735	now we want to give this very precious chance for our attendees today for the direct interactions	现在,我们想给今天的与会者一个非常宝贵的机会,让他们进行直接互动
736	with our guests.	和我们的客人。
737	So Zoom attendees, you may unmute to ask questions directly and freely,	所以放大参与者,你可能会解密直接和自由地提问,
738	and viewers watching the live stream, you can leave your question in the comment sections,	和观众观看直播流, 你可以离开你的问题在评论部分,
739	and we will select and pass them on to the speakers.	我们将挑选他们,然后把他们交给发言者。
740	And so I think I see a few questions	所以我想我看到了几个问题
741	in the chat box of the Zoom, which is a very interesting one following the discussion of AI.	在"缩放"的聊天盒中,这是AI讨论之后非常有趣的一个.
742	And in the age of capitalism, Eros has been reconstructed and commercialized through its	在资本主义时代,伊罗斯通过它的
743	multiple components, such as sentimental interactions.	多种成分,如多愁善感的相互作用.
744	As AI continues to grow, to what	随着大赦国际不断发展,
745	extent would virtual relationships take place of that towards altruism?	虚拟关系是否与利他主义发生关系?
746	So if so, is it ethical?	因此,如果是这样,这是否合乎道德?
747	So if so, to what extent should we regulate it?	因此,如果是这样,我们应在何种程度上加以规范?
748	And what type of advice or guidance we could seek	我们可以寻求什么样的建议或指导
749	from Plato in address this?	从柏拉图地址?
750	Okay, I'll just say briefly, I did sort of deal with that in relation	好吧,我只想简单说一下,我确实处理过这个问题
751	to Leo's question about AI.	对里欧的AI问题。
752	I do think that, yes, a lot of modern attempts to commercialize sex and	我认为,是的,很多现代的尝试商业化的性行为和
753	so on would be considered not sufficiently on a human level by the ancients.	古人不会从人类的角度来考虑
754	I mean,	我是说...
755	they might be right or wrong about that, but I suspect they would find it alarming that you	他们也许对或错但我怀疑他们会觉得你很震惊
756	think you can have a good relationship with an AI, which we know is happening.	你和人工智能的关系很好我们知道正在发生
757	So what can we	我们能做什么?
758	learn from that?	从中吸取教训?
759	Of course, my central insight, as I just suggested, was that there are all kinds of	当然,我的核心见解,正如我刚刚建议的那样,是,有各种各样的
760	levels of which love exists, and it may be that we have to get used to a level that involves	爱存在的程度, 也许我们必须适应到一个涉及
761	artificial intelligence.	人工智能。
762	What can we do to regulate it?	我们能做些什么来管理它?
763	I think is part of the much broader question	我认为是更广泛的问题的一部分
764	of what we need to do to think about regulating AI generally.	需要做点什么来考虑管制一般的AI。
765	I think there's so many ways in which	我觉得有很多方法
766	human beings interact with screens and with avatars and with influencers that we can't	人类与银幕、阿凡达和影响者互动,我们不能
767	simply say it's a question of the erotic aspect of their lives.	简单地说,这是一个问题他们生活中的色情方面。
768	There's so many different elements	有这么多不同的元素
769	involved in interaction with AI that may or may not need regulation.	参与与大赦国际的互动,而这种互动可能或不需要监管。
770	And my own feeling is that	我个人的感觉是
771	it's going to be extremely hard to do that.	这样做会非常困难
772	It's not clear what things are potentially leading to	不清楚是什么事情有可能导致
773	destruction of human relations and indeed human society generally.	摧毁人类关系,乃至整个人类社会。
