我们为什么需要一个新的海洋政治学？

发布于 2022-03-11 · 时长 1:01:43

字幕摘录

时间	英文	中文
0:04	Hello, everybody.	哈罗,大家好。
0:06	For those of you guys that are joining us, China, good evening to you, and	为你们这些加入我们的人中国晚安
0:12	good morning if you're joining us from the U.S., and good day for everybody in Europe as well.	早上好,如果你从美国加入我们, 和美好的一天在欧洲的每一个人。
0:19	My name is Devin Lau, and I'm the Assistant Director of Yale Center Beijing, and I'm very	我叫刘德文我是耶鲁中心主任助理
0:23	happy today to host yet another one of our talks with the Yale University Press on some interesting	今天很高兴能再主持一次我们和耶鲁大学出版社的会谈讨论一些有趣的
0:30	books that they have coming out, including today's book, which we'll discuss in a bit.	包括今天的书我们稍后再讨论
0:37	Just as a quick note, because we have a good moderate-sized crowd here, if you're willing	顺便说一句因为我们这里有很好的温和人群如果你愿意
0:43	to turn on your webcams, that's very nice to be able to talk to some faces instead of just	打开你的摄像头, 这是非常好的能够与一些面孔说话而不是仅仅
0:51	a black screen with names, and so for those of you guys that are willing and able to, it'd be	有名字的黑幕所以对于你们这些愿意和有能力的人来说
0:57	really appreciated if you could turn on your webcams, that's always nice.	如果你能打开你的摄像头,那就太好了

展开字幕全文（577 条）

序号	英文	中文
1	Hello, everybody.	哈罗,大家好。
2	For those of you guys that are joining us, China, good evening to you, and	为你们这些加入我们的人中国晚安
3	good morning if you're joining us from the U.S., and good day for everybody in Europe as well.	早上好,如果你从美国加入我们, 和美好的一天在欧洲的每一个人。
4	My name is Devin Lau, and I'm the Assistant Director of Yale Center Beijing, and I'm very	我叫刘德文我是耶鲁中心主任助理
5	happy today to host yet another one of our talks with the Yale University Press on some interesting	今天很高兴能再主持一次我们和耶鲁大学出版社的会谈讨论一些有趣的
6	books that they have coming out, including today's book, which we'll discuss in a bit.	包括今天的书我们稍后再讨论
7	Just as a quick note, because we have a good moderate-sized crowd here, if you're willing	顺便说一句因为我们这里有很好的温和人群如果你愿意
8	to turn on your webcams, that's very nice to be able to talk to some faces instead of just	打开你的摄像头, 这是非常好的能够与一些面孔说话而不是仅仅
9	a black screen with names, and so for those of you guys that are willing and able to, it'd be	有名字的黑幕所以对于你们这些愿意和有能力的人来说
10	really appreciated if you could turn on your webcams, that's always nice.	如果你能打开你的摄像头,那就太好了
11	Because some of you guys may be new here, I'll do a quick introduction to Yale Center Beijing.	因为你们中有些人可能是新来的, 我会快速介绍一下耶鲁中心北京。
12	Yale	耶鲁
13	Center Beijing is Yale University's only university-wide center outside of New Haven,	北京中心是耶鲁大学唯一的全大学中心在纽黑文之外
14	where we host all sorts of programs across the university covering all sorts of topics,	在那里,我们主办各种课程整个大学涵盖各种主题,
15	from economics to politics to biology and art history and music, drama, everything,	从经济学到政治到生物学和艺术史音乐,戏剧,一切,
16	and we like to showcase some of the most exciting things that are coming out of Yale University,	我们想展示耶鲁大学的一些最令人兴奋的东西
17	of course, but also just entering into global dialogue with thought leaders from around the	当然,但是也只是与来自
18	world, and so that's what we're doing today.	这就是我们今天要做的
19	Today we're very lucky to have Professor Chris	今天我们很幸运有克里斯教授
20	Armstrong join us.	阿姆斯特朗加入我们
21	He is Professor of Political Theory at the University of Southampton.	现任南安普敦大学政治理论教授.
22	He studied	他学习
23	politics at the Universities of Durham and Bristol, as well as at the London School of Economics,	达勒姆大学和布里斯托尔大学以及伦敦经济学院的政治
24	and he's also been a visiting fellow at the University of Oxford Center for the Study of	他也是牛津大学研究中心的客座研究员
25	Social Justice, as well as at Australian National University School of Philosophy.	社会正义,以及澳大利亚国立大学哲学学院。
26	He's published over 40 academic articles and is the author of Global Distributive Justice,	他发表了40多篇学术文章,是"全球分配正义"的作者,
27	Justice and Natural Resources and Egalitarian Theory, and Why Global Justice Matters,	《正义与自然资源》和《平等论》,以及《为什么全球正义事关重大》,
28	Moral Progress in a Divided World, and so as you can see from his previous publications,	从他之前的著作中可以看出,
29	he's very much interested in global justice and has turned his attention to a more specific	他对全球正义非常感兴趣并把注意力转向更具体的
30	field within that for his latest book, which is on oceans, and so we'll be discussing his	他最近写的关于海洋的书所以我们会讨论他
31	newest book, which is published by Yale University Press, called A Blue New Deal,	最新著作,耶鲁大学出版社出版,名为"蓝色新政",
32	Why We Need a New Politics for the Ocean, and so he'll give a quick talk and then we'll be opening	为什么我们需要为海洋制定新的政治, 所以他会提供一个快速的谈话,然后我们将开始
33	up time for Q&A from the audience, and so we'll have further instructions when we get there,	到时我们再得到进一步指示
34	but without further ado, Professor Chris Armstrong.	克里斯·阿姆斯特朗教授,但已经不说了
35	Well, thank you very much for	非常感谢你
36	the introduction.	介绍。
37	Can you hear me okay?	你能听到我吗?
38	Yep.	对
39	Okay, so it's wonderful to be here to talk to you.	很高兴能来和你谈谈
40	I	一、导言
41	just leant over to grab the book because now it actually exists.	只是靠过来拿书因为现在它实际上存在。
42	I'm really happy to be able	我真的很高兴能够
43	to show it to people.	以示众生.
44	So before I start, my understanding is that we have people in the	在我开始之前,我的理解是,我们有人在...
45	audience from all kinds of different backgrounds who studied all kinds of different disciplines,	来自不同背景的观众研究不同学科
46	so I'm going to try and, although I do talk about some philosophical ideas and also some scientific	所以我会尝试, 虽然我确实谈了一些哲学思想和一些科学
47	understanding of the ocean, we'll come through as well.	对海洋的理解,我们也会通过。
48	I want to make this accessible to	我想把这个打开
49	everybody, so I'm not going to be assuming lots of special knowledge, which is kind of appropriate	各位,所以我不打算假设很多特殊的知识, 这有点合适
50	because, as Devin says, I'm a political theorist or philosopher.	因为,正如德文所说,我是一个政治理论家或哲学家.
51	I'm not an ocean biologist or	我不是海洋生物学家
52	anything along those lines, so writing this book has been a kind of voyage of discovery for me,	写这本书对我来说是一次探索之旅
53	too, and communicating to a wide audience is part of what I'm trying to do.	与广大观众沟通也是我努力的一部分。
54	Okay, so	好吧,这样吧
55	I call the book A Blue New Deal, Why We Need a New Politics for the Ocean.	我把这书叫做蓝新政, 为什么我们需要海洋的新政治。
56	I just saw a question	我刚刚看到一个问题
57	pop up.	弹出。
58	Yes, it is available now on Amazon, and the puzzle I start with is that the ocean, of course,	是的,它现在可以在亚马逊上找到我开始的谜题是,海洋,当然,
59	as we all know, covers most of our planet, roughly 70 percent of the surface of the Earth,	我们都知道, 覆盖我们的大部分星球, 大约70%的地球表面,
60	but in political life, it's often out of sight and out of mind, so very few governments have	但是,在政治生活中,它常常是失去视野和头脑的,所以很少有政府有
61	ministries for the ocean.	负责海洋事务的部委。
62	It doesn't really appear in public consciousness with any great	它并不真正出现在公众意识中任何伟大的
63	regularity, unless something exceptional happens, like a ship gets stuck in the Suez Canal or	规律性,除非发生不寻常的事情, 就像一艘船被困在苏伊士运河里或者
64	something along those lines and we suddenly start thinking about the ocean.	沿着这些思路的东西我们突然开始思考海洋。
65	But the ocean really	但大海确实
66	matters, so we depend on the ocean for our survival.	我们靠海洋生存
67	So as a schoolchild in England, I was told	所以,作为一个英国的学童,我被告知
68	that the rainforests were the lungs of the Earth, that they absorb carbon dioxide, use the carbon	雨林是地球的肺它们吸收二氧化碳利用碳
69	and emit oxygen that we breathe, and that is true, and therefore the rainforests are hugely important,	释放氧气,我们呼吸, 这是真实的, 因此雨林非常重要,
70	but we now know that it's really the ocean which is playing the role of the lungs of the world.	但是我们现在知道, 真正的海洋正在扮演世界肺的作用。
71	It's absorbed the great majority of the carbon that we've emitted, and it also produces most of	它吸收了我们排放的绝大多数碳并且还产生大部分碳
72	the oxygen that we breathe, and that's mainly because of tiny organisms that live in the ocean	我们呼吸的氧气, 这主要是因为小生物生活在海洋中
73	called phytoplankton, plant plankton.	被称为浮游植物,植物浮游植物.
