伊朗五百年
字幕摘录
| 时间 | 英文 | 中文 |
|---|---|---|
| 0:04 | Welcome everybody to our talk today on modern Iran, let me just take a couple minutes to introduce our speakers today, as well as to welcome everybody. | 欢迎大家参加我们今天关于现代伊朗问题的发言,请允许我用几分钟时间介绍我们今天的发言者,以及欢迎大家。 |
| 0:16 | Thank you for joining us and thank you for your patience as well for joining us. | 感谢大家加入我们,感谢大家的耐心和加入我们的行列。 |
| 0:20 | If you're joining us from China. | 如果你从中国加入我们 |
| 0:21 | Thank you for spending your evening here with us if you're spending, if you're joining us from the US, very early in the morning. | 感谢您与我们共度良宵 如果你从美国来到我们这里,非常早。 |
| 0:33 | Let me first say a little bit about our center, Yale Center Beijing. | 让我首先谈谈我们的中心,耶鲁中心北京。 |
| 0:39 | We've been around for a few years now since 2014. | 自2014年起,我们相伴几年. |
| 0:43 | And our goal is to bring together the best of Yale, but also just scholars and practitioners and leaders from around the world to discuss interesting topics that span from economics to politics of course but also from art to biology to philosophy to histo | 我们的目标是把耶鲁大学的优秀人才聚集在一起, 但也只是来自世界各地的学者、实践者和领袖们, 讨论从经济学到政治, 当然还有从艺术到生物学到哲学到历史的有趣话题。 |
| 1:08 | And so we're very happy to have today's program join our roster of almost 100 events a year. | 因此,我们非常高兴今天的节目 加入我们每年将近100个活动的名册。 |
| 1:16 | And of course in the last couple years we've done many zoom talks, which the, the nice blessing in disguise of having to do everything on zoom is we're able to have quite a variety of different people join us, not just in Beijing but from all over the wor | 当然,在过去几年里,我们做了许多缩放演讲, 伪装成必须做一切缩放的美好祝福是, 我们能够有相当不同的人加入我们, 不仅在北京,而且来自世界各地。 |
| 1:32 | And so thank you all for joining us. | 感谢大家加入我们 |
展开字幕全文（440 条）
| 序号 | 英文 | 中文 |
|---|---|---|
| 1 | Welcome everybody to our talk today on modern Iran, let me just take a couple minutes to introduce our speakers today, as well as to welcome everybody. | 欢迎大家参加我们今天关于现代伊朗问题的发言,请允许我用几分钟时间介绍我们今天的发言者,以及欢迎大家。 |
| 2 | Thank you for joining us and thank you for your patience as well for joining us. | 感谢大家加入我们,感谢大家的耐心和加入我们的行列。 |
| 3 | If you're joining us from China. | 如果你从中国加入我们 |
| 4 | Thank you for spending your evening here with us if you're spending, if you're joining us from the US, very early in the morning. | 感谢您与我们共度良宵 如果你从美国来到我们这里,非常早。 |
| 5 | Let me first say a little bit about our center, Yale Center Beijing. | 让我首先谈谈我们的中心,耶鲁中心北京。 |
| 6 | We've been around for a few years now since 2014. | 自2014年起,我们相伴几年. |
| 7 | And our goal is to bring together the best of Yale, but also just scholars and practitioners and leaders from around the world to discuss interesting topics that span from economics to politics of course but also from art to biology to philosophy to histo | 我们的目标是把耶鲁大学的优秀人才聚集在一起, 但也只是来自世界各地的学者、实践者和领袖们, 讨论从经济学到政治, 当然还有从艺术到生物学到哲学到历史的有趣话题。 |
| 8 | And so we're very happy to have today's program join our roster of almost 100 events a year. | 因此,我们非常高兴今天的节目 加入我们每年将近100个活动的名册。 |
| 9 | And of course in the last couple years we've done many zoom talks, which the, the nice blessing in disguise of having to do everything on zoom is we're able to have quite a variety of different people join us, not just in Beijing but from all over the wor | 当然,在过去几年里,我们做了许多缩放演讲, 伪装成必须做一切缩放的美好祝福是, 我们能够有相当不同的人加入我们, 不仅在北京,而且来自世界各地。 |
| 10 | And so thank you all for joining us. | 感谢大家加入我们 |
| 11 | As a quick reminder, we will have a quick talk by Professor Amina, and then a response by Professor G, and then they'll have some questions to discuss, and then we'll also open up questions to the audience and so if you have questions, | 作为快速提醒,我们将有一个快速谈话 阿米纳教授, 然后一个答复 G教授, 然后,他们会有一些问题 讨论,然后,我们也会向观众开放问题 所以如果你有问题, |
| 12 | please feel free to leave them in the chat box below on the zoom function, and I will do my best to make sure we get to the relevant questions. | 请随意把它们放在下方的聊天箱里 放在缩放功能上 我将尽力确保我们能解答相关问题 |
| 13 | So, again, thank you for joining us, and let me introduce our two speakers today. | 因此,再次感谢你加入我们,让我介绍我们今天的两位发言者。 |
| 14 | So Professor of us I'm not as William Graham summer professor emeritus of history at Yale, he received his BA from Toronto University and his doctorate of philosophy from the | 因此,我们教授 我不是威廉·格雷厄姆 夏日教授荣誉 历史在耶鲁, 他得到了他的学士 从多伦多大学 从哲学博士 |
| 15 | at the University of Oxford, and he's taught at Yale University, until very his very recent retirement in 2021. | 在牛津大学,他在耶鲁大学任教,直到他最近于2021年退休. |
| 16 | He is of course a prolific author and editor was written about the early modern and modern history of Iran, the Middle East, the Muslim world and the Persian | 当然,他是一个丰富的作者和编辑 写了伊朗、中东、穆斯林世界和波斯的早期现代历史 |
| 17 | His books and articles are very numerous, such that I will not name them all here today. | 他的书和文章很多,所以我今天不会把这些都点到这里。 |
| 18 | But I'm sure you guys are familiar. | 但我肯定你们很熟悉 |
| 19 | He served as editor in chief of Iranian studies as well as the Journal of the Association for Iranian studies as well. | 他还担任伊朗研究主任和伊朗研究协会杂志编辑。 |
| 20 | He's been a recipient of many grants, and is the Carnegie scholar of Islamic studies recipient of the Mellon Sawyer grant. | 他是许多赠款的获得者,也是梅隆·索伊尔赠款伊斯兰研究的卡内基学者. |
| 21 | The Bahari visiting fellow in the Persian art of books at Baldwin University Library at Oxford, the Christian fellow also at Oxford. | 牛津鲍德温大学图书馆的波斯图书艺术访问学者,也是牛津大学的基督徒。 |
| 22 | So, he's worn many hats done many things at Yale he served as the director of the custom dining project as well as chair of the Council on East Middle East studies, and the director of the Yale program in Iranian studies at the Yale McMillan Center. | 所以,他戴了许多帽子 在耶鲁做了很多事情 他担任了定制餐饮项目的主任 和关于中东研究的理事会主席, 耶鲁大学在耶鲁麦克米兰中心的伊朗研究计划主任。 |
| 23 | And he remains an active author and editor. | 他仍然是一位活跃的作者和编辑. |
| 24 | He has multiple books coming out this year alone, as well as several more plan for 2023 and into the future. | 他今年单独出版多本书,还有2023年及以后的几个计划. |
| 25 | And I suspect that after this talk he may have even more ideas on what else to write about. | 我怀疑,这次谈话之后 他可能会有更多的想法 关于什么可以写。 |
| 26 | Professor I'm not book. | 教授,我不是书 |
| 27 | This your modern Iran has been translated into Chinese and is recently published. | 这是你现代伊朗的中文译本,最近出版. |
| 28 | And of course, we want to thank of course Duke Media Group, who is publishing the book in Chinese, and that book has been translated by Professor | 当然,我们想当然感谢杜克传媒集团,他正在用中文出版这本书,这本书已经由教授翻译 |
| 29 | who is joining us today as well. | 他们今天也加入我们。 |
| 30 | He is currently professor of world history at China Southwest University, and the director of the Center for Iranian studies at Southwest University of China. | 现任中国西南大学世界历史教授,中国西南大学伊朗研究中心主任. |
| 31 | He received his BA from John C. Normal University, his master's in the history of the Middle East from Southwest University of China, and his PhD in history from Northwestern University of China. | 曾获约翰·C·Normal大学学士学位,中国西南大学中东史硕士学位,中国西北大学历史博士学位. |
| 32 | He has been a visiting scholar at the University of Toronto, from 2004 2005, as well as a senior visiting scholar at the University of Illinois. | 从2004年到2005年他一直是多伦多大学的访问学者,也是伊利诺伊大学的高级访问学者. |
| 33 | He's the author of five books, which he was very happily showing a professor I'm not as you guys were all joining us | 他是五本书的作者, 他非常快乐地向一位教授展示 我并不是像你们一样加入我们 |
| 34 | today. | 今时. |
| 35 | And so, very happy to have both of you join us thank you for joining us. | 所以,很高兴你们能加入我们 感谢你们加入我们 |
| 36 | And thank you the audience as well. | 也谢谢你的观众 |
| 37 | I will turn it over to Professor I'm not for some remarks, and then I will then turn it over to Professor G after that for some response. | 我将把它交给教授,我不想说一些话,然后我再把它交给G教授,请回答。 |
| 38 | Thank you very much, Devin and Professor G for this opportunity. | 非常感谢,德文和G教授给我这个机会. |
| 39 | I'm delighted. | 我很高兴。 |
| 40 | There is, I think, no better word for you to see that the Chinese edition the Chinese translation of this book. | 我认为,没有任何更好的词可以让你看到这本书的中文译本。 |