774	And that's something that	这件事情
775	is being thought about very hard by people.	被人们认为非常艰难。
776	To what extent is that going to happen?	将在多大程度上发生这种情况?
777	So it's	所以这是
778	a difficult question, but I don't know if Leo has anything to add to what I was saying.	但我不知道里欧有什么要补充的
779	No, no, no, I don't have anything to add about it.	不,不,不,我没有什么要补充的。
780	It is really very difficult to regulate.	很难管理
781	We all see the problems, but to find a solution is very difficult.	我们都看到了问题,但找到解决办法非常困难。
782	We just hope everyone reads	我们只是希望每个人都读
783	Plato and is inspired by him.	柏拉图受到他的启发
784	Okay, so I think the next question is, can the way in which the drunk	好吧,所以我想下一个问题是, 能够使酒鬼的方式
785	are actually by this rushing to the party be read as a relation of the love's irrational	被看成是爱情不理性的关系
786	and impetuous character?	和无礼的性格?
787	If so, does the fact that he previously speakers are sober	如果是这样,那么他先前的发言者是否清醒?
788	suggest irony, which rejects their view as superficial or artificial fallacies?	讽刺的是,谁拒绝他们的观点是肤浅或人为的谬误?
789	That's a very nice point that, of course, Alcibiades is already drunk.	当然阿尔西比亚德斯已经醉了
790	And the whole point is that the	整个问题就是
791	speakers are not.	发言者不是。
792	And Alcibiades rushing in and giving his, what are we to make of it?	阿尔西比亚得斯冲进来给了他我们该怎么解释?
793	Are we to make anything of the fact that when he speaks, he is already under the influence of	我们是否要说明一个事实:当他说话的时候,他已经受到...
794	alcohol?	喝酒吗?
795	Now, I don't think that it's interesting that your questioner suggests that it means that	现在,我不认为这很有趣你的提问者暗示这意味着
796	the previous speakers are somehow not equally inspired.	前面的发言者似乎没有得到同样的启发。
797	I think actually that may be the case	我认为,实际上可能是这样的
798	that for an ancient person, you didn't necessarily talk rubbish when you were drunk.	对于一个古老的人来说你喝醉的时候不一定说废话
799	You could	你会
800	actually speak the truth.	说实话
801	And that's something that Alcibiades himself says, you know, effectively	阿尔西比亚德斯本人也曾说过,你知道,这是很有效的
802	in vino veritas, as they say, when you're drunk, you actually say something that is more truthful	在Vino veritas, 正如他们说, 当你喝醉了, 你实际上说一些更真实的东西
803	because you're uninhibited about what you're going to say.	因为你对要说的话毫不犹豫
804	And of course, that's what he	当然,这就是他
805	demonstrates with his speech, uninhibited expression of love and admiration for this extraordinary man.	用他的演讲来展示, 不受限制地表达对这个非凡人物的爱和钦佩.
806	So there's a story that I think Herod just tells about the people who, the Persians,	所以有个故事我想希律只是讲述了波斯人
807	I think, who make decisions when they are sober, and then they reconsider them when they're drunk.	我认为,谁做决定当他们清醒, 然后他们重新考虑当他们喝醉了。
808	And I think there is something in that, the idea that you can be in different states of mind when	我认为有些东西, 想法你可以在不同的精神状态当
809	you think about things, and that they actually might give you more insight rather than simply	你思考的东西, 和它们实际上可能给你更多的洞察力而不是简单的
810	denying the original insight.	否认最初的见解.
811	So maybe the drunkenness is part of that.	所以也许醉酒是其中的一部分。
812	Here's an insight	这里有个洞察力
813	from someone who is under the influence not of Eros, but of Bacchus.	他不是受易司罗士影响,而是受巴丘斯影响。
814	Okay, so Professor Liu want to end on that?	好吧,刘教授想结束吗?
815	Okay, so I think the next question is,	好吧,所以我认为下一个问题是,
816	it's interesting, it's a short, brief one.	这很有趣,它是一个简短的。
817	If love begins in lack, what happens when the lack is	如果爱情开始于缺乏, 会发生什么,当缺乏
818	fulfilled?	满足了?