74	It's also the case that the ocean regulates temperatures	海洋调节温度也是这样
75	and drives weather patterns, so our planet really wouldn't be habitable if it didn't have this ocean	并驱动天气模式, 所以我们的星球真的不会居住,如果它没有这个海洋
76	smoothing out variations in temperature.	平滑出温度的变化。
77	Many people depend in agriculture on monsoons	很多人靠季风耕作
78	which originate out at sea.	起源于海上
79	Clearly hundreds of millions of people are nutritionally dependent	显然数亿人依赖营养
80	on fish too, so there's a huge dependence on the ocean, and if anything that dependence is growing.	所以对海洋的依赖很大如果有依赖性在增长的话
81	So social scientists and economists often talk about what they call a blue acceleration,	所以社会科学家和经济学家经常谈论他们所谓的蓝色加速,
82	which is an oceanward shift in the the center of gravity in our economies.	我们经济的重心正向海洋转移
83	Ocean industries are	海洋工业
84	growing faster than the economy as a whole.	增长快于整个经济.
85	We see ever greater effort and money and resources	我们看到了更大的努力和金钱和资源
86	thrown into industrial fishing but especially into fish farming.	投入工业捕鱼,特别是养鱼。
87	We see oil and gas drilling	我们看到油气钻探
88	in this century overwhelmingly taking place offshore.	本世纪绝大多数发生在海外
89	We may soon see mining of the deep	我们很快就会看到开采深层
90	seabed because scattered across a deep seabed are potentially hugely valuable minerals including	由于散布在深海海底的海底可能是价值巨大的矿物,包括:
91	lots of minerals that are key to high-tech industries and the industries of the future.	许多矿产是高科技产业和未来产业的关键.
92	So our economies are relying more and more on the ocean.	因此,我们的经济越来越依赖海洋。
93	At the same time however we are	同时,我们是
94	increasingly appreciating that we are undermining the environmental foundations of the ocean	日益认识到我们正在破坏海洋的环境基础,
95	as an ecosystem.	作为生态系统。
96	Obviously the big story here is climate change.	显然,这里的大故事是气候变化。
97	So climate change is creating two	因此,气候变化正在创造两个
98	massive challenges at sea.	海上的巨大挑战。
99	One effect that climate change has is that it causes the ocean to warm	气候变化的一个影响是它导致海洋变暖
100	and when the ocean warms it expands.	当海洋变暖时,它会膨胀。
101	So the expansion of the ocean drives sea level rise	因此海洋的扩张推动海平面上升
102	and something like 170 million people worldwide live no more than one meter above sea level,	全世界有1亿7千万人生活在海拔不到1米的地方
103	but it looks as though those people are going to be extremely vulnerable to	但看起来这些人极易受到
104	climate change driven sea level rise.	气候变化驱动的海平面上升。
105	Even if we mitigate, even if we take really serious efforts	即使我们减轻, 即使我们采取真正的努力
106	to mitigate climate change in the coming decade or so, a degree of sea level rise is already locked	为在今后十年左右中减缓气候变化,已经锁定了一定程度的海平面上升
107	in and it's going to create major problems.	这会引发大问题
108	So some entire countries could disappear particularly	所以,一些整个国家可能会消失特别是
109	in the case of small island states but even people in you know large countries that are not going to	就小岛屿国家而言,但即使你们中的人也了解大国,它们不会
110	appear may well lose lots of agricultural space to sea level rise.	似乎很可能因为海平面上升而失去许多农业空间。
111	Many cities especially in Asia	特别是亚洲的许多城市
112	are located close to the coast.	位于海岸附近。
113	The warming of the ocean also creates another effect which is	海洋变暖也造成了另一种影响,即
114	because many fish are quite sensitive to temperature differences they will often move	因为很多鱼对温度差异相当敏感它们经常移动
115	in response to warming and so in general fish are moving away from the equator and towards the poles	为了应对暖化鱼一般会远离赤道走向极点
116	which for people who live in you know high northern and southern latitudes might be a good thing at	对于你所居住的人们来说高纬度和高纬度可能是件好事
117	least for a while but for people who live around the equator is not a great thing because it means	但对于生活在赤道周围的人来说并不是一件大事因为这意味着
118	that there is a great nutritional challenge there.	那里存在着巨大的营养挑战。
119	The other big change that climate change is bringing	气候变化带来的另一个巨大变化
120	about is the acidification of the ocean so if there are any scientists among you you probably	海洋的酸化所以如果你们中间有科学家的话
121	know much more about this than I do but as the ocean absorbs more and more carbon it in effect	比我更了解这一点但是随着海洋吸收的碳越来越多它实际上
122	forms carbonic acid its acidity increases slightly and this is a major problem because many of the	形成碳酸它的酸性略有增加这是一个大问题因为很多
123	organisms that are at the base of the marine food web have calciferous shells they have shells that	在海洋食物网底部的生物有钙壳它们有壳
124	are made up of calcium which will be partly dissolved or completely dissolved in a acidifying	由钙组成,在酸化中部分溶解或完全溶解
125	{\fn华文楷体\fs16\1cHE0E0E0}海洋
126	So these creatures will not be able to repair their bodies or even grow at all perhaps	因此,这些生物将无法修复他们的身体甚至成长,也许
127	acidification continues and this we don't really know what the consequences for the	酸化仍在继续,我们并不真正知道后果是什么
128	marine food web could be but they could be really serious.	海洋食物网可能是,但它们可能真的很严重。
129	Now we know there are other	现在我们知道还有其他的
130	environmental challenges out there in the ocean as well there is great public awareness these days	海洋中的环境挑战,以及目前公众的高度认识
131	of plastic pollution some people are aware of harmful fishing practices so overfishing in general	某些人意识到有害的捕鱼做法,因此普遍过度捕捞。
132	but also practices like bottom trawling that destroy vulnerable habitats on the sea floor	破坏海底脆弱生境的底拖网捕捞法
133	and we recently learned there was a study from the US that told us horrifyingly that bottom	我们最近从美国得知一项研究使我们惊恐地告诉我们底部
134	trawling appears to be responsible for more emissions of carbon than the whole global	拖网捕捞造成的碳排放似乎比整个全球都要多。
135	aviation industry because it stirs up carbon which is locked away currently on the seabed.	因为它激起碳碳被锁在海底
136	Agriculture often pours lots of nitrogen into rivers you know inadvertently that spurs the	农业常常会把大量的氮气倒进河流中无意中刺激了
137	growth of algae that then dies off and sucks the oxygen out of the water and we get these dead zones	藻类的生长,然后死亡吸氧出水我们得到这些死区
138	where the fish die and you know people dependent on fish have a serious problem.	在那里,鱼死了你知道人们依赖鱼有一个严重的问题。
139	So that's	这么说吧
140	the first major problem and maybe the biggest problem we face in the ocean	这是第一个大问题也许是我们在海洋中面临的最大问题
141	the challenge of environmental disruption but there's also what I call in the book a second	环境破坏的挑战,但我书中也叫第二
142	oceanic crisis at play which is a crisis of inequality so clearly if you look at a map	海洋危机,这是不平等的危机如此明显,如果你看看地图
143	of the world you can see that some countries lack access to the sea there are landlocked countries	你们可以看到,一些国家没有进入海洋的通道,这些国家是内陆国家。
144	and economists tell us if you are a landlocked country although there are success stories like	经济学家告诉我们,你是否是一个内陆国家, 虽然有一些成功的故事,比如
145	Switzerland most landlocked countries are very poor this is a disadvantage there are also countries	瑞士大多数内陆国家都非常贫穷,这也是一些国家的不利条件。
146	which have a very modest coastline compared to the size of their population and other countries	与人口数量和其他国家相比,其海岸线非常小。
147	which have very large coastlines in many cases countries like the like France and the United	在许多情况下,法国和英国等国家的海岸线非常宽阔。
148	Kingdom which have huge marine territorial entitlements have those entitlements in part	拥有大量海洋领土权利的王国部分享有这些权利。
149	because they picked up possessions as they call them during the colonial period so small islands	因为他们在殖民时期收集到他们所谓的财产如此的小岛
150	out there in the Pacific or the Atlantic where almost nobody lives now grant those post-imperial	在太平洋或大西洋,现在几乎没有人给予后帝国。
151	countries large what get called exclusive economic zones in the ocean which I'll talk about shortly.	海洋中被称作专属经济区的大国,我很快会谈论。
152	A country like China has a huge population but for its size a relatively modest exclusive economic	象中国这样的国家,人口众多,但就其规模而言,却是相对温和的独家经济
153	zone a country like Chile for example has a much smaller population but as you know it runs all the	例如,智利这样的国家人口少得多,但你知道,它管理着所有
154	way down one coast of South America and has a huge exclusive economic zone so this is one source of	沿着南美洲的一个海岸拥有一个巨大的专属经济区所以这是一个来源
155	disparity or inequality in the ocean economy another final source of inequality in the ocean	海洋经济的差异或不平等是海洋不平等的另一个最终根源
156	economy is going to be capacity state capacity and an economic capacity so some of the marine	经济将成为能力国家的能力和经济能力,因此一些海洋
157	industries that I've mentioned seabed mining offshore fossil fuel extraction are extremely	我提到的海底采矿业近海化石燃料开采极为严重
158	technologically challenging and therefore expensive and many countries just don't have the resources	技术上具有挑战性,因此费用昂贵,许多国家没有资源
159	to engage in those industries so what they end up doing is is selling access to corporations	因此,他们最终要做的是出售进入公司的机会
160	based elsewhere who reap most of the dividends and some countries simply lack enforcement capacity	* 设在其他地方,获得大部分红利,一些国家完全缺乏执法能力;
161	so off the coast of West Africa there are some of the poorest countries in the world but there	所以在西非沿岸世界上有些最贫穷的国家
162	are some very rich fisheries it's a very fertile marine ecosystem but there are really pervasive	是一个非常肥沃的海洋生态系统但确实很普遍
163	problems with illegal fishing that local states just don't really have the resources to	非法捕鱼的问题当地州没有资源
164	effectively tackle so we have these big problems a kind of multifaceted environmental crisis	有效地解决了这些大问题并带来了多方面的环境危机
165	and growing inequality in the ocean economy so what I really want to do in the book is to ask	海洋经济越来越不平等所以我在书中真正想做的就是问
166	two main questions how did we end up here how did we end up with these crises and how can we do	两大问题:我们是如何在这里结束的? 我们是如何结束这些危机的?