| 41 | Thanks to the labor, and then sure hard work of Professor G was made available I presume it came out this month in July. | 多亏了这些劳动力 G教授的辛勤工作 才得以完成 我想这个月是7月出来的 |
| 42 | So I'm very eager to have a copy which hasn't yet reached me, but I very much hope that the publisher through Yale Press, which is the publisher of this book is an English original would be able to send me a copy so I can very proudly show it to some of m | 因此,我非常渴望有一份尚未拿到的拷贝,但我非常希望,通过耶鲁出版社出版的出版社,作为这本书的出版商,是英文的原创,能够寄给我一份拷贝,以便我能够非常自豪地把它展示给我的一些读者。 |
| 43 | colleagues, and also people who are interested in China Iran world. | 同事,还有对中国伊朗世界感兴趣的人. |
| 44 | I leave much of the discussion about this book to our conversation with Professor G, which I'm also delighted, because normally in the course of conversations such as this is much more to the point. | 我将关于这本书的大部分讨论留给了我们与G教授的对话,我也很高兴,因为通常在谈话过程中,像这样的谈话更切合重点. |
| 45 | Issues can be brought out, rather than me as a, you know, talking here particularly when you have a zoom presentation, but I probably should say something about the structure of the book and its style, and probably a few words about why I decided to write | 问题可以提出来,而不是我作为一个,你知道的,在这里说话,特别是当你有一个缩放的演示,但我也许应该说一些关于这本书的结构及其风格的话,也许应该说几句话关于我为什么决定写这本书. |
| 46 | Before we would get into the actual substantive issues of what this book is all about. | 在我们开始讨论这本书的实质性问题之前。 |
| 47 | It is, as it been said by, by, by a number of reviewers of this book in English language. | 正如一些英文的本书评论员所说。 |
| 48 | So, it may appear that it's a kind of a conventional long term coverage of 500 years of Iranian history. | 因此,它可能看起来是一种传统的 长期覆盖500年的伊朗历史。 |
| 49 | That is 1500 really 1501. | 总共是1500个 |
| 50 | The beginning of the Safavid Empire, all the way up to more or less the present time. | 萨法维德帝国的开始,一直延续到现在。 |
| 51 | That is around the year 2000 or 2010, probably as the terminating the first decade of the Iranian Revolution, and a little bit behind beyond that. | 这大概是2000年或2010年,可能是伊朗革命第一个十年的结束,还有一点落后。 |
| 52 | But in reality it's something different. | 但实际上,这是不同的东西。 |
| 53 | It's not purely a history of dynasties and wars and revolutions, although they are quite important. | 它并非纯粹是王朝和战争与革命的历史,尽管它们相当重要. |
| 54 | Like any other history of national history of a country with long ancient roots, such as China. | 如中国等具有悠久古籍的国家的民族历史任何其他历史. |
| 55 | This kind of political developments are quite important as I pointed out in my introduction in determining the nature and determining the structure of developments and changes in all other areas. | 正如我在导言中指出的,这种政治发展在确定所有其他领域的发展和变化的性质和结构方面非常重要。 |
| 56 | But perhaps we can talk about that slightly more later on. | 但也许我们可以稍后再谈这个问题。 |
| 57 | As far as the structure of the book is concerned, it consists of four parts. | 就书的结构而言,由四部分组成. |
| 58 | The first two parts covers from the 16th century to the end of the 19th century and beginning of the 20th century. | 前两部分涵盖16世纪至19世纪末和20世纪初. |
| 59 | And the parts three early part of the 20th century to the revolution of 1979 and part four actually covers the development of that resulted in the revolution of 1979. | 而20世纪早期到1979年革命的第三部分和第四部分实际上涵盖了1979年革命的结果的发展. |
| 60 | And of course the post revolutionary time and the creation of the Islamic Republic. | 当然还有革命后的时代和伊斯兰共和国的建立. |
| 61 | As you can, as I hope you would be able to, if you decided to study this book, you can see that this is in part something that developed out of my own teaching for a very long time at Yale. | 如你所愿,我希望你能够, 如果你决定研究这本书, 你可以看到,这部分 是从我在耶鲁大学的 长期教学中发展出来的。 |
| 62 | I taught history of modern Middle East. | 我教过现代中东的历史. |
| 63 | I also taught history of early modern Middle East that is from the time that I've just pointed out from 16th, 17th century onwards. | 我也教过早期现代中东的历史,即从我刚刚指出的16,17世纪以后的时代. |
| 64 | Both the Ottoman Empire, Iran and to some extent, Mughal India. | 无论是奥斯曼帝国,伊朗,还是在某种程度上莫卧儿印度. |
| 65 | So I tried to actually place this study within this broader picture of regional empires that emerged in the course of the early modern and modern times and the relationship between those empires and Iran proper. | 因此,我试图把这个研究 放在这个更广的画面中, 描述在现代和现代早期 出现的地区帝国 以及这些帝国和伊朗本土之间的关系。 |
| 66 | Also, from the turn of the 19th century more or less onwards, Iran also experienced the presence of two great powers as its neighbors. | 另外,从19世纪或多或少的转折开始,伊朗也经历了作为邻国的两个大国的存在. |
| 67 | The Russian Imperial Russia and its northern frontiers, and the British colonial India in its south eastern and southern borders, that is the Persian Gulf, and what is today, Pakistan and Afghanistan. | 俄罗斯帝国俄罗斯及其北部边界,以及位于其东南部和南部边界的英国殖民印度,即波斯湾,以及今天的巴基斯坦和阿富汗。 |
| 68 | And this was quite a new experience in the long history of Iran, as indeed it was for the history of China around the same time. | 这在伊朗的漫长历史中是一个相当新的经历, 就像对中国的历史上一样。 |
| 69 | And I cannot stop drawing parallels in many respects, in the way that Iran, in the course of its modern experience, particularly its encounters with the West, had some similarities to China. | 我无法停止在许多方面画平行,伊朗在现代经验中,特别是在与西方的交往中,与中国有一些相似之处. |
| 70 | And I became more convinced of that when I did actually study history of modern China, to some extent, for the purpose of trying to structure my own book, including the work as I, although I didn't mention it in my, in my introduction. | 我更相信,当我确实研究了现代中国的历史时, 在某种程度上, 是为了试图整理我自己的书, 包括我的作品, 尽管我在我的介绍中没有提到它。 |
| 71 | I was very impressed and learned a great deal from my colleague, late colleague, Professor Jonathan Spence, who probably was one of the greatest China specialists at the time in the world, and my colleague at Yale, who wrote this very famous book about | 我对我的同事、已故同事乔纳森·斯彭斯教授和耶鲁的同事印象深刻,学到了很多东西,他可能是当时世界上最伟大的中国专家之一。 |
| 72 | Chinese modern, early modern and modern history, and more or less you can see the same kind of a format that it worked very nicely for my book as well. | 中国的现代,早期的现代和现代的历史, 或多或少,你可以看到同样的格式, 它对我书也非常有效。 |
| 73 | I say it's not a conventional narrative, my book, because it does not limit itself purely to political events, to the rise and fall of the dynasties, to major wars and revolutions, although they do occupy a large part of my book. | 我说这不是一个常规的叙事,我的书,因为它不纯粹局限于政治事件,王朝的兴衰,重大战争和革命,虽然它们确实占据了我的书的一大部分. |
| 74 | But also try to look at the socioeconomic trends in the country over this long period of time, questions of trade, agriculture, environment, but also at the same time at political and religious trends. | 但同时也要努力审视这段漫长时期国家的社会经济趋势,贸易,农业,环境问题,同时也要审视政治和宗教趋势. |
| 75 | I'm sorry, cultural and religious trends. | 对不起,文化和宗教趋势。 |
| 76 | So you would see a fair amount written about development of poetry, cinema in the 20th century. | 所以,你会看到一个相当数量 写关于20世纪诗歌,电影的发展。 |
| 77 | Development of most significantly Shi'ism as the official creed, official religion of Iran, why and how it became part and parcel of Iranian identity over a long period of five centuries. | 将什叶派发展成为伊朗官方信仰、官方宗教, |
| 78 | So that's also, as it was said, and I was always delighted to hear that from people who reviewed this book that it is something more comprehensive than just a political history. | 因此,正如人们所言,我一直很高兴地从审查这本书的人那里听到,这本书比一个政治历史更全面。 |
| 79 | And more so, which was a huge challenge to the author myself, is the fact that I don't mention this trends, whether political or military or commercial or cultural or religious, I don't mention them just for the sake of including them into my narrative. | 更重要的是,这对作者本人来说是一个巨大的挑战,就是我不提这个趋势,无论是政治的,军事的,商业的,文化的,还是宗教的,我之所以提到这些趋势,并不是仅仅为了把它们纳入我的叙述. |
| 80 | But as a matter of fact, I hope that I have been able to demonstrate some kind of a very profound functional interaction. | 但事实上,我希望我能够表现出某种非常深刻的功能互动. |