819	Can a fulfilled love still remain Eros?	完成的爱还能继续吗?
820	A very good question, very important question.	一个非常好的问题,非常重要的问题。
821	And the fulfilled love would be the two halves getting back together again	完成的爱情就是两半重聚
822	在Aristophanic的故事。
823	And that would not then mean pure love, it would mean narcissistic self,	这并不意味着纯粹的爱, 意味着自恋的自我,
824	sort of self-completion.	有点自满
825	And you're not going to go anywhere with that.	而你不会去任何地方。
826	So I would say, yes, there always has to be an element of lack, or of at least difference.	因此,我要说,是的,总会有缺失或至少是差异的因素。
827	So what I was saying about the older man, the younger man having different things to offer	所以,我说什么关于年长的男人, 年轻人有不同的东西提供
828	to individuals coming from different sides of life, perhaps, allowing that difference to be	给来自不同生活方位的个人,也许允许这种差异
829	creative, I think is important.	创造性,我认为很重要。
830	And it's not as if you get to the point where you say, look, that's	也不像是说,你看,那是
831	I've done love, we're in love, that's all I need.	我做了爱,我们恋爱了,这就是我所需要的。
832	Because that isn't going to work for human beings,	因为那不会对人起作用
833	you need that constant striving to improve throughout life.	你需要不断努力改善生活
834	I mean, it ends with death.	我的意思是,它结束死亡。
835	I mean, love and death in that sense are related because death is the only thing that can put an	我的意思是,爱和死亡在那个意义上是相互关联的因为死亡是唯一可以放出
836	end to it.	结束它。
837	So yes, I think it's a very good question.	所以,是的,我认为这是一个非常好的问题。
838	I think that you do need that constant	我想你确实需要这种常量
839	element of lack.	缺乏因素。
840	And that is what Eros is, according to the schema that Plato sets up	这就是伊罗斯,根据柏拉图设计的计划
841	as the god that has that lack.	作为上帝的缺乏。
842	Perhaps I can add just one more point.	或许我可以再补充一点。
843	Even for a philosophia, philosophy, there is still always a lack, element of lack in there,	即使对于哲学,哲学, 总是有缺陷, 缺少的因素在那里,
844	because we are human beings, we cannot really reach the divine level of wisdom.	因为我们是人类,我们无法真正达到神圣的智慧水平。
845	That is why	这就是为什么
846	even if he claims that I'm an expert of love, he still claimed that I know nothing.	即使他声称我是一个爱的专家,他仍然声称我什么都不知道.
847	So really, the kind of wisdom is reserved for gods, not for human beings.	所以真的,那种智慧是留给神的,而不是人类的.
848	Absolutely.	当然
849	I mean, it's a bit like saying, can you ever stop thinking?	我的意思是,这有点像说, 你能停止思考吗?
850	Yeah, you know,	是啊,你知道吗,
851	I found the answer.	我发现答案了
852	That's it.	就这样
853	I'll stop thinking.	我会停止思考。
854	But you don't do that.	但你不这样做。
855	If you're a thinking person, you'll keep thinking all your life until the moment you drop.	如果你是一个思考的人,你会一直思考直到你下降的时刻。
856	Yeah, exactly.	没错
857	Okay, yeah.	好吧,没错。
858	So another question is from our video account.	另一个问题来自我们的视频账户。
859	Why do some people have separated love	为什么有些人把爱情分开了
860	and desire?	和欲望吗?
861	And they can love someone can love without desire or have desire without love.	他们可以爱一个人没有欲望,或者有欲望没有爱。
862	And why can some people give up give up love, but not desire?	为什么有些人可以放弃爱,而不是欲望?
863	Okay, well, this gets us into naughty questions of definition of what we mean by love.	好吧,这让我们进入淘气的问题定义我们的意思是爱。
864	And	还有
865	as I suggested, the there are these many different levels desire, physical desire is one level.	正如我所建议, 有很多不同层次的欲望, 肉体上的欲望是一个层次。
866	You can jettison physical desire and go on and be a platonic lover.	你可以放弃身体上的欲望,继续做一个柏拉图式的情人.
867	Or you can have both types of desire and love or and then the question is, can you have	或者,你可以有两种类型的欲望和爱或者,然后问题是,你可以有
868	you can have desire without love?	你没有爱就能有欲望?
