何为“双重天赋”？首次完整收录240余幅绘画作品，带你认识作
字幕摘录
| 时间 | 英文 | 中文 |
|---|---|---|
| 0:04 | All right welcome everybody to yet another one of our talks here at Yale Center Beijing. | 欢迎大家再次来到耶鲁中心北京 |
| 0:10 | Thank you for joining us. | 谢谢你加入我们。 |
| 0:13 | For those of you guys that are new here my name is Devin Lau and I am | 你们这些新来的,我叫刘德文 |
| 0:16 | the assistant director for Yale Center Beijing. | 北京耶鲁中心副主任 |
| 0:19 | By a quick way of introduction Yale Center Beijing | 简而言之 北京耶鲁中心 |
| 0:21 | was established in 2014 as Yale's only university-wide center where we try to bring | 2014年耶鲁大学成立,是耶鲁大学唯一一个 我们试图带来 |
| 0:28 | the latest and most interesting developments across academia and across different | 学术界和不同学术界的最新和最有趣的事态发展 |
| 0:32 | fields to our audiences here in China as well as around the world. | 给中国和世界各地的观众 |
| 0:38 | We've been very lucky since the pandemic to have many different professors join us from Yale but | 自从大流行以来 我们一直很幸运 有很多不同的教授从耶鲁加入我们 但是 |
| 0:46 | also just from all over the world which we also have today. | 同样来自世界各地,我们今天也有。 |
展开字幕全文（535 条）
| 序号 | 英文 | 中文 |
|---|---|---|
| 1 | All right welcome everybody to yet another one of our talks here at Yale Center Beijing. | 欢迎大家再次来到耶鲁中心北京 |
| 2 | Thank you for joining us. | 谢谢你加入我们。 |
| 3 | For those of you guys that are new here my name is Devin Lau and I am | 你们这些新来的,我叫刘德文 |
| 4 | the assistant director for Yale Center Beijing. | 北京耶鲁中心副主任 |
| 5 | By a quick way of introduction Yale Center Beijing | 简而言之 北京耶鲁中心 |
| 6 | was established in 2014 as Yale's only university-wide center where we try to bring | 2014年耶鲁大学成立,是耶鲁大学唯一一个 我们试图带来 |
| 7 | the latest and most interesting developments across academia and across different | 学术界和不同学术界的最新和最有趣的事态发展 |
| 8 | fields to our audiences here in China as well as around the world. | 给中国和世界各地的观众 |
| 9 | We've been very lucky since the pandemic to have many different professors join us from Yale but | 自从大流行以来 我们一直很幸运 有很多不同的教授从耶鲁加入我们 但是 |
| 10 | also just from all over the world which we also have today. | 同样来自世界各地,我们今天也有。 |
| 11 | It's always fun to try to connect | 尝试连接总是很有趣 |
| 12 | people from multiple time zones into one talk. | 来自多个时区的人 进入一个谈话。 |
| 13 | Normally we have everything from music to biology | 通常我们都有音乐和生物 |
| 14 | to economics to art history so today we get a little bit of a mix I guess of literature and | 经济学和艺术史 所以今天我们得到一点 混合,我猜文学和 |
| 15 | Germanic studies and you know I guess art history also falls into this and a little bit of everything | 日耳曼式的学习,你知道,我猜艺术史 也属于这个和一点点的一切。 |
| 16 | today with a talk on Kafka's drawings and so I'll introduce our two speakers or one speaker and one | 今天在卡夫卡的画上谈了一番 所以我介绍两位演讲者或一位演讲者 |
| 17 | host for the talk which we are also very lucky to have and then before I do that I will say that if | 主持我们很幸运的演讲 在此之前我会说 |
| 18 | people are willing and able to turn on your video cameras so that we can see you that would be most | 人们愿意并且能够打开你的摄像头 这样我们才能看到你 这将是最 |
| 19 | helpful as it's always good to be able to feel like we're still in the same room a little bit by | 总是有帮助的 感觉我们仍在同一间屋子里 |
| 20 | looking at different faces instead of just a wall of blank screens so if people are able to please | 看着不同的面孔 而不是一堵空白的屏幕 所以如果人们能够取悦 |
| 21 | turn on your video cameras that would be most helpful and then while you're doing that I will | 打开你的摄像头 这将是最有帮助的 然后当你这样做,我会 |
| 22 | introduce our speakers today. | 今天介绍我们的发言者。 |
| 23 | So Andrea Kilker is professor of literature and cultural studies at | 安德里亚·基尔克是文学和文化研究教授 |
| 24 | ETH Zurich as well as president of the board of the Thomas Mann archives at ETH Zurich. | EST苏黎世,以及ETH苏黎世托马斯·曼档案馆董事会主席. |
| 25 | He's also on the board of the directors for the Center for the History of Knowledge at ETH as well | 他也是ETH知识史中心董事 |
| 26 | as the University of Zurich. | 作为苏黎世大学. |
| 27 | He's held visiting professorships at Princeton, Stanford, UC Davis | 他在普林斯顿,斯坦福,加州大学戴维斯分校担任客座教授 |
| 28 | and Tel Aviv University and his main areas of interest include literary and cultural studies, | 和特拉维夫大学及其主要关注领域包括文学和文化研究, |
| 29 | history of knowledge, Jewish literary and cultural history. | 知识史,犹太文学和文化史. |
| 30 | He's worked on a various number of | 他研究过多种 |
| 31 | authors of course today on Franz Kafka as well as Mass Frisch, Dersham Sholem as well as a host | 今天的弗朗茨·卡夫卡的作者 以及弥撒·弗里施、德沙姆·沙勒姆和一位主持人 |
| 32 | of other people. | 别人。 |
| 33 | Today he will be joined by Paul North who is professor and director of undergraduate | 今天他和保罗·诺斯会合 他是本科教授兼主任 |
| 34 | studies of Germanic languages and literatures at Yale. | 在耶鲁学习日耳曼语言和文学。 |
| 35 | He's a graduate of Northwestern who writes | 他是西北大学的毕业生 他写道 |
| 36 | and teaches on literature and other media, continental philosophy and literary and critical | 教授文学和其他媒体、大陆哲学、文学和批判 |
| 37 | theory. | 理论 |
| 38 | He is most interested in the afterlives of Kantian critical thought, deconstruction, | 他对康斯坦丁批判性思想 解构的后世最感兴趣 |
| 39 | literary theory and poetry and poetics in a variety of languages and traditions. | 各种语言和传统的文学理论和诗歌和诗歌. |
| 40 | He's himself written | 他自己写的 |
| 41 | on Kafka as well as a host of very interestingly titled books including The Problem of Distraction | 以及许多非常有趣的书籍,包括《分心问题》 |
| 42 | and Bizarre Privileged Items in the Universe and so we're very lucky to have them both join us today. | 和Bizarre在宇宙中的特权项目, 所以我们非常幸运,他们今天都加入我们。 |
| 43 | The format will be a conversation between the two of them and then we will open it up to | 形式是两人对话 然后我们打开 |
| 44 | questions at the very end which you can enter in the chat box while the conversation is going on | 在谈话进行时您可以在聊天框中输入的问题 |
| 45 | and I will do my best to select the relevant ones and moderate when the time comes and so | 我会尽我所能 选择相关的 和温和的 当时机来临,所以 |
| 46 | with that one more reminder that if you would be so kind as to turn on your webcams so that we can | 再次提醒你 如果你愿意打开你的网络摄像头 这样我们就可以 |
| 47 | see some of the people that we'll be talking with that would be most helpful | 看到一些人,我们会说话 这将是最有帮助 |
| 48 | and then I will turn everything over to Paul. | 然后我会把一切都交给保罗 |
| 49 | Thank you Devin. | 谢谢你,德文 |
| 50 | Thanks to you for organizing this | 多亏你安排了这个 |
| 51 | and to the program for hosting it. | 并让节目主持。 |
| 52 | It's very rare to find something new in the Kafka zone. | 在卡夫卡区发现一些新的东西是非常罕见的. |
| 53 | It's very rare to find something unknown for a writer for whom a lot is known. | 对于一个为很多知名的作家来说,找到一些未知的东西是非常罕见的. |
| 54 | We have had | 我们有过 |
| 55 | writings pretty much since he died edited by his friend Max Brote and about whom very little is | 自从他死后 写了很多文章 由他的朋友马克斯·布罗特编辑 而关于他的人很少 |
| 56 | known because it's very hard to understand what exactly he was doing in his short stories, in his | 因为很难理解他在短篇小说中 到底在做什么 |
| 57 | life, in his letters. | 生活,在他的信中。 |
| 58 | He seems to be developing a program even a philosophical program to answer | 他似乎正在开发一个程序 甚至一个哲学程序来回答 |
| 59 | certain questions but those questions are hard to figure out as anyone who's read Kafka's stories | 某些问题,但那些问题 很难想明白 任何人谁读卡夫卡的故事 |
| 60 | knows they are more like legends than literature more like paradoxes than arguments so there's a | 他们更像是传说 而不是文学 更像是悖论 而不是争论 |
| 61 | lot that's unknown about Kafka even though we have a lot of materials but this is one of the | 尽管我们有很多材料 但这是其中之一 |
| 62 | first and only discoveries of materials that we really didn't know discovered by a lot of people | 首先是我们不知道的 被很多人发现的材料 |
| 63 | over the years but really put together by Andreas Kircher who I'm very happy to talk to today. | 我很高兴今天能和安德烈亚斯·基尔彻谈谈 |
| 64 | I | 一、导 言 |
| 65 | want to show the book which is a beautiful book just a gorgeous object put out by Yale University | 想要展示这本书 这是一本美丽的书 只是一个华丽的物体 由耶鲁大学推出 |
| 66 | Press. | 按着 |
| 67 | We're going to talk about some of the materials how they came to light and you know | 我们要谈谈一些材料 他们是如何曝光的 你知道 |
| 68 | what to do with them with a writer who's so globally known and so deeply unknown. | 与他们有什么关系 与一个作家 谁是如此的全球知名 如此深不明。 |
| 69 | What do | 怎么办? |
| 70 | you do with new material? | 你用新材料吗? |
| 71 | So I want to turn to Andreas and ask you just to start where were these | 所以我想转告安德里亚斯 请你从哪里开始 |
| 72 | drawings and how did you find them? | 画和你怎么找到的? |
| 73 | First of all hello to everybody I'm really glad to be here | 首先向大家问好 我真的很高兴能在这里 |
| 74 | and yeah thanks also Paul for hosting these the questions and yeah the question is the first | 感谢保罗主持这些提问 也是第一个 |
| 75 | because for decades we even didn't know about these drawings nobody knew about them except | 因为几十年来我们甚至不知道 这些画,没有人知道 他们只是 |
| 76 | maybe two persons. | 也许两个人 |