| 81 | And there is a reason for discussion of this poet or that movie, or talking about the major religious or philosophical trend of the period, all of them do play a part in trying to answer the major question or one of the major questions in the book. | 而讨论这个诗人或那部电影,或谈论这个时期的主要宗教或哲学趋势,是有原因的,他们都确实在试图回答书中的主要的问题或一个主要的问题中发挥作用. |
| 82 | And that's the issue of the experience of modernity, how Iran, as an ancient culture that survived on the map of the world for a very long time, very few countries in the world, China included, that has always been there. | 而这就是现代经验的问题,伊朗作为一个古代文化,在世界地图上生存了很长一段时间,世界上很少国家,包括中国,一直存在. |
| 83 | It's not the byproduct of changes in modern history, but it's something that has always been there, either under the name of Persia or Iran, try to show that this experience was a very complex one, very problematic in many respects. | 这不是现代历史变化的副产品,而是一直存在的东西,无论是以波斯还是伊朗的名义,都试图表明这种经历是非常复杂的,在许多方面都是很成问题的. |
| 84 | That the Iranian culture on the one hand remained very eager in order to modernize itself, in order to, there's always this urge for learning from outside world, and this is both pre-modern and modern. | 一方面,伊朗文化仍然非常热衷于自我现代化,以便, 总是有这种向外部世界学习的冲动, 而这既是前现代的,也是现代的。 |
| 85 | And yet at the same time, there is an element of resistance against domination, against political domination, against economic domination, against even cultural domination. | 然而,与此同时,存在着抵制统治、政治统治、经济统治、甚至文化统治的因素。 |
| 86 | And it was not always very successful, I tend to agree with that, that this kind of an interaction with the Western world in particular, remained a very problematic one, up to the present. | 我倾向于同意,它并不总是非常成功的, 特别是这种与西方世界的互动, 一直到现在,仍然是个非常问题。 |
| 87 | So in effect, one can see some of the features of contemporary Iran that we witness today as many headlines in the news, in a sense should be seen in this longer duray, this longer process of time, that how Iran has been exposed to certain positive as wel | 因此,实际上,人们可以看到现代伊朗的一些特征,我们今天看到的新闻头条新闻,从某种意义上说,应该从这个更长的杜雷,这个更长的时间过程来看,伊朗是如何受到某些积极和消极的影响的。 |
| 88 | outcomes of this give and take with the outside world, particularly with the Western world in our time. | 与外界,特别是我们时代的西方世界一道,取得这些结果。 |
| 89 | So that being said, I think I can only add that probably in terms of the style and approach. | 因此,我认为我只能从风格和方式上补充这一点。 |
| 90 | I tried to present this book in such a way that it would be accessible, not only for the scholars, and I'm delighted to see that it has been now adopted for many college courses in the United States or in the UK, also probably Canada. | 我试图以这样的方式介绍这本书,它不仅可以让学者查阅,我很高兴看到它现在已经被美国或英国的许多大学课程所采用,大概还有加拿大. |
| 91 | Courses that either include Iran as part of their history or courses that are exclusively are about Iran. | 课程要么包括伊朗作为其历史的一部分,要么只涉及伊朗。 |
| 92 | So that's also very rewarding to see that the colleagues have accepted this as a important tool for teaching, but also accessible to the general public. | 因此,看到同事接受这个作为重要的教学工具,但也为大众所利用,这也是非常有益的. |
| 93 | Not probably to the elementary level, but to the educated general public that are interested in issues of culture, issues of politics, contemporary relations, and of course history. | 可能不是在小学,而是在对文化、政治、当代关系以及当然历史等问题感兴趣的受过教育的普通大众中。 |
| 94 | So, and I hope that I have succeeded in doing so. | 因此,我希望我成功地做到了这一点。 |
| 95 | Part of this actually goes to Professor G to tell me whether that was successful from the perspective of a translator to try to access much of the material in this book. | 部分内容实际上要交给G教授来告诉我,从翻译家的角度来看,这是否成功,试图访问这本书中的大部分材料. |
| 96 | So I'm delighted to hear that also the way that I tried not to muddle up to my narrative with too many footnotes in the book. | 因此,我很高兴听到,同样,我试图避免在书中用太多的脚注来混淆我的叙述。 |
| 97 | This book could have easily had a thousand footnotes or more. | 这本书很容易有一千个或更多的脚注。 |
| 98 | I tried to avoid doing that because I thought from very early stages that if I do so, something more voluminous than what it is right now would come out, and also it may not be necessarily of great advantage to the reader. | 我试图避免这样做,因为我从很早的阶段就想到,如果我这样做,将会有比现在更大的东西出来,而且可能对读者来说不一定有很大的好处。 |
| 99 | I have a section at the end of the book, which I don't know whether it's published in the Chinese edition or not, which is called Further Readings that I've tried to cover every period in the book in terms of the available secondary literature in European | 我书的结尾有一节,我不知道它是否在中文版上出版,这叫做"进一步阅读",我曾试图从欧洲语言的现有二级文献的角度来涵盖书中的每一个时期. |
| 100 | It does not include Persian. | 它不包括波斯语. |
| 101 | It does not include languages outside Europe, because it's outside my knowledge really. | 它不包括欧洲以外的语言,因为它真的超出了我的知识范围. |
| 102 | But to the extent that if anybody would like to read more about any part of this, any episode within this book, there is a possibility to go back to that Further Readings. | 但只要有人想读更多关于这本书的任何部分, 任何一集, 都有可能回到进一步阅读。 |
| 103 | This, I'm also delighted to say that it was the experience of the publisher in Turkey, which is the Turkish edition of it just came out about two months ago. | 我也高兴地说,这是土耳其出版商的经验, 也就是两个月前刚出版的土耳其版。 |
| 104 | Here it is. | 在这里。 |
| 105 | And it's very, according to friends whose modern Turkish are better than mine, are telling me that it's a good translation, and I'm delighted to see that now with the Chinese, I'm pretty sure it's going to be the same experience. | 而且,根据现代土耳其语比我好的朋友的说法,它非常的告诉我,它是一个很好的翻译,我很高兴看到现在和中国人在一起,我非常肯定它将会是同样的经历. |
| 106 | I would probably should stop here and then obviously if there are more issues in the course of our conversation, I would be delighted to answer both by Professor G, by Devin himself, or by our audience, obviously. | 我也许应该停下来,然后很显然,如果我们在谈话过程中还有更多的问题,我很乐意回答G教授、Devin教授本人或我们的听众的问题。 |
| 107 | Before Professor G would, I would very much be interested to see what was his experience with the actual translation and something about the process as well. | 在G教授发言之前,我非常想知道他在实际翻译方面的经验以及这一过程的一些情况。 |
| 108 | It would be, I think, is beneficial also to the audience. | 我认为,这对观众也会有好处。 |
| 109 | Thank you. | 谢谢 |
| 110 | I'm very honored to translate this great book, because Iran is a great culture, is a great civilization. | 我很荣幸地翻译这本伟大的书,因为伊朗是一个伟大的文化,是一个伟大的文明. |
| 111 | And some Chinese scholars said, Iran is another China in the Middle East, and China is another Iran in the East Asian. | 而一些中国学者说,伊朗是中东的另一个中国,中国是东亚的另一个伊朗. |
| 112 | And because so many Chinese scholars understand Iran deeply, lovely, and respectively, and because two cultures in history have very friendly relationships, | 因为如此多的中国学者对伊朗有深刻的,可爱的和分别的理解,也因为历史上两种文化有着非常友好的关系, |
| 113 | they actually exchange many, many cultures, and Iranian culture accepts, receives many Chinese things, and at the same time, Iranian culture still influences Chinese ancient history. | 他们实际上交换了许多,许多文化,伊朗文化接受,接受了许多中国事物,同时,伊朗文化仍然影响着中国古代历史. |
| 114 | And today, even in Tibet, and Tibet, it's, it's still influenced by Iranian religions. | 而今天,甚至在西藏,西藏,它仍然受到伊朗宗教的影响. |
| 115 | And in the, in Chinese, mostly, and many Chinese mostly still use Farsi, Persian languages. | 而在其中,在汉语中,大多数,很多汉语大多仍然使用波斯语,波斯语. |
| 116 | And so, Chinese scholars felt Iran is my cousin, is my, is a Chinese cousin, and something like this. | 所以,中国学者认为伊朗是我的表弟,是我的,是中国的表弟,类似的东西。 |
| 117 | So, my question is, do you think to something, Iran is something like China? | 所以,我的问题是,你觉得伊朗像中国吗? |
| 118 | That's my question. | 这是我的问题。 |
| 119 | Okay, would you like me to answer it now? | 好吧,你要我现在就回答吗? |
| 120 | Yeah. | 对 |
| 121 | Okay, good. | 好吧,不错。 |
| 122 | Well, I would have expected this question, and I would be delighted to answer that my answer is very positive. | 我本想问这个问题的,我很乐意回答,我的回答非常肯定。 |
| 123 | Given the fact that if we look at classical times, actually ancient and classical times, to the knowledge that, to the extent that my knowledge would allow me to, to explore that, China is probably the most referred to cultures of ancient and early modern | 鉴于如果我们看看古典时代,实际上古代和古典时代, 了解到只要我的知识允许我探索, 中国可能是波斯古代和早期现代文化中最被指的 |