167	better so let's talk first about how we got here so I don't know how much people in the audience	最好先说说我们怎么来的我不知道观众有多少人
168	know about the law and politics of the ocean but the governance of the ocean is really	了解海洋的法律和政治但海洋的治理才是真正的
169	a patchwork we have different kinds of zones in the ocean which are governed in different	在海洋里,我们有不同的区域管理着不同的区域
170	ways and that patchwork arises because we've thought about ocean politics in two starkly	和杂乱无章的产生因为我们在两个尖锐的海洋政治
171	different ways and each of those ways of thinking about the ocean has left a legacy	不同的海洋思维方式都留下了遗产
172	so the first great approach to governing the ocean is the idea of freedom of the sea and	所以管理海洋的第一个伟大方法就是海洋自由的理念
173	the freedom of the sea essentially says you can go wherever you want to and you can extract	大海的自由基本上说你可以去任何地方,你可以提取
174	whichever resources you might come across and that's historically hugely influential	无论你可能遇到什么资源这是历史上非常有影响力的
175	in ocean law and politics it often gets associated with a 17th century Dutch scholar called Hugo	与17世纪荷兰学者雨果有关
176	Grotius 或 Hugo de Groot 参与现在被称为荷兰的辩论
177	and Portugal out there in what they call the East Indies about who is entitled to say where	和葡萄牙在那里他们称为东印度群岛关于谁有权说在哪里
178	but what's important is that Grotius gives us this picture of the ocean	但重要的是 Grotius给我们这幅海洋的照片
179	which suggests that it's simply inexhaustible in its size and in its resources in Grotius's mind	这说明它的规模和在格罗提乌斯的脑海中资源是无限的
180	nothing that I do in the ocean is really going to affect what you do on the ocean if I start to	如果我开始在海洋里做任何事情都会影响你在海洋上做的事
181	scoop up fish or pearls or anything else I might want to harvest this doesn't have any impact on	捞起鱼或珍珠或其他任何我想收获的东西这不会影响
182	anyone else because the resources of the ocean are basically unlimited as far as we can tell	任何人,因为海洋的资源基本上是无限的, 据我们所知
183	now of course we now know that that's not true in fact arguably even in Grotius's time it should	现在我们当然知道,事实并非如此即使在格罗提斯的时间里
184	have been obvious that that was not true in a European experience for example we saw overfishing	显然,在欧洲的经验中并非如此,例如我们看到过度捕捞。
185	of herring and collapses in fish stocks we know that whalers in Europe were having to go further	我们知道欧洲的捕鲸者必须更进一步
186	and further a sea all the way down towards Antarctica to find whales to catch because of	沿着南极洲向南延伸寻找捕鲸鱼
187	limits on resources in Grotius's language but still in contemporary ocean governance in 2022	Grotius语言对资源的限制,但在2022年仍属于当代海洋治理
188	70 percent of the ocean what gets called the high seas is essentially governed under the principle	70%的海洋被称作公海基本上由原则管理
189	of the freedom of the sea there are modest limits on what states can do out there on the high seas	在公海上各国所能做的有限
190	in terms of extracting resources the other great approach to ocean governance is what we can call	在开采资源方面,海洋治理的另一个伟大办法是我们可以称之为:
191	enclosure which carves out part of the ocean and turns them into the territory of individual states	将部分海洋划出并变成个别国家领土的封存物
192	and in particular the big change here happens in 1982 when the United Nations convention on the	特别是1982年联合国《消除对妇女一切形式歧视公约》
193	law of the sea is signed it eventually comes into force in 1994 and what it does is it says that	海洋法的签署最终于1994年生效,它所做的是说
194	coastal state is entitled to an exclusive economic zone and that zone can reach out for	沿海国有权享有一个专属经济区,该区可争取
195	up to 200 nautical miles from each country's shore and within that exclusive economic zone	距离各国海岸和专属经济区200海里
196	it is the local coastal state which gets to decide what happens to resources so if it wants to fish	当地沿海国家可以决定资源会怎样所以如果它想捕鱼
197	it can if it wants to extract fossil fuels it can it doesn't need to share it doesn't need to offer	它可以,如果它想提取化石燃料它可以不需要分享它不需要提供
198	access to anyone else in a sense it has resource sovereignty within those those zones it also has	从某种意义上说,它拥有在这些区域内的资源主权。
199	rights over the seabed there's a parallel regime in international law called the continental shelf	国际法中有一个称为大陆架的平行制度。
200	regime now there is an argument for enclosure and the argument says something like you know	当局现在有论点的附文和论点说的东西类似你知道
201	if we don't have enclosure we will end up with a tragedy of the commons people will do what they	如果我们没有封口,我们最终会一场悲剧普通百姓将做他们
202	like we ought to have stewards of the ocean and individual states if they have their own marine	就像我们应该有海洋的管理者和单个国家如果他们有自己的海军陆战队
203	territories will act as stewards and we'll see more rational use and conservation of marine	领土将充当管理者,我们将看到更合理使用和养护海洋
204	ecosystems but the practice of exclusive economic zones is is much more tragic so	生态系统,但专属经济区的做法更为悲惨。
205	the over exploitation of fish and the collapse of fish stocks accelerates after 1982 rather than	在1982年之后,过度开发鱼类和鱼类种群崩溃的速度加快,而不是
206	being eradicated there are some countries norway for example which has managed local fish stocks	例如,有一些国家没有办法管理当地鱼类种群。
207	well but there are many more examples where catch levels have become completely unsustainable	但还有许多例子表明,渔获量已完全无法维持。
208	on the high seas which is still governed under the principle of freedom of the sea	公海上仍然受海洋自由原则管辖的公海上
209	we have very weak institutions so we do have institutions that govern fishing on the high	我们的机构非常薄弱,所以我们确实有管理高地捕鱼的机构
210	seas they're called regional fisheries management organizations but they are clubs and if a given	海洋,它们被称为区域渔业管理组织,但它们是俱乐部,如果有的话
211	country doesn't want to join that club it's not going to be bound by any rules it negotiates	国家不想加入俱乐部它不会受任何规则的约束
212	on the fishing of particular stocks we also have a situation whereby fishing companies can	我们也有这样的情况:
213	as law of the sea scholars put it they can flag out in other words they can transfer their vessel	海洋法学者说,他们可以旗帜换句话说,他们可以转移他们的船
214	so that it sails under the flag of another country which simply doesn't belong to the relevant	这样它就会在另一个国家旗下航行而这个国家根本不属于相关
215	regional fisheries management organization so if they want to catch as much tuna as they can	* 区域渔业管理组织,如果它们希望尽可能多地捕捞金枪鱼
216	there aren't really any legal impediments so i think this picture explains why ocean politics	没有任何法律障碍所以我认为这张照片解释了为什么海洋政治
217	is is failing if the ocean is a single interconnected whole if it's in if its ecosystems	如果海洋是一个连成一体的整体,如果它的生态系统在其中,它就会失败
218	are interdependent then we need to i think to think about ocean politics in in new and	那么,我们需要思考海洋政治在新的和
219	more progressive ways so fortunately the world's leaders are not completely ignorant of the	更进步的方式幸运的是,世界领导人并不是完全不知道
220	challenges that we face in the sea within the united nations framework negotiations are ongoing	我们在联合国框架内面临的海洋挑战正在进行中
221	for a new legal instrument which would govern what gets called biodiversity beyond national	制定新的法律文书,规范国家以外所谓的生物多样性
222	jurisdiction so the marine genetic resources out there in the high seas for example that treaty	因此,公海上的海洋遗传资源,例如该条约
223	is in the making and the draft anyone can read the draft it's on the internet it contains some	正在制作中, 草案中任何人都可以读到它在互联网上包含一些
224	positive language it says that we need to take an integrated approach to ocean governance we need	它说我们需要对海洋治理采取综合办法
225	to be proactive we need to embody a precautionary approach control activities that could damage	要主动积极,我们需要体现一种预防方法,控制活动可能会损害
226	marine ecosystems unfortunately the draft treaty as it stands today looks like it is likely to be	不幸的是,条约草案今天看来很可能是
227	insufficient in light of the scale of the challenges that we face so one incredible	鉴于我们面临如此巨大的挑战,
228	fact about the draft treaty is it won't regulate fishing at all but fish are just not discussed	条约草案的事实是它根本不会管制捕鱼但鱼只是不讨论
229	in the draft treaty with the implication that fishing activities can go on as they currently	条约草案中的捕鱼活动可以继续
230	operate the draft treaty is really clear to say that it's not going to undermine states existing	条约草案确实明确表明,它不会破坏现有的国家。
231	freedoms guaranteed under the freedom of the sea but it may be that we have to qualify some	自由在海洋自由下得到保障,但也许我们必须对一些自由作出限定。
232	of states existing freedoms if we want to tackle the environmental problems that we face	如果我们想解决我们面临的环境问题,
233	if marine genetic resources are employed the draft treaty sells us tells us that there	如果使用海洋遗传资源条约草案会告诉我们
234	ought to be some kind of benefit sharing mechanism but the language it uses to discuss	应该是某种利益分享机制但它用来讨论
235	benefit sharing mechanisms that are extremely vague it looks as though benefit sharing mechanisms	利益分享机制极其模糊,似乎利益分享机制
236	might be entirely voluntary so it's also not clear how the draft treaty will turn around	可能是完全自愿的,所以也不清楚条约草案将如何转向
237	inequalities in the contemporary ocean economy so to me it looks like a missed opportunity	当代海洋经济的不平等在我看来是个错失的机会
238	so just to finish i'm aware of the clock i think we need to do better in ocean politics and i think	所以为了完成我意识到的时钟我认为我们需要在海洋政治方面做得更好我认为
239	we can do better if we're going to better produce the ocean protect the ocean ecosystem and achieve	如果我们要更好地生产海洋保护海洋生态系统和实现
240	a fairer ocean economy i think we need to set our sights higher if we look at places like antarctica	一个更公平的海洋经济,我认为我们需要设置我们的视野更高的如果我们看的地方像阿塔克提卡