869	Can you have love without desire?	你能没有欲望就拥有爱吗?
870	Well, I think yes, I mean,	我想是的我是说
871	all these things are possible.	所有这些事情都是可能的。
872	All these permutations of what we might think of as love.	这些我们所认为的爱情的轮廓
873	And also, you know, depending on the love object to some extent, because, you know, one can,	而且,你知道,取决于爱对象在某种程度上, 因为,你知道,一个人可以,
874	I mean, I can love some kinds of food.	我的意思是,我可以喜欢一些类型的食物。
875	Interestingly, the word arrows, the earliest	有趣的是,词箭,最早的
876	use the word arrows is in Homer, and is only used for love of food and drink.	使用箭在荷马的单词,只用于喜爱食物和饮料.
877	A desire for food and drink.	一欲食饮.
878	That's what the only time you find arrows is when the warriors	这就是你唯一找到箭的时候当战士们
879	put aside their arrows for food and drink.	把箭放下来吃喝
880	So it's something that needs to be fulfilled.	故此须成就.
881	And when	什么时候
882	they've had their food and drink, then they're then they feel content.	他们有食物和饮料, 然后他们觉得满足。
883	But yes, one can have	但是,是的,一个人可以
884	have that and that doesn't involve sexual desire.	有这一点,这不涉及性欲。
885	So you can have desires that are non sexual.	所以,你可以有欲望这是非性。
886	And you can have love that can you have love that doesn't involve any kind of desire?	你可以有爱,你可以有爱不涉及任何类型的欲望?
887	Well, again, it's a question of definition, you know, you can have love that doesn't	嗯,再次,这是一个定义问题, 你知道,你可以有爱没有
888	require you to have physical desire, I think.	需要你身体上的欲望,我想。
889	Okay, and professionally want to build on that?	好吧,专业上想继续吗?
890	Well, I totally agree.	好吧,我完全同意。
891	It's really a matter of definition.	这真的是个定义问题。
892	Sometimes we even in Plato, he's,	有时我们甚至在柏拉图,他是,
893	he sees desire and love at the same level.	他看到欲望和爱在同一层次。
894	Sometimes desire is a more is a broader term,	有时欲望更是一个更广泛的术语,
895	love is very specific to certain kind of like human relations.	爱情非常具体某些类型的人际关系。
896	Yeah, this really depends on	是啊,这真的取决于
897	how we define these two terms.	我们如何定义这两个术语。
898	In a way, love without desire or desire without love.	从某种意义上说,爱没有欲望或者欲望没有爱.
899	On a different level, you can say, okay, we can have love without desire or desire without love.	在不同的层面上,你可以说,好吧, 我们可以有爱没有欲望,没有爱。
900	Yes.	对
901	And I just to say, in the Greek, arrows can mean passionate desire, or it can just mean	我只想说,在希腊语中,箭可以指热情的欲望,也可以指
902	love in a more general sense.	更广义的爱情.
903	So it'd be a bit like saying, can you have arrows without arrows?	所以这有点像说, 你能没有箭吗?
904	I mean, you know, because the two different meanings are in the word.	我的意思是,你知道, 因为这两个不同的含义在这个词。
905	And so you start to,	所以你开始,
906	as I say, you need to start becoming more precise about what you mean.	正如我所说的,你需要开始更加精确你的意思。
907	But how you want to define	但你要怎样定义
908	that's used.	这是用。
909	Yeah.	对
910	Okay.	摆
911	Thanks for that.	谢谢你
912	And I think.	我觉得
913	Okay, another one in the chat box,	好吧,另一个在聊天箱,
914	what will Marcelo say about the learner of love and motivation?	马塞洛会怎么说爱和动机的学习者?