| 124 | literature, in Persian history accounts, it was always looked upon as this ultimate model of a balanced culture. | 文学,在波斯历史的叙述中,它一直被视作一种平衡文化的最终模式. |
| 125 | And that was always appreciated greatly in terms of its art, in particular, there's a much reference to Chinese paintings, although the tradition that Iranian developed and taught its Chinese was very imaginative, it was very much their own, but their ele | 而这一点在其艺术方面始终受到极大的赞赏,特别是,对中国绘画的参考很多,虽然伊朗人发展和教授其中文的传统非常有想象力,但是这在很大程度上是他们自己的,但是他们来自中国的元素在其中却非常存在. |
| 126 | And this is of course no surprise, because the relations between China and Iran as two entities, two empires and two countries, at least goes back 2,200, 2,300 years. | 这当然也不奇怪,因为中国和伊朗作为两个实体,两个帝国和两个国家的关系,至少可以追溯到2200,2300年. |
| 127 | That is from the, from the Achaemenid Empire, when the Persian Empire expanded to Central Asia, northern Indian subcontinent, and to what is today Xinjiang, it became exposed very much to the much older culture of China. | 这是从阿查梅尼德帝国,波斯帝国扩张到中亚,印度北部次大陆,到今天的新疆,它非常暴露于中国更古老的文化. |
| 128 | And from the very beginning, it was appreciated that this is a unique interaction. | 从一开始,人们就认识到这是一种独特的互动。 |
| 129 | And then it of course, if you look all the way to perhaps 15th century, when still the trade between these two major sources of power was in practice, that is by the Timurid era in around 15th century. | 当然,如果你想着也许15世纪, 这两大权力来源之间的贸易 仍在实际中,也就是在15世纪左右的蒂穆里德时代。 |
| 130 | Particularly in eastern parts of Iran, you can see that this interaction continues. | 特别是在伊朗东部,你可以看到这种互动仍在继续。 |
| 131 | One only needs to look at the major entries in, for instance, Encyclopedia Iranica, which is a major publication about the Iranian world and the, all the cultures that are | 只需看看伊朗百科全书等主要条目, |
| 132 | in, it interacted with over a very long period of time. | 在一个很长的时间里 它相互影响 |
| 133 | There is a series of articles called Sino-Iranica in Encyclopedia Iranica, probably altogether more than 50 pages of very small print. | 在"伊朗百科全书"(Encyclopedia Iranica)中有一系列名为"中伊朗"(Sino-Iranica)的文章,可能总共有50多页的非常小的印刷品. |
| 134 | And it basically reviews all these aspects that Professor Ji pointed out in terms of trade, in terms of language, in terms of various institutions of the state, in terms of the way that Iranians try to grasp the kind of sometimes imaginary China, sometime | 它基本上回顾了池教授指出的所有这些方面,在贸易方面,语言方面,在国家机构方面,在伊朗人试图把握有时想象的中国,有时是真正的中国的方式方面. |
| 135 | Iran, in the course of the late antiquity was the conduit through which Christianity reached northern China. | 伊朗,在后古时期是基督教传入中国北方的通道. |
| 136 | The Nestorian Church, which is the indigenous Iranian church, Christian Iranian Church of western Iran, through missionaries moved to northern China. | 内斯托里安教堂(英語:Nestorian Church)是伊朗本土的教堂,伊朗西部的基督教伊朗教会,通过传教士迁往中国北部. |
| 137 | There were communities of Iranians both in North China and in South China that survived for quite a long time, and also were conduits of this interaction between the two, between the two empires. | 华北和华南地区都有伊朗人社区,他们生存了相当长的时间,也是两个帝国之间这种互动的渠道。 |
| 138 | Iran was also exposed at some stage in its long history, that is in the course of the 13th and 14th centuries, to Mongol invasion the same way that China was also taken over by the Mongol Empire of Changi Khan and its descendants. | 伊朗在其悠久历史的某个阶段,即13世纪和14世纪的某个时期,也暴露在蒙古人的入侵中,就像昌吉汗的蒙古帝国及其后裔也占领中国一样. |
| 139 | And there is a period in history, in late medieval history, that is basically from 14th to 15th centuries, and known as the, sometimes referred to as Pax Mongolica, that basically means this whole region comes under moral s. | 历史上有一个时期,在中世纪后期, 基本上从14世纪到15世纪, 被称为,有时被称为大同, 基本上意味着整个地区 都属于道德范畴。 |
| 140 | There was a lot of competition within this system, but nevertheless Mongol Chinese Empire and the Iranian Irkhanid Empire had developed close relationships as a very important period for both empires, particularly for Iran. | 这一体系内部竞争激烈,但尽管如此,蒙古中华帝国和伊朗伊克汗尼德帝国发展了密切的关系,是两个帝国,尤其是伊朗的非常重要的时期. |
| 141 | That being said, also in modern times, we can see reflections of Chinese presence in the Iranian world for no other reason that after 1948, first of all, both China and Iran experienced at the same time a constitutional revolution at the turn of the 20th | 话虽如此,同样在现代,我们也能看到中国在伊朗世界存在的反映,没有任何其他原因,那就是1948年后,首先,中国和伊朗在20世纪之交同时经历了一场宪法革命. |
| 142 | It's among the very few countries, at least in Eurasia, that experienced two revolutions in the course of the 20th century. | 它是极少数国家之一,至少在欧亚国家,在20世纪经历了两次革命. |
| 143 | Iran had a constitutional revolution in around 1906 to 1911, China's, I believe it was 1912. | 1906年至1911年左右,伊朗发生了宪法革命,中国,我认为是1912年. |
| 144 | And of course, a Russian Empire that also experienced the revolution of 1905 and then the revolution of 1917, and both of them more or less went through the same convulsive course of history in this time period, including Iran, which covers, which my book | 当然,一个俄罗斯帝国也经历了1905年的革命,然后经历了1917年的革命,他们两人在这个时期都多少经历了同样的震撼历史过程,包括伊朗,它涵盖了,我的书在关于宪法革命的完整篇章中涵盖了这个问题. |
| 145 | But both of them, as a result of this experience of the revolution, went through the same process of becoming more critical and even sometimes hostile towards the Western world because of their experiences. | 但是由于这段革命的经历,他们两人都经历了同样的过程,由于自己的经历,对西方世界更加批评,甚至有时更加敌视. |
| 146 | And therefore it's not a surprise to see that Iranians in the 20th century, in 20th century, in my own time, 1960s, 1970s when I was in the college, you could see that there was a great degree of enthusiasm towards Maoist China, Maoist revolution. | 因此,看到20世纪的伊朗人,在20世纪的伊朗人,在我本人的时代,在20世纪60年代,70年代我在大学时,你们可以看到对毛主义中国,毛主义革命的热情是很高的,这并不奇怪. |
| 147 | And you could see that the Maoist trends in the 1960s and 70s were fairly significant in Iran. | 你们可以看到,1960年代和70年代的毛派趋势在伊朗相当显著。 |
| 148 | Sometimes even some of these revolutionaries ended up in China, and a couple of them actually wrote their experiences of time spent in China in this time period. | 有时甚至有些革命者最后来到了中国,其中的几个人实际上写下了他们在这个时期在中国度过的时间的经历. |
| 149 | And then this, after the revolution of 1979, increasingly, as we can see in today, today's relations between the two countries has consolidated over a period of time. | 然后,在1979年的革命之后,正如我们今天所看到的那样,今天两国的关系在一段时间内日益巩固. |
| 150 | As a matter of fact, it's consolidated since the Shah's time, this is the Pahlavi era, that first Iran developed, I think it was the second country, if I'm not wrong, I'm not a Chinese specialist, but I think the second or one of the very early countries | 事实上,它自沙阿时代以来就已经巩固了,这是帕赫拉维时代,第一个伊朗发展起来的,我认为它是第二个国家,如果我没有错,我不是中国专家,但是我认为是尼克松执政期间美国与中国开放关系之后的第二个或一个早期国家. |
| 151 | Iran was one of the earliest countries that took the initiative to develop relations with communist China, and that continued almost with no interruption, even with the revolution of 1979 up to the present. | 伊朗是最早主动发展与共产主义中国关系的国家之一,并且几乎不间断地继续发展,即使1979年革命至今. |
| 152 | I mean, just as I showed, I tell you, I was exposed to this kind of an experience because my brother, who is a well known architect in Iran, is the one who actually designed the Iranian embassy in Beijing. | 我的意思是,正如我所展示的,我告诉你, 我被暴露在这样的经历中, 因为我的兄弟,他是伊朗的一位著名建筑师, 是真正设计伊朗驻北京大使馆的人。 |
| 153 | That is today as I understand it is somewhere of a tourist attraction because of its architecture that he tried to develop a Persian architecture for the Beijing embassy. | 据我所知,今天是旅游景点的某个地方,因为他的建筑试图为北京大使馆开发波斯建筑。 |
| 154 | And it is still, of course, the center for the interaction between the two diplomatic center for the interaction between the two countries. | 当然,它仍然是两国互动的外交中心。 |
| 155 | That being said, it seems to me, and that's my last point. | 这么说,在我看来,这是我最后的观点。 |
