被忽略的二战真相：决定现代亚洲的，不只是胜负！剑桥著名中国近

被忽略的二战真相：决定现代亚洲的，不只是胜负！剑桥著名中国近代史学家新作《血色黎明》

发布于 2026-07-22 · 时长 1:01:16

字幕摘录

时间	英文	中文
0:04	Hello everybody and thank you for joining wherever you are in the USA, London, Cambridge,	大家好,谢谢你们无论你们在美国、伦敦、剑桥
0:12	Beijing or anywhere else.	北京或别处.
0:13	Thank you very much for coming to this talk.	非常感谢你来到这个演讲。
0:18	RSBJ很幸运
0:20	and proud to be able to present a talk between Hans van der Ven and David Rennie about Hans's	并自豪地介绍汉斯范德文和大卫·雷尼关于汉斯的谈话
0:29	new book, Blood Dawn, which I cannot recommend too highly.	新书《血色黎明》我无法高估
0:36	It's a gripping account of how	这是关于如何
0:40	World War II in Asia changed world history.	亚洲二战改变了世界历史.
0:45	Just a quick note before we start, please	开场前请速记
0:48	post any questions you have in the chat function, addressed to everyone, where the moderator	将您在聊天功能中遇到的任何问题发布给每个人,其中主持人

展开字幕全文（1019 条）

序号	英文	中文
1	Hello everybody and thank you for joining wherever you are in the USA, London, Cambridge,	大家好,谢谢你们无论你们在美国、伦敦、剑桥
2	Beijing or anywhere else.	北京或别处.
3	Thank you very much for coming to this talk.	非常感谢你来到这个演讲。
4	RSBJ很幸运
5	and proud to be able to present a talk between Hans van der Ven and David Rennie about Hans's	并自豪地介绍汉斯范德文和大卫·雷尼关于汉斯的谈话
6	new book, Blood Dawn, which I cannot recommend too highly.	新书《血色黎明》我无法高估
7	It's a gripping account of how	这是关于如何
8	World War II in Asia changed world history.	亚洲二战改变了世界历史.
9	Just a quick note before we start, please	开场前请速记
10	post any questions you have in the chat function, addressed to everyone, where the moderator	将您在聊天功能中遇到的任何问题发布给每个人,其中主持人
11	David Rennie will pick them up or we will help.	David Rennie会去接他们或者我们来帮忙
12	I think we're ready to start, that's	我想我们准备好了,这是
13	right.	对
14	David, over to you please.	大卫请过来
15	Well, thank you very much, Alan.	谢谢你,艾伦
16	It's a great pleasure	很高兴见到你
17	and great to be back talking to the RSBJ membership.	很高兴能回到RSBJ成员身边
18	I have fond memories.	我有美好的回忆
19	I've talked to you from	我跟你们谈过了
20	the economist offices in London and a real honour to be hearing from Professor van der	伦敦的经济学家办公室, 并非常荣幸地听到范德教授
21	Ven about his really excellent book and he's one of the great distinguished historians	文说他的书非常优秀他是伟大的历史学家之一
22	of China at Cambridge University and has written this really important book that I think is	在剑桥大学写了一本非常重要的书我认为
23	not just a kind of a corrective for a lot of the sort of the very Eurocentric accounts	不仅仅是一种纠正很多类型的以欧洲为中心的账户
24	of history that we have for World War II, but also, and we'll get to this later on in	我们为二战拥有的历史, 但是,我们以后再谈
25	the conversation, has some really important observations about kind of questions that	谈话中,对一些问题有一些非常重要的看法
26	arise about how Asia perceives this, how Asia lived this, that are really relevant in the	亚洲对此的看法、亚洲如何生活,
27	modern day.	现代时代。
28	So it's one of those kind of excellent works of history that we need to be reading	所以,这是那种优秀的历史作品之一我们需要阅读
29	to understand today's world and to understand where we perhaps are, you know, prisoners	了解今天的世界了解我们可能在哪里,你知道,囚犯
30	of our own assumptions.	我们自己的假设。
31	And I think it's really fantastic and it's really interesting to see	我觉得这真的太棒了很有趣看到
32	you make a note towards the end of the book, but literally just languages makes a difference.	在书的结尾写个字条但从字面上讲,语言就不同了
33	I'm sure this resonates with a lot of the people on this call who I'm sure have many	我敢肯定,这与很多人的共鸣在这个电话中,我肯定有很多
34	languages between them, but the fact that you have Dutch as well as English meant that	但是你们有荷兰语和英语意味着
35	you could go deeply into the archives of the Dutch East Indies and also your exquisite	你可以深入荷属东印度群岛的档案以及你的精致
36	kind of Chinese skills.	那种中国的技巧。
37	Again, you could go deeply into the kind of source materials.	再说一次,你可以深入到源材料中去。
38	And so I think in a world where we're all wondering whether AI is going to make all	所以我想在这样一个世界里我们都在想AI是否会让所有
39	of our kind of learning irrelevant, I for one am delighted to see someone making use	我很高兴有人利用我
40	of good old fashioned archival language skills.	古老的档案语言能力
41	And so I'd love to ask you really to sort	所以我想请你整理一下
42	of, for the audience, before I get to questions that I'm keen to put to you, could you just	对于观众来说在我问出我想问的问题之前你能...
43	give us a very brief sort of elevator pitch of what this book is about?	给我们一个非常简短的电梯投注这本书是什么?
44	If you bumped	如果你撞伤了
45	into someone in a bookshop and you saw them hovering near the non-fiction bestseller's	在书店的某个人你看见他们徘徊在非小说畅销书店附近
46	shelf, why should they take your book off the shelf?	他们为什么要把你的书从书架上拿走?
47	Right, thank you.	好的谢谢
48	Thank you, first of all, David, for chairing this discussion and of	首先,谢谢你,大卫, 主持这次讨论和
49	course also to Ellen and Melinda for organising it and to all of you for being here.	也敬爱伦和梅林达组织敬你们所有人
50	It's	这是
51	an absolute delight.	绝对的快乐。
52	In terms of one of the things you just said really resonated with	就你刚才说的其中一件事来说...
53	me and we'll talk about it later, but there is something, I think there's something dangerous	我和我们稍后再谈, 但有东西,我觉得有危险的东西
54	about Anglo parochialism and you see it more and more.	关于盎格鲁的宗派主义, 你越来越看到它。
55	And I see it in my Chinese students	我从我的中国学生那里看到
56	actually, the ones that I teach at Peking University.	实际上,那些我在北京大学教的。
57	We can talk about that later.	我们可以稍后再谈
58	But what is the book about?	但书的内容是什么?
59	Well, it is coverage of Asia during the Second World War, which	第二次世界大战期间的亚洲报道
60	I date from 1937, so the beginning of Japan's invasion of China south of the Great Wall,	我从1937年开始,所以日本在长城以南入侵中国的开始,
61	until the Bandung Conference.	直到万隆会议
62	And one reason I do so is because I really don't think that	我这样做的一个原因是因为我真的不认为
63	Japan's surrender in 1945, August 1945, was all that much of a turning point.	1945年日本投降,1945年8月,这完全是转折点.
64	Yes, it	对
65	was a turning point.	这是一个转折点。
66	Japan had to seize its operations.	日本不得不夺取其行动。
67	But across Asia, the fighting	但是在整个亚洲,战斗
68	continued.	继续。
69	And nobody can really prove this, I think.	我想没有人能证明这一点。
70	But whenever I say that the number	但每当我说那个号码
71	of people who died or starved to death between 1945 and 1955 was probably larger than between	在1945年至1955年期间死亡或饿死的人中,人数可能大于
72	1937 and 1945.	1937年和1945年合并.
73	That's right.	没错
74	And so you have this continuing violence.	所以你有这种持续的暴力。
75	And so Japan's surrender	日本也因此投降了,我们...
76	was important, but it didn't solve the issues that were at play in Asia in the Second World	但并没有解决亚洲在第二世界的问题
77	War.	战争
78	So I guess this is a somewhat bigger framework for saying, well, to understand	我想这是一个更大的框架来表示,嗯,理解
79	what was happening in Asia, you have to go back to the early 19th century, when first	在亚洲发生的事情,你必须回到19世纪初,
80	Britain and the Dutch, then later joined by the French and the Japanese and the Americans,	英国人和荷兰人,后来法国人和日本人以及美国人也加入了这个行列,
81	sort of created these territorial colonies.	某种程度上创造了这些领地。
82	And all the established monarchies, empires	和所有已确立的君主制,帝国
83	were finished around 1900, and China was the last one in 1912.	1900年前后完成,中国是1912年最后一个.