915	Yeah, well, I mean, the Maslow scale is obviously something that has a similarity to the	是的,嗯,我的意思是, 马斯洛尺度很明显的东西有相似之处
916	ladder.	阶梯。
917	The idea of the Maslow is that once you've achieved, say, physical security and	马斯洛的理念是一旦你实现了人身安全和
918	satisfaction, you can move on to thinking of higher things.	满足感,你可以开始思考更高的事物。
919	And you know, that actually,	你知道,事实上,
920	in a way, human beings need to move on once we have, you know, we're secure about our nourishment	在某种程度上,人类需要前进一旦我们有了,你知道, 我们的安全我们的营养
921	and how we live and so on, we then want to find relationships that fulfill us.	以及我们如何生活等等, 然后我们想找到满足我们的关系。
922	And when we found	当我们发现
923	that we might want to find ideas that fulfill us.	我们也许想找到满足我们的想法。
924	So actually, there's some similarity there	所以,实际上,有一些相似之处
925	to what Plato is suggesting, that we are moving up from what we might call more base desires	柏拉图所暗示的我们正从所谓的更多基础欲望中前进
926	to more elevated ones.	以至高贵者,
927	And that that is very much human nature.	这是人类的本性
928	We want to improve ourselves.	我们想改善自己。
929	And	还有
930	once we've achieved a certain level of satisfaction, of contentment, then we have the wherewithal	一旦我们达到一定的满意程度,满足度, 然后我们有资源
931	and the interest of going forward.	以及继续前进的兴趣。
932	So I mean, interestingly, the origins of philosophy,	有趣的是哲学的起源
933	according to Aristotle, he said, philosophy began in the sixth century BC, when there was	据亚里士多德所说,哲学始于公元前6世纪,当时
934	leisure, when people had enough wealth to be able to, as it were, sit around and think about life.	闲暇,当人们有足够的财富,能够像现在这样,坐着思考生活.
935	Until that point, you're busy trying to find your means of living and subsistence and so on.	至此,你忙于寻找生活和生活的手段等等.
936	So you	这么说你
937	haven't really had the opportunity to just let your mind go free.	还没有机会让你的心灵自由
938	And that's when it all begins.	而从此一切众生起.
939	And he actually says, you know, we are by nature curious that human beings or human beings desire	他实际上说,你知道, 我们天生好奇人或人渴望
940	to know is how he begins his metaphysics.	知道他是如何开始他的元物理。
941	We have an epistemophilic instinct, in other words,	换句话说,我们有感官本能
942	a desire to know instinctually.	渴望直觉上知道
943	So of course, that can't necessarily be fulfilled if we	当然,如果我们
944	have a lack of security and ability to survive.	缺乏安全和生存能力。
945	Once we have that ability,	一旦我们有了这种能力,
946	we can move forward and try and fulfill our curiosity about the world.	我们可以继续前进,尝试满足我们对世界的好奇心。
947	So Maslow and Plato, I think, are thinking on similar lines.	所以马斯洛和柏拉图,我想, 也在思考类似的思路。
948	Okay, so I think as the moderator, and I want to take advantage of asking a question,	好吧,所以我想作为主持人我想利用一个问题,
949	and I want to add a little bit comparative perspective to this conversation is	我想在这个对话中增加一点比较的观点
950	Plato's love push people to pursue beauty and goodness.	柏拉图的爱情促使人们追求美和善良.
951	And however, in the Chinese daily life	然而,在中国的日常生活中
952	and in the Chinese practical philosophy, many of the Chinese people see love as taking care	在中国的实践哲学中,许多中国人把爱看作是照顾
953	of one another is about sacrificing through ordinary moments.	彼此之间是用来牺牲正常时刻的
954	And how do you compare those	你怎么比较这些
955	two understanding of love?	两种对爱情的理解?