| 156 | It seems to me that today we are witnessing the emergence, for better or for worse, we are seeing the emergence of a new political sphere, a new political block that is emerging in this Eurasian world with probably the major partners of it being China. | 在我看来,今天我们正目睹一个新政治领域的出现,不管好坏,我们正看到一个新的政治领域,这个新的政治障碍正在欧亚世界中出现,它的主要伙伴可能是中国。 |
| 157 | Also, Russia, and Iran as a major partner in this process that covers if you look at it geopolitically from the Persian Gulf, all the way into the Black Sea, and from the other side all the way stretching into the pacifics and into the heart of | 此外,俄罗斯和伊朗是这一进程的主要伙伴,如果从波斯湾从地缘政治角度看待它,从黑海一直进入,从另一边一直延伸到太平洋,并进入中心地带。 |
| 158 | what generally was considered as the oriental China proper. | 一般认为是东方中国本身。 |
| 159 | So this is a vast area with vast resources, and somewhat because of its posture, unfortunately, as being kind of in trouble with, with the Western world seems to have developed some kind of a deeper | 因此,这是一个广阔的地区, 拥有丰富的资源, 在某种程度上,由于它的姿态, 不幸的是, 有点麻烦, |
| 160 | affiliation within this block of countries, and perhaps it's, to certain respect, it's an inevitable process. | 也许从某种意义上来说,这是不可避免的过程。 |
| 161 | You see, we are witnessing in a sense, a shift from a course of history that starts really from the early modern times from the Western explorations of the early modern times that came to dominate the eastern world, including China, and Iran and the whole | 你看,我们从某种意义上目睹了从现代早期开始的历史过程的转变。 从现代早期的西方探索开始, 西方探索开始, 统治着包括中国在内的东方世界, 以及伊朗和整个中东。 |
| 162 | Now it seems that we witness a shift in this process, and we see something new in terms of geopolitical presence in that region. | 现在,我们似乎目睹了这一进程的转变,我们看到该地区地缘政治存在方面出现了新的情况。 |
| 163 | What comes out of it remains to be seen, but from the perspective of the historian, it's an important development. | 从中得出的东西仍然有待观察,但从历史学家的角度来看,这是一个重要的发展. |
| 164 | And your answer is a very colorful lecture. | 你的回答是非常多彩的演讲。 |
| 165 | That's a very long memory about the relationship between China and Iran. | 这对中伊关系有着很长的记忆. |
| 166 | Thank you. | 谢谢 |
| 167 | And my second question is, | 我的第二个问题是, |
| 168 | it said that Iran is a bridge between the East and the West. | 它说伊朗是东西方之间的桥梁。 |
| 169 | Do you agree with it? | 你同意吗? |
| 170 | Yes, I think I started my narrative in the introductory chapter by saying that, for better or for worse, Iran geopolitically is situated in part of the world between Mediterranean world, it's not really Mediterranean at all, between the Mediterranean | 是的,我想我在开场白中首先说,无论好坏,伊朗地缘政治位于世界的地中海世界之间,完全不是地中海,地中海之间。 |
| 171 | world, and it's not either Central Asian per se, or it's Indian subcontinent world, but it allows all of these trends to emerge, and there is a kind of a crossroads, as it has often been said, Iran is a crossroads of civilizations. | 世界,它既不是中亚本身,也不是印度的次大陆世界, 它允许所有这些趋势出现, 有一个十字路口, 正如人们常说的,伊朗是文明的十字路口。 |
| 172 | It doesn't mean always this is something good, but because it was always exposed, if you look at the number of intrusions in terms of military takeover and invasion of the country, whether tribal invasion or modern armies, you see it has been all part and | 这并不是说这总是一件好事,而是因为它总是被暴露的,如果你从军事接管和入侵国家的角度来观察入侵的次数,无论是部落入侵还是现代军队,你就会看到它一直是其历史的一部分。 |
| 173 | So I would say so. | 所以我会这么说。 |
| 174 | On a more positive side, as I pointed out, this was a country that inevitably developed the art of adoption, and the fact that whether willingly or unwillingly it absorbed much from the outside world. | 更积极的方面是,正如我指出的那样,这个国家不可避免地发展了收养艺术,而且无论自愿还是不愿意,它从外部世界吸收了很多东西。 |
| 175 | It's one of the best examples that nothing in world history is original. | 这是世界历史上没有任何东西是原创的最好例子之一. |
| 176 | Everything comes from somewhere else. | 一切从别处来. |
| 177 | And despite all Iranian nationalism that sometimes goes, you know, rather when it goes array and imagines that something from ancient times was very original to Iran, there is plenty of stuff that has been | 尽管伊朗民族主义有时会发展, 但当它发展成阵列并想象着 从古代到伊朗的事物非常独创, |
| 178 | given take from cultures around it and from far distance. | 取自周围和遥远的文化。 |
| 179 | So, in this respect, I would say, yes, both positively and, and perhaps less positively. | 因此,在这方面,我要说,是的,既有积极的,也有也许不那么积极的。 |
| 180 | It has experienced that I just want to give you one example. | 它的经验是,我只想举一个例子。 |
| 181 | And that's the example of | 这是一个例子 |
| 182 | cinema. | 电影 |
| 183 | Iranian world, of course, became conscious and start to make movies and films ever since 1930s. | 当然,伊朗世界自1930年代以来就开始有意识地拍摄电影和电影。 |
| 184 | Almost not close to a century of filmmaking. | 几乎没有接近一个世纪的电影制作。 |
| 185 | Almost from the beginning of the cinema fascinated Iranians, but in the post-revolutionary times, nobody would have expected that this particular media medium becomes so significant as a voice of dissent in the country as a new way of artistic expression. | 几乎从电影院一开始就迷上了伊朗人,但是在革命后的时代,没有人会期望这种特定的媒体媒体会像国内的异见声音那样变得如此重要,成为新的艺术表达方式. |
| 186 | And as a way of trying to create some kind of a new realist cinema similar to that of Italy. | 作为尝试创建类似于意大利的新现实主义电影院的一种方式. |
| 187 | If you talk to many of these or listen to many of these Iranian filmmakers from 1960s to the present, you would be surprised to see how much influence of Italian cinema is there. | 如果你能和许多这些电影家交谈, 或者听这些伊朗电影从1960年代到现在的电影, 你会惊讶地看到意大利电影的影响力有多大。 |
| 188 | This is a country far away, but it learns and absorbs and try to make this something more internal and its own, its own. | 这是一个遥远的国家,但是它学习和吸收,并试图使这个东西更加内部和自己的,自己的. |
| 189 | And that's actually characteristic of today's cinema in Iran. | 这就是今天伊朗电影院的特征。 |
| 190 | That's one example. | 这是一个例子。 |
| 191 | In poetry, you can see with Arabic poetry. | 在诗歌中,用阿拉伯语诗歌可以看见. |
| 192 | I mean, as Iran became a Muslim country, Arabic became part and parcel of Iranian experience, influenced its language greatly. | 阿拉伯语成为伊朗经验的一部分, |
| 193 | Persian was written in Arabic script, but it maintained its own character. | 波斯语是用阿拉伯文字写成的,但它保持了自己的性格. |
| 194 | Iranians is one of those countries that never abandoned their own, their own language. | 伊朗人是从未放弃自己语言的国家之一。 |
| 195 | It became modern Persian and middle Persian and ancient Persian, all comes from the same root. | 它成为现代波斯语和中波斯语和古波斯语,都来源于同一根. |
| 196 | It's just continuity of the same tradition. | 这仅仅是同一传统的连续性. |
| 197 | So in that regard, it preserved something of its own, but also learned a great deal from the experience of Islam. | 因此,在这方面,它保留了自己的东西,但也从伊斯兰的经验中吸取了很大教训。 |
| 198 | It's wrong to believe that the experience of Islam was something alien. | 认为伊斯兰教的经验是异物是错误的. |
| 199 | It became over a long period of time, part and parcel of Iranian identity and experience. | 它在很长一段时间内成为伊朗特征和经验的一部分。 |
| 200 | So, but it has its own way of interpreting it that is different from its neighboring lands. | 因此,它有自己的解释方法 不同于它的邻国。 |
| 201 | That's why it is she in part because it wanted to actually accentuate this difference with other experiences of Islam without saying that which one is more advantageous to the other and never saying that. | 这就是为什么她之所以如此, 部分原因是它想在实际上强调这种区别 与伊斯兰的其他经验,而不说哪个对另一个更有利, 并且从来不说。 |
| 202 | But I'm saying that is an element of identity is buried inside the way that religion was accepted and expressed up to the present. | 但我说,这是身份的一个要素 埋藏在宗教被接受和表达到现在的方式中。 |
| 203 | Wonderful. | 真不错 |
| 204 | And for the other scholars or students can give their own questions. | 而对于其他学者或学生来说,也可以提出自己的问题. |
| 205 | Okay. | 摆 |
| 206 | Great. | 不错 |
| 207 | Thank you so much. | 非常感谢 |
| 208 | We've got a couple questions from the audience. | 观众问了几个问题 |
| 209 | I don't know this person's name because their zoom is only a bunch of numbers. | 我不知道这个人的名字 因为他们的缩放只是一堆数字 |
| 210 | But he's been waiting for a while patiently. | 但他已经耐心等待了一段时间. |
| 211 | Hi. | 顿 |
| 212 | Hi, Professor. | 嗨,教授,你好吗? |
| 213 | Can you | 你能吗? |
| 214 | can you hear me. | 你能听到我吗? |
| 215 | Yes, I do. | 是的,我会的。 |
| 216 | Oh, thank you. | 谢谢 |