84	And the late 19th century of the	19世纪末
85	emergence of still very, like, substantive power, sort of independence movements, rebellions	仍然有如实质性权力独立运动叛乱
86	against the European colonialism.	反对欧洲殖民主义。
87	And these are then really activated in the Second World War.	这些在第二次世界大战中真的被激活了。
88	They see their chances to use the violence, the mayhem, the discord, sort of all these	他们看到了他们使用暴力的机会, 伤害,不和, 排序所有这些
89	global geopolitical order collapse.	全球地缘政治秩序崩溃。
90	And they see these opportunities to assert the kinds of	他们看到这些机会来断言这种
91	creative movements, the campaigns, the armies that will then allow them to reshape their societies	创造性运动,运动,军队让他们可以重塑社会
92	and put them on an entirely different course.	让他们走上一条完全不同的道路
93	So I really see this long Second World War	所以我真的看到了这场漫长的第二次世界大战
94	as an actual moment out of which Asia today emerged.	作为今天亚洲出现的实际时刻。
95	And I think the remembering of the	我认为对
96	Second World Wars is provide the origin stories of the nation states that now make up Asia.	第二次世界大战提供了现在构成亚洲的民族国家的起源故事。
97	And I	还有我
98	think that sense of they have a stronger hold on the imagination than Second World War does in	认为他们的想象力比第二次世界大战更强
99	Europe.	欧洲。
100	That's among the younger generation.	这是年轻一代中的一部分。
101	But the second reason I decided to go, and I've	但我决定去的第二个原因
102	written a lot about China during the Second World War, but I decided that actually to really	在第二次世界大战期间写了很多关于中国的报导但我决定
103	understand the Second World War, you need to have an Asian framing.	了解第二次世界大战, 你需要有一个亚洲框架。
104	And that's partly because,	部分原因是,
105	of course, Japan was an empire.	当然,日本是个帝国
106	And I think we can do a lot more still about how Japan conceived of	我想我们可以做更多关于日本如何设想
107	its empire, how they tried to remake the whole Asia in terms of its own.	他们试图重新创造整个亚洲
108	And just an example,	举个例子
109	they thought of Shanghai, but after they took all of Shanghai after 1941 as a nodal point in between	他们想到了上海但1941年之后他们占领了上海
110	Southeast Asia and Japan itself.	东南亚和日本本身.
111	Of course, that doesn't work in the end, and they change their	当然,这最终行不通, 他们改变了他们的
112	strategies again.	又是战略
113	But sort of this idea of Japanese government, Japanese military actively	但这种日本政府的想法日本军方很积极
114	thinking about how are we going to build this empire?	想想我们怎么建立这个帝国?
115	I think it's a really interesting	我觉得这很有趣
116	question, and it demands an Asian framework of thinking about it.	这需要亚洲的思考框架。
117	But also, Zhang Gaoshet	还有,张高石
118	was highly aware of what was happening in Asia and globally.	高度意识到亚洲和全球正在发生的事情。
119	And so were people like	人们也喜欢
120	Hiru and Gandhi in India, or Sukarno and Hatta and Sudhanshahri.	印度的希鲁和甘地,或苏卡诺和哈塔和苏德汉沙赫里.
121	And sort of all these things	和所有的东西
122	were interconnected.	它们是相互联系的。
123	And I think we often forget that the Second World War in Asia really began	我想我们常常忘记亚洲第二次世界大战真的开始
124	ever a collapse of united front movements.	统一战线运动的崩溃
125	Of course, one in China is very famous, but it was	当然,中国有一个很出名,但是
126	intimately linked to popular front governments in France, as well as in Spain.	与法国以及西班牙的大众前线政府紧密相连.
127	And then people give	然后人们给
128	these ideas of Asian linkages, but actually even global linkages.	这些亚洲联系的想法,但实际上甚至是全球联系。
129	So to get to a real global	所以去一个真正的全球
130	understanding of the Second World War, we need to have that Asian perspective, which essentially	对第二次世界大战的理解,我们需要有亚洲的观点,这基本上是
131	means yes, we will fight for our freedoms.	这意味着是的,我们将为自由而战。
132	We will fight Japan, but we also will fight Europeans.	我们将与日本作战,但我们也将与欧洲人作战.
133	And	还有
134	I think that's one way of moving beyond.	我认为那是超越范围的方法之一。
135	It's needed to move beyond a very Eurocentric framework.	这需要超越一个非常以欧洲为中心的框架。
136	And I sort of was really pushed to do this because of Brexit, when in Britain, at least,	我被逼得这么做是因为Brexit 至少在英国
137	the memories of the Second World War, and of course, especially Churchill, were so mobilised	第二次世界大战的记忆,当然,特别是丘吉尔, 是如此的动员
138	for a very limited, for Brexit.	对于一个非常有限的, 对于Brexit。
139	And I think there was a very limited understanding of the Second	我认为对第二修正案的理解非常有限
140	World War.	世界大战.
141	And that sort of is a broader point I'm trying to make is that in thinking about the	我试图提出一个更广泛的观点就是在思考
142	Second World War, we need to refresh our understandings of it, so that we can learn	第二次世界大战,我们需要更新我们对它的理解,以便我们可以学习
143	proper lessons from it that are not quite so confined.	从中吸取的教训并不十分有限。
144	I think our commemorations of the	我认为我们纪念
145	Second World War have become so solid, so unchallengeable.	第二次世界大战变得如此坚实,无可挑战。
146	By emphasising the very	通过强调
147	different Asian perspective on this, that might actually be helpful in us as we face a world that	不同的亚洲观点对此, 这实际上对我们有帮助当我们面对一个世界,
148	once again is in great disorder.	复次大乱.
149	We don't know where it's going.	我们不知道它要去哪里。
150	Of course, your job is to guide	当然,你的工作是指导
151	us through that.	我们通过这个。
152	But I think it's helpful to rethink what this was all about.	但我觉得重新思考这一切会有所帮助。
153	Fantastic.	厉害
154	So you've actually, it was one of the few positive things out of Brexit.	所以实际上,这是Brexit的少数积极因素之一。
155	So clearly it was so annoying	很明显很烦人
156	being a Dutchman living in Cambridge, watching advertisements with Spitfires and the White Cliffs	作为住在剑桥的荷兰人, 观看《喷火》和《白崖》的广告
157	of Dover, that you were moved to write this very brilliant book.	多佛,你被感动写这本非常优秀的书。
158	So to set the scene for people	所以,为人们设置场景
159	online, you make this very good point that the standard narrative, certainly where I am sitting	在网络上,你提出这个很好的观点标准叙事,当然我坐的地方
160	here in London, is that World War II is from 1939 to 1945.	伦敦是二战从1939年到1945年
161	But really D-Day in 1944 is the	但实际上1944年的D日
162	bookstop.	书站
163	And it's Churchill, and it's the Battle of Britain, and it's D-Day, and then	这是丘吉尔,这是不列颠战役, 这是D -日,然后
164	the fall of Berlin.	柏林的沦陷。
165	And it's a fundamentally anglophone story with walk-on parts for the	这基本上是个英语故事里面有徒步的零件
166	Soviet Union, the French and others.	苏联,法国等国.
167	And it's about a heroic fight against freedom.	并且是关于一场反抗自由的英勇斗争.
168	But very	不过非常
169	early on in the book, you make this really kind of brilliant observation that sort of took me by	在书的早期, 你做了这种真正的辉煌的观察那种带给我
170	surprise, that from the Asian standpoint, World War II actually looks like the European experience	令人惊讶的是,从亚洲的观点来看,二战实际上就像欧洲的经验
171	of World War I, by which you mean, if you're a European, certainly on the continent of Europe,	第一次世界大战,你是说, 如果你是一个欧洲人, 当然在欧洲大陆,
172	World War I was the war that ended three empires, the Austro-Hungarian, the Ottoman, and the Romanov	第一次世界大战是结束奥匈,奥斯曼,罗曼诺夫三个帝国的战争.