| 77 | One person was until he died Max Broad he died in 1968 so quite some time ago | 一个人直到他死了 Max Broad 他于1968年去世 很久以前 |
| 78 | so he was the one who collected these drawings and he was the one who published a few of | 于是他收集了这些图画 并发表了几篇 |
| 79 | a small selection of these drawings by Kafka during his lifetime during Broad's lifetime | 卡夫卡在布罗德的一生中 画了些小作品 |
| 80 | not during Kafka's lifetime only after Kafka's death he started to publish a few of them | 卡夫卡死后 他才开始出版几本书 |
| 81 | something like a good dozen of these drawings but the large part of these drawings | 这些画有十几幅不错 但大部分都是 |
| 82 | has never been shown and after his death after Max Broad died in 1968 | 在马克斯·布罗德于1968年去世后 他的死后 |
| 83 | so the entire Kafka estate went to Broad's secretary Issa Esther Hoffe so she was actually | 所以整个卡夫卡庄园 都交给了布罗德的秘书伊萨·埃丝特·霍夫 所以她实际上是 |
| 84 | the second person to really know about these drawings but she even more than Max Broad kept it | 是第二个真正了解这些画的人 但她比Max Broad保存的还要多 |
| 85 | away locked it locked these drawings away in a bank vault in the end in the last decades these | 把这些画锁在银行金库里 最终在过去几十年里 |
| 86 | these drawings has been kept maybe it sounds even funny in a bank vault in in Zurich | 这些画被保存了起来 也许在苏黎世的银行金库里 听起来甚至很有趣 |
| 87 | close to the place where I'm living actually I when I came to Zurich I even didn't know that | 离我住的地方很近 当我来到苏黎世时 我甚至不知道 |
| 88 | this material is there in a bank it sounds a little bit like a James Bond film that you | 这材料在银行里 听起来有点像詹姆斯·邦德的电影 |
| 89 | have always this small sequence in Zurich because they are numbered bank vaults so anonymous nobody | 苏黎世总是这么小的序子 因为它们是编号的银行金库 |
| 90 | knows what's in nobody knows who to whom belongs the stuff and in such a bank vault these drawings | 谁知道这些东西是谁的 在这样的银行金库里 |
| 91 | have been kept until the death of Issa Esther Hoffe and after her death which was in 2007 | 直到伊萨·埃斯特·霍夫去世 以及她于2007年去世之后 |
| 92 | in Israel a trial started about the question to whom belong now these the estate of Kafka and | 在以色列,开始审判 现在属于谁的问题 卡夫卡的庄园 |
| 93 | Max Broad and the Jewish National Library in Israel claimed that this is not belonging to | Max Broad和以色列犹太国家图书馆声称这不属于 |
| 94 | the heirs of Issa Esther Hoffe meaning the secretary of Max Broad but much more | 伊萨·埃丝特·霍夫的继承人 意思是马克斯·布罗德的秘书 |
| 95 | to themselves to the National Library I want to make it really short as short as possible but | 我想尽可能缩短时间 但是... |
| 96 | they won the trial the National Library won the trial the family the Hoffer family lost the trial | 他们赢得了审判 国家图书馆赢得了审判 霍佛家族失去了审判 |
| 97 | which means that in 2019 all these drawings have been transferred to Jerusalem from | 这意味着在2019年,所有这些图纸都已从耶路撒冷转移。 |
| 98 | Zurich to Jerusalem and since I was following this trial very closely because it was it was | 苏黎世去耶路撒冷 自从我密切关注这次审判以来 |
| 99 | a very fascinating trial that went to all the the courts in Israel up to the Supreme Court | 一个非常令人着迷的审判 在以色列的所有法院,直到最高法院 |
| 100 | I knew exactly what was in these bank walls in Zurich because there was an inventory I have been | 我知道苏黎世的银行墙上到底有什么 因为有盘子我一直 |
| 101 | talking to people interviewing people so I knew what was in there and to me it was absolutely | 和采访人们的人交谈 所以我知道里面是什么 对我来说是绝对的 |
| 102 | clear that there is one diamond in these bank vaults and these are the drawings people have | 银行金库里有一个钻石 这些是人们的画 |
| 103 | been speculating what is in these bank vaults in Zurich and in Israeli journals you could read | 正在猜测苏黎世的银行金库里 和以色列日记里有什么 |
| 104 | unknown stories novels by Kafka are in Zurich and it was all completely exaggerated wrong | 卡夫卡的未知故事小说 都在苏黎世 完全被夸大了 |
| 105 | because he knew everything except the drawings so that's how I came to these drawings and | 因为除了图画之外他什么都懂 所以我才来画画 |
| 106 | in the moment they have been transferred to Jerusalem to the National Library of Israel | 当他们被转移到耶路撒冷 被转到以色列国家图书馆 |
| 107 | I took the plane went there and the project was there. | 我坐飞机去了那里,项目就在那里。 |
| 108 | I want to that's a great opening and a | 我想有一个伟大的开局和一个 |
| 109 | kind of bizarre itinerary for you and for the drawings I want to get to maybe showing | 有点怪异的行程 对于你和那些我想展示的画 |
| 110 | a drawing or two but before then would you talk a little bit about the absurdity of these | 一两幅画,但在那之前,你会 谈一下这些荒谬的 |
| 111 | places Kafka was a human being who lived in Prague and spent most of his life in Prague | 卡夫卡在布拉格居住 一生大部分时间都在布拉格 |
| 112 | in fact most of his life within about a 14 block area of Prague except for a few trips | 事实上他一生的大部分时间 都在布拉格的14个街区 除了几次旅行之外 |
| 113 | his work these files and archives have a movement across a kind of diaspora and end up | 他的作品 这些文件和档案 都有异乡流民的流传 最终 |
| 114 | in a kind of Jewish national home something that Kafka was himself a little vexed about | 在一个犹太民族的家里 某个东西 卡夫卡自己有点烦恼 |
| 115 | that is the idea of a political Zionism it bothered him so what do you think about where | 这是政治锡安主义的思想 它困扰着他 所以,你觉得哪里 |
| 116 | they ended up what do you think about what would Kafka have said maybe that's not the most | 他们最后认为卡夫卡会说什么 也许这不是最 |
| 117 | interesting question but tell a little bit more about the afterlife of these drawings | 有趣的问题,但多讲一点这些画的来世 |
| 118 | you are absolutely right that there are many ironic turns in the in the entire history of | 你说得对 在整个历史中 有很多讽刺的转折 |
| 119 | Kafka's estate not only that one already from his death in 1924 with the testament asking Max | 卡夫卡的地产 不仅是他1924年去世后 留下的遗嘱 问麦克斯 |
| 120 | Broth to burn everything which was ironical in my view it was an ironical testament | Broth烧了所有我认为具有讽刺意味的东西 这是一个具有讽刺意味的遗嘱 |
| 121 | because he knew that Max Broth would never burn a single piece of paper on which he had written or | 因为他知道 Max Broth 永远不会烧掉他写过的文件 |
| 122 | drawn until yeah the fact that Max Broth in 1939 he could save the entire estate by Kafka | 直到1939年马克思·布罗斯 能够用卡夫卡拯救整个庄园 |
| 123 | from the Nazis who entered Prague and he was taking let's say the last opportunity to get | 从纳粹进入布拉格的纳粹党人那里 他拿走了最后一个机会 |
| 124 | out of occupied Prague and to get to Israel to Palestine at the time Mandate Palestine | 离开被占领的布拉格,前往巴勒斯坦 |
| 125 | and I mean so it was not the decision by Kafka by far not the decision by Kafka what happened | 我的意思是,所以这不是 卡夫卡的决定 远非 卡夫卡的决定 发生了什么事 |
| 126 | so he gave it in the hand of Max Broth so the irony that you are speaking of very well is | 所以他把它交给了马克斯・布罗斯 所以你说的非常讽刺的是 |
| 127 | of course also what did Max Broth with all that stuff so Kafka knew he even he gives everything | 当然还有马克思·布罗斯用这些东西做了什么 所以卡夫卡知道他甚至给了他一切 |
| 128 | in the in the hand of of his friend and he knew that he would take care but he didn't know | 在朋友的手中,他知道 他会照顾,但他不知道 |
| 129 | in what way he took care he will take care so he took both took care in a very peculiar way | 他怎样照顾他,他会照顾他 所以他俩都照顾得很特别 |
| 130 | on the one hand he saved everything several times and also the fact that he transferred the | 一方面,他拯救了一切 几次,还有他转移的事实 |
| 131 | Kafka writings from the place he lived in Tel Aviv from 1930 on to Zurich in actually this was in | 从1930年到苏黎世 他住在特拉维夫的卡夫卡写作 |
| 132 | 1956 it was to take responsibility because this was the time of the so-called Suez crisis and | 1956年它要承担责任,因为现在是所谓的苏伊士危机和 |
| 133 | in Israel it was a big fear that this that this the state will be over | 在以色列,人们非常担心 这个国家将会结束 |
| 134 | overruled by by Arab countries and and so Max Broth in that time he he brought everything to | 被阿拉伯国家否决了 所以马克斯·布罗斯当时把所有东西都带来了 |
| 135 | Switzerland a safe place and only in 2019 the journey goes back to to to Jerusalem on the | 瑞士是一个安全的地方,直到2019年,旅程才回到耶路撒冷 |
| 136 | different political contexts and so you see these all these these ironical turns that are | 不同的政治背景,所以你可以看到所有这些 讽刺性的转折是 |
| 137 | out of Kafka's hands completely so he never I'm sure he never would have dreamed that his | 完全脱离了卡夫卡的手,所以他从来就没有梦想过 |
| 138 | part of his writings especially his drawings would now be situated in in yeah in the capital of if | 他的部分著作,尤其是他的画, 现在将位于首都的耶 |
| 139 | actually next to the Knesset yeah there's a number of ironies that these drawings should be sitting | 实际上在以色列议会旁边... ... ...... |
| 140 | in Israel representing a kind of memory of Europe for a totally different population of course a | 在以色列代表着一种对欧洲的记忆 对完全不同的人群 当然a |
| 141 | lot of researchers can look at them too what are they about do you want to show us some examples | 很多研究者也能看一看 他们谈的是什么 你想给我们举个例子吗 |
| 142 | and we can get a sense of what Kafka was doing yeah sure let's let's have a look at these | 我们可以看到卡夫卡在做什么 确定让我们来看看这些 |
| 143 | some of these drawings let me ask you so you you see the presentation so you see the drawings | 有些画让我问你 这样你就能看到演示文稿了 |