| 217 | First of all, I would say thank you so much for for your speech today, and I appreciate your work, your hard work in Iran history. | 首先,我要感谢你今天的发言,我赞赏你的工作和在伊朗历史上的辛勤工作。 |
| 218 | Yes. | 对 |
| 219 | Would you like me to respond to any particular point. | 你想让我回答任何问题吗? |
| 220 | My question. | 我的问题。 |
| 221 | My question is, | 我的问题是, |
| 222 | in many people's view, or many people think, perhaps, a few people think, | 许多人认为,或者许多人认为,也许有些人认为, |
| 223 | there is a little democracy in modern Iran. | 现代伊朗有一点民主。 |
| 224 | However, I hear from. | 然而,我听到来自。 |
| 225 | However, I, from my, from what I learned, | 然而,我,从我的, 从我学到, |
| 226 | Iran also has has election, for example, the, the president of Iran is elected by the people. | 例如,伊朗总统由人民选举产生。 |
| 227 | So, | 这么说 |
| 228 | my question is, what do you think about. | 我的问题是,你在想什么? |
| 229 | Okay, thank you so much. | 好吧,非常感谢。 |
| 230 | Professor G, would you like to say to add anything or should I go ahead, which one. | G教授,你愿意说点什么,还是我应该说,哪个。 |
| 231 | Okay, well, I suppose your question sums up as what is Iran's experience with democracy. | 好吧,我想你的问题 总结一下伊朗在民主方面的经验。 |
| 232 | And how successful it has been the experience of democracy. | 民主的经验是多么成功。 |
| 233 | The answer to that the short answer it was not very successful, given that Iran, at least since the beginning of the 20th century has been struggling to create a more democratic representative model of government. | 鉴于伊朗至少自20世纪初以来,一直在努力创造一个更民主的代表性政府模式,因此对这个简短答案的答案并不十分成功。 |
| 234 | And some of these experiences for a short period of time were very successful, such as, but I would say short period of time, such as the constitutional revolution. | 而在短时期内,其中一些经验非常成功,比如,但我想说,短时期,比如宪法革命. |
| 235 | As I said, which resulted in the creation of the Iranian parliament and forging of the Iranian constitution. | 如我所说,这导致了伊朗议会的建立和伊朗宪法的制定。 |
| 236 | And for a period of time, | 在一段时间内, |
| 237 | engendering a form of democratic regime in Iran that survived really more or less up to 1921, or perhaps even 1925 for close to perhaps a decade and a half. | 在伊朗形成一种民主政权形式,这种政权在1921年或甚至1925年或多或少存活了将近15年。 |
| 238 | What the experience of the constitutional revolution of 1905 to 1911 and beyond, showed that how vulnerable this democracy could be both to domestic and to international interventions. | 1905年至1911年及其后的宪政革命的经验表明,这种民主在国内和国际干预中是多么脆弱。 |
| 239 | It goes without saying that the first world war that was fought, not in Iran, but Iran inevitably was drawn into it, as I have explained in my, in my book, | 毋庸置疑,第一次世界大战不是在伊朗,而是伊朗不可避免的卷入,正如我在书中解释的那样, |
| 240 | was a major contributor to the weakening and eventually destruction of the experience of constitutional Iran in that time period, and the intervention, completely rude and unbelievable degree of | 在此期间,宪法伊朗的经验被削弱并最终被破坏,干预、完全无礼和令人难以置信的程度。 |
| 241 | colonial expansionist intervention, both by the Russian Empire and by the British Empire in the north and in the south and Iran has to deal with this too. | 殖民扩张主义的干涉,无论是俄罗斯帝国还是大英帝国在北方还是南方的干涉,伊朗也不得不应对. |
| 242 | And that did not open a ground for a calm and suitable environment for a creation of a constitutional and the democratic regime. | 这并没有为建立宪政和民主制度创造平静和适当的环境奠定基础。 |
| 243 | The second experience was the experience of the post-second world war, after the two great powers invaded Iran, occupied Iran during the war, that is the British and the Russians, that is Soviet Union, and also the Americans as their third party of the al | 第二次经历是第二次世界大战后,两个大国入侵伊朗后,在战争期间占领伊朗,即英国和俄国,即苏联,还有美国人作为盟军的第三方掩护伊朗. |
| 244 | And after their evacuation, which is a long history, there is a chapter in my book, Iran, for a short period of time, experienced a period which I refer to as the chaotic democracy, of which the major feature of it was the struggle for gaining full contro | 他们的撤离是漫长的历史,在我的书中有一个章节,伊朗,在很短的时间内,经历了一个我称之为混乱的民主时期,其中的主要特点是争取充分控制自己的经济资源, |
| 245 | that is oil, during the period which often is referred to as oil nationalization movement, or Mossadegh movement in the 1950s, and that also unfortunately, due to the intervention by Western power was aborted, but of course in this case, you can say that | 也就是石油,这期间经常被称为石油国有化运动,或者1950年代的摩萨迪格运动,同样不幸的是,由于西方势力的干预而流产了,但当然在这种情况下,你可以说,这不仅是外部的。 |
| 246 | forces, but also internal tensions within the country contributed to the weakening of democracy, as it did in the case of the constitutional revolution earlier on. | 此外,国内的紧张局势也助长了民主的削弱,正如以前宪法革命的情况那样。 |
| 247 | And the third example is the example of the revolution of 1979, which was a revolution that came about a popular revolution, probably is one of the greatest popular revolutions in the world. | 第三个例子是1979年革命的例子,当时的革命是一场群众革命产生的,可能是世界上最伟大的群众革命之一. |
| 248 | When millions of people came to the street, it was not just the change of regime at the top, but it was something that involved Iranian people with a lot of aspirations, with a lot of expectations for a better, more democratic, more free society to emerge | 数百万人走上街头时,不仅仅是政权在高层的变迁,而是伊朗人民对于一个更美好、更民主、更自由的社会抱有许多期望,希望摆脱这种局面。 |
| 249 | But unfortunately, that experience proved to be very short lived, and soon, in matter of months, if not years, resulting to the emergence of another oppressive authoritarian regime in power, which is the Islamic Republic of today, Iran. | 但不幸的是,这种经历证明是短暂的,而且很快,在几个月甚至几年的时间里,又出现了另一个压迫性的专制政权,即今天的伊朗伊斯兰共和国。 |
| 250 | So what we would see here, I sometimes surprises myself that the period that we, that Iranians basically switched between two authoritarian oppressive regimes was less than a year. | 因此,我们在这里所看到的,我有时感到惊讶的是,我们伊朗人基本上在两个独裁压迫政权之间转换的时期不到一年。 |
| 251 | It's a few months, you know, in matter of the shots gone in 1979 and Ayatollah Khomeini arrived in 1979. | 这是几个月,你知道, 对于1979年的镜头 和阿亚图拉霍梅尼 1979年到达。 |
| 252 | It's basically this continuity of the same process. | 基本上就是同一个过程的连续性. |
| 253 | It's a huge tragedy. | 这是一个巨大的悲剧。 |
| 254 | But at the same time, if you want to look at the more, how should I say, hopeful signs is that the Iranian society has not given up. | 但与此同时,如果你想更深入地审视,我应该怎么说,希望的迹象是,伊朗社会没有放弃。 |
| 255 | We witness in Iran today, particularly with the younger generation of Iranians, that it is much more than the earlier generation, that my generation really, open to learning from the outside world to explore possibilities of reconciliation and the creatio | 我们今天在伊朗看到,特别是在年轻一代伊朗人中看到,这比早一代人还要多得多,我的这一代人确实愿意向外界学习,探索和解的可能性,为印度人民建立一个更加民主、更加开放的社会和公民权利。 |
| 256 | And for individuals, particularly for women, which has been the focus of much wrongdoing and much of oppression by the regime in today's Iran. | 对于个人来说,特别是对于妇女来说,这是当今伊朗政权许多不法行为和压迫的焦点。 |
| 257 | So the future of Iran, I sometimes say, is in the hands of the women, basically, of the newer generation and younger generation. | 因此,我有时会说,伊朗的未来掌握在妇女手中,基本上掌握在新一代和年轻一代的手中。 |
| 258 | And there's so much signs of it visible around us that we can see in the way that women express themselves. | 在我们周围可以看到很多迹象, 可以看到女性表达自己的方式。 |
| 259 | Their discontent becomes more evident in today's society. | 他们的不满在今天的社会中变得更加明显. |
| 260 | I'm not saying that this is an imminent change, but it's an important force. | 我不是说这是即将发生的改变,而是一个重要的力量. |
| 261 | Thank you. | 谢谢 |
| 262 | That's a wonderful answer. | 答得妙绝. |
| 263 | Another question. | 另一个问题。 |
| 264 | Yes, we have another question. | 是的,我们还有一个问题。 |
| 265 | You can see also some questions here on the question and answer. | 你也可以在这里看到一些关于问答的问题。 |
| 266 | I don't know whether, Devin, you would like to handle those? | 我不知道,德文,你想不想处理这些? |
| 267 | Yeah, I'm going to consolidate them all into something. | 是的,我要把它们整合成某种东西 |
| 268 | Liu Tian, you go ahead. | 刘天 你去吧 |
| 269 | I am a high school student and I'm very interested in the Iranian revolution of 1979. | 我对1979年伊朗革命很感兴趣。 |