173	empire in Russia, and then gave birth to lots and lots of new nation-states around Eastern	在俄罗斯的帝国, 然后在东方诞生了许多新的民族国家
174	Southern Europe and in the Middle East.	南欧及中东.
175	And that that was the experience that Asia had of World	这就是亚洲在世界的经验
176	War II.	战争二.
177	Help us understand what you mean by that.	帮助我们理解你的意思
178	Right.	对
179	So as you say, at the time of the First	正如你说的,在第一次的时候
180	World War, you have three empires that disintegrate, and you get a new Europe emerging out of that,	世界大战,你有三个帝国瓦解,你得到一个新的欧洲从中,
181	a Europe of serious nation-states, strong nation-states.	a 欧洲有严肃的民族国家,有强壮的民族国家。
182	And of course, at the time,	当然,当时
183	that was not the case in Asia.	亚洲的情况并非如此。
184	The structures of empire remained very strong.	帝国的结构仍然非常强大。
185	And so one of the	所以,其中一个
186	interesting things I found in writing this book is to compare different sorts of empire.	我写这本书时发现的有趣之处是比较不同的帝国
187	But when	但何时
188	we write about empire, we usually have the British Empire in mind, but the great distinctions	我们写关于帝国, 我们通常会想到大英帝国, 但伟大的区别
189	between the British and Dutch empires.	在英国和荷兰帝国之间
190	One of the questions I ask my students in China	我问在中国的学生一个问题
191	is sort of which country was not one of the eight countries that invaded China	是哪个国家不是入侵中国的八个国家之一
192	in 1900 during the Boxer Uprising.	1900年的拳击起义中
193	And of course, it's the Netherlands.	当然,这是荷兰。
194	And the Netherlands decided	荷兰决定
195	that the British are a very militarized empire, a militarized empire because it has the Royal	英国是一个军事化的帝国一个军事化的帝国因为它拥有皇家
196	Navy.	海军.
197	It needs to get the policeman of Asia.	它需要得到亚洲的警察。
198	And the Dutch say, fine, we're not a world power,	荷兰人说,好吧,我们不是世界强国,
199	but we'll have our colony.	但我们有我们的殖民地。
200	And that's fine with us.	这对我们来说很好。
201	And then they don't join the British	然后他们不加入英国人
202	of Africa and they join during the invasion of China.	在入侵中国期间他们加入
203	But sort of during the Second World War,	但在第二次世界大战期间
204	this Asia has control where empires, interlocking empires, are really in control.	这个亚洲控制着帝国相互交织的帝国真正控制着它们
205	That collapses.	崩溃了
206	And then out of it, you got an Asia that is made up of China, of Japan, whose territories are then	然后,你得到了一个亚洲由中国,日本组成, 它们的领地是当时
207	confined, of ultimately Vietnam, of the Philippines, of Indonesia, and of India,	在越南、菲律宾、印度尼西亚和印度,
208	Pakistan, Burma, and Thailand.	巴基斯坦、缅甸和泰国。
209	One of the interesting things that has always been really	有趣的事情之一一直是真实的
210	in my mind was why is it that these Asian countries decided to become large centralized	在我脑海里,为什么这些亚洲国家决定成为大集中
211	states, because in so many ways, there's nothing natural about Indonesia or even India,	国家,因为在许多方面, 没有什么自然关于印度尼西亚甚至印度,
212	or in many ways, China, which I think is a far more fragmented policy than we tend to think.	或在许多方面,中国,我认为这是一个远比我们所想的更加支离破碎的政策.
213	And I think the two reasons for that, which again, illustrates the significance of the	我认为,这两个原因再次表明,
214	Second World War in shaping these outcomes, is that on the one hand, they associate imperialism	第二次世界大战决定了这些结果一方面,他们把帝国主义联系在一起
215	with divide and rule tactics.	与分裂和统治战术。
216	And so they don't want to do that.	所以他们不想这么做
217	They don't want to go back there.	他们不想回去
218	But I also think there's a real sense of how do we regain our agency, our strength in the world.	但我也认为,我们如何恢复我们的机构,我们在世界的力量,是有真实感的.
219	And for that, obviously, you need to be a centralized polity.	为此,显然,你需要成为一个集中的政体。
220	And I think in this development	我想在这个发展中
221	of these news, and so you do get China as a large country, India as a large country, and Indonesia	这些消息,所以你确实得到中国作为一个大国, 印度作为一个大国,和印度尼西亚
222	as a large country, although we often don't think about Indonesia very much, but	作为一个大国,虽然我们经常不想印度尼西亚,但
223	that might well change in the future.	将来可能会改变
224	So I found those questions very interesting.	所以我觉得这些问题很有趣。
225	And you can see	你可以看见
226	there's a lot of contingency there.	那儿有很多紧急情况
227	Sukarno's idea of the future of Indonesia was one with	苏卡诺对印度尼西亚未来的看法
228	then Malaysia and Singapore, part of it.	然后是马来西亚和新加坡的一部分。
229	He even thought about, I think, about	他甚至想过,我想,关于
230	part of the Philippines, probably.	可能是菲律宾的一部分
231	And then it's in a lot of negotiations back and forth	之后又经过多次谈判
232	within people in Indonesia itself, but also with the Japanese and, of course, later with the Allies,	在印度尼西亚人民内部, 也与日本人, 当然,后来与盟军,
233	some kind of new Indonesia is defined.	某种新印度尼西亚的定义。
234	And I think the same is true for Pakistan, India,	我认为巴基斯坦,印度也是如此
235	where what is, you know, yes, we want a large states and modern nation states and all of that.	在那里,什么是,你知道,是的, 我们想要一个大的国家和现代的民族国家以及所有这一切。
236	We want the sovereignty model, but precisely what that is going to mean remains in the case of India,	我们希望主权模式, 但印度的情况仍然如此,
237	not just until petition in 1947 when you get the vision of the subcontinent into India and Pakistan,	直到1947年的请愿书你得到了印度和巴基斯坦次大陆的愿景
238	but within India itself, the debates about what kind of India we're going to become,	但是在印度内部,关于我们将要成为什么样的印度的辩论,
239	constitutional debates.	宪法辩论。
240	And I think in China, too, and I heard this from one of the young	我想在中国也是,我听到一个年轻人说
241	Kui-Song, he once told me as one of the foremost historians of the Chinese Communist Party,	魁星,他曾经告诉我作为中国共产党最重要的历史学家之一
242	I once talked with him about this question, you know, why Mao Zedong in many ways is a natural	我曾经和他谈过这个问题,你知道,为什么毛泽东在许多方面都是自然的
243	decentralizer.	权力下放者.
244	In today's language, he would be a natural burden mask kind of figure willing to	在今天的语境中,他会是一个自然的负担面具那种愿意
245	fragment.	碎片。
246	And that's, you know, his early rise in the 1920s are all about that kind of thing.	这就是,你知道,他在1920年代的早期崛起都是为了那种事情。
247	I said, well, he had a discussion with Stalin and said, if you can possibly help it,	我说他和斯大林谈过了说如果你能帮忙的话
248	please unify your country, have a central government that makes it much more easy to deal	请统一你的国家,有一个中央政府让它更容易处理
249	with all these minorities.	与所有这些少数民族。
250	And of course, we see today.	当然,我们看到今天。
251	But this is true or not?	但这是真的吗?
252	I don't know.	师曰.
253	So let's break it down into stages, because I think this is such an interesting point you're	所以,让我们把它分为几个阶段, 因为我认为这是一个有趣的问题你是一个
254	making about the role of nationalism.	谈民族主义的作用。
255	This is one of the big surprises of your book.	这是你书中的一大惊喜
256	So you talk	所以,你说话
257	about the 19th century, where the kind of prowling predatory Western powers, the British,	大约19世纪, 那种游荡的掠夺性西方大国, 英国,
258	the French, the Portuguese, in some cases, you know, they had that model where they were kind of	法国人,葡萄牙人, 在某些情况下,你知道, 他们有这个模型,他们有点
259	clinging to the very edge of countries like China, they had the treaty ports, they didn't have access	紧紧抓住中国等国家的边缘他们拥有条约港口他们没有通道
260	to the interior.	到内地.