| 144 | yeah that's that's a very good question I think it's it's it's best to to start with a few | 是啊,这是一个非常好的问题 我认为这是最好的开始 从几个 |
| 145 | examples to to get an impression of of these drawings and I I would like to start with | 我首先想说: |
| 146 | two or three examples that haven't been known so far and for example this one is completely unknown | 两三个例子至今还不知道 比如说这个完全未知 |
| 147 | until yeah the book came out so these drawings they are mostly as you see already here | 直到书出来了 这些图纸大部分都在这里 |
| 148 | about human beings there are bodies of human beings much less portraits you you see faces you | 人类身上有人类的尸体 更不要说你们看到的肖像 |
| 149 | see some kind of faces we can talk about the faces but you see much more the entire bodies | 看到一些面孔,我们可以谈论面孔, 但你看到更多的整个身体。 |
| 150 | and these bodies they are in a very peculiar way you could call them grotesque or carnivalesque or | 这些尸体非常奇特 你可以称之为怪异或狂欢 |
| 151 | even caricaturesque so these are not in any way realistic depictions of the human beings like | 连漫画也一样 所以这些根本不现实地描绘人类 |
| 152 | let's say the renaissance artists or until the 19th century also arts students would try to | 让我们假设复兴艺术家 或者直到19世纪 艺术学生也会尝试 |
| 153 | to depict the body in in its shape and in in all the proportions it's completely | 来描绘身体的形状和大小 |
| 154 | out of proportions what what Kafka is doing it's it's also most certainly out of any kind of a | 与卡夫卡的所作所为相当 也绝对出自任何一种 |
| 155 | school he took some lessons we can talk about that a little bit later he took drawing lessons | 他在学校上了一些课,我们可以谈 一会儿他学了点 |
| 156 | and he was very much interested in art he was even studying art history for a semester | 他对艺术很感兴趣 甚至研究艺术史一个学期 |
| 157 | his second semester he was actually indeed studying next to literature also art history | 他的第二学期实际上是在学习 文学和艺术史 |
| 158 | so he was also to somehow in a professional way dealing with with art but the way he was drawing | 所以他还是要以专业的方式处理艺术... ...但是他画画的方式 |
| 159 | and the most of his drawings are actually from this early times they are very far away from | 而他的大部分画作实际上是从这个早期 他们非常远离 |
| 160 | from any kind of school and they are at the same time very much away from any kind of let's say | 他们同时远离任何学校 |
| 161 | reality even though there is of course a transformation of something real if you for | 现实中当然有真正的转变 如果你愿意 |
| 162 | example look here the title of these drawings and this is a rare case because mostly Kafka | 举个例子看看这些画的标题 这是罕见的 因为大多数都是卡夫卡 |
| 163 | didn't give titles to his drawings but here you can see a title it's in German | 他的画没有题名,但在这里你可以看到一个题名 它用德语 |
| 164 | on the right upper side and in English this would be something like | 右上方和英语 这将是类似的东西 |
| 165 | exuberance of wealth is that right Paul something in that direction I think is not easy to translate | 富饶的富贵是 保罗的权利 方向的东西 我认为不容易翻译 |
| 166 | because in German this is a very positive expression it means something like playfulness | 因为在德语里这是一个非常正面的表达 意思是像玩乐 |
| 167 | to an excess even to the excess and to an excess that it could even when kids get | 超额的,甚至超额的,甚至超额的,甚至当孩子得到 |
| 168 | exuberant so they can easily start to cry because they do something extreme | 兴奋,所以他们可以很容易地开始哭 因为他们做了一些极端的事情 |
| 169 | and I mean we see the richness depicted because you see these two ladies or a lady on the | 我的意思是,我们看到 丰富的描绘 因为你看到这两个女士 或一个女士在 |
| 170 | and the man that's not hundred percent clear sitting on the table and they are served a huge | 而坐在桌子上的人 却不是百分百的清晰 |
| 171 | bird by one servant and the other one is bringing probably champagne in these slim high glasses | 一个仆人带一只鸟 另一只仆人带了香槟来 |
| 172 | the bird could be a peacock or also more bird of fantasy or something like that and you see a | 鸟可能是孔雀 也可能是幻想之鸟之类的东西 |
| 173 | candelabrum but it's only existing out of the candle so the candelabrum is not really there it's | 蜡烛里只有蜡烛 所以蜡烛里没有蜡烛 |
| 174 | it's somehow there and then you have an orchestra playing music on something like a huge balcony | 不知怎的,然后你有一个管弦乐团 在像一个巨大的阳台上演奏音乐 |
| 175 | and so yeah you see some kind of übermood but I would say here is you see not only | 所以,是的,你看到了某种 übermood 但我会说,这里你不仅看到了 |
| 176 | the exuberance of wealth or of yeah you see also the exuberance of the art of drawing | 财富的繁荣,或者对的... ...... |
| 177 | it's a wealth of drawing it's very playful it's very yeah so that's | 画的很丰富,非常有趣 |
| 178 | that's something I would see in that drawing or what do you think Paul? | 我在画里会看到什么 或者你认为保罗? |
| 179 | I don't know what to think this is a great description | 我不知道该怎么形容 |
| 180 | one connotation that übermood has that exuberance doesn't have in English is that it's | übermood有一种内涵 活力在英语中并不存在 |
| 181 | it's a little too much and it might be as we say in English something that goeth before the fall | 有点过头了 可能像我们用英语说的一样 在秋天之前 |
| 182 | is that we're just at the limit and after this things can only get worse it's a decadence you | 我们到了极限 事情只会更糟... ...你已经堕落了 |
| 183 | could say a moment before the end of this kind of celebratory image given that this is an expression | 可以说,在结束这种庆祝形象之前的一刻,因为这是一个表达 |
| 184 | of exuberance and this is a quite early image is that right do we have a sense of when it's from? | 这是很早期的画面 我们是否感觉到它何时诞生? |
| 185 | There is no date but it's very clear that this is from the time of Kafka's | 虽然没有日期 但很明显 这是从卡夫卡时代开始的 |
| 186 | when he was a student at in Prague and this is from around 1901 to 1906-7 that time around | 1901年左右到1906年7月7日 在布拉格的时候 |
| 187 | so it's not that there's no clear date but it's clear that most of these drawings are from that | 所以不是说没有明确的日期 但很明显这些图画大多来自 |
| 188 | {\fn黑体\fs22\bord1\shad0\3aHBE\4aH00\fscx67\fscy66\2cHFFFFFF\3cH808080}我们该讨论一下 {\fn黑体\fs22\bord1\shad0\3aHBE\4aH00\fscx67\fscy66\2cHFFFFFF\3cH808080}当他开始写作的时候 他没停止画画 | |
| 189 | but it's clear that his experiments with drawing were mainly in that in the time of his studies | 但是很明显,他的绘画实验 主要是在他学习的时候 |
| 190 | in that in this in the early time so it's very clear that from there. | 在早期的这里面 所以从那里就很清楚了 |
| 191 | To give a very short timeline | 给一个很短的时间 |
| 192 | Kafka was born in 1883 in Prague and around the turn of the century was in at university | 卡夫卡1883年出生在布拉格 世纪之交在大学 |
| 193 | and studying to be ultimately to be a lawyer he got several jobs in law and in the insurance | 并学习最终成为一名律师 他在法律和保险方面得到了一些工作 |
| 194 | industry and then worked for the bohemian version of the American OSHA occupational health and safety | 之后又为美国OSHA职业健康和安全的波希米亚版工作 |
| 195 | inspectors which protected workers mostly industrial workers from accidents that could | 保护工人主要是工业工人免受可能发生的事故的检查人员 |
| 196 | happen on the job and he was the attorney there and he did that job until 1917 | 他在那里当了律师,1917年以前一直做这个工作 |
| 197 | when he retired early because of health reasons in the meantime his writing went through a series | 他因为健康原因提前退休 他的写作经历了一系列 |
| 198 | of transformations he claimed that he became himself or we know the Kafka that we know | 他声称他成为了自己 或者我们知道卡夫卡 |
| 199 | was born in 1912 with one story called The Judgment it was Urtau and most of the writing | 生于1912年 一个故事叫"判决" 它是乌尔陶和大部分的写作 |
| 200 | we read from Kafka is between 1912 and 1922-23 when he wound things down because he was really | 我们从卡夫卡读到的是在1912年到1922年23年间 他把事情弄下来 因为他真的是 |
| 201 | too sick to continue what is the trajectory of development of these drawings do they change from | 无法继续这些图的轨迹, |
| 202 | this early moment when he was in school or was beginning to practice law how does it look later | 就在他上学或开始执业的早期 以后看起来如何 |
| 203 | on do you have a sense that there's a there's something you can say about their transformations | 你是否感觉到 有件事你可以说 他们的转变 |
| 204 | yeah that's that's a hard question because as i said only very few of these drawings | 是啊,这是一个很难的问题,因为正如我所说 这些图画中只有很少 |
| 205 | are dated so there are there are no dates written on it so it's it's hard to say from when exactly | 所以上面没有日期 所以很难说 |
| 206 | these drawings are so what the only thing i can give is the date of the studies and maybe the | 这些图画是我唯一能给出的 是研究的日期,也许 |
| 207 | first year of his practice at the landgericht so which is around between as i said 1901 to 1907 | 1901年到1907年,他在州法院执业的第一年 |
| 208 | that's that's most certainly where most of these drawings have been drawn and later on | 这就是最肯定的地方 这些图画的大部分 已经绘制 和以后 |
| 209 | Kafka he didn't stop drawing but what's changed is probably less the style of the drawing than | 卡夫卡他没有停止绘画 但改变的可能是画的风格 而不是画的风格 |
| 210 | the context in the writing if you like a cut i could jump i'm sorry that i do jump now so | 写作中的背景,如果你喜欢一个切 我可以跳,我很抱歉,我现在跳了,所以 |
| 211 | you can close your eye quickly if you like so we see some of the drawings but | 如果你喜欢的话,你可以快闭上眼睛 所以我们看到一些图画,但是... |