241	where we have a powerful long-standing antarctic treaty which was signed in 1959 and is still in	1959年签署并仍在执行的强有力的长期禁忌条约
242	place what the antarctic treaty system does is to say effectively that the whole of antarctica is	将最终条约制度所做的,就是有效地说,整个最终条约是
243	a place beyond sovereignty where states agree to cooperate to preserve antarctica as a place of	如果各国同意进行合作,将南极洲保留为主权之外的地方,
244	peace and of science extractive activities in antarctica are completely outlawed like states	和平和科学在南极洲的采掘活动像国家一样完全非法
245	can't go to antarctica and hoover up resources so i think one question i would like to leave people	不能去Antarctica 和囤积资源所以我想一个问题我想离开的人
246	with is why we couldn't do something similar on the high seas at present what we have in the high	这就是为什么我们不能做类似的东西在公海上,现在,我们拥有在高处。
247	seas are marine protected areas that cover some portions of the high seas but as i say they are	海洋是海洋保护区,覆盖公海的某些部分,但正如我所说的,它们是
248	optional if the your state doesn't belong doesn't hasn't signed up to that marine protected area	如果不属于你的国家还没有报名到海洋保护区
249	be no limits on your activities and if you even if your state has signed up to that marine protected	行动不受限制,即使你的国家已经报名参加海洋保护
250	area you can switch flag and avoid being bound by those rules so it looks as though on the high seas	你可以换旗避免受那些规则的约束所以看起来好像在公海上
251	constraints on economic activities are basically optional and some of you may know that the the	对经济活动的限制基本上是可选的,有些人可能知道,
252	mining of the deep seabed meanwhile is is moving closer and closer there are organisms on the the	深海海底的采矿活动越来越密切,
253	floor which are incredibly slow growing which are unlikely to be able to survive the impact of mining	地表生长异常缓慢不太可能承受采矿的影响
254	activities but the legal framework to protect those organisms hasn't really kept pace with	但是保护这些生物体的法律框架并没有真正跟上
255	the technological developments that may make mining possible really soon so towards the end	技术的发展可能使采矿真正成为可能
256	of the book just to finish what i do in the final chapter is to engage in some really kind of radical	为了完成我在最后一章中所做的事情就是参与一些真正的激进
257	blue skies thinking i'm not claiming this is likely to happen anytime soon but if we take	蓝色的天空认为,我不声称这一切可能很快就会发生但如果我们采取
258	the kind of antarctic model or we take the antarctic the model of let's say a national park or	那种古老的模型或者我们把古老的模型比如说国家公园
259	maybe better an international park and apply it to the high seas i think we can see an alternative	也许更好的一个国际公园并将其应用到公海我认为我们可以看到一个替代方案
260	future so i paint a picture of what i call a world ocean authority essentially acts in a kind of	所以我画了一幅我称之为世界海洋管理局的图画基本上在某种
261	stewardship role over the high seas will only allow extractive activities if it can be reasonably	对公海的管理作用只有在能够合理地进行开采活动的情况下才允许进行。
262	confident that they won't be destructive and i think in practice what that's likely to mean	相信他们不会破坏我实际上想那可能意味着什么
263	is that we turn the high seas into a place which is essentially a free for all into a place where	我们把公海变成一个基本上对所有人都是自由的地方变成一个
264	we don't allow many extractive activities at all we don't really need to exploit the high seas	我们不容许很多采掘活动我们不需要开采公海
265	people are not people are nutritionally dependent on fishing but people who are nutritionally	人们不是靠捕鱼为生,而是靠捕鱼为生
266	dependent on fishing are generally fishing quite close to their coast they're not fishing several	依赖捕鱼一般在离海岸很近的地方捕鱼他们不捕鱼
267	miles out to see where it's very expensive to travel because of fuel costs so i think we have	远走高飞的路程来看旅行费太高了因为燃料费所以我想我们有
268	an opportunity to think differently about the governance of the high seas in a way that could	以不同方式思考公海治理的机会
269	allow the ocean's ecosystems to recover surprisingly quickly maybe even within within a single human	让海洋的生态系统迅速恢复甚至可以在人类内部
270	generation okay so that's what i had to say now i look forward to any comments that people might	所以现在我不得不说,我期待着人们的任何评论
271	great thank you so much um i think there there's a lot of room for questions and	非常感谢,嗯... 我想有很多问题可以问...
272	discussion and maybe even speculation so what we'll do now is we'll turn it over to	讨论甚至猜测我们现在要做的是把它交给
273	you guys in the audience for some q a you have two options you can either type out your question	你们在观众席上为一些 q a 有两种选择你可以输入你的问题
274	in the chat box on the bottom of your screen on your zoom and we'll be happy to	在屏幕底部的聊天盒里我们很乐意
275	go through those questions alternative you you can also raise your hand using the raise hand	你也可以用举手举起手
276	function also on the bottom of your zoom screen and i'd be happy to call on people to interact	功能也在您的缩放屏幕的底部我很乐意呼吁人们互动
277	directly with professor armstrong here and again especially if you're going to ask a question i do	直接在这里和臂力教授在一起特别是如果你要问我一个问题的话
278	it would be great if you could turn your video camera on just so that we we can talk in person	如果你能打开你的摄像机这样我们就能当面谈
279	and this is obviously a wonderful opportunity to be able to interact directly so yeah so feel	这显然是一个很好的机会能够直接互动
280	free to ask questions either through the chat box or with your raise hand function and i can	自由通过聊天框或用你的举手功能提问,我可以
281	unmute people who have questions and it does usually take people a while to	不要责怪那些有问题的人通常要花点时间
282	warm up i know so i'll i'll ask the first question which is if we were to just sort of go on what you	热身,我知道,所以我会问第一个问题是如果我们只是排序继续你
283	are there of sort of being able to enforce whatever agreement or treaty we have in place	能够执行我们现有的任何协议或条约
284	i mean obviously this is a question that's you know not just pertinent to the ocean but there are	我的意思是,很明显,这是一个问题你不仅知道与海洋有关,但有
285	lots of lots of issues that that have similar questions but sort of since you are a political	很多问题都有相似的问题但因为你是个政治人物
286	philosopher what are sort of the the ways that we would enforce any agreement that we do come	哲学家,什么是那种方式我们将执行任何协议我们来
287	{\fn黑体\fs22\bord1\shad0\3aHBE\4aH00\fscx67\fscy66\2cHFFFFFF\3cH808080}好极了 {\fn黑体\fs22\bord1\shad0\3aHBE\4aH00\fscx67\fscy66\2cHFFFFFF\3cH808080}好极了 {\fn黑体\fs22\bord1\shad0\3aHBE\4aH00\fscx67\fscy66\2cHFFFFFF\3cH808080}这样我就会看到世界海洋当局
288	authority over extractive activities in the ics as opposed to the situation now where constraints	对采掘活动的权力,而不是现在的制约因素。
289	are kind of optional companies can opt in or out by switching flag and avoid regulations that they	是一种可选的公司可以通过转换旗子选择进出并避免条例他们
290	don't like how might that come about i mean i'm very upfront in the book that this is a very	不喜欢那会有什么后果我是说我书中最先说
291	ambitious option and looks politically unlikely in some ways you might even say infeasible	野心勃勃的选项在政治上看起来不太可能你甚至可以说不可行
292	um my response to that i guess that worry would be would be twofold one would be	嗯,我的反应是,我想担心将是双重的
293	one thing that's really clearly unfeasible and unrealistic is the thought that we can just	有一件事,这是真的明显不可行和不现实的是,我们的想法
294	continue as we are on the ocean with the blue acceleration and hope that everything will be	继续,就像我们在海洋上一样蓝色加速,希望一切都会是
295	okay because it looks as though we're really pulling the rug under some of the ecological	好吧,因为它看起来像我们真的拉地毯在一些生态之下
296	underpinnings of life on earth in our engagement with the ocean so something has to change	在我们与海洋的接触中地球上生命的根基所以有些东西必须改变
297	so i suppose as with issues like climate change we're just waiting for it to be made clear enough	所以,我想像气候变化的问题我们只是等待它足够清楚
298	to powerful actors that something has to change and maybe there are even opportunities	对强大的角色来说某些东西必须改变也许甚至有机会
299	for for powerful actors to transition towards a more sustainable model so that's one thing i	让有实力的行动者向更可持续的模式过渡所以这是一件事
300	i would say another thing i would say is that sometimes things happen in politics that surprise	我会说另外一件事,我会说, 有时发生的事情在政治中,
301	us so the idea that an entire continent antarctica seventh continent would be governed	因此,整个大陆南极洲第七大陆的统治
302	in the way that it now is probably would have been called fantasy you know in the decades leading up	以现在的方式,它可能已经叫做幻想你知道在几十年前
303	to the antarctic treaty political observers probably would have said well of course powerful	政治观察家们可能会说
304	states will try to turn antarctica into their own territory of course they'll try to exploit	国家会试图把北极变成自己的领地当然,他们会试图利用
305	resources but we have this incredible truce called in in 1959 that still	1959年,我们取得了令人难以置信的休战协议
306	holds which i guess has to give us some optimism that we have this we're not entirely as political	我想应该让我们感到乐观的是,我们有这个我们并不完全像政治
307	scientists call it path dependent we're not always entirely locked into given ways of doing things	科学家称之为路径依赖我们并不总是完全被锁在特定的方式做事情
308	but we can sometimes arrive at critical junctures where options open up that were maybe not predicted	但是,我们有时可以到达紧要关头,那里可以提出一些可能没有预料到的选择。
309	by anyone looks like we do have a question in the chat how do you define ocean justice	被任何人看似我们在聊天时有一个问题你如何定义海洋正义
310	how many dimensions will you consider when you are considering ocean justice	当你考虑海洋正义时你会考虑多少方面
311	dimensions including distribution participation recognition etc	层面,包括分配参与的认可等
312	and could you also illustrate a little bit about what's the differences between ocean	能不能也说明一下海洋之间的区别?