261	And then in many cases, certainly the Dutch and say the Dutch East Indies, over the	在很多情况下,当然是荷兰人说荷兰东印度群岛
262	course of the 19th century, they actually turn them into kind of formal colonies.	在19世纪,他们实际上把它们变成一种正式的殖民地。
263	Now, obviously,	很明显
264	didn't happen to China, there was a kind of different hybrid model with a weak Chinese	没有发生在中国, 有一种不同的混合模式和一个弱的中国人
265	Empire, kind of basically, you know, under the tutelage, increasingly of the of the colonial	帝国,基本上,你知道, 在监护之下, 越来越多的殖民地
266	powers.	权力。
267	But you say that that process of creating these kind of territorially defined colonies,	但你说,创建这种领土界定的殖民地的过程,
268	that sense of subordination, ultimately fueled the kind of nationalism that broke out in World War	这种从属感,最终助长了世界大战爆发的民族主义
269	in places like Indonesia to say enough of the Dutch, we want to be free of the Dutch.	在像印度尼西亚这样的地方,我们想摆脱荷兰人。
270	But I	不过
271	think you also place quite a lot of that blame on, you know, why did Japan turn into this very	想想你还把相当多的责怪,你知道, 为什么日本变成这个非常
272	aggressive militaristic kind of player, it was that Japan was learning quite dark lessons from	激进的军国主义的玩家日本从中吸取了相当黑暗的教训
273	its European Imperial rivals, and that to some extent, it was copying that kind of European,	它的欧洲帝国对手, 在某种程度上,它模仿了这种欧洲,
274	that kind of Imperial mindset is it helps us understand.	那种帝国的心态有助于我们理解
275	So well, we'll do the 19th century,	那么,我们会做19世纪,
276	and then we'll look at kind of the between the wars, First World War, Second World War, and then	然后我们再看看战争、第一次世界大战、第二次世界大战之间
277	we'll get to the Second World War.	我们会进入第二次世界大战的
278	So just help us understand the extent to which I think you put	所以,只是帮助我们理解的程度,我认为你
279	quite a lot of blame on the Western powers for kind of leading up to the elements of	西方列强的罪魁祸首
280	Japanese militarism and the aggression of Japan from kind of the start of the 20th century.	日本军国主义与日本从20世纪初开始的侵略.
281	There's all up there.	皆有顶上.
282	We'll try to unpack things one by one, really.	我们试着把事情一个一个地整理好,真的.
283	I think first thing to say	我想第一件事是说
284	is that I don't think it's at all was inevitable that Japan would become this	我觉得日本不会变成这样
285	violent, brutal, militaristic empire.	暴力、残暴、军事主义的帝国。
286	I think I point out in the book, there were real moments	我想我在书里指出, 有真实的时刻
287	when Japan could have gone a very different way, especially in the 1920s, when you have something	特别是20世纪20年代那时你有东西
288	called Taisho democracy, the military is put in its place, and regular people, regular politicians	叫做"台绍民主" 军队被取代普通人普通政客
289	take over the government.	接管政府事务
290	So I don't think it's something that's sometimes argued that	所以我不认为这是东西有时争论
291	Japan at the time was instinctively militaristic, and I don't really buy that.	当时的日本是本能的军国主义,我并不真的相信这一点.
292	It's much more,	还要多得多
293	any culture is more complicated than that.	任何文化都比这复杂
294	So you don't have to buy that.	所以,你不必买。
295	And in many ways,	在许多方面,
296	I think the Japanese Empire was highly opportunistic.	我认为大日本帝国是非常机会主义的.
297	It expands when the opportunities	机会越大,机会就越大
298	are there to do so.	有这样做。
299	First, of course, in China, and then the US and the UK are busy with,	首先,当然,在中国, 然后美国和英国忙着,
300	the US is an isolationist, and the UK is very busy with affairs in Europe, so new opportunities	美国是一个孤立主义者, 英国非常忙于欧洲事务, 所以新的机会
301	arrive.	到达。
302	And I think economic questions really are very fundamental to understanding Japanese	我认为经济问题对于理解日本人来说是非常根本的
303	expansionism.	扩张主义.
304	In terms of sort of this aggressive European periodism, again, I think there are	从这种侵略性的欧洲时期主义来看,我再次认为
305	differences, right?	差异,对不对?
306	I mean, the UK is highly territorially instinctive.	我的意思是,英国高度地域本能。
307	I think the Dutch	我觉得荷兰人
308	are different in their approach to empire.	他们对待帝国的方式不同
309	They leave local aristocracy in place.	他们留下了地方贵族统治。
310	They don't go	他们不走
311	for direct taxation.	直接征税。
312	I mean, they're aggressive in other ways.	我的意思是,他们在其他方面是攻击性的。
313	There's a lot of fighting.	争斗甚多.
314	The	那个
315	conquest of India is a very violent one.	对印度的征服是非常暴力的。
316	It's like a Napoleonic exercise.	这就像拿破仑式的练习。
317	Napoleon fails,	拿破仑失败了
318	but Britain succeeds in the subcontinent.	但英国在次大陆成功
319	And I think it's this idea of a global competition	我想这是全球竞争的想法
320	for great power status, in which acquiring more and more resources, and this Darwinian sense of,	获得越来越多的资源达尔文的这种感觉
321	you know, the struggle for the survival of the fittest that really drives that.	你知道,为适者生存而斗争真正驱动它。
322	But in the late 19th century, in Indonesia, and of course, in China, you have these elites that	但是在19世纪后期, 在印度尼西亚,当然,在中国, 你有这些精英
323	are beginning to respond to that.	正在开始对此作出反应。
324	They don't like the loss of agency.	他们不喜欢失去代理
325	They don't like that	他们不喜欢这样
326	their countries are becoming poor, down upon, disdained.	他们的国家正在变得贫穷、被鄙视。
327	They begin to really think about	他们开始真正思考
328	sort of what is it that we need to do to revive ourselves politically, economically, to become,	某种程度上,我们需要做什么以恢复我们的政治,经济,成为,
329	you know, the Chinese everywhere.	到处都是中国人
330	And you make this fascinating distinction in the book about	你在书中做了个令人着迷的区分
331	that late 19th century nationalism.	19世纪末的民族主义
332	It was very often an elite intellectual nationalism.	它常常是一种精英思想民族主义。
333	It was, you know, it was people like, you know, Lu Xun and Liang Qichao sitting in kind of tea	是,你知道,是人们喜欢,你知道, 鲁迅和梁贵曹坐在一种茶
334	houses in Tokyo, studying Japanese translations of German books on nationalism.	东京的房屋,研究德国民族主义书籍的日文译本.
335	But as long as	不过只要
336	it was at that elite level, that was always going to limit its political power.	正是在这个精英阶层, 总是会限制它的政治权力。
337	And then to move to	然后搬来
338	the post-World War I, because clearly World War I was fundamentally not an Asian war.	第一次世界大战之后, 因为很明显,第一次世界大战不是一场亚洲战争。
339	You know,	你知道吗,
340	Japan was on the side of the Allies, but it was not an Asian war.	日本曾站在同盟国一边,但并非亚洲战争.
341	And I guess, for certainly	我想,当然
342	people sitting in China, the thing that everyone talks about, remembers, dwells on was the Versailles	坐在中国的人, 每个人都在谈论,记住, 住在凡尔赛
343	peace conference in Paris and the way that Japan ended up still retaining, you know,	巴黎的和平会议以及日本最终仍然保留的方式,你知道,
344	parts of China that used to belong to the German Empire.	原属德意志帝国的中国部分地区.
345	And the delegation from China, you know,	还有中国代表团,你知道,
346	signed such a weak deal at Versailles that you had the kind of the May 4th movements and,	在凡尔赛签了一个很弱的交易让你有那种5月4日的运动,而且,
347	you know, the protests against dishumiliation.	你知道,抗议拆散。
348	So then nationalism becomes a kind of popular	所以民族主义就成了一种流行
349	cause.	原因。
350	And you also make this really fascinating point that if we're looking for distinctions	而且你还提出这个真正令人着迷的观点如果我们寻找的区别
351	between Europe and Asia, that because of the absolute bloodbath of the kind of the ruling	在欧洲和亚洲之间,因为绝对血流成河
352	elites and their sons in the battles of, you know, the fields of Flanders and the trenches of	精英们和他们的儿子们在佛兰德的战场和战壕中
353	France, the World War I for Europeans discredited nationalism.	法国第一次欧洲人世界大战抹黑民族主义.
354	That's right.	没错
355	It was an entire generation, certainly of kind of the ruling elites who had lost their sons	是一代人,当然是统治精英失去了儿子
356	to this war.	为了这场战争
357	But in Asia, it was very different.	但在亚洲,情况却大不相同。
358	Nationalism was strengthened by World War I and	第一次世界大战和
359	what came out of that sense that Europe had bullied and humiliated so many countries in Asia,	从这种意义上说,欧洲欺负和羞辱了亚洲的许多国家,