| 270 | And based on my knowledge of Iran during that period, Iran was very developed economically by selling oil and culturally and especially like it was a very open culture to both Western ideas and even to like much more modern ideas and forms of entertainmen | 根据我在那个时期对伊朗的了解,伊朗经济非常发达,它出售石油和文化,尤其是像一种对西方思想,甚至更喜欢现代思想和娱乐形式的文化一样。 |
| 271 | But due to reasons that I could not understand, the nation suddenly turned for a religious role and oversaw what I believe is democratic. | 但是由于我无法理解的原因,全国突然转向宗教角色,并监督我认为民主的东西. |
| 272 | It's either a democratic government or the rule of the king. | 要么是民主政府,要么是国王的统治. |
| 273 | I forgot the details, but it basically oversaw its old government and fall into a much more perhaps quote unquote oppressive religious rule. | 我忘了细节, 但基本上它监督着旧政府, |
| 274 | And it also experienced a mass economic downturn due to foreign sanctions. | 由于外国制裁,它还经历了大规模经济衰退。 |
| 275 | So perhaps could you more expand on details on maybe how the nation having a good state suddenly turned for a state as we foreigners see as a worse condition than they were previously in? | 所以也许你可以更深入地阐述一些细节, 也许一个好国家是如何突然变成一个像我们外国人 认为比他们以前更糟糕的国家的? |
| 276 | Yeah. | 对 |
| 277 | Well, thank you very much for this very thoughtful question. | 嗯,非常感谢你 这个非常周到的问题。 |
| 278 | First of all, I would remove the quotation marks around oppressive. | 首先,我要删除 引号围绕压迫。 |
| 279 | It is oppressive. | 这是压迫。 |
| 280 | So the religious order hardly can be called religious, but ideological really that has been superimposed on Iran is a very oppressive one. | 因此,宗教秩序几乎不能称为宗教秩序,但意识形态确实被叠加到伊朗身上,是一个非常压迫性的秩序。 |
| 281 | There's no doubt about it. | 无有疑惑. |
| 282 | But as far as what you've just said that why the Iranian society, which at the end of the 20th century 1970s was advanced in many ways, which would switch to something which for all evidence that we have is regressive and quote unquote you can call it bac | 但是,就你刚才所说的, 为什么在20世纪70年代末,伊朗社会 在许多方面得到了进步, 这将转向一些东西, 对于所有的证据 我们有倒退 并引用未引文, 你可以称之为落后。 |
| 283 | The answer to that is very, very complex. | 答案是非常非常复杂的。 |
| 284 | I would certainly suggest that you read some of my chapters in my book on part three and part four, which tries to answer this question. | 我当然建议你读一下我书中关于第三部分和第四部分的一些章节,这些章节试图回答这个问题。 |
| 285 | Part of it is that nobody actually opted for a religious regime per se. | 其中一部分是,实际上没有人选择宗教制度本身。 |
| 286 | Everybody was fascinated with a memory of this great leadership of the clergy in the past, and they thought what they have opted for is in Ayatollah Khomeini. | 每个人都对过去神职人员的伟大领导印象深刻,他们认为自己选择的是在阿亚图拉霍梅尼. |
| 287 | You can see a Mahatma Gandhi kind of a figure that he comes and basically rescues Iran from the hands of this very oppressive regime, as it was portrayed at the time. | 你可以看到一个圣雄甘地的人物,他来到了这里,基本上从这个非常压迫性的政权手中拯救伊朗,就像当时描绘的那样。 |
| 288 | And everybody, it was basically, it was governed by people's aspirations and hopes, rather than actual reality what they were opting for. | 而每个人,基本上,它是由人们的愿望和希望所支配的,而不是他们所选择的现实。 |
| 289 | And it took quite a while for them to recognize that the reality was very different from the expectations, but this is mostly from the Iranian middle classes that had experienced a secular culture for close to a 75 years at least. | 他们花了很长一段时间才意识到现实与预期大不相同,但这主要来自伊朗中产阶级,他们经历了至少近75年的世俗文化. |
| 290 | Urban populations in this, where generations like myself would have come, and my parents, my family. | 城市人口,在这里,像我这样的世代会来, 而我的父母,我的家人。 |
| 291 | Whereas there was also Iran exposed in the period of the 1960s and 70s to a very important demographic revolution, by which I mean that the population in Iran grew in size. | 虽然伊朗在1960年代和70年代也经历了一场非常重要的人口革命,我指的是伊朗的人口在增加。 |
| 292 | Mind you, China and Iran are two different worlds in terms of population. | 在人口方面,中国和伊朗是两个不同的世界。 |
| 293 | I mean, China had much greater resources, much greater population, much greater presence in its own region than Iran did. | 我的意思是,中国拥有比伊朗更多的资源,更多的人口,在本地区的存在也比伊朗大得多. |
| 294 | Iran was always exposed to all kinds of pandemics, problems, famines, lack of resources that never actually allowed it to develop a massive population. | 伊朗总是面临各种流行病、问题、饥荒、缺乏资源,以致它无法真正发展大批人口。 |
| 295 | The only time that it did in the middle of the 20th century from 1960s onwards, it resulted from a shift of the population from the countryside into the major cities that China also experienced, by the way. | 20世纪中叶唯一一次是1960年代以后,由于人口从农村转移至中国也经历的主要城市,故名. |
| 296 | But China managed to observe it, to absorb it much better than Iran of the 1960s and 70s did. | 但中国设法观察了它,吸收它比1960年代和70年代的伊朗要好得多. |
| 297 | So you would also witness that the revolution of 1979 in Iran was carried on the shoulder of this dislocated population from the countryside to the cities. | 1979年伊朗的革命 由这些离乡背井的民众 推向城市。 |
| 298 | And their expectation was very different from the urban, secular, freedom seeking, civil rights seeking society in the cities. | 他们的期望与城市中的世俗、 寻求自由、 寻求社会权利的民权大不相同。 |
| 299 | And that's what we see today. | 这就是我们今天看到的。 |
| 300 | What we see today is, as a matter of fact, that small crust of population, the crust of ruling elite in Iran basically was shaped from that countryside, from that experience of the population that came in the course of the 1960s and 70s to the cities and | 我们今天看到的是,事实上,伊朗人口小块地壳,统治精英的地壳,基本上是从那个农村、从1960年代和70年代到城市的人口经历中形成的,并改变了城市的性质。 |
| 301 | It happens in many countries in the world. | 这发生在世界上许多国家。 |
| 302 | From the time of the Industrial Revolution in 19th century, Europe can see the same phenomenon to take of today, which also is witnessing the same thing. | 从19世纪的工业革命时期起,欧洲可以看到今天的同样现象,这也见证了同样的事情. |
| 303 | China, as I pointed out, is a very good example of the massive population that moved from the countryside to the cities. | 正如我所指出,中国是从农村向城市迁移的大批人口的很好的例子。 |
| 304 | In the case of Iran, they readily were exploited, there is no other word for it, by a clerical establishment that managed not only to survive parallel secularization, despite all the isolations that they went through, but also managed to develop much bett | 就伊朗而言,他们很容易被利用,没有别的说法,因为一个文秘机构不仅设法在平行的世俗化中生存下来,尽管他们经历了种种孤立,而且还设法发展得更好。 |
| 305 | ties with this disadvantage underprivileged population that has come to the cities than the Iranian intellectual population, secular population in the cities. | 与这些贫困人口的关系, |
| 306 | And that was the key to the success of the Islamic regime, even up to today. | 这是伊斯兰政权成功的关键,甚至直到今天。 |
| 307 | Basically, they grew on the shoulder of this generation that supports it, and still to some extent support it, although we can argue that today that ruling class in Iran, ruling population, is a very thin crust compared to the majority of the population. | 基本上,他们成长在支持它的这一代人的肩上,而且在某种程度上仍然支持它,尽管我们可以说,今天伊朗统治阶级,统治人口,与大多数人口相比是非常薄的地壳. |
| 308 | Compared to the majority of the Iranians who are extremely critical of what they can see around them for very good reasons. | 与大多数伊朗人相比, |
| 309 | For reasons that they see that, as Professor Ji I think pointed out, the Iranian economy | 正如池教授所指出,伊朗的经济 |
| 310 | suffered, that Iran is in a much worse in many respects, compared to what it used to be in the 1960s and 70s. | 与1960年代和70年代相比,伊朗在许多方面情况更糟。 |
| 311 | But the course of world history, as some of you might know very well from your own personal experiences, is not something that it's always subject to reason. | 但是,世界历史的发展过程,正如你们中有些人从自己的个人经历中可能非常清楚的那样,并不是它总是受制于理性的事物. |
| 312 | It's not rational. | 这不合理。 |
| 313 | Things happen which is quite irrational. | 事情发生了,这是相当非理性的。 |
| 314 | And this is one of them, that you see that the outcome of a revolution, in many respects, Iranian population today is a very different world from what it used to be in the 1950s, for instance, or let's say earlier on. | 这是其中之一,你可以看到, 在许多方面,今天的伊朗人口 是一个与1950年代截然不同的世界, 比如说,或者我们更早地说。 |
| 315 | I'll just give you some in terms of demographic changes in Iran. | 就伊朗人口变化而言,我给你一些 |