313	inequality and ocean justice oh inequity and ocean justice yeah so so equity quality justice	不平等与海洋正义不公平与海洋正义
314	yes so that's a great question i don't really use the language in the book of distribution	是的,所以这是一个伟大的问题我并不真正使用语言在发行的书
315	participation recognition that's partly because i try not to introduce too much philosophical jargon	这部分是因为我尽量不引入太多哲学术语
316	if i can avoid it because i'm appealing to a wider readership and it's partly because i'm not entirely	如果我能避免它因为我吸引了更广泛的读者这部分是因为我不完全
317	convinced about the utility of that kind of threefold distinction or at least sometimes	确信这种三重区分或至少有时
318	i think thinking about issues in terms of distribution recognition participation can	我认为,思考分配确认参与方面的问题可以
319	lead us to think that we have these three separate tasks that we have to tick off and that they are	导致我们觉得我们有三个不同的任务,我们必须取消这些任务。
320	relatively independent of each other whereas of course many concrete struggles look to be	彼此相对独立,当然许多具体的斗争似乎
321	about what we might call distribution partly about recognition recognition and so on so what i do do	关于我们可能称之为发行部分关于承认,等等所以我做什么
322	in the book is i think the central one of the central chapters lists what i call seven	书中我想中央章节之一列出了我称之为七
323	{\fn黑体\fs22\bord1\shad0\3aHBE\4aH00\fscx67\fscy66\2cHFFFFFF\3cH808080}那么幸运的是 {\fn黑体\fs22\bord1\shad0\3aHBE\4aH00\fscx67\fscy66\2cHFFFFFF\3cH808080}我这里有本书
324	remind me of what they are right so the first one is is obvious and it just says we all have a stake	提醒我,他们是正确的所以第一个是明显的, 它只是说我们都有一个利害关系
325	in the ocean right so that doesn't necessarily say that we all own the ocean i don't adopt the	在海洋中的权利,所以这不一定说我们都拥有海洋我不采纳
326	language of common ownership but we all have a stake in what happens to the ocean because	共同拥有的语言,但海洋发生的事情与我们大家息息相关,因为
327	it's going to have such a big impact either way on our our fate right so that leads to a second	对我们的命运有如此巨大的影响这样一来就会导致第二次
328	principle which is a principle of democratic inclusion which looks i guess like a principle	原则是民主包容的原则,我想它似乎是一种原则
329	of participation on on the language of the question so i think it's really striking how	参与的语言问题, 所以我认为它真的令人惊讶如何
330	little we are ordinarily involved in ocean governance by and large we've left it to	我们一般很少参与海洋治理基本上我们把它留给了
331	international lawyers we don't have a vibrant democratic politics of the ocean but i think we	我们没有充满活力的海洋民主政治但是我想我们
332	could we could do with one the third principle says that the ocean is a space of rights and	第三个原则是海洋是权利空间
333	it sounds like a strange thing to say but if we have for example human rights they don't disappear	说起来很奇怪但如果我们有人权他们就不会消失
334	when we go out onto the ocean but actually in practice many of many of the very worst	但实际上,许多最糟糕的
335	practices in a contemporary global economy happen out at sea where people are far away from the	当代全球经济中的做法发生在人们远离海洋的海上。
336	protection of their fellow nationals unions or or lawyers so in the global fishing industry there	保护全球渔业中的本国国民工会或律师
337	are some really kind of horrendous abuses the fourth principle is sustainability and the	第四项原则是可持续性和
338	cautionary principle that essentially says that we we shouldn't be engaging in forms of	警告原则基本上说我们不应该参与形式
339	exploitation on the ocean that we have reasons to believe may be may be harmful and then the	我们有理由相信可能有害的海洋开发活动,然后
340	final three principles are fair benefit sharing so the spoils of the ocean in so far as it can be	最后三项原则是公平分享利益,这样海洋的战利品就可以了
341	exploited ought to be fairly shared fair burden sharing so if we need to tackle environmental	因此,如果我们需要解决环境问题,
342	problems out there at sea they also need to be fairly shared and finally fair transitions	海上的问题也需要公平分享,并最终实现公平的过渡。
343	so for example if we set up a marine protected area and this means that people can no longer	例如,如果我们建立一个海洋保护区,这意味着人们不再能够
344	engage in fishing there we can't just lead them to their fates right some very poor people are	在那里钓鱼,我们不能让他们找到他们的命运。
345	engaged in fishing and so we need to ease that transition for them so the question about	因此,我们需要为他们缓解这种转变,从而解决以下问题:
346	inequity inequality injustice finally i think i would say that the the account i describe it	不公平的不公正我终于会说我描述的账户
347	an account of justice but it's clearly an egalitarian account in that the value of	正义的描述,但它显然是一个平等的说法,因为价值
348	equality comes through strongly in many of those different dimensions that i talked about it looks	在许多我讨论过的不同层面,平等都得到了强烈的实现。
349	as though the ocean is becoming more and more of a space of inequality because of things like	似乎海洋越来越成为不平等的空间因为事物
350	geographical differences but also access to capital and i really believe that we ought to	地理差异,但也有机会获得资本, 我真的认为我们应该
351	be trying to turn things around so that the ocean genuinely serves everybody okay that was a really	试图改变一切让海洋真正为所有人服务
352	long answer but hopefully it answered your question well it was a long question so seems	答案很长但希望它能很好地回答你的问题这个问题似乎很长
353	fair to me um all right we've got a question from louis hi professor uh am i audible yes great	对我来说是公平的,好吧,我们有一个问题从Louis Hi教授... ...