360	including Japan.	包括日本在内。
361	The Japanese delegates to Versailles felt that there was a kind of racial	日本驻凡尔赛代表觉得有种种族
362	discrimination directed at Japan that was intolerable.	对日本的歧视是无法容忍的。
363	So help us understand this moment.	因此,帮助我们理解这一刻。
364	It's 1919.	1919年废.
365	Europeans and the Americans under Woodrow Wilson in despair about the horrors of	在伍德罗·威尔逊统治下的欧洲人和美国人对恐怖绝望
366	nationalism.	民族主义。
367	But in your telling Asians are drawing very, very different lessons.	但是,在你们讲的亚洲人正在吸取非常,非常不同的教训。
368	They're different.	二者分别.
369	Yeah.	对
370	And just, just to make that point, I mean, it's the May 4th,	只是想说出这一点, 我的意思是,这是5月4日,
371	of course, has an Asian context.	当然,有亚洲背景。
372	The same thing happens.	同样的事情发生。
373	The same protests happen in Korea,	韩国也有同样的抗议活动,
374	where it actually begins and then it goes into China and then it goes into Egypt as well as	然后进入中国然后进入埃及
375	India.	印地语。
376	You get these massive protests.	你得到这些大规模抗议。
377	And I think one thing that, and it is not just	我觉得有一件事, 这不仅仅是
378	Versailles, but it's also the October Revolution.	凡尔赛,但也是十月革命.
379	And it is also the decision.	这也是决定。
380	In Russia, the 1917.	在俄罗斯,1917年。
381	Yeah.	对
382	So the spread of communism.	所以共产主义的传播.
383	So I think you get, you get the spread of nationalism	所以我觉得你得到了,你得到了民族主义的传播
384	and sort of, you know, freedom, self-determination, but also communism and also actually Islam,	某种程度上,你知道, 自由,自决, 同时也是共产主义和实际上伊斯兰教,
385	which I think is actually, I had not thought about before the beginning of this book.	我认为,事实上,在这本书开始之前,我还没有想过。
386	You have the sort of the collapse of the Ottoman Empire, the rise of Turkey as a nationalist state	奥斯曼帝国的崩溃以及土耳其作为一个民族主义国家的崛起
387	that really influenced Islamic populations across Southeast Asia.	这真的影响了整个东南亚的伊斯兰人口。
388	And I suspect also in China,	我也怀疑在中国
389	we're not allowed to know about that.	我们不能知道这件事
390	And I think what these demonstrations showed	我认为这些示威显示
391	is not just this kind of nationalism, self-determination, even revolution,	不仅仅是这种民族主义自决甚至革命
392	but also the power of mass movements.	还有群众运动的力量
393	By then, of course, you have new media.	到那时,你当然有了新的媒体。
394	I think new media	我觉得新媒体
395	is very important in this story.	这故事很重要
396	Lots of journals, lots of magazines.	很多日记,很多杂志。
397	You also actually get the	你其实也得到了
398	beginning of the radio and Sun Yat-sen is the first who makes use of the radio in China	开始收音机,孙亚森是中国第一个使用收音机的人
399	to create a nationalist message in Shanghai, as it happens, speaking from the rooftops of, I think,	在上海制造一个民族主义的信息, 因为它发生, 从屋顶上说,我想,
400	great world center.	伟大的世界中心。
401	And then they, you know, you get these, and one of the consequences of the	然后他们,你知道,你得到这些, 和后果之一
402	First World War in Europe is that the foreigners who have been left behind, who've been ordered	第一次欧洲世界大战是被留下的外国人被命令
403	not to come to Europe in order to maintain empire in China and in India, they become more	不来欧洲是为了维持中国和印度的帝国他们变得更加强大
404	militaristic.	军国主义。
405	And that's one of the reasons you get these massacres in Shanghai and in Guangzhou,	这就是你在上海和广州的大屠杀的原因之一
406	because they want to show that they too can fight.	因为他们想证明他们也能战斗
407	And of course, that splits the Chinese	当然,这把中国人分了
408	against the foreigners even more strongly than it already had been.	比以前更强烈地反对外国人。
409	And then you get various	然后你得到各种东西
410	people trying to mobilize this new source of power, which had been shown, of course, in Russia,	人们试图调动这个新的权力来源, 当然,在俄罗斯,
411	the October Revolution, but also in the May 4th-like movements across Asia.	十月革命, 同时也在五月四日的亚洲运动。
412	So we can do	这样我们就可以做
413	something with that.	东西与那个。
414	We can mobilize them.	我们可以动员他们。
415	Now people begin to organize parties, the nationalists	现在人们开始组织政党民族主义者
416	and the communists in China, but Congress Party, it's a longer history, but then under Gandhi,	和中国的共产主义者, 但国会党, 这是一个更长的历史, 但后来甘地,
417	especially, begins to build a mass movement.	特别是,开始建立一个群众运动。
418	Sukarno does the same in Indonesia.	苏卡诺在印度尼西亚也是这样。
419	Now, of course,	当然
420	the problem is they're all improvising and they don't quite know how to do it.	问题是,他们都是即兴表演他们不太知道怎么做
421	They reach for	他们到达
422	models.	模特儿们
423	And in the process, they split between nationalists and communists.	而在此过程中,他们分裂为民族主义者和共产主义者.
424	I think for the	我觉得
425	longest time, very few Chinese would have known precisely what is the difference between a member	时间最长,中国人很少知道成员之间的区别
426	of the KMT or the CCP.	国民党或中共党员。
427	But by 1928, it's clear and it's not, you know, it's going to be very	但到了1928年,它已经很明确了, 而且它不会,你知道,它将会非常
428	disruptive.	破坏性的。
429	And I think to focus on that helps us explain the kinds of civil wars that emerged after	我想集中力量帮助我们解释战后发生的内战
430	1945, as these various parties, you know, have gained even more power and will build up their	1945年,随着这些政党,你知道,已经获得了更多的权力,并将加强它们的力量。
431	own armies and build up their mass organizations.	拥有军队,建立群众组织.
432	And then they begin fighting for the future of	然后他们开始为未来而战
433	their countries from, yeah.	他们的国家,是的。
434	But to pick up on your point, you know, your fascinating comparison of	但从你的观点,你知道, 你迷人的比较
435	kind of, you know, someone like, you know, Lucian publishing journals for intellectuals, that this	有点,你知道,有人喜欢,你知道, 路西安出版期刊为知识分子,
436	was the kind of the TikTok of its day, right?	是那种TikTok的一天,对不对?
437	That this was the radio broadcast.	这是广播
438	And you make	你让
439	this point, I mean, this is not exactly how you frame it, but, you know, you could imagine being	这一点,我的意思是,这不是确切如何设定它, 但是,你知道,你可以想象是
440	a kind of a young, disenchanted British student who immediately after World War I, for you,	一种年轻的, 绝望的英国学生谁在第一次世界大战后立即,为你,
441	nationalism is a kind of an old man in a general's uniform, sending young men to die.	民族主义是一种穿着将军制服的老人,送年轻人去死.
442	And so	这样
443	nationalism is this kind of awful old kind of dying imperial kind of creed, and literally	民族主义是一种可怕的老式垂死的帝国式信仰, 和字面上
444	the Austro-Hungarian Empire is, you know, being swept into the dustbin of history.	整个奥匈帝国都被卷进了历史的垃圾堆
445	But you have this phrase about how nationalism in Asia, if you're looking at, say, the 1920s, 1930s,	但你有一句关于亚洲的民族主义, 如果你看,比如1920年代,1930年代,
446	was stylish, and it was youthful, and it had a spice of danger, and it was a way to resist	时髦年轻充满危险是一种抵抗的方法
447	colonial rule.	殖民统治。
448	And if you're trying to work out how to glue a disparate country like Indonesia	如果你是想想办法给像印度尼西亚这样的异国贴胶
449	together, it was a way to kind of imagine you could build a new society, or if you're an Indian	一起,它是一种方式想象你能建立一个新的社会, 或者如果你是一个印度人
450	nationalist, kind of try and recover a sense of cultural confidence after so many years of being	民族主义者,尝试恢复文化自信感在这么多年后
451	told that everything civilized and technologically sophisticated was from Britain, not from India.	告诉大家,一切文明和技术精密的事物都是来自英国,而不是来自印度.
452	So help us understand this kind of interwar moment just before the Japanese start invading	所以在日本人入侵之前帮助我们理解这种战争间的时刻
453	their neighbors, the role of nationalism and how it was focused on the desire to be rid of	他们的邻居,民族主义的作用以及它如何专注于摆脱欲望
454	the European empires.	欧洲帝国
455	So I think that you put it very nicely and very well indeed, and thank you	所以我觉得你写得非常好,真的,谢谢你
456	for that.	对于这个。
457	I think that nationalism and all these other movements that are sort of floating about	我认为民族主义和所有这些其他运动在某种程度上漂浮在
458	give a sense of hope.	给人希望
459	We can, a sense of agency.	我们可以,一种代理感。
460	We've been told until the First World War	我们一直被告知直到第一次世界大战
461	that European civilization is it, and we're not going to catch up, and our own civilizations are	欧洲文明就是它, 我们不会赶上, 我们自己的文明是
462	horrible, they get backward, the tide is down, our elites are incompetent, our governments are	可怕的,他们向后退,潮流下降, 我们的精英无能,我们的政府
463	incompetent now.	无能现在.