956	I think this is a question for both of our speakers today.	我认为这是我们今天两位发言者的一个问题。
957	That's very interesting.	这很有趣。
958	I mean, I would say that the idea of sacrificing yourself for someone	我的意思是,我会说, 想法牺牲自己为某人
959	who you love is very much present in the very first speech of Phaedrus in the Symposium.	你所爱的人在研讨会上在费德鲁斯的第一次演讲中非常活跃
960	And	还有
961	that's what he's saying.	他就是这么说的
962	You know, if you love someone, he's talking about erotic love, you're	你知道,如果你爱一个人, 他在谈论色情爱,你是
963	prepared to die for them.	准备为他们而死。
964	Well, even if it's non-erotic love, if it's love of kids or the	好吧,即使它是非麻醉性爱, 如果它是爱的孩子或
965	family, you might feel the same way.	家人,你可能会有同样的感觉
966	And in fact, one of the examples given by Phaedrus is	事实上,费德鲁斯举出的例子之一是
967	Alcestis, who is the princess who agrees to die in place of her husband.	阿尔塞斯提斯(Alcestis),是同意代替丈夫死去的公主.
968	So that is a familial	所以,这是一个家庭
969	love that she represents.	爱她所代表的。
970	And yes, I mean, I think it's interesting that you use it to sacrifice	是的,我的意思是,我觉得很有趣你用它来牺牲
971	yourself.	你自己来
972	I mean, you know, you'll sacrifice a lot for your children, your family and those you love.	我的意思是,你知道,你会牺牲很多为你的孩子,你的家人和你爱的人。
973	And that is one of the levels of love that is, I think, represented in the Symposium.	我认为,这是参加研讨会的爱的程度之一。
974	And there are others.	还有别的
975	Okay.	摆
976	Thank you.	谢谢
977	Yeah.	对
978	So, well, as I just mentioned, well, you can almost find all the possible aspects of love in	所以,正如我刚才提到的, 你几乎可以找到爱的一切可能方面
979	Plato's Symposium.	柏拉图研讨会.
980	As Professor Denguer already masterfully shows that this Chinese practical	正如登格教授已经精通地证明这个中国实用
981	wisdom about love really can be found in Phaedrus' speech.	在费德鲁斯的演讲中可以找到关于爱情的智慧。
982	But I would like to say a little bit more	但我想多说一点
983	about that.	关于那个。
984	Perhaps in the Chinese tradition, we can also find this Socratic or Platonic	或许在中国传统中,我们也可以找到这个苏克拉底或柏拉图式
985	transcendence of love.	爱的超越
986	For example, in Confucius' Pursuit of Dao, he says, well, once we heard Dao	例如,在孔子对道的追求中,他说,一旦我们听到道
987	in the morning, we can die in the evening.	早上,我们可以死在晚上。
988	So there is really a passion for truth, for wisdom,	因此,确实有一种对真理,对智慧的热情,
989	for Dao.	为道.
990	So we do have a lot to say about these two different traditions.	因此,关于这两种不同的传统,我们有很多话要说。
991	Even if for	即便这样
992	yearly, we will say that the Chinese tradition is more practical, more ethical, more political,	我们每年都会说,中国的传统更实用,更道德,更政治,
993	without this kind of metaphysical and transcendental aspects.	没有这种物理和超自然的方面。
994	But actually, we can still find a lot in	但实际上,我们仍然可以发现很多
995	both Confucian tradition and Daoist tradition for this transcendental pursuit of truth.	儒家传统和道士传统都是为了追求真理
996	I just	и琌
997	would like to add a little bit on that.	我愿就此补充一点。
998	So it's really in the Chinese tradition,	所以这是中国的传统
999	we also have very complicated pictures of love, if we see love as desire.	我们也有非常复杂的爱情图片如果我们把爱情看作欲望
1000	Okay.	摆
1001	So thank you very much.	非常感谢
1002	I think we reached the end of our discussion today,	我认为我们今天的讨论已经结束,
1003	and this is a very sort of provoking session.	这是一种非常刺激的届会。
1004	And I want to extend our very sincere thanks to	我想表达我们非常诚挚的感谢
1005	both professors and all the online audience and participants for making this event happen.	无论是教授还是所有在线观众和参与者,
1006	Yeah.	对
1007	Thank you very much.	谢谢

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