| 212 | we can come back to all these elements oh it's not so easy ah it's not doing what i want | 我们可以回到所有这些元素 哦,这不是那么容易啊 它不是做我想要的 |
| 213 | so okay here i wanted to get to so this is the point when the i would say when we see the | 所以,在这里,我想得到 所以这就是重点,当我看到 |
| 214 | transition from drawing to writing so this description is a little bit misleading because | 从绘图到写入的过渡,所以这个描述有点误导,因为 |
| 215 | i mean he was doing both at the same time to give a little bit more detailed picture | 我的意思是,他同时做两个 来更详细地描述 |
| 216 | he was starting to write probably more or less at the same time around 1901 to so he already | 他大概在1901年左右同时开始写作 所以他已经 |
| 217 | started to write but first of all most of that very early writing is lost so we don't have it | 开始写作,但首先 大部分早期的写作都丢失了 所以我们没有它 |
| 218 | and the the earliest texts which are called in in german or in english i can say description of a | 和最早用德国语或英语调用的文本 我可以说一个 |
| 219 | struggle and the pieces that were published in which is i think what's the english title | 我想英文标题是什么 |
| 220 | contemplation or i don't know meditation meditation i i'm not sure how what's the english title of | 考虑或我不知道冥想 我不知道英文标题是什么 |
| 221 | the book i mean kafka so these are the the very early pieces small prose pieces that have been | 我是说卡夫卡 所以这些是早期的小品 |
| 222 | written in the in the years between 1904 and 1906 7 but for kafka this was absolutely not clear | 在1904年到1906年的7年里写的 但对于卡夫卡来说 这绝对不清楚 |
| 223 | if he will be if he will yeah become a writer at that time he was at the same time probably | 如果他能成为一名作家 那时他可能同时 |
| 224 | than writing around 98 9 this clearly changed he somehow drew less and less and he wrote more and | 这显然改变了他画得越来越少 他写得更多 |
| 225 | more and and i think a case an interesting case are the early diaries when he started to write | 更多,我认为一个案例 一个有趣的案例是早期的日记 当他开始写 |
| 226 | a diary and i think for him the decision to write the diary is connected to the decision to write | 我觉得写日记的决定 和写日记的决定有关 |
| 227 | in general so because this means you write regularly write more or less every day and | 一般来说,因为这意味着你经常每天写多少 |
| 228 | of course the diaries are also a place where you are not only writing what you just did during the | 当然日记也是你不仅写你刚才在 |
| 229 | day but also these are exercises to write exercises in writing but if you see here | 一天,这些也是用文字写作的练习,但是如果你看到这里 |
| 230 | in the early diaries you see still quite some drawings so he was here mixing writing and drawing | 在早期的日记中,你仍然看到很多画,所以他在这里混合写作和绘画 |
| 231 | and not seldom or even in in most of these cases the drawing tried to depict something that the | 在大多数情况下,绘画试图描绘一些 |
| 232 | writing failed to describe i don't go into the details here but this is interesting that the | 写作未能描述我在这里没有细述细节 但有趣的是 |
| 233 | drawing still was very strong as an aesthetical way to express himself even stronger than the | 绘画仍然很强壮 作为美学上表达自己的方式 甚至比 |
| 234 | at that point so i think a peculiar phenomenon that the letters kafka's letters are kafka's | 那时候我觉得一个奇怪的现象是 卡夫卡的字母是卡夫卡的 |
| 235 | letters and they have a kind of wobble to them and it's almost as though the letters just go | 信和它们有 一种摇摆,它几乎 仿佛字母只是去 |
| 236 | right down into the faces on the right hand page here as though the lines of the faces and the | 右手页右下方的面孔 仿佛面孔的线条 |
| 237 | lines of some of the capital letters were the same yeah that's that's true there there is some | 有些大写字母的行是相同的 是的,确实有 |
| 238 | there's some kind of a transformation of the writing and the drawing from one to each other | 书写和绘画之间有某种转变 |
| 239 | that's absolutely the case and i think there is even a background for that | 绝对是这样 我认为甚至有背景 |
| 240 | this let's say proximity of the writing and the drawing first of all it is clear | 写作和绘画的接近 首先是清楚的 |
| 241 | that kafka didn't go to an art shop and buy a canvas and a brush or brushes and colors | 卡夫卡没有去美术店 买画布 刷子 刷子和颜色 |
| 242 | and going to an atelier and painting he was sitting at the same desk where he was writing so | 并去一个饭厅和画 他坐在同一个桌子上 他写着这样 |
| 243 | he was the same Franz kafka just and he was drawing and writing with the same pencil or pen | 他和弗朗茨·卡夫卡一样 他用同样的铅笔和笔画和写作 |
| 244 | whatever so he's using the same instrument the same paper so he is so already from that point | 不管他用的是同一个乐器 所以他已经这样了 |
| 245 | from this material point from the point of view of the creation of art and of writing | 从创造艺术和写作的角度来看 |
| 246 | it's the same process it's not a different process it's one process and on a more advanced level i | 同一个过程 不是一个不同的过程 一个过程 一个更高级的I |
| 247 | think these drawings are consisting and i would agree to what you say like the writing | 我同意你的话 就像写作一样 |
| 248 | just of a few lines they are not let's say what's what could be the case in some cases it's it is | 只是几行话,我们不说什么 可能是在某些情况下,它是 |
| 249 | like about the example we just saw exuberance of of richness i mean that's already quite far away | 就像我们刚看到的富饶的例子 我的意思是那已经很远了 |
| 250 | from writing but it's still in the sense close that kafka expresses in his drawings what he wants | 但卡夫卡在绘画中 表达他想要的东西 |
| 251 | to show in just a few lines and that's what you see here and i would say the line is actually | 以几行显示,这就是你在这里看到的,我会说这行实际上是 |
| 252 | what connects writing and drawing so both both arts are consisting in lines one amazing | 将写作和绘画联系起来 两种艺术都用一行惊人的线组成 |
| 253 | benefit of this book is your essay you write a really important historical essay describing | 这本书的好处是 你写了一篇非常重要的历史论文 |
| 254 | how these drawings did and didn't come to light before you finally put them together | 这些画是怎样的,没有曝光 在你终于把它们拼凑起来之前 |
| 255 | but you also write an analysis of kafka's drawing and writing in which you go through | 但你也写了对卡夫卡的画作和写作的分析 |
| 256 | some of his relationship to visual art which i'd like to talk about a bit if you don't mind | 他和视觉艺术的一些关系 我想谈谈 如果你不介意的话 |
| 257 | but also the relationship between drawing and writing for him and a really illuminating phrase | 还有他画画和写作的关系 以及一个很有启发性的短语 |
| 258 | but maybe you could describe it what it means a little bit for us comes at the end of the text | 但也许你可以描述一下 这对我们来说意味着什么 在文字的结尾 |
| 259 | you claim there's a negative dialectic of writing and drawing say what what you mean by that yeah | 你说写作和绘画有负面的辩证法 说出你的意思 |
| 260 | um i mean the example we see here is already an expression of this somehow negative dialectics | 嗯,我的意思是,我们在这里看到的例子 已经是一个表达 这个消极的辩证法 |
| 261 | and if i i say negative i mean writing and drawing are by no means harmoniously illuminating each | 如果我说负面,我的意思是写作和绘画 绝不是和谐地点亮每一个 |
| 262 | other in the sense for example that drawing is an illustration of what he's writing or vice versa | 其他的,比如说,绘画就是他的写作或反之 |
| 263 | the writing is description what he's drawing so this would be somehow like yeah a positive | 写作是描述他画的画 所以这有点像是正面的 |
| 264 | reinforcements of the two arts but for kafka there was i would say always in different ways | 两种艺术的加强,但对于卡夫卡,我会说 总是以不同的方式 |
| 265 | there were tensions between both of of these arts so very rarely he is really showing something that | 这两种艺术之间都存在紧张关系 所以他很少表现出来 |
| 266 | he is writing mostly he is showing something if he is connecting it to the writing like in these | 他大多是写作 他正在展示一些东西 如果他把它和写作联系起来 喜欢在这些 |
| 267 | two cases we see here he is describing he's showing and drawing something that he cannot describe | 我们在这里看到的两起案件 他描述他正在展示 和画的东西 他无法描述 |
| 268 | and where the writing is failing then he uses the drawing and this already makes clear that | 而写作失败的地方,他用图画,这已经表明 |
| 269 | the drawing is able of something that the writing is maybe not able to um of displaying of making | 绘画可以 的东西,写 可能不能嗯 展示制作 |
| 270 | something visible of expressing something that that you cannot describe um and in in in these | 表达出你无法描述的事物 和其中 |
| 271 | {\fn黑体\fs22\bord1\shad0\3aHBE\4aH00\fscx67\fscy66\2cHFFFFFF\3cH808080}如果卡夫卡在画什么 | |
| 272 | he was describing on the writing um it's mostly in that way that's that's yeah he is doing something | 他在写作中描述 嗯... 大多是这样的... |
| 273 | by drawing that he cannot do by writing and and even stronger is this negative dialectics when | 他无法写作的画 更强壮的是这种负面辩证法 |
| 274 | it comes to the question of the um yeah the illustration of his texts um which of course | 他的短信的插图 当然 |
| 275 | was never done by himself so he never illustrated one of his texts there were many artists many | 他从来没有一个人做 所以他从来没有展示过 他的一篇短信 有很多艺术家 |
| 276 | 以Elze Laska Schuyler为例的作家 是一个很强的例子 | |
| 277 | of a of a writer who was illustrating her books uh full of of these yeah colorful oriental drawings | 一个写着她书的作家 充满了这些东方色彩的画 |
| 278 | and kafka never did that so he never moved to somehow illuminating the the writing by drawings | 卡夫卡从不这么做 所以他从不动身 以图画来点亮写作 |