464	And I think these nationalisms gave that sense of hope and agency, and then these	我认为这些民族主义给人一种希望感和代理感然后这些
465	mass protests gave them the means, power, the institutional wherewithal to develop that into	群众抗议给了他们手段、权力、体制手段
466	a serious program of rebuilding.	一个严肃的重建计划。
467	So one of the points I make in the book too is that it's not	所以我在书中说的一个要点是,它不是
468	the revival of all civilizations.	所有文明的复兴。
469	It's not the story of India or China or Indonesia.	这不是印度或中国或印度尼西亚的故事.
470	Finding an old style of government that is superior somehow to the West and can be	寻找一种对西方有优越感的旧式政府
471	can be revived, that's not what it is.	可以复活,这不是它是什么。
472	No, things really, really need to change.	不,事情真的, 真的需要改变。
473	And I	还有我
474	think about some Confucians in the 1930s who were real Confucians, but they also thought	想想20世纪30年代的一些儒家,他们是真正的儒家,但他们也认为
475	the only way in which we are going to make Confucianism count again are all kinds of	唯一能让儒家再入计的方法就是
476	philosophical underpinnings count again is by nationalizing Confucianism.	哲学基础又算了,就是把儒学国有化.
477	And you can see the	你可以看到
478	same kind of rethinking that is happening in India too, where yes, we have our Hindu legacies,	同样的思考发生在印度, 在那里,是的, 我们有我们的印度遗产,
479	but only if we nationalize them.	但只有我们把他们国有化
480	One of them actually, in the years before the outbreak of	其中之一,在爆发前的几年里
481	the Second World War, you have people saying, well, actually, the Europeans have demonstrated	第二次世界大战期间,你有人说, 实际上,欧洲人已经证明
482	that yes, they are technologically very powerful, and the science is very great,	是的,他们在技术上非常强大, 和科学是非常伟大的,
483	but they have lost something.	但他们失去了一些东西。
484	And it's that in the case of India, it's just spirituality.	而对于印度来说,它只是灵性.
485	In the case of China, it's Confucianism.	以中国为例,是儒学.
486	And it's building on those kinds of ideas that	它建立在那些想法上,
487	recover this interval, we have something that we can transform into these new nation states.	恢复这个间隔, 我们有一些东西,我们可以转化成这些新的民族国家。
488	And I have to say, that's one of the moments reading your book, where there's a kind of	我不得不说,这是读你的书的瞬间之一, 那里有一种
489	clanging gong reminding us the present day, you have all these kind of, you know,	叮当的Gong提醒我们今天, 你有所有这些类型,你知道,
490	what is the future of democracy?	民主的未来是什么?
491	We have all of these populist leaders in Europe,	我们在欧洲有这么多民粹主义领袖
492	that kind of sense of despair that the elites don't know how to answer the anger of the masses.	那种绝望的感觉精英们不知道如何回答群众的愤怒。
493	And, you know, you just have to turn on the television and watch American politics to sort	而且,你知道,你只需要打开电视和观看美国政治排序
494	of start to see how for nationalists in Asia, the idea of the West is in decline and the East is	对亚洲的民族主义者来说西方的思想正在衰落东方正在衰落
495	rising is a very different story.	上升是一个非常不同的故事。
496	So now let's turn to the moment where Japan shows its teeth,	所以,现在让我们转向日本展示它的牙齿,
497	it invades China under false pretenses with Marco Polo incident, but then it also starts,	以马可波罗事件为借口入侵中国但后来又开始
498	you say something which I think, you know, I'm sure that many readers in Asia will be	你说的话我认为,你知道, 我相信许多亚洲读者会
499	up to this point delighted by the idea that Europe is too Eurocentric and that Asia was,	迄今为止,欧洲过于以欧洲为中心,亚洲是,
500	you know, a very different form of World War Two.	你知道,一种非常不同的二战形式。
501	But I suspect for some readers in Asia,	但我怀疑亚洲的一些读者,
502	at least the most controversial statement you make is to note that actually quite a lot of	至少你最有争议的说法是指出实际上很多
503	leaders in Asia were quite pleased when the Japanese started invading their imperial masters.	当日本人开始侵略他们的帝国主子时,亚洲的领导人感到相当高兴。
504	And so Sukarno in Indonesia was very supportive of the Japanese.	因此印度尼西亚的苏卡诺非常支持日本人.
505	There were plenty of Indian	还有很多印度人
506	nationalists who were very supportive of the Japanese.	非常支持日本人的民族主义者.
507	They were Indians who deserted from	他们是印度人逃离
508	the British Indian Army and joined essentially a Japanese proxy force, the Indian National Army,	并且基本上加入了一支日本代理军印度国民军
509	which eventually had 30,000 troops, I think you're right.	最终有3万军队我想你是对的
510	And in China, and this is obviously a	在中国,这显然是一个
511	controversial point in China, but you know, the history is there that the Japanese invasion in	在中国的争议点,但你知道,历史是日本的入侵
512	1937 rescued the Chinese Communist Party from destruction by a much, much stronger Guomindang.	1937年将中国共产党从一个更坚固得多的国安军的破坏中解救出来.
513	And so clearly no one is denying that appalling, terrible things, atrocities happen in World	显然没有人否认可怕的事情暴行发生在世界
514	War Two as a result of Japan's invasion and occupation of its neighbors.	战争二因日本侵略占领邻国.
515	But you remind us	但你提醒我们
516	of the very uncomfortable but necessary history that plenty of Asian leaders initially, at least	最初许多亚洲领导人,至少是
517	{\fnSIMHEI\fs22\1cHFFFFFF\3cHFF8000}欢迎日本人来代替压迫者 {\fnSIMHEI\fs22\1cHFFFFFF\3cHFF8000}不管那是国安队
518	in China or the Dutch in Indonesia or the British in India, help us unpack that very uncomfortable	在中国或荷兰在印度尼西亚或印度的英国, 帮助我们打包非常不舒服
519	observation.	观察。
520	Okay.	摆
521	Yes, you're absolutely right.	是的,你绝对是对的。
522	And I began reading about the Japanese military	我开始读日本军队
523	across Asia.	整个亚洲
524	That was one of my greatest surprises too.	这也是我最大的惊喜之一
525	My work has been about China and I've been,	我的工作是中国,我一直,
526	you know, all the Chinese stories about the horrors of the Japanese and actually I've helped	你知道,所有的中国故事关于日本人的恐怖,实际上我已经帮助
527	build that image and contribute to research in the Nanning Massacre and so on.	建立这种形象,为南宁大屠杀等研究做出贡献.
528	And then I	接着我
529	read a Dutch book, which really struck me.	读一本荷兰书,这让我很吃惊
530	It's one of the great Dutch histories of the Second	这是荷兰第二大历史之一
531	World War, where it's very clear that when the Japanese invaded Sukarno, when the Japanese	世界大战中,日本人入侵苏嘉野的时候,
532	invaded Indonesia, they were welcomed.	他们入侵印度尼西亚,受到欢迎。
533	No doubt about it.	无疑.
534	People lined the roads.	人们排队的道路。
535	Now that's	现在
536	common, but Sukarno met them.	但苏卡诺见过他们
537	And I was like, how do you explain that?	我当时想,你怎么解释?
538	Because the Indonesian	因为印度尼西亚人
539	intellectuals were certainly well informed.	知识分子肯定很了解情况。
540	They had been writing about the Japanese in China.	他们一直在中国写日本人的事
541	So	这么说
542	how do you explain that?	你怎么解释?
543	And I think that's prompted me to begin rethinking this.	我认为这促使我开始重新思考这个问题。
544	And I	还有我
545	think we need to think more subtly about the Japanese during, you know, that there were all	我认为我们需要多考虑一些日本人... ... ......