354	okay um so first i would like to thank you for a wonderful sharing and it's pretty informative	好吧,嗯,所以首先,我想谢谢你的精彩分享,这是相当丰富的信息
355	so um my question is um since you have mentioned about the geographical difference and	所以,嗯,我的问题是,嗯,因为你已经提到地理差异和
356	um those inequality that might be difficult for us to you know sort of construct a	嗯,那些不平等对我们来说可能很难你知道这种构建
357	like a ocean and politic political system or like a legal system to monitor a tragedy of common	像海洋和政治政治制度或像法律制度监视一个共同的悲剧
358	so um i mean i like one of the point that i want to brought up is that like since water or like	所以,嗯,我的意思是,我喜欢的一个要点我想提起的是, 是这样的,因为水或喜欢
359	is like flowing that like the resources are not constantly staying at one like sort of location	就像是流淌着资源不会一直停留在一个地方
360	so like if the fish if the fishes are immigrating so how should we allocate	所以,如果鱼如果鱼移民,我们应该如何分配
361	like the resources or like how should like the super national like uh supra national organizations	喜欢资源或喜欢如何喜欢超级国民像呃以上的国家组织
362	monitor those like flowing resources and if there's an um over exploitation or like a pollution from	监控那些像流动资源, 如果有一个嗯过开发或者像污染来自
363	one specific state how should we like judge the impact or like the um like the actual damage	具体来说,我们该如何判断影响或喜欢嗯像实际损害
364	from them and how should we like you know punish them so like you know due to the complexity of	我们该如何希望你知道惩罚他们就像你知道,因为复杂
365	the ocean like how like i mean my question is like which sort of political system can	我的问题是什么样的政治制度可以
366	actually effectively you know sort of address this problem okay thank you that's a great question	其实,你知道某种解决这个问题好吧,谢谢你这是一个伟大的问题
367	um so one of the issues with a world where something like 40 percent of the ocean	嗯,所以一个问题与一个世界东西约40%的海洋
368	falls into states exclusive economic zones is that well we might think that system would work	我们也许认为这个制度会有效
369	very well for resources that stay where they are right so um you know fossil fuels on the	对资源来说非常好资源就在那里所以你知道化石燃料
370	seabed find the system might work they're not they're not moving across borders	海底发现系统可能有用它们不会越过边界
371	but things like fish as you say of course do move across borders so even within the the current	但是像鱼一样的东西,当然是跨越国界的所以即使在现在
372	framework of the united nations convention on the law of the sea we do see the later edition	《联合国海洋法公约》框架
373	of a framework that spent that's meant to govern what get called kind of straddling stocks so fish	用来治理所谓的跨界种群的
374	that move from one state's exclusive economic zone to another state's but it's not entirely	从一个国家的专属经济区转移到另一个国家,但并不完全
375	satisfactory um it hasn't i think entirely tackled the problem um where you have a kind of well maybe	满意了,嗯,我认为它还没有完全解决问题,嗯,你有一个一种好,也许
376	maybe this is too strong but you seem to have something like a kind of prisoner's dilemma where	也许这太强烈了但你似乎有类似囚犯的困境
377	you know one state knows that if it doesn't exploit fish that move between the boundaries	你知道,一个国家知道,如果它不利用鱼在边界之间移动
378	of state than the other state will um so how would my proposals deal with this so i don't	我的提议怎么处理,所以我不要
379	think i have a total solution um because some of these questions are very practical questions	我觉得我有一个完全的解决办法... ...因为有些问题很实际
380	and i'm thinking at a level of kind of broad design principles i think if we had a world	我在想某种广义的设计原则如果我们有一个世界
381	ocean authority on the whole of the high seas this would be an advance on the high seas at least	整个公海的海洋管理机构至少是公海上的一个进步。
382	because what we currently have is this patchwork of these regional fisheries management organizations	因为我们目前看到的是这些区域渔业管理组织的拼凑
383	and they are peculiar organizations because some of them govern fish in particular areas	他们是独特的组织,因为有些组织管理着特定地区的鱼类
384	and some of them govern particular kinds of fish and some of them overlap and it's a strange um	有些是管理着特殊种类的鱼有些是重叠的这很奇怪
385	patchwork with with gaps i think that system is clearly not working and we could see some really	与漏洞拼凑在一起我认为这个系统显然不起作用我们可以看到一些真的
386	um kind of tragic outcomes where individual states veto what could be really useful	那种悲剧性的结果个别国家否决哪些可能真正有用的
387	conservation measures on the high seas so for example um i talked about antarctica so the	公海上的养护措施,比如说,我讲到了南极洲
388	continent of antarctica is governed by the antarctic treaty system but the waters around	南极洲大陆受南极条约制度管辖但周围的水域
389	antarctica have been the site for some measures some some attempts to create what could be the	南极洲是采取一些措施的场所,有些是试图创造出什么可能
390	world's biggest marine protected areas and i think one of those efforts succeeded but was much smaller	世界上最大的海洋保护区我认为其中一项努力取得了成功但规模小得多
391	than originally intended and another effort to create what would have been the world's biggest	以及创造世界最大
392	marine protected area was just vetoed right by by one by one party was russia as it happens	海洋保护区刚刚被一方否决俄羅斯方面
393	so we have a a framework where states just seem to have excessive power to call the shots about	因此,我们有一个框架, 国家似乎有过度的权力点燃
394	what's going to what's going to take place asking states to give up that power is clearly difficult	要求各州放弃权力显然很困难
395	right um we know this this is the reason why in climate governance we have you know a paris	我们知道这是为什么在气候治理中,你认识一个巴黎
396	that sets targets that doesn't really have enforcement um i i don't i'm not um i'm not	设定的目标并不真正有执法...
397	foolish enough to imagine that states will just happily sign up to enforcement mechanisms	蠢到可以想象到,各国会欣然加入执行机制
398	out of the goodness of their hearts it may well be that we have to see um more and more environmental	从他们的善良的心, 很可能是,我们必须看到嗯,越来越多的环境
399	crises growing evidence that existing ocean politics institutions are are not working before	越来越多的证据表明,现有的海洋政治机构以前没有发挥作用。
400	we see the kind of critical mass necessary for states to agree to bind themselves in this way	我们看到各国同意以这种方式约束自己所必需的临界质量
401	so in short i don't really have the answer to that big political worry i think it may well be the case	简言之,我对政治的担忧并没有什么答案,我认为很可能是这样
402	that we fail right um but i think sometimes all that the the philosopher can do is at least to	我们失败了,嗯,但我觉得有时哲学家可以做的至少是
403	describe what a better solution would look like and to try to do the the hard work of persuading	描述更好的解决办法是什么样子,并努力说服
404	ordinary citizens that this is important and they should lobby their politicians um i wish	普通公民认为这很重要他们应该游说他们的政治家我希望
405	i had a magic wand that would convince everyone that this is going to happen politically but	我有一个神奇的魔杖可以让大家相信这会发生在政治方面但是
406	i'm you know i'm an optimist to a degree but not to a not to a foolish degree i don't think great	и笵и琌蔼砍 иぃ谋眔次
407	thank you um anybody has any more questions please feel free to keep them coming i guess um	谢谢,还有谁有问题要问请随意让它们来
408	i guess one of the big questions is sort of who are the kind of key stakeholders at play here who	我想其中一个大问题就是谁才是关键利益相关者
409	have the power to uh influence right so there are certain nation states obviously um that have have	有权影响,所以有某些民族国家显然,嗯,有
410	the economic and political power but you know are there other entities that that can play a role	经济和政治权力,但你知道还有其他实体可以发挥作用
411	or should play a role and and i guess even like just to kind of clarify like who exactly are the	或者应该扮演一个角色我想甚至可以澄清一下
412	like powerful nation states that that we really need to sort of make sure we're influencing	像强国说,我们真的需要排序确保我们正在影响
413	sure so um i mean we could think about that in different ways we could think about the countries	当然,嗯,我的意思是,我们可以思考以不同的方式我们可以思考的国家
414	that just have very large exclusive economic zones so there we're talking about russia because it's	那只是拥有非常大的专属经济区所以我们在谈论俄罗斯,因为它
415	just huge um but also countries like france the uk the u.s australia and new zealand and those	只是巨大的,但也有国家像法国 uk,澳洲,新的狂热和那些
416	mainly have huge exclusive economic zones because they still own these islands you know dotted	主要是有巨大的专属经济区因为他们仍然拥有这些岛屿你知道点
417	throughout the the atlantic and pacific oceans in terms of the countries which are really kind of	从真正属于大西洋和太平洋
418	powerfully invested in the ocean economy and industries like fishing then we would also talk	大力投资海洋经济和渔业,然后我们再谈
419	about countries like the uk the u.s france but also china south korea japan we might also think	我们也许也认为,
420	about corporations um so there are some scholars in sweden led by henrik ostablom i think who've	关于公司,嗯,所以有一些学者在sweden 由Henrik ostablom领导我认为谁曾经
421	some really interesting work on what they call keystone corporations within the ocean economy so	一些非常有趣的工作他们称之为关键公司在海洋经济所以,
422	if we take the different ocean industries if you like things like fish farming fishing fossil fuels	如果你喜欢鱼养殖化石燃料
423	and so on in all of these cases there are roughly 10 corporations that have about a 50 percent market	在所有这些案件中,大约有10家公司拥有50%的市场。
424	share or approaching 50 market share they're slightly different corporations in each case of	或接近50个市场份额它们在每一情况下都略有不同
425	but but there's a kind of um a strong pattern of power that these organizations have in many	但有种嗯强大的权力模式这些组织在许多
426	industries now we might think that that means it's going to be hard to achieve change because those	现在,我们可能认为这意味着很难实现变革因为这些
427	corporations are going to be powerful they're going to exert political influence but it might	公司会很强大,它们会施加政治影响但也许
428	it can also mean that if we can lean on them in the right way we can really make a difference	也可以意味着,如果我们能以正确的方式依靠它们,我们就能真正发挥作用
429	so for example if you take an issue like you know the exploitation and abuse that	例如,如果你把一个问题比如你知道剥削和虐待
430	fishermen can suffer out there on the high seas there may well be considerable potential for	渔民可能在公海上受苦,很可能有相当大的潜力。
431	consumer campaigns to target those those 10 keystone corporations which have an amazing	消费者运动的目标 10个关键公司有惊人的
432	information base if they really wanted to ensure that their supply chains were slavery free for	如果它们真的希望确保它们的供应链是无奴役的,那么它们就应该建立信息库。
433	example they probably could and so i think there is an opportunity there for concerned consumers to	比如说他们也许可以所以我认为有种机会让关心的消费者
434	say what are you doing what are you doing to make sure can you guarantee to me that no one has been	告诉我你在做什么为了保证你能向我保证没有人是