| 279 | but others did and kafka was very very hesitant about that even to an extent where it was clear | 但其他人确实这么做了 卡夫卡对此非常犹豫 即便如此 |
| 280 | that he was rejecting it and i would say why why was he rejecting the illustration of his text | 他拒绝,我要说 为什么他拒绝他的文字插图 |
| 281 | with art because just because he knew about the power of the image because it was clear to him | 艺术只是因为他知道 图像的力量 因为他很清楚 |
| 282 | that the image is in a way much more persuasive than the writing because it it's it pops into | 图像在某种程度上比写作更有说服力 因为它会弹入 |
| 283 | your eyes it's it's it's it's urging you on you much more than the the writing that you have | 你的眼睛是它 它敦促你 比你写的东西多得多 |
| 284 | painfully and with a lot of of labor you have to to work on that and to read and to try to understand | 痛苦的和大量的劳动,你必须工作 和阅读和尝试理解 |
| 285 | while the drawing and the image you you can immediately see what's what's there that really | 当你看到画和图像时 你可以立刻看到什么是真正的 |
| 286 | illuminates a lot for me that the drawings are never illustrations when they're related | 对我来说,这些图画在关系上 从来不是插图 |
| 287 | a little bit later on to the writing and that they have a relationship to the writing that's | 稍后再谈写作 他们和写作的关系 |
| 288 | discrepant they don't carry on the same idea or gesture but also you're saying that there's | 他们的思维和姿态都不一样 但你也说有 |
| 289 | something in the drawing that might help us understand the writing and that your essay | 画中的东西 可能有助于我们理解 写作和你的论文 |
| 290 | really makes very perspicacious and it illuminates this problem for me that everyone is always | 这让我意识到了这个问题 每个人都是 |
| 291 | looking for what we could call sense in Kafka's writing but if the drawings give you anything | 在卡夫卡的写作中寻找我们所谓的意义 但如果那些画给你什么 |
| 292 | they show you that what he's driving for when he breaks down and realizes that only in drawing | 他们告诉你,当他崩溃, 并意识到,只有在绘画 |
| 293 | for example can he express something is that there really isn't sense there's only let's say | 比如说,他能表达什么是 真正的没有意义 只有我们说 |
| 294 | the depiction of figures in a scene and you can't really look for meaning in these sketches not in | 画面中人物的描写 你无法真正寻找这些草图中的意义 |
| 295 | that way you see gesture you see bodies extended in a certain way you see the differences in heights | 以某种方式延伸身体 并看到高度的差异 |
| 296 | and maybe attitudes towards something but they're not semantic and you could say that he struggled | 也许对某事的态度 但他们不是语义学家 你可以说他挣扎 |
| 297 | in his writing to produce a non-semantic writing this is something that you're calling a schrift | 在他的写作 产生一个非语义性写作 这是你所谓的 分裂者 |
| 298 | built writing as image and I think that's right if you read a Kafka story everyone's like well why | 写成影像,我想如果你读一个卡夫卡的故事,那就对了,每个人都很好,为什么 |
| 299 | does he turn into a bug in the metamorphosis what does this mean and you can do a theological | 他在变形过程中变成虫子 这是什么意思 你可以做神学 |
| 300 | interpretation a psychoanalytic interpretation you can look for the meaning but just allowing | 解释一种心理分析解释 你可以寻找意义 但只是允许 |
| 301 | in writing to be a sketch of a particular figure is very difficult after thousands of years of | 写成一个特定人物的草图 在几千年后很难做到 |
| 302 | trying to make meaning with writing so I see how the sketches could be actually the heart of his work | 试着用写作来创造意义 所以我知道草图 如何成为他作品的核心 |
| 303 | and you know at this point like this he's disappointed that the writing can't just | 此时此刻 他感到失望的是 写作不能只是 |
| 304 | simply give you the attitudes of bodies in a room talking about illustrations of his stories I wonder | 只是给你一些身体的态度 在一个房间里 谈论他的故事的插图 |
| 305 | if you want to go through that question and maybe also talk a little bit about | 如果你想通过 这个问题,也许 也谈一点点 |
| 306 | the circles that he moved in and what role images played there and where art was vis-a-vis | 他搬进的圈子, 和什么角色 图像在那里扮演 和在哪里艺术相对于 |
| 307 | literature in Prague Prague was a kind of hotbed of poetry and fiction writing also of little | 布拉格的文学是诗歌的温床 和虚构的写作 |
| 308 | magazines that Kafka read and his friends published in and he published in and there | 卡夫卡读的杂志 和他的朋友出版 和他出版 在和那里 |
| 309 | is a visual component to those magazines as well so maybe we open up now to a kind of a broader context | 也是这些杂志的视觉成分 所以也许我们现在可以打开 一种更广泛的背景 |
| 310 | yeah I think I could start with getting back to the question of the illustration of his | 是的,我想我可以开始 回到问题 关于他的插图 |
| 311 | of his books and how we reacted to that even though this is historically a little bit later | 他的书和我们对此的反应 尽管这在历史上有点晚 |
| 312 | but if you briefly go back so this is his first book Betrachtung which is extremely | 但是,如果你简短的回去,所以这是他的第一本书 Betrachtung,这是极 |
| 313 | let's say strong displaying the writing so it's all about the writing there's no drawing here | 我们来大力展示这篇作品吧 所以这篇作品没有绘画 |
| 314 | at first sight you don't see a drawing it's it's very how is how would you translate schlicht it's | 乍一看,你看不到一幅画... ... ...... |
| 315 | very the book is not spare or bare bare exactly bare spare so there's there there are no ornaments | 书不是空的,也不是赤裸的 所以没有装饰品 |
| 316 | or nothing what you could could understand at first sight as as ornaments but if you see his | 或者你一眼就能理解的 就像是装饰品 但如果你看见他 |
| 317 | letter here to the publisher Ernst Rohboldt in 1912 he is asking for the largest types possible | 给1912年出版商Ernst Rohboldt的信 他要求尽可能多的种类 |
| 318 | I mean writing he means actually the types the largest letters possible and and if you see here | 我的意思是写他实际上是指 最大的字母类型,如果你看到这里 |
| 319 | this is the the first edition these letters are huge they are much too too large for any kind of | 这是第一版 这些字母是巨大的 他们太大了,任何种类的 |
| 320 | normal writing so they are they are by no way filling up a normal page so the book Betrachtung | 正常的写作,所以他们不是 填满一个正常的页 所以书Betrachtung |
| 321 | is it's it's not a small format it's it's quite a large book and you see how huge these these | 它不是一种小格式 它是一个相当大的书 你看这些有多大 |
| 322 | letters were and Kafka wanted that and what so I think this this comes to the point where | 信件是,而卡夫卡 想要的是什么, 所以我认为这是 到到这一点 |
| 323 | he had this quite visual understanding of the writing writing was it's it's at the same time | 他对写作有相当的视觉理解 是同时发生的 |
| 324 | yeah these these pages they are somehow like like the the effect is extremely visual | 这几页好像效果非常直观 |
| 325 | so if you if you just go to these through through the book and and read then these texts you | 所以如果你通过书读读这些文字 |
| 326 | you read the writing you see the writing in in its physical um yeah form in its corporeality | 你读的字,你看到字的物理形式,嗯,是啊形式,它的共性 |
| 327 | the letters are on the white of the paper they are here and and it's very remarkable that Kafka | 信都写在报纸的白纸上,卡夫卡很了不起 |
| 328 | had this this completely visual understanding of the writing and I'm sure this comes from his | 我敢肯定,这是来自他的 |
| 329 | let's say his attentiveness toward the image and the writing as as image and we should | 假设他对形象和写作的细心 作为形象,我们应该 |
| 330 | briefly before we move on that all of the very small pieces like this one in this book | 在那之前,我们先把书中 这么一小块东西都写下来 |
| 331 | are images exactly there's almost nothing beyond the image here he is you could say | 照片里几乎没有其他东西了 他可以说 |
| 332 | sketching out the trunks of tree trunks of trees in snow and how you can and can't see | 画出雪中树干树干 以及你如何能和看不见 |
| 333 | where they come from emerging out of the snow and you can't see the ground and he's | 他们从雪中出来,你看不到地面,他 |
| 334 | uh moving back and forth between um wanting to pin the image to a very clear outlines | 嗯,前后移动 介于嗯 想把图像 在一个非常清晰的轮廓 |
| 335 | but also being suspicious that the trees are only apparently connected to the ground we don't have | 也怀疑这些树只和我们没有的地面相连 |
| 336 | a translation of this one but they're so imagistic absolutely uh on two levels um and you're correct | 翻译了这本书 但他们在两个层面 绝对是想象力 |
| 337 | not only the writing as um as yeah I mean the corporate reality of the letters | 不只是写作 像嗯,是的,我的意思是公司的现实 信件 |
| 338 | are images but it's uh as we see the writing without starting even to read but when you | 是图像,但是我们一看到写作 连读都没读,但当你 |
| 339 | read the text it's it's about it's it's I would say it's like a painting it's like um and to me | 读一下这段文字... ... ...... |
| 340 | actually a very much black and white more like a drawing than a painting there's no colors here | 其实黑白的画比画画更像画 这里没有颜色 |
| 341 | I mean the trees in the snow the trunks lying in the snow and the question are they connected | 我是说雪中的树 躺在雪中的树干 问题是它们有联系 |
| 342 | to the ground or not this is I mean it's it's like the letters on the paper um it's it's more or less | 到底有没有,我是说,它就像纸上的信 嗯,它多少 |
| 343 | an image for the writing that he is giving but you're right it's an image so the drawing and | 他给的写作图像 但你是对的 这是个图像 所以画画 |