546	massacres.	屠杀。
547	Yes, that in the end, it was really awful.	是的,最后,这是非常糟糕的。
548	Also true.	亦复如是.
549	But there were also sort of,	但也有一样,
550	you know, periods when Indonesians were genuinely happy and there was sort of a honeymoon period.	你知道,印度尼西亚人真正快乐的时期也有蜜月的时期
551	And, you know, people started wearing kimonos in Jakarta.	在雅加达人们开始穿和服
552	So these things are all true.	所以这些事情都是真实的。
553	And I think even in the case of China, well, let me put it this way.	我想即使在中国,我也可以这么说。
554	So I teach a class on the	所以我教了一门课
555	Second World War at Peking University.	北京大学第二次世界大战.
556	And my students think exactly as you said, you know,	我的学生都像你说的一样
557	that's exactly it.	就是这样
558	And then I have them read about Subhas Chandra Bose, who was the leader,	然后我让他们读到苏比哈斯·钱德拉·博斯谁是领导者
559	who was the leader.	谁是领导者。
560	The Indian nationalist leader.	印度民族主义领袖.
561	Yeah, Indian National Army leader.	是的,印度国民军领导人。
562	And he became sort of this very manly, masculine leader.	他成为了这种非常男性化的领袖
563	And he's still now regarded as a hero	他现在仍被视为英雄
564	in India itself.	在印度本身。
565	And the reason is that he stood up, he was willing to sacrifice his life	原因是他站起来他愿意牺牲自己的生命
566	to free India, to liberate India.	解放印度, 解放印度。
567	But just to spell it out for people watching,	但为了给观众讲清楚
568	the Indian National Army was an anti-British pro-Japanese, Japanese funded army of people	印度国民军是一支反英的亲日,日本资助的人民军队
569	who had deserted from British Indian military service.	从英属印度军队中逃出来的
570	And at the end of the Second World War,	在第二次世界大战结束时,
571	the British put some of them on trial for treason.	英国人以叛国罪对他们进行了审判
572	So this is really dark stuff, right?	所以这是非常黑暗的东西,对不对?
573	This dark stuff.	这黑暗的东西。
574	And the trial is very interesting, because you get these intense	审判非常有趣,因为你得到的激烈
575	legal debates as to what really is a traitor, who is somebody, the Indian National Army was made up	法律辩论到底什么才是叛徒谁是某个人印度国民军是编造的
576	of POWs after the fall of Singapore, and of course, others.	新加坡倒台后战俘,当然还有其他人
577	So then what is the legal status of the	因此,什么是法律地位
578	POWs?	战俘?
579	Do they have to be loyal to the King?	他们必须忠于国王吗?
580	So these are Indian troops who've ended up	这些是印度军队的结局
581	prisoners of the Japanese because they were part of a British run force that is captured at the	被俘的日本人因为他们是英国军队的一部分
582	fall of Singapore.	新加坡沦陷.
583	And then they transfer the religions to the anti-British courts.	然后他们把宗教转移到反英法庭.
584	Is that the	是那个
585	basis?	依据?
586	I don't think they want Japan to take over.	我想他们不想让日本接手
587	But they are willing to use, they're very happy	但他们愿意使用, 他们非常高兴
588	to use, they are grateful for the opportunity the Japanese has given them to actually liberate	他们感谢日本人给他们真正解放的机会
589	India from British colonizers, imperialists.	印度来自英国殖民者,帝国主义者.
590	And so in those trials, as in the book,	所以在这些审判中就像书中
591	in those trials, actually, India rises up against the British, because these people	事实上,在这些审判中,印度起立反对英国人,因为这些人
592	were willing to sacrifice themselves for our cause.	为了我们的事业而牺牲自己
593	In some ways, as opposed to the Indian	在某些方面,相对于印度人
594	army of the British, who had been supporting the British Empire, who had suppressed a mass	曾支持大英帝国的英军曾镇压过大英帝国
595	uprising in 1942 during the Second World War, who had caused or helped cause the Bengal famine,	第二次世界大战期间的1942年起义,他们造成或帮助了孟加拉饥荒,
596	and so on.	诸如来.
597	And so in my class in Beijing, I have my students read about this, and they find it	于是我在北京的课上我的学生读到这个他们发现
598	wonderfully interesting.	很有趣,这很有趣。
599	And it makes them think very differently about the Japanese,	这让他们对日本人的看法非常不同
600	and especially about Wang Jingwei, the guy who was the number two in the nationalists,	特别是那个民族主义者中第二名的王静伟
601	who then went on a peace campaign, began to find some way to escape from this war and work with	开始寻找从这场战争中逃出来的方法并与之合作
602	the Japanese.	日军
603	And of course, the Colonel is, I think, the clearest example of this.	当然,上校是,我认为,最清楚的例子。
604	He welcomed	他欢迎
605	the Japanese and his secular nationalists,	日本人和他的世俗民族主义者,
606	Muhammad Hatta is number two, and they worked very closely.	穆罕默德·哈塔是第二名,他们合作非常密切.
607	And I think it was very important for	我觉得这对
608	the nation state of Indonesia to emerge out of the Second World War, because that allowed the	印度尼西亚民族国家脱离第二次世界大战,因为这样,印度尼西亚就能够摆脱战争。
609	secular nationalists, who had been in prison camps under the Dutch, that allowed them to	曾经在荷兰人的战俘营的世俗民族主义者
610	gain two things, I think.	我想有两件事
611	One is the simple administrative experience of running a very large	一个是管理一个非常庞大的
612	country.	国家。
613	Now that's invaluable.	现在,这是宝贵的。
614	But the Japanese also gave them the opportunity to use the radio,	但是日本人也给了他们使用无线电的机会
615	to use publications, so it became famous.	使用出版物, 所以它变得出名。
616	There was, of course, limits to what they could say	当然,他们能说的话是有限度的
617	against Japan.	反对日本。
618	But they used it, and it became very much famous across Indonesia and probably	但是他们使用它, 它变得非常出名在印度尼西亚各地,可能
619	further.	更进一步。
620	And of course, then, too, if you compare the degree to which the British were willing to	当然,如果把英国人愿意的程度比起来
621	give in to Indian demands for at least demanding status during the Second World War, which was zero,	在第二次世界大战期间,印度要求至少获得要求地位的要求是零,
622	which was simply denied, or the degree to which the Japanese, yes, by force of circumstance,	或日本人通过情势的力量被否定的程度
623	to accommodate Indonesian nationalism, you can see why the Japanese were quite welcomed.	为了照顾印度尼西亚民族主义,你可以看到为什么日本人受到相当欢迎.
624	And just to	并且只是去
625	our listeners, the negotiations between Sukarno and the Japanese had reached such a point that	我们的听众,苏嘉野和日本人的谈判已经到了这样的程度
626	they were about to declare independence, and they actually did so two days after Japan's surrender,	他们即将宣布独立而在日本投降两天后
627	and many Japanese then gave them the arms to fight against the Dutch and so on.	之后许多日本人给了他们与荷兰人等战斗的武器.
628	So I think	所以我觉得
629	this is an open question to me.	这对我来说是一个开放的问题。
630	We are accustomed to this highly nationalistic view of	我们习惯了这种高度民族主义的观点
631	Japan in China today, and we all know how that is fed through research, which is more subtle,	今天在中国的日本,我们都知道如何通过研究提供食物, 这更微妙,
632	but also in the media and so on.	在媒体上也一样
633	And I think the reality where people like Wan Jingwei probably	我认为现实中人们喜欢万静伟
634	had much greater support, certainly locally in Nanjing, where he did much good to relieve local	得到了更大的支持,肯定在南京当地, 他在那里做了很多好事来缓解当地
635	suffering and probably more property as well.	痛苦和也许更多的财产。
636	That's fascinating.	这太迷人了
637	And we'll go to questions	我们来问问题
638	from online users, so please start posting your questions in the chat.	请开始在聊天中发问。
639	But I guess, you know,	但我猜,你知道吗,
640	it's so interesting.	这很有趣。
641	If you look at some of the recent Chinese official propaganda, you know,	如果你看看中国最近的一些官方宣传
642	for example, we've seen a film that came out last year, which is kind of semi-documentary,	比如说,我们看过一部去年推出的电影这部电影是半纪录片
643	semi-fiction film about quite an obscure instance involving British prisoners of war on a Japanese	半虚构的电影讲述一个相当模糊的事例涉及英国战俘对日本人
644	troopship.	军舰。
645	The ship is torpedoed.	舰载鱼雷.
646	They're rescued by Chinese sailors, Chinese fishermen.	他们被中国水手,中国渔民救出.
647	And so the	所以说
648	whole idea is that there was a kind of a fight of the good people, the British, the Chinese,	整个想法是,有一种好人民,英国,中国,