435	abused in the supply chain in putting this fish on my plate so sometimes i think the the economic	在供应链中被滥用把这条鱼在我的盘子里所以有时候我觉得经济
436	concentrations within some of these industries makes it easier to to make a difference because	其中一些行业的浓度使改变更为容易,因为
437	these corporations they don't want a bad reputation so so then that can produce some some openings	这些公司不想要一个坏名声这样就可以创造一些机会
438	yeah um that's great um i guess the follow-up to that then is i think obviously the ocean is	是啊,嗯,这是伟大的,嗯,我想后续的,然后是我认为明显的海洋是
439	very big place and there's a you know we're we're mostly on land so we have no idea what's going	非常大的地方,有一个你知道我们大部分在陆地上所以我们不知道是怎么回事
440	out there so can you sort of raise the red flag on some of the more maybe obscure issues that	在那里,你可以有点升起红旗在一些也许更模糊的问题
441	maybe we we aren't aware of that we should be aware of um you know i think we're all	也许我们不知道我们应该知道嗯,你知道,我想我们都
442	you know somewhat aware of overfishing and um you know deep ocean kind of trawling and things	你知道一些过度捕捞和嗯你知道深海拖网捕捞之类的东西
443	like that but are there other kind of key things that we're not thinking about that	像那样,但是还有其他关键的东西我们没有想到
444	or that just don't get the the typical media attention that that should be sure so um maybe	或者,只是不得到典型的媒体关注这应该是肯定的,也许
445	i'll give a negative and a positive story um so in terms of the negative story one of the big	我会给一个负面和正面的故事嗯,从负面的故事来看,一个大
446	eye-openers for me in researching and writing the book was the situation that that fishers can face	我研究和写书的开眼器是渔民可以面对的情况
447	out there on the high seas um and even within the exclusive economic zones of some relatively	在公海上甚至在一些相对
448	wealthy countries so there are some horrifying stories that i relate in the book of of modern	富裕国家所以我在现代的书里提到了一些可怕的故事
449	slavery and workers being beaten and even killed bodies thrown overboard um according to many	奴隶制度和工人遭到殴打,甚至杀害尸体。
450	empirical scholars the kind of epicenter of exploitation and abuse within the ocean economy	经验学者对海洋经济中剥削和虐待的集中程度
451	is around the gulf of thailand where there are these vessels that stay out to sea for for long	在泰兰的海湾附近有这些船只长期停留在海上
452	periods of time scooping up fish to be fed to fish farms that produce prawns or shrimp depending	将鱼喂给养虾或虾的养鱼场的时间
453	on where you're from but also in the the coasts off countries like new zealand and and scotland	你从哪里来, 还是在海岸外的国家, 像新的狂热,和Scotland
454	there have been companies found to be engaged in in modern slavery which is which is quite striking	有一些公司被发现从事现代奴役,这非常引人注目。
455	because i think most of the the citizens of those countries would be kind of horrified to to hear	因为我认为那些国家的大部分公民都会惊恐地听到
456	um there have been some some success stories there too so for example one thing that new	嗯,有一些成功的故事在那里,所以举例来说,有一件事,新的
457	zealand did which was really interesting is of course if you have an exclusive economic zone	热衷于做这个真正有趣的是当然,如果你有一个专属经济区
458	you get to decide who fishes in your exclusive economic zone and this does give you the power	你可以决定谁在专属经济区捕鱼这确实给了你权力
459	to insist that fishing outfits uphold reasonable labor standards and the way that new zealand did	坚持捕鱼服必须坚持合理的劳动标准以及新狂热的作风
460	this was simply to say that no one can fish in new zealand waters unless their vessels are flagged	这仅仅是说,没有人可以在新的热水中捕鱼,除非他们的船被标记。
461	with new zealand and we can therefore inspect them and ensure that labor standards are applied	有了新的热情,我们就可以检查他们,确保劳动标准得到实施。
462	that isn't necessarily the only way to get at that problem but it does show that where there's a kind	这不一定是唯一能解决问题的方法但是它确实表明那里有种
463	of political will we can make a difference to some of the most vulnerable people in the world	能够改变世界上一些最脆弱的人
464	and maybe i'll i'll tell a positive story so um one thing i learned in the book is that	也许我会说一个正面的故事所以我从书里学到一件事
465	there are some you know amazing creatures that live out there on the ocean	有些你认识的神奇生物生活在海里
466	and in some sense the ocean is really home to them rather than to us people don't really live	从某种意义上说,海洋是它们真正的家园而不是我们真正的生命
467	at sea but but many many animals do and we're learning more and more about the incredible	但很多动物都这样我们越来越了解不可思议的事
468	roles that some of those organisms play so i think everyone on the planet owes a great debt	有些生物扮演的角色我想地球上的每一个人都欠了大债
469	of gratitude to plankton that we are not really we don't really talk about very much but um if	感谢浮游生物,我们不是真的我们真的不谈论很多,但嗯,如果
470	it wasn't for the the phytoplankton the plant plankton we wouldn't be breathing our atmosphere	不是浮游植物而是浮游植物我们不会呼吸我们的大气
471	would just be you know full of carbon the zooplankton or animal plankton is the the bottom	你会知道满是碳浮游动物或动物浮游生物是底部
472	{\fn华文楷体\fs20\bord1\shad1\1cHE0E0E0\2cH000000}所有海洋食物的網絡中也有鲸魚等生物 {\fn华文楷体\fs20\bord1\shad1\1cHE0E0E0\2cH000000}所以我們現在知道
473	marine biologists call ecosystem engineers they have a huge impact on the ecosystem so um to put	海洋生物学家称生态系统工程师对生态系统有巨大影响所以,嗯...
474	it somewhat crudely so the ocean is an interesting ecosystem because it has lots of organic matter	海洋是一个有趣的生态系统因为它有很多有机物
475	but most of the organic matter over time falls down to the sea floor	但随着时间的推移,大部分有机物都落在海底
476	where it can't sustain life at higher levels where there is light but whales have this incredible	在那里,它无法维持生命在更高的水平,有光但鲸鱼有这种不可思议的。
477	kind of churning effect because whales spend some time at the surface because they breathe	鲸鱼在海面上呆了一段时间因为他们呼吸
478	like we do but they also go down to the deeps and um churn up nutrients so one thing they do is they	就像我们一样,但是他们也下到深处和嗯,燃烧养分所以他们做的一件事是他们
479	they eat enormous quantities of things like plankton or krill and they they poop right	他们吃大量的东西像浮游生物或磷虾, 他们便便右
480	which spurs the growth of huge amounts of phytoplankton and so it looks as though	这刺激了大量浮游植物的生长所以看起来
481	if we wanted to tackle climate change lots of scientists have suggested that maybe we need to	如果我们想应对气候变化许多科学家都建议也许我们需要
482	engage in some kind of high-tech system of geoengineering at the ocean they're sprinkling	在海洋从事某种高科技的地球工程系统他们正在沉没
483	sprinkling iron filings in the ocean so that it can absorb more more carbon or whatever but	沉积在海洋中的铁层这样它就能吸收更多的碳或别的
484	actually simply ending whaling could have a tremendously positive effect in terms of locking	实际上只要结束捕鲸就能在锁捕鲸方面产生巨大的积极影响
485	up carbon because whales they spur the growth of phytoplankton but they also lock away literally	因为鲸鱼刺激了浮游植物的生长但也从字面上锁定
486	tons of carbon in their own bodies and when they die they fall to the deep sea bed where that carbon	他们死后会掉到深海的海底深海底的碳
487	stays safely for the years or even centuries so that's a positive story i think of something	这几年甚至几个世纪,我都会想出一个积极的故事
488	i learned in the book that um you know go whales whales are wonderful i don't know that's that's	我从书里得知鲸鱼是很棒的我不知道这就是
489	very interesting uh we've got some more questions here uh okay so thank you for professor chris so	很有趣,呃,我们有一些更多的问题在这里嗯,好吧,所以谢谢你的 Chris教授,所以
490	so my question is uh about your the book we are more about the the the conception about	所以,我的问题是嗯关于你的书,我们更关于的概念
491	uh environmental justice or ecological justice sometimes i found people just use this kind of	嗯,环境正义或生态正义有时我发现人们只是使用这种
492	few conceptions together so i want to if you can help us to distinguish those two kinds of	所以我想请你帮我们分辨这两类
493	conceptions thank you okay sure so i think people use those terms in different ways but	谢谢你,当然,所以我想人们使用这些术语的方式不同,但
494	as far as i understand it the the general distinction says that ecological justice	就我所知,一般的区别说生态正义
495	tells us how in a sense the world ought to be what we might owe to you know how we might have	告诉我们,从某种意义上说,世界应该是什么我们可能欠你,你知道,我们可能拥有
496	to behave in relation to ecosystems um we may have duties to animals maybe even to plants right so	我们也许对动物有义务甚至植物
497	these are questions of ecological justice but then environmental justice points us to questions	这些是生态正义的问题,但环境正义却指给我们问题
498	about how we share the benefits and burdens of that between human beings right so um at least	我们如何在人与人之间分享利益和负担
499	if you look at the work of people like david schlossberg i think that's the way that he's	如果你看像David Schlossberg这样的人的工作我觉得他就是这样
500	using the term so environmental justice is in a sense the social justice questions that flow	因此,环境正义在某种意义上是社会公正问题。
501	from our need to protect the environment which human beings need to change their behavior in	因为我们需要保护环境人类需要改变他们的行为
502	ways who ought to bear the costs and ecological justice is about the big questions of you know	谁应该承担成本和生态正义是关于大问题你知道
503	what our kind of wider stewardship obligations might be towards the natural world i don't know	我们那种更广泛的管理义务可能是对自然世界我不知道
504	if that rings true to the way that you you've seen the terms used so i think um in the book	如果这与你所看到的术语相符那么我想在书里
505	i am raising both kinds of question because for example i have a chapter which is about	我提出两种问题,因为举例来说,我有一章是关于
506	the rights of marine animals which where i talk about whales and dolphins but really i'm just	海洋动物的权利在那里我谈论鲸鱼和海豚但实际上我只是
507	talking about whales and dolphins as an example of the way in which we might think about the rights	以鲸鱼和海豚为例说明我们如何思考权利
508	possessed by the creatures that live in the sea so i try and make a case that i hope is relatively	{\fn华文楷体\fs16\1cHE0E0E0}所以我试着做一个我希望是相对
509	uncontroversial that just in the way that we have human rights because we have various interests	毫无争议地说,我们有人权,因为我们有各种利益
510	then whales and dolphins also ought to have a key set of rights such as the right not to be imprisoned	那么鲸鱼和海豚也应该有一套关键的权利,例如不被囚禁的权利
511	or tortured or needlessly killed so those are going to be questions of ecological justice if	或遭受酷刑或不必要的杀害,因此,如果
512	i understand right okay and then those are going to throw up challenges of environmental justice	我理解,好吧,然后这些会吐出挑战环境正义
513	when we come to allocate the costs of protecting the environment so you know if we think that a	当我们来分配保护环境的费用时你知道如果我们认为
514	an indigenous whaling community in canada should not be engaged in whaling we have really pressing	在加拿大的一个土著捕鲸社区不应该参与捕鲸我们真的迫不得已
515	questions of environmental justice how do we help them to preserve their lifestyles in a way	我们如何帮助他们以某种方式保持生活方式?