| 344 | the writing here are really intertwined in every possible way in the layout of the page his attention | 这里的书写在页面的布局中 千方百计的相互交织 |
| 345 | to that in the contents of the writing which is more like a sketch didn't Kafka paint or what was | 更像是卡夫卡画或者什么 |
| 346 | his relationship to painting or other art in Prague or in his yeah yeah I mean to to start | 他和布拉格的绘画或其他艺术的关系 或者在他的作品里 是的 是的 我想开始 |
| 347 | to answer the question I could go to to the second and third example of illustration of his own text | 回答这个问题,我可以去 以第二和第三个例子 说明他自己的文本 |
| 348 | so um he himself never painted so he was um let's call it only drawing I mean he was really | 所以,嗯,他自己从来没有画过 所以,他是,嗯,让我们叫它 只是画 我的意思是他真的 |
| 349 | drawing so it's all it looks all like what he what he has done it's all like fragments or | 画画的都是他所做的事 就像碎片一样 |
| 350 | or attempts or sketches they are not completed drawings that he would hang on the wall and have | 或尝试或草图 他们没有完成的图画 他会挂在墙上 |
| 351 | no large size so it's all rather small size and rather like exercises or something like that | 没有大尺寸 所以都是小尺寸 更像是练习什么的 |
| 352 | fragments um and you see here the contrast to to let's say to something which can be called | 碎片,嗯,你在这里看到对比 让我们说一些可以称为 |
| 353 | I mean it's a print it's not it's not a painting in oil and converse but it's it's a print but it's | 我的意思是它是一个印刷品 它不是油画 和反演,但它是一个印刷品 |
| 354 | color the original and um I mean the situation that Kafka was in here was really strange | 彩色的原版和嗯,我的意思是 情况卡夫卡在这里 真的很奇怪 |
| 355 | when he wrote his second book which is the Stoker the Heizer in 1913 we have to imagine he gets the | 当他写他的第二本书 是1913年的"海泽人史托克" 我们必须想象他得到 |
| 356 | package to his home delivered excited he opens up the package um looking forward to the books | 寄到家里的包裹很兴奋 他打开了包裹 期待书籍 |
| 357 | and then he takes one out opens it up and on the left side you see what he sees um he sees the | 然后他拿出一个 打开它,在左边,你看他看到什么,嗯,他看到 |
| 358 | title and uh with subtitle a fragment and on the left hand he sees this um yeah this this this | 标题和呃 副标题一个片段 在左手 他看到这个 嗯... |
| 359 | picture with the subtitle in the harbor of New York um and he is um to say it's only um let's | 图片与字幕 在纽约港,嗯,他是 um说,这只是嗯,让我们 |
| 360 | he was immediately taking the pen and writing his publish and saying that um | 他马上拿起笔 写他的刊物 并说,嗯, |
| 361 | what happened here what's that and and and this yeah this this this image is much too | 这里发生的一切 是什么,还有这个... ...是的... |
| 362 | too strong for my writing and even too beautiful to for my writing and um so he wasn't even | 对我写作来说太强了 对我写作来说也太美了 所以他根本不是 |
| 363 | aware that his book will be illustrated the the publisher didn't say that to him | 他的书会被画出来 出版商没有告诉他 |
| 364 | he didn't inform him about that he just did it because in that time which is the time of | 他没有告诉他,他刚刚这样做,因为在那段时间里, |
| 365 | expressionism it was kind of a um yeah it belonged to the books they they they it was like a um | 表现主义是一种嗯,是的,它属于 书籍他们 他们就像一个嗯。 |
| 366 | yeah a tendency to illustrate the books um also on the back but on the background that's uh that | 是啊,一个倾向 说明书 嗯,同样在背面,但背景是,呃, |
| 367 | the arts are belonging together but books are getting more let's say closer to art books and | 艺术是属于一起的 但是书籍越来越接近艺术书籍 |
| 368 | so on um and he was alerted and that's why when his next book which was actually | 所以他被提醒了 所以他的下一本书 |
| 369 | the metamorphosis when that came out um he wrote another letter to his publisher | 他又给出版商写了一封信 |
| 370 | um um giving him very clear instructions what he are what he is not allowed to do | 嗯,嗯,给他非常明确的指示 他是什么 他不允许做 |
| 371 | and what he says here don't show the insect so the insect itself cannot be depicted it can | 他在这里说的话不能让昆虫看到 所以昆虫本身不能被描绘出来 |
| 372 | not even be shown from a distance and he's really very strongly making that point and why is this | 甚至没有从远处显示, 他真的非常强烈 提出这一点和为什么这是 |
| 373 | so interesting again he is he was so much aware of the power of of the image as an illustration | 多么有趣的是,他是如此的意识到 图像的力量 作为插图 |
| 374 | and that's what he so much rejected he didn't want let's say the fantasy of the reader be | 这就是他拒绝的原因 他不想说读者的幻想 |
| 375 | reduced by uh by an image or let's say of an insect um and uh and that's why he he was | 被一个图像减少,或者让我们说一个昆虫 嗯,呃,这就是为什么他 |
| 376 | warning the publisher of doing that and say please don't do that so i think to speculate | 警告出版商说不要这么做 所以我想推测 |
| 377 | for a minute just a speculative moment what's wrong with illustration yeah i i think in kafka's | 片刻只是猜测一下 插图有什么问题 我想在卡夫卡 |
| 378 | view and that's i mean what he also explicitly says is that precisely he knew about the power | 我意思是,他还明确地说, 他确切地知道权力 |
| 379 | of the image and that an image that is next to a writing in the sense of an illustration | 图像和图示意义上写作旁边的图像 |
| 380 | showing what is written and displaying what is written is to quite an extent | 显示什么是写的东西 显示什么是写的东西 在某种程度上 |
| 381 | maybe even disturbing or even destroying what has been written just because it it makes | 可能甚至打扰甚至摧毁 已经写的东西 仅仅因为它使 |
| 382 | everything so clear and so um let's say one probably even one dimensional and that's what | 一切都那么清楚 所以让我们说一个甚至一个维度 |
| 383 | he wanted to avoid avoid any kind of of let's say illustration in that sense of of making it | 他想要避免任何一种让我们说 插图的意义 使它 |
| 384 | explicit and maybe what you should say said before a type of illustration or illustration | 在某种插图或插图之前你应该说的话 |
| 385 | is a type of image that gives sense that is maybe uh one dimensional that says okay here i show it | 是那种能让人感知的图像 可能是 呃 一个维度 说好的 |
| 386 | to you and this will be wrong that will be the problem having taught the metamorphosis for | 对你来说,这是错误的, 这将是一个问题, 已经学会了变形 |
| 387 | for many years one thing that comes to mind right now because of this discussion is in fact what's | 多年来,因为这次讨论, 现在想到的一件事,其实是什么 |
| 388 | so exciting to students and to me is that you can't picture the bug the vermin it's really hard to | 学生和我都很兴奋 你不能想象虫子 害虫 |
| 389 | figure out where the limbs are part of that is because it's described from the perspective of the | 找出四肢是哪里的一部分 因为它是从人们的角度描述的 |
| 390 | person who is has just become the bug so in fact to see it from the outside the the aim is to see | 刚刚变成虫子的人 所以实际上从外面看 目的是看 |
| 391 | it from the the vermin's perspective which would be maybe impossible to depict but people are | 从害虫的角度来看,也许无法描绘,但人 |
| 392 | thinking how is this possible where are its legs what does this mean to turn over on its belly | 想想这怎么可能 它的腿在哪里 这是什么意思 翻转它的肚子 |
| 393 | that seems to be the the real fascination of the story to not be able to fully visualize | 这似乎是故事的真正迷 无法完全想象 |
| 394 | right exactly so i mean anyhow the the transformation the metamorphosis | 完全正确,所以,我的意思是 无论如何转变 变形 |
| 395 | to the insect is by no means something which is reduced to something like a let's say a real | 对昆虫来说,绝对不是什么 被归结为像一个东西 让我们说一个真正的 |
| 396 | insect or yeah something which is real it's it's much more on a let's say on the symbolic | 昆虫还是什么是真实的 它更像是在象征上 |
| 397 | or on a transformative level what happens there and and i think that was precisely | 或者在变革的层面上 发生什么 我认为这正是 |
| 398 | the the anxiety of kafka that the image would would destroy that i mean the the illustration | 卡夫卡的焦虑 认为图像会破坏 我的意思是插图 |
| 399 | and that is way why he actually what he did in this letter also is that he made a suggestion | 这也是为什么他在这封信中所做的 也是他建议 |
| 400 | how to illustrate if it has to be done so and that's actually the lower part of this letter | 如何说明,如果必须这样做, 实际上这是信的下半部分 |
| 401 | you can read it if you like he gives a suggestion what he could do and what he says here is | 如果你喜欢,你可以读它 他给出一个建议,他能做什么,什么 他说在这里是 |
| 402 | the parents and the sister in the lightened room with the door open up the adjoining room that | 父母和姐姐在灯光的房间里 门打开旁边的房间 |
| 403 | lies in the darkness and it's quite interesting that the illustrator did in the end precisely | 隐藏在黑暗中 插画家最后所做的事非常有趣 |
| 404 | what kafka wanted so otto mastrake that was actually the artist who did the cover so he | 卡夫卡想要的是什么 如此的otto mastrake 其实是艺术家 谁做了封面 所以他 |
| 405 | followed hundred percent kafka's suggestion and in that sense kafka indeed did illustrate his own | 百分之百地听从卡夫卡的建议 从这个意义上说,卡夫卡确实说明了他自己 |
| 406 | book in yeah he he gave the let's say the let's say you have to say that the recipe what what | 他给了我们机会 说说你必须说 食谱是什么 |
| 407 | could be done if it had to be done if it really needed to be done then only in that way so you | 如果真的需要这样做的话,就能够做到这一点,那么只有这样你才能做到这一点。 |
| 408 | see it but you can somehow you have an idea that there is something in the dark behind this door | 你看,但你能不知何故 你有一个想法,有东西 在黑暗的门后面 |
| 409 | one thing you know about kafka if you read enough of the letters is that behind politeness and | 如果你读够了那些信 你对卡夫卡有一点了解 就是在礼貌的背后 |