| 316 | Iran of the 19... | 19岁的伊朗... |
| 317 | and early 1950s, it had a population of 18 million, 1818. | 1950年代初,它的人口为1800万,1818年。 |
| 318 | Population in today Iran is 85 million, 84, 85 million. | 今天,伊朗的人口为8 500万,8 400万,8 500万。 |
| 319 | So this kind of an explosion of the population | 所以这种人口爆炸 |
| 320 | plays a very important part in how you would feed the people, | 在如何养活人民方面扮演非常重要的角色, |
| 321 | how you would educate these people, | 你如何教育这些人, |
| 322 | how you would make life expectations, | 你将如何期待生命, |
| 323 | which is growing enormously. | 正在成长 |
| 324 | Once you are out of the village and into the city, | 一旦你离开村庄,进入城市, |
| 325 | you want more, you want better life, | 你想要更多, 你想要更好的生活, |
| 326 | you want better life for your children. | 你想让孩子过上更好的生活 |
| 327 | And all of this adds to the elements of this content, | 所有这一切都增加了这个内容的内容, |
| 328 | both of the previous regime and the current regime in Iran. | 伊朗前政权和现政权。 |
| 329 | And the current regime in Iran is facing | 伊朗现政权正面临 |
| 330 | with profound problems above all environmental, | 有着重大的环境问题, |
| 331 | lack of natural resources, enormous amount of corruption, | 缺乏自然资源,大量腐败, |
| 332 | enormous amount of abuse of power, | 大量滥用权力, |
| 333 | and misplaced priorities in today's world, | 和在当今世界上错误的优先事项, |
| 334 | today's regime in Iran. | 今天的伊朗政权. |
| 335 | So you spent hundreds of billions of dollars, | 所以你花了几千亿美元 |
| 336 | I'm not actually exaggerating, | 我其实没有夸张, |
| 337 | probably close to a hundred billion Iranian has spent | 可能已经花费了近千亿伊朗人 |
| 338 | on the nuclear projects, whatever it is, the nature of it. | 核项目,无论它是什么,它的性质。 |
| 339 | Whereas the Iranian population, if you look at it, | 而伊朗人,如果你看看它, |
| 340 | is in a desperate, desolate situation | 在绝望,荒凉的情况下 |
| 341 | when it comes to the life of the ordinary people | 当涉及到普通人的生活时 |
| 342 | facing enormous amount of inflation, | 面对巨大的通货膨胀, |
| 343 | enormous amount of poverty. | 巨大的贫困。 |
| 344 | Even within one generation, | 即使在一代人的时间里 |
| 345 | we can see that people have an experience | 我们可以看到人们有经验 |
| 346 | of how they used to live and how they are living today. | 他们过去的生活和今天的生活。 |
| 347 | So all of these are forces of irrationality | 所以所有这些都是非理性的力量 |
| 348 | that cannot be explained in terms of how | 无法解释如何 |
| 349 | a regime could conduct itself. | 一个政权可以自行行事。 |
| 350 | So they work for their own benefit, | 故他们为自己的利益而工作, |
| 351 | they don't work for the benefit | 他们不为福利工作 |
| 352 | of the majority population in the country. | 占全国人口多数。 |
| 353 | Even if they want to be more, | 即使他们想成为更多 |
| 354 | more they, I mean the regime in today's Iran, | 更多,我的意思是今天的伊朗政权, |
| 355 | if they want to be beneficial to the general public, | 如果他们想对公众有利 |
| 356 | they are trapped themselves into their captive of a system | 他们被困在他们的系统里 |
| 357 | that does not allow them to act the way that they should be | 不允许他们以应有的方式行事 |
| 358 | for the best benefit of their own people. | 为自己的人民谋福利。 |
| 359 | So that's a kind of an answer to a very complex question. | 所以这是一个非常复杂的问题的答案。 |
| 360 | Thank you. | 谢谢 |
| 361 | And that was a great question | 这是一个伟大的问题 |
| 362 | because it encapsulates so much of different things | 因为它包罗了这么多不同的东西 |
| 363 | that you cover in your book. | 在你的书中覆盖。 |
| 364 | So unfortunately we are out of time. | 不幸的是,我们没有时间了。 |
| 365 | That's what happens when you try to squeeze 500 | 这就是你试图挤500的下场 |
| 366 | or thousands of years of history into one hour. | 或几千年的历史 变成一个小时。 |
| 367 | But thank you very much, Professor Ramana | 谢谢你,拉马纳教授 |
| 368 | {\fn黑体\fs22\bord1\shad0\3aHBE\4aH00\fscx67\fscy66\2cHFFFFFF\3cH808080}有深度讨论 | |
| 369 | And thank you Professor Ji for joining us | 感谢池教授加入我们 |
| 370 | and for allowing us to have this conversation. | 并允许我们有这个对话。 |
| 371 | Thank you audience for joining us. | 感谢大家加入我们 |
| 372 | As per tradition, we do take a group photo at the end. | 按照传统,我们确实在最后拍了一张集体照片。 |
| 373 | And so as many people as would like to join our group photo, | 这么多人想加入我们的团体照片 |
| 374 | please go ahead and turn on your camera | 请继续打开相机 |
| 375 | so we can join in for a group photo together. | 这样我们就可以一起拍合影了 |
| 376 | And I will also unmute everybody | 我也会揭发所有人 |
| 377 | so that you guys can thank both professors personally. | 这样你们就可以亲自感谢两位教授了 |
| 378 | Let me before we end, thank Professor Ji. | 在结束之前,让我来,谢谢池教授 |
| 379 | I know what a labor it must have been | 我知道那一定是什么样的劳动 |
| 380 | to translate a thousand page book. | 翻译千页书。 |
| 381 | And he showed us a glance of it in Chinese translation. | 他用中文翻译给我们看了一眼。 |
| 382 | Can you show it as a game for a moment | 你能把它作为游戏展示一下吗? |
| 383 | so I can at least see from the distance, | 所以我至少能从远处看出来 |
| 384 | how does it look to cover? | 它看起来如何覆盖? |
| 385 | You had a copy there with you, yes? | 你有一份拷贝给你,是吗? |
| 386 | All right, can you show the copy of the Chinese book? | 好吧,你能把中国书的复制品拿出来吗? |
| 387 | Of the translation. | 译经中. |
| 388 | And the translation. | 及译. |
| 389 | Yeah, wonderful. | 不错 |
| 390 | There it is. | 就是这样 |
| 391 | This book is a piece of your own book. | 这本书是你自己的一本书 |
| 392 | Thank you so much. | 非常感谢 |
| 393 | That's Chinese twins. | 那是中国双胞胎 |
| 394 | It's what? | 这是什么? |
| 395 | A Chinese twin. | 中国双胞胎. |
| 396 | It's a Chinese twin. | 中国双胞胎. |
| 397 | Yes, yes, it may be very well. | 是的,是的,这可能是非常好的。 |
| 398 | I would love to know more about it. | 我很想知道更多关于它。 |
| 399 | Because this book have the same mother and the father. | 因为这本书有相同的父母. |
| 400 | Yeah, it is in Iran, | 是的,这是在伊朗, |
| 401 | it has been interpreted in so many ways. | 其解释方式如此之多。 |
| 402 | One way is the way that the religion | 一种方式是 宗教的方式 |
| 403 | and the state are two sisters. | 国家是两个姐妹。 |
| 404 | And this is the presentation of the two of them, | 这是他们俩的介绍 |
| 405 | like the two branches of a tree, | 就像树上的两根树枝, |
| 406 | they're basically grown into one another. | 他们基本上 成长成彼此。 |
| 407 | So, but there are other interpretations | 所以,但还有其他的解释 |
| 408 | about this world, next world. | 关于这个世界, 下一个世界。 |
| 409 | There are all kinds of dichotomy associated with it. | 与此有种种分别. |
| 410 | But if there is one in Chinese, | 但如果有中文的话 |
| 411 | I would love to hear about it. | 我很想听到这个消息。 |
| 412 | Yes, great. | 是的,伟大的。 |
| 413 | All right, thank you so much. | 好吧,非常感谢。 |
| 414 | Great, thank you so much. | 太好了,非常感谢。 |
| 415 | And thank you both of you again for joining us. | 再次感谢你们加入我们 |
| 416 | Thank you for the audience for joining us. | 感谢大家的光临 |
| 417 | And thank you again to Duke Media | 再次感谢杜克媒体 |
| 418 | for co-hosting this event. | 联合主办这次活动 |
| 419 | And we'll see what we can do | 我们看看能做些什么 |
| 420 | by getting you that Chinese coffee. | 帮你买中国咖啡 |
| 421 | I appreciate that. | 我很感激。 |
| 422 | Thank you very much, Devin, for facilitating this. | 非常感谢你,德文,为这个提供便利。 |
| 423 | And also my thanks to the publisher. | 我也感谢出版商。 |
| 424 | In the end, I should see Iran is great nation. | 最后,我应该看到伊朗是一个伟大的国家。 |
| 425 | Iran is great civilization. | 伊朗是伟大的文明。 |
| 426 | And this book is great book. | 而此书极妙. |
| 427 | And it's writer is a great historian. | 它的作家是一个伟大的历史学家。 |
| 428 | And I like this book spread and popular in China. | 我喜欢这本书在中国传播和流行。 |
| 429 | Let's more and more Chinese people | 我们让越来越多的中国人 |
| 430 | to understand the Iranian history and the culture. | 了解伊朗的历史和文化。 |
| 431 | And that's my responsibility. | 这是我的责任 |
| 432 | That's my immersion. | 这是我的浸润。 |
| 433 | Okay, thank you. | 好的 谢谢 |
| 434 | Thank you very much. | 谢谢 |
| 435 | I appreciate it. | 谢谢 |
| 436 | Thank you. | 谢谢 |
| 437 | And hopefully we will be able to bring | 希望我们能带来 |
| 438 | Professor Amina to China to visit in person soon. | 阿米纳教授不久到中国亲自访问. |
| 439 | I will talk so. | 我会这么说的。 |
| 440 | Okay, thank you everybody. | 好的,谢谢大家 |
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