516	which doesn't do damage to these really important cogs in the the broader ocean ecosystem so i do	它不会破坏这些真正重要的鳕鱼在更广的海洋生态系统所以我做
517	talk about both um i think i think they are really important i suppose the way i think about the	说两句我觉得他们都很重要我想我想
518	relationship between them is that we probably need an account of ecological justice first	他们之间的关系是,我们可能需要生态正义的第一。
519	that then throws up questions of environmental justice that we have to we have to deal with later	然后提出我们以后必须处理的环境公正问题
520	right thank you for asking that question and that's i think a very good clarification	好的谢谢你问了这个问题我认为这是一个很好的澄清
521	um luis do you have another question uh yeah i got a follow-up for um for the professor	嗯,Luis,你有另一个问题嗯,是的,我有一个后续嗯,为教授
522	so um if we're establishing a ocean political system should we um consider those landlocked	所以,嗯,如果我们建立海洋政治系统,我们应该考虑那些内陆
523	country to contribute to the ocean protections or like get involved in this system since um they're	国家贡献海洋保护或喜欢参与这个系统,因为嗯,他们是
524	not that like like i mean they're not contributing to the pollution of the ocean so um should we	我意思是他们不会污染海洋所以我们应该
525	consider them into like the legal system as well yeah okay that's a really interesting question so	把他们像法律系统一样看待,是的,这是个很有趣的问题
526	i mean ever since the convention on the law of the sea came into force in 1994 we've had this	自从1994年《海洋法公约》生效以来我们一直有这个
527	question about what the role of landlocked countries is in the in ocean governance um there	关于内陆国家在海洋治理中的作用的问题
528	are some kind of gestures in the convention that say things like if some states have spare capacity	是公约中某种姿态说的东西,比如如果一些国家有剩余的能力
529	within their exclusive economic zones maybe they should offer that capacity to geographically	在其专属经济区内,也许它们应当提供这种能力,以在地理上
530	disadvantaged countries which is kind of the the language that's used for landlocked countries	内陆国家所使用的语言
531	but that's not really a binding obligation and nothing really happens right so when	但这不是一个真正的约束性义务没有什么真正发生
532	countries that can't fully exploit their exclusive economic zones in a sense hire out that capacity	无法从某种意义上充分利用其专属经济区的国家
533	to other countries it's not to landlocked countries it's to generally to you know wealthy	对其他国家来说,不是内陆国而是一般的富裕国家
534	um so they've never really had a real role in ocean governance but i do think that they	嗯,所以他们从来没有真正在海洋治理的角色但我确实认为他们
535	ought to so you know if we think that the ocean is is key to life on earth and if it plays this	应该让你知道如果我们认为海洋是地球上生命的关键如果它演奏这个
536	foundational role in supporting all kinds of ecosystem functions that we depend on then	在支持我们依赖的各类生态系统功能方面的基础作用
537	people in landlocked countries have a stake just as anyone else does so i think one question that	内陆国家的人民和任何其他人一样有利害关系,因此我认为有一个问题:
538	your question was pointing out was whether we really ought to see them having a duty to	你的问题是我们是否真的应该看到他们有责任
539	to pitch in and help meet the costs of protecting the ocean	帮助支付保护海洋的费用
540	and i think generally speaking my approach to this kind of question is that two kinds of	我认为,一般来说,我处理这种问题的方法是,
541	moral principles seem to be relevant there so what i get what tends to get called the	道德原则似乎与此相关所以我会得到什么
542	principle and the capacity principle so the contribution principle says you know are you	原则与能力原则所以贡献原则说你知道你
543	causing the environmental problems that we have to deal with at sea if you are then other things	造成环境问题,我们必须在海上处理如果你是其他的事情
544	being equal you probably have a duty to help solve those problems and it is possible that a	你可能有义务帮助解决这些问题,而且有可能
545	landlocked country i mean if you think about a country like switzerland it's probably got	内陆国家,我的意思是,如果你想到一个国家像Switzerland,它可能有
546	pretty high emissions per capita in terms of carbon emissions and so it probably is having	以碳排放量计算,人均排放量相当高,因此可能
547	impact on the ocean environment so on that kind of model it would stand	影响海洋环境的这种模式
548	yeah it we we might well plausibly think that it has a duty to to help meet the cost of ocean	是的,我们也许可以合理地认为,它有义务帮助支付海洋的费用。
549	protection and of course in terms of capacity as well it's a very wealthy country so so i really	保护,当然,在能力方面,它也是一个非常富裕的国家所以我真的
550	don't think we should rule out that landlocked countries can have duties to to pick up the tab	不要认为我们不应该排除内陆国家可以有义务拿起标签
551	for some of these environmental problems if they contribute to those problems and if they have the	某些环境问题,如果造成这些问题,如果它们具有
552	ability to to help us deal with those problems but also if there are benefits that could be	有能力帮助我们解决这些问题,但如果有好处的话
553	taken from the ocean legitimately then i think they ought to be much more integrated it's a	合法地从海洋中取走我认为它们应该更融合
554	really interesting question exactly how that could happen so you know landlocked countries	非常有趣的问题确切地说,这怎么可能发生让你知道内陆国家
555	我觉得Bolivia一直在和Chile讨论
556	whether it could have a kind of land bridge to the sea that would allow it to access the sea	它能否拥有通往海洋的陆地桥梁让它能进入海洋
557	hasn't really got anywhere but it's it's a really interesting political question	还没有真正得到什么但这是一个非常有趣的政治问题
558	Okay, so I hope some of that is relevant to your question.	好吧,所以我希望一些与你的问题有关。
559	Great.	不错
560	Well, I think we are just about at time.	嗯,我想我们只是时间。
561	Maybe if you have any sort of last kind of key ideas that you want to make sure we take away from our time together, of course to read the book, but	也许如果你有任何最后的关键想法你想确保我们从我们的时间在一起, 当然阅读这本书,但
562	Read the book, of course, but I think what I really want to do with the book is to convince people that we ought to have an ocean politics right because sometimes we have this ocean law and ocean governance, but people see the ocean as	当然,读这本书,但我想我真正想做的是说服人们,我们应该有一个海洋政治正确的, 因为有时我们有这种海洋法和海洋治理, 但人们把海洋看作是
563	not being particularly important on a day to day basis they have other concerns, understandably, but I think I want to bring home to people that how the government, how the ocean is governed.	但我想让人们明白政府如何治理海洋,
564	Is it going to be really consequential for lots of people.	这会对很多人造成后果吗?
565	So we ought to be invested in it and I think we have a right to be involved in ocean government.	所以我们应该投入到其中我认为我们有权参与海洋政府
566	All right, well thank you.	好吧,谢谢你。
567	Absolutely.	当然
568	I think you made that point, very clear today.	我认为你今天说得很清楚
569	So thank you for that.	谢谢你们
570	Thank you all for attending.	谢谢大家的出席。
571	As per tradition with the Yale Center Beijing, we ask that everybody turn on the cameras because we like to take a group picture at the very end, as if we were all attending together.	按照耶鲁北京中心的传统,我们要求每个人都打开摄像机,因为我们喜欢在最后拍一张集体照片,好像我们都一起参加。
572	And then I will also unmute everybody, so that everybody can thank Professor Armstrong.	然后,我也会对所有人发泄出来, 这样每个人都可以感谢阿姆斯特朗教授。
573	Thank you, Professor.	谢谢你,教授
574	Thank you.	谢谢
575	Thank you very much.	谢谢
576	Thank you.	谢谢
577	Thank you everybody and have a good rest of your day.	谢谢各位,祝你今天愉快

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