| 410 | deference and other things is a iron control situations absolutely so what was kafka looking | 尊重和其他事情是铁控制 绝对如此 |
| 411 | at that gave him some of the impulses to draw in the way that he did what did he like if it | 给他一些冲动来吸引他 做他喜欢做的事 |
| 412 | yeah maybe this leads back to your former question that yeah asking what was the context of kafka's | 是啊,也许这可以追溯到 你以前的问题 是的,问什么是卡夫卡的背景 |
| 413 | understanding of art and i think that's also something that we didn't know so far because | 理解艺术 我认为这也是我们目前不知道的 |
| 414 | also here the sources haven't been really known and allow me to jump to an earlier phase of this | 也在这里,消息源 还没有真正知道 并允许我跳到这个早期 |
| 415 | presentation and it is really interesting that as i already said kafka did sorry this is a bit | 正如我说过的 卡夫卡确实很抱歉 这有点... |
| 416 | slower i cannot control it so good okay i start here so we have to imagine that as i already said | 慢点,我控制不了它 好,从这里开始,我们得想象一下,我已经说过了 |
| 417 | in 1901 he started his studies of law then in the second semester he he yeah he was already done | 1901年他开始学习法律 在第二学期他已经完成了 |
| 418 | with law i said no i don't really like it it's too dry and then he studied literature art history | 法律,我说不,我真的不喜欢 它太干,然后他学习文学艺术史 |
| 419 | and philosophy and not only that it's it gets very if you look closer we see that at that time | 和哲学,不只是它 它得到非常,如果你仔细看 我们看到在那个时候 |
| 420 | he was really going into the study of art meaning that he was | 他真的去研究艺术 意味着他是 |
| 421 | reading the the respective journals like the the kunstwart which was at the time | 阅读相应的日记 就像当时的昆士瓦 |
| 422 | the most important journal for art and also literature and the main let's say person of | 最重要的杂志 艺术和文学 和主要让我们说的人 |
| 423 | for him was his school friend oscar pollock at the time he didn't know marx bolt yet | 当时他还不知道马克思·波罗克 |
| 424 | and oscar pollock who actually turned to get an art historian himself he was yeah played quite a | 和奥斯卡·波罗克 谁实际上转 得到一个艺术史学家自己 他被 耶 扮演相当 |
| 425 | large role on on kafka's growing attentiveness towards art and we see that also that he was | 在卡夫卡对艺术越来越关注上 扮演了重要的角色 我们看到他也是 |
| 426 | buying art pieces here reproductions and these two they hang in kafka's | 在这里购买艺术品 复制品和这两个 他们挂在卡夫卡的 |
| 427 | writing room in his in his room the block man by hans thoma and the dancing men at | 在他房间里写房间 汉斯·托马和跳舞的男人 |
| 428 | a relief an antique relief reproduction that he also had so he collected some | 一份古董的复制品 所以他收集了一些 |
| 429 | pieces of art reproductions and we see later also originals and he | 艺术复制品 我们以后再看原作和他 |
| 430 | he got the correspondent of art in the reading and speech hall of the german students at the | 他让德国学生的 阅读和演讲厅的艺术记者 |
| 431 | university in prague so which means he he was really into art at that time which means very | 他当时真的喜欢艺术 意思是 |
| 432 | concretely organized events he was buying books or reading books related to art you see it's on | 具体组织的活动 他买书 或阅读与艺术有关的书籍 你看到它正在 |
| 433 | the very low level so this is from these procedures of of the the reading and speech | 水平非常低 所以这是从这些 阅读和演讲的程序 |
| 434 | hall of the german students which was a student club more or less a student union exactly so | 德意志学生的礼堂 是学生俱乐部 或多或少是学生会 |
| 435 | kafka was very active in this in this student reunion and i would even go so far to say that | 卡夫卡在学生聚会中非常活跃 我甚至会说 |
| 436 | for him and also for his fellow students like marx bolt himself and oscar pollock it was much | 他和他的同学一样,像马克斯 螺栓自己和奥斯卡花粉。 |
| 437 | more important they were much more enthusiastic about the activities in the student club than | 他们对学生俱乐部的活动比对 |
| 438 | the study program on in the law itself because the law i mean you do it it's it's like a duty | 法律本身的学习计划 因为法律,我的意思是,你这样做 它就像一项义务 |
| 439 | you have to do it but it's not the place where your heart is beating the heart is beating in | 你必须这么做,但这不是你心脏跳动的地方 |
| 440 | literature and art so that's why all these students that are extremely active in this | 文学艺术,这就是为什么所有这些学生... ... |
| 441 | in the student club and what they did for example and this i think is is another interesting turn | 在学生俱乐部里,他们做了什么 比如说,我认为这是另一个有趣的转折 |
| 442 | is they they were electrified when a Prague artist named Emil Orlik was exhibiting in 1902 | 1902年一位名叫Emil Orlik的布拉格艺术家 展出时 他们被电化了 |
| 443 | a huge exhibition in Prague and he was Emil Orlik was at that time very highly respected and he was | 在布拉格的大型展览,他是埃米尔·奥里克 当时非常受人尊敬,他非常受欢迎 |
| 444 | just getting back from Japan he went to Japan in order to learn the Japanese | 他刚从日本回来,为了学日本人去了日本 |
| 445 | wood print and the art of wood printing and on the left side you see a print | 木印和木印艺术 在左边你可以看到一个印刷品 |
| 446 | which is not by a Japanese artist but much more by Emil Orlik who was a bohemian | 不是日本艺术家 而是波希米亚人Emil Orlik |
| 447 | Prague artist and but you see he was also reflecting on the way the wood printing is | 布拉格艺术家,但你看 他也在思考木质印刷的方式 |
| 448 | let's say changing the aesthetics that we are around 1900 aware of if you just go back to the | 改变我们1900年左右的美学吧 如果你回到 |
| 449 | that we just saw it's very much 19th century art it's very let's say even bourgeois Wiedermeier | 我们刚刚看到的是19世纪的艺术 可以说甚至是资产阶级的维德梅尔 |
| 450 | what we see Hans Thoma this is it's very German you see the peasants and the ploughman and and | 我们所看到的汉斯・托马 这是非常的德国 你看到农民和犁人,和和 |
| 451 | the dirt and so on and the ground the trees but here the Japanese art is that all these students | {\fn华文楷体\fs20\bord1\shad1\1cHE0E0E0\2cH000000}這些泥土等等,在樹上和地面上,但是日本的藝術是 這些學生 |
| 452 | were yeah totally electrified by this Japanese art including Kafka it was much more abstract | 完全被日本的艺术,包括卡夫卡 给电了,更抽象 |
| 453 | it was a totally different aesthetics and you see here the drawer his art is concentrated in the | 这是完全不同的美学, 你看这里的抽屉 他的艺术集中在 |
| 454 | line it's just one line and Orlik is wonderfully bringing that to the image that I mean this is | 线条只是一行,奥利克非常出色地 将它带到我意思是 |
| 455 | artist he's he's drawing a line on the white paper that's it it's very slim it's very | 画家,他在白纸上画一条线 就是它非常的瘦 |
| 456 | it's very even abstract it's it's close to abstraction and I think this was very important | 它甚至非常抽象 它接近抽象 我认为这是非常重要的 |
| 457 | for Kafka Kafka was totally electrified by this Japanese art and you see here a postcard that he | 对于卡夫卡,卡夫卡是完全电气化的 日本艺术,你在这里看到明信片 他 |
| 458 | {\fn黑体\fs22\bord1\shad0\3aHBE\4aH00\fscx67\fscy66\2cHFFFFFF\3cH808080}他正在写明信片上 {\fn黑体\fs22\bord1\shad0\3aHBE\4aH00\fscx67\fscy66\2cHFFFFFF\3cH808080}我亲爱的Max {\fn黑体\fs22\bord1\shad0\3aHBE\4aH00\fscx67\fscy66\2cHFFFFFF\3cH808080}我吻你 | |
| 459 | on the dirty but my most beautiful postcard and it's a print by Hiroshige | 我最漂亮的明信片上写的 是弘治的指纹 |
| 460 | so it's it's very clear that for Kafka this the Japanese art was was was somehow | 很明显,对卡夫卡来说,日本的艺术是 |
| 461 | a change a total change in the aesthetics that leads much more to his type of drawing than | 美学的总变化 导致他的绘画类型远比 |
| 462 | the Kunstwart aesthetics which is totally far away from what Kafka did so only to give to to | 昆士瓦特美学 完全远离卡夫卡的美学 |
| 463 | context of his of art for him yeah I realize there's much more and much more in the book | 他的艺术背景 我知道书里还有很多 |
| 464 | including his relationship to Prague Expressionism and artists who were friends of his like Alfred | 包括他和布拉格表达主义的关系 以及像阿尔弗雷德这样的艺术家 |
| 465 | Kubin from whom you could learn a lot about Kafka I think especially the subjects he was kind of the | 库宾,你可以从他那里学到很多关于卡夫卡的知识... ...我特别想他所研究的题目... |
| 466 | the Prague Goya almost maybe we should stop here since we've come on a big arc from the discovery | 布拉格高雅号也许应该停在这里 因为我们已经从发现中 来到一个大弧 |
| 467 | of these works of art to their context and their function in Kafka's intellectual literary world | 以及他们在卡夫卡知识文学界的功能 |
| 468 | and open the floor to some questions I want to also point out that in addition to | 我还想指出,除此之外,我还想请大家发言。 |
| 469 | the drawings being reproduced here in beautiful facsimiles that there are essays there's also | 这里的图画以美丽的传真复制 说有散文还有 |
| 470 | it's basically a catalogue raisonne of all of these works so all of the details of the works | 这基本上是所有这些作品的目录理由 所以所有作品的细节 |
| 471 | are there and there's an essay by the critical theorist Judith Butler on the metaphysics of | 有一篇批评论者朱迪思·巴特勒的论文 讲述了人类的物理学 |
| 472 | these drawings the way bodies are looking for ground to stand on but don't find them | 这些画 尸体寻找地面的方式 站立,但找不到它们 |
| 473 | a really full volume where you can get much more context than we could give here in the meantime | 一个非常完整的音量,你可以 得到更多的背景 比我们可以在这里提供 同时 |
| 474 | if it's okay with you Andreas we'll ask the audience if there's questions great thank you | 如果你不介意,安德里亚斯,我们会问观众 如果有问题 伟大的谢谢你 |
| 475 | much Andreas and thank you Paul most fascinating conversation if people have questions which I'm | 安德列亚,谢谢你保罗 最迷人的谈话 如果人们有问题,我 |
| 476 | sure there are many but if you're able to to verbalize them feel free to either turn turn on | 肯定有很多人,但是如果你能说出话来 要么就开机吧 |
| 477 | your raise your hand on the zoom function and we can call on you directly or you can use the chat | 在缩放功能上举手 我们可以直接调用你 或者用聊天 |
| 478 | box on the bottom of your screen to write any questions that you may have and so we do have | 在屏幕底部的框中写出您可能存在的任何问题,所以我们确实有 |
| 479 | they both both Paul and Andreas have agreed to stay a little bit longer for any questions | 保罗和安德里亚斯都同意 留久一点 任何问题 |
| 480 | that that people may have both Paul and Andreas have agreed to stay a little bit longer for any questions that people may have | 也许保罗和安德里亚斯都同意 留久一点 任何问题 |
| 481 | So, and obviously this is all very new and unknown to most people I'm sure so it may take a while for people to process what they've been hearing and seeing. | 所以,很明显,这对大多数人来说都是非常新奇和未知的, 我相信人们可能要花一段时间 来处理他们一直听到和看到的东西。 |
| 482 | Yeah, feel free to ask any questions. | 是的,随便问问题吧 |
| 483 | In the meantime, I'll get us started. | 同时,我会让我们开始。 |
| 484 | Andres, is there a sense at all of why his, the two friends that you mentioned decided not to bring these drawings to light, any earlier and why why was it so important | 安德烈斯,你提到的那两个朋友 为什么决定不把图画曝光呢? |
| 485 | to them to keep it a secret? | 让他们保守秘密? |
| 486 | That's a complicated and a very good question. | 这是一个复杂和非常好的问题。 |
| 487 | I tried to be as short as possible. | 我试图尽可能短。 |
| 488 | And it is on the one hand, clear that Max Broad, he showed a few of these drawings after Kafka's death, starting actually in the year 1937. | 一方面,很明显,马克斯·布罗德(Max Broad)在卡夫卡去世后展示了一些这些画作,实际上从1937年开始. |
| 489 | When writing the biography, the first biography on Franz Kafka. | 在写传记时,第一部关于弗朗茨·卡夫卡的传记. |
| 490 | So in the end he added a few of these drawings, which actually we do know now. | 最后,他又添加了几幅这些画, 而实际上我们现在已经知道了。 |
| 491 | I think some of you already knew a few of these drawings, they have been put on the covers of the pocketbooks of Kafka so I think they are known, they got known but these are actually only very few but the large part of these drawings, he kept away, | 我想你们中有些人已经知道一些这些图画, 被放在卡夫卡的袖珍书的封面上, 所以我认为这些图画是已知的, 他们已经知道,但实际上这些图画很少, |
| 492 | he really locked them away and never, let's say, never even really tried to edit them. | 他真的把他们关起来 从来没有,让我们说, 甚至从来没有真正试图编辑他们。 |
| 493 | Even though, and this is probably the more concrete part of my answer, he had opportunities. | 尽管,这可能是我回答中更具体的部分,他有机会。 |
| 494 | From the 50s on, there have been several publisher who turned to him and said okay you have shown a few example of these drawings, why don't we publish them all. | 从50年代开始,有好几个出版商 转向他,并说好的 你展示了一些这些图画的例子, 为什么我们不出版它们的全部。 |
| 495 | And actually, the truth is, Max Broad, in that time, didn't want to do that. | 实际上,事实上, Max Broad, 在那个时候, 不想这样做。 |
| 496 | And the reasons for that are quite complex. | 其原因相当复杂。 |
| 497 | On the one hand, they didn't belong to him anymore because he donated all this material to his second wife. | 一方面,他们不再属于他,因为他把这些材料都捐给了他的第二任妻子. |
| 498 | And on the other hand, he was at that time, which is in the 50s and 60s, Broad was already quite aged, he has been criticized quite strongly about his way to edit and to interpret Kafka, especially also his way to edit his texts. | 而另一方面,当时他,也就是50年代和60年代,布罗德已经相当年迈了,对于他编辑和解释卡夫卡的方式,尤其是他编辑文本的方式,他受到相当强烈的批评. |
| 499 | And he was, yeah, he was very anxious that he could be criticized strongly of how to edit these drawings so he felt very insecure about that, and didn't actually, he really didn't want to do that. | 他,是的,他非常焦虑, 他可能会被强烈批评 如何编辑这些画, 所以他觉得非常不安全, 实际上,他并不想这样做。 |
| 500 | So he rejected the possibilities that he had. | 所以他拒绝了他拥有的可能性。 |
| 501 | That's so fascinating, just to think about how different kind of what we would think of as very like worldly factors can impact these things. | 这太令人着迷了, 想想我们所认为的 与世俱来的因素 会如何影响这些东西。 |
| 502 | If there's no questions right away in the gallery, maybe I could ask you something about your other work. | 如果画廊里现在没有问题 也许我可以问你 你其他的作品 |
| 503 | One thing I know about you, aside from being a world expert on Kafka, which there are not that many, is that you, you're attracted to the Kafka's that nobody knows. | 除了做卡夫卡的世界专家之外,我了解你 除了你,你被没人知道的卡夫卡吸引了之外。 |
| 504 | There's a bunch of things we didn't know about Kafka. | 我们不知道卡夫卡的事 |
| 505 | I didn't know when I was a graduate student, and you were kind enough to have lunch with me or something, that he was into seances. | 我不知道当我是研究生的时候, 你对我很好, 和我吃午饭什么的, 他喜欢神。 |
| 506 | Could you talk a little bit about some of the other things he was into that we don't know, including his spiritualism? | 你能谈谈他喜欢的其他一些东西吗? 包括他的精神主义 |
| 507 | Yeah, the unknown Kafka. | 对 未知的卡夫卡 |
| 508 | I think one aspect we didn't talk about, but what could be, yeah, say an aspect of the unknown Kafka still coming from the drawing, that is his sense of humor. | 我想有一个方面我们没有谈论, 但是什么是,是的,说一个未知的卡夫卡的方面 仍然来自图画,这就是他的幽默感。 |
| 509 | I think the drawing, probably even more than the writings, they make clear that Kafka was very much inclined to the humorous, to the carnivalous, to the grotesque. | 我认为绘画,甚至可能比写作更明确,卡夫卡非常倾向于幽默,狂欢,怪诞. |
| 510 | So there's a lot of smiling in these drawings. | 因此这些图画中有很多微笑. |
| 511 | I think the examples we have seen, I think they already show that. | 我认为我们已经看到的例子,我认为它们已经表明了这一点。 |
| 512 | I could give you much, many more, although you find it in the book, other examples of this very strong humorous element in Kafka, that in the writing, in his stories and his novels, it's not absent, but you have to really look for it. | 我可以给你很多,更多,尽管你在书里找到, 在卡夫卡这个非常强烈的幽默元素的其他例子, 在写作中, 在他的故事和小说里,它不是不存在的, 但你必须真正寻找它。 |
| 513 | It's not obvious, but I think in a drawing, it's much more obvious. | 这并不明显,但我想在画画中,它更明显. |
| 514 | You see it, it's part of a Kafka that we, I think, didn't really know that it's probably even the, I mean, funny is probably the wrong word, but it's also, of course, a type of humor where you do not really laugh. | 你看,这是卡夫卡的一部分, 我认为,我们真的不知道 它可能甚至,我的意思是, 滑稽可能是错误的词, 但是,当然,它也是一种幽默 在那里你不真正笑。 |
| 515 | You're more, you can also probably be even shocked. | 你更厉害,你可能甚至会震惊 |
| 516 | And it's more like the grotesque and the carnivalesque, in the sense of Kubin or Bachtin or this type of comic that you find in these drawings. | 更像是杂剧和嘉年华, 在库宾或巴赫丁的意义上, 或这种类型的漫画 你发现在这些图画。 |
| 517 | And if you then go back to the writing, I think you see even better that this is also part of the writing. | 如果你再回到写作中, 我认为你更清楚地看到这也是写作的一部分。 |
| 518 | So just to give one example of this probably maybe neglected part of Kafka. | 所以,只要举一个例子, 这可能忽略了卡夫卡的一部分。 |
| 519 | Thank you. | 谢谢 |
| 520 | It's really terrific. | 这真的很棒。 |
| 521 | It's such a better option than the tragic or existentialist Kafka, so much truer and brings you much closer to, I think, what's really going on in stories, even like in the penal colony, in the straff colony, which is horrific, | 比起悲惨的或生存的卡夫卡 更真实 更能让你接近 故事的真实内容 |
| 522 | tale of torture, and is also paradoxically and somewhat shamefully, utterly shamefully funny. | 酷刑的故事,也是自相矛盾的,有些可耻的,完全可耻的搞笑。 |
| 523 | I think if there's no further questions, we can thank you, Andreas, for this enormous job of work, for a revelation that only comes about once every century, really, for a world artist like Kafka. | 我想如果没有更多的问题,我们可以感谢你,安德里亚斯, 做这个巨大的工作, 是一个每个世纪都只有一次的启示, 对于一个像卡夫卡这样的世界艺术家。 |
| 524 | I hope that there's a lot of readers and this gets a lot of airplay. | 我希望有很多读者,这能得到很多的空中播放。 |
| 525 | Thank you so much. | 非常感谢 |
| 526 | Yeah, thank you. | 谢谢 |
| 527 | Thank you, Andreas. | 谢谢你,安德里亚斯。 |
| 528 | You know, congratulations on the book and just for even the tenacity to track all this down and to stick with it and to make it happen. | 要知道,恭喜这本书, 哪怕是坚韧不拔地 追踪这一切,坚持下去,让它实现。 |
| 529 | And thank you for contributing to worldwide knowledge really of something that nobody else really knew about. | 感谢你们为世界知识所做的贡献, 这些知识是别人不知道的。 |
| 530 | So most fascinating. | 这么迷人。 |
| 531 | And thank you, Paul, for hosting and for being a great discussant and even knowing the right questions to ask is very important. | 谢谢你,保罗, 主办和作为一个伟大的讨论者 甚至知道正确的问题 是非常重要的。 |
| 532 | Thank you, everybody. | 谢谢各位 |
| 533 | Thank you again, Paul. | 再次感谢你,保罗。 |
| 534 | Thank you, Andreas. | 谢谢你,安德里亚斯。 |
| 535 | Thank you, Yale University Press for a fantastic talk. | 谢谢你 耶鲁大学出版社的精彩演讲 |
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