649	against the bad people, the Japanese, the German Nazis.	对抗坏人日本德国纳粹
650	And it was all sort of seamless.	这一切都是无缝的。
651	And that	还有
652	Asia was the victim of fascist imperialism.	亚洲是法西斯帝国主义的受害者.
653	And that this is one of the reasons, you know,	而这是原因之一,你知道,
654	if you look at the way that the Chinese use the American veterans of the, you know, the American	如果你看看中国人用美国老兵的方式
655	volunteer pilots who fought in World War II, and now their children and grandchildren get	参加过二战的志愿飞行员现在他们的儿孙
656	welcomed for propaganda tours.	欢迎光临
657	And they have the whole kind of all of that kind of push that	他们有各种各样的那种推
658	the Chinese and the and the and the allies were on the same side against the wicked Japanese.	华人和盟国同心协力对抗邪恶的日本人
659	But you're reminding us that real life, real history is a lot messier and a lot fuzzier.	但你提醒我们真实的生活,真实的历史是一个多混乱和很多fuzier。
660	So I guess before we go to users questions, let's end with the kind of that moment at the end of	所以我想在问用户问题之前让我们在结尾的那一时刻结束
661	World War II where the Dutch, your own country, sort of hoped at least, I don't know if they	二战的时候,荷兰人,你们自己国家, 至少希望,我不知道他们是否
662	assumed that they would get their empire back.	他们以为会夺回他们的帝国
663	The French certainly intended to get their empire	法国人肯定想得到他们的帝国
664	back.	回来
665	The British, very interesting, you make the point that the actual Viceroy of India,	英国人,非常有趣,你指出印度的实际总督,
666	Lord Wavell, understood that something big was going to have to change.	瓦维尔勋爵,明白一些大事要改变
667	But Churchill,	但丘吉尔,
668	absolutely adamant that nothing was going to change at the end of World War II.	绝对坚持二战结束时一切不会改变
669	The Americans	美国人
670	playing this extremely ambiguous role, because of course, Americans liked to think of themselves	扮演这个极其模糊的角色, 因为当然,美国人喜欢想自己
671	as critics of empire, critics of colonialism, standing on the side of liberation, pushing	作为帝国的批评者,殖民主义的批评者,站在解放的一边,推动
672	Churchill to agree to end empire and once the war was over, but a bit half hearted.	丘吉尔同意结束帝国一旦战争结束, 但有点心碎。
673	And so we get to this moment, the Japanese have just been defeated as the surrender of Japan.	因此,我们到了这一刻,日本人刚刚被打败,作为日本的投降.
674	The empires think they're coming back.	帝国以为会回来.
675	The Dutch think they're getting Indonesia back.	荷兰人认为他们要把印度尼西亚带回来.
676	How does that play out?	怎么样?
677	Right, well, that's one of those wonderful moments.	好吧,这是其中的一个美妙时刻。
678	So one aspect that I found really interesting in doing this research is to explain the American	因此,我发现一个非常有趣的方面做这个研究是解释美国
679	story in this, and of course it seizes control of the Pacific, which itself is a very important	当然它控制了太平洋太平洋本身就是一个非常重要的
680	story with real relevance, I think, for today.	我认为,今天的故事是有意义的。
681	But early on, Roosevelt was confronted with this	但罗斯福很早就面对这个
682	conflict, this contradiction between supporting the British, which have a huge empire, enormous	冲突支持英军之间的矛盾英军拥有庞大的帝国
683	resources, great army, great navy, great air force, they needed to defeat Germany.	资源,伟大的军队,伟大的海军,伟大的空军, 他们需要打败德国。
684	So they	所以他们
685	think that's essential.	这很重要
686	But in August 1941, the United Charter, they had also promised	但是在1941年8月的《联合国宪章》中他们也承诺过
687	self-determination.	自决。
688	Roosevelt really wanted, Roosevelt believed that empire act was a cause	罗斯福真的想要,罗斯福相信帝国行为是一个事业
689	of the Second World War.	第二次世界大战期间
690	So we need to move that.	所以,我们需要移动它。
691	We move beyond that.	我们超越了这一点。
692	But then in the reality of	但是在现实中
693	power, he has to side with the British.	他必须支持英国人
694	He does so first in 1942 during the quit in the uprising,	他在1942年起义中辞职时第一次这么做
695	massive uprising.	大规模起义。
696	In the middle of World War II, and there's an uprising in India,	二战中期,印度发生起义,
697	tying up British military forces.	把英国军队绑起来
698	And FDR has to choose between his kind of principles	FDR必须在他的原则中做出选择
699	and helping Britain out in a very tough spot.	在非常艰难的地方帮助英国
700	Yeah.	对
701	And so he, you know, after a long	所以他,你知道,经过了很长时间
702	debate and trying to push Churchill to give in to these demands, well, in the end.	并试图推动丘吉尔屈服于这些要求,嗯,最后。
703	And one of the	其中一个
704	interesting, I find this chapter very interesting, because you have Junker Shack and Roosevelt and	有意思,我觉得这个章节非常有趣因为你有容克·夏克和罗斯福
705	Churchill sending telegrams to each other.	丘吉尔互相发送电报.
706	And Junker Shack is pushing Roosevelt, he knows that	容克·夏克在推动罗斯福他知道
707	National Congress.	国会.
708	But by the end of the Second World War, the American assessment is that at	但到第二次世界大战结束时,美国的评估是:
709	least for now, we have to restore empire.	至少现在我们必须恢复帝国
710	And it is a very sudden movement.	这是一个非常突然的运动。
711	I think in the weeks	我想这几周
712	before the Japanese surrender, the Americans take away areas where China was going to accept	在日本投降之前美国人占领了中国将要接受的地区
713	surrender.	投降吧投降吧
714	They had been responsible for at least part of Indonesia, but all that is allocated to	他们至少对印度尼西亚的部分领土负有责任,但分配给他们的所有资源都用于
715	Mountbatten, no doubt in the knowledge that what the British would do is to revive the French and	蒙巴顿,毫无疑问, 英国人会做的是重振法国人和
716	the Dutch empires.	荷兰帝国
717	And I think the argument is that, well, for now, at least we need to do this.	我认为争论是, 目前,我们至少需要这样做。
718	And then you get into the Cold War and the fight against communism and America takes a very	然后你进入冷战与共产主义和美国的斗争
719	different view.	不同观点。
720	I'm keen, I could talk to you for hours and hours, but we have all these people	我很热心,我可以跟你谈几个小时,但我们有这么多人
721	online offering brilliant questions.	网上提供精彩的问题。
722	Now I can either read them to you.	现在我可以读给你听
723	Actually, if you press	其实,如果你按
724	the chat button, Hans, you'll see we have already two very good questions.	聊天按钮,汉斯,你会看到我们已经有两个非常好的问题。
725	The top one came in from	上一位从这里进来的
726	Anthony Flynn.	安东尼·弗林
727	Can you see that one?	你能看到那个吗?
728	It's exactly on what we're talking about.	确切地说,这是我们所说的。
729	If you press the chat	如果你按下聊天键
730	tab at the bottom of your screen.	选项卡。
731	I am pressing it.	我按着它。
732	I have a very slow.	我有一个非常缓慢。
733	This will pop up.	这会冒出来。
734	So let me	让我来
735	start reading it for people who don't want to press the tab.	开始为不想按标签的人阅读.
736	So Anthony Flynn jumps right in on	所以安东尼·弗林就跳进去了
737	this question of the collapse of the European colonial empires.	这个欧洲殖民帝国崩溃的问题
738	So if Japan had never invaded	所以如果日本没有入侵
739	China in 37, would the European colonial empires in Asia still have collapsed as quickly as they	37年的中国,如果亚洲的欧洲殖民帝国仍会像他们那样迅速崩溃
740	did after 45?	在45岁之后?
741	Or was there something about Japan, even though eventually lost, that Japan's invasion	或者说,日本虽然最终失败了但日本的入侵究竟有什么意义
742	destroyed the prestige and legitimacy of European imperial rule?	摧毁了欧洲帝国统治的威望和合法性?
743	Yes.	对
744	And I sort of one point I make	我有点点
745	in the book is that one of the outcomes of all this could well have been a continuation of	书中写道这一切的结果之一很可能是...
746	European empires, perhaps in a very different way.	欧洲帝国,也许以非常不同的方式。
747	And certainly there were voices in Indonesia,	当然印度尼西亚也有声音
748	Sudan Shakir is a very good case in point.	苏丹 Shakir是一个很好的例子。
749	I thought, well, actually the Dutch and Indonesia	我想,实际上,荷兰和印度尼西亚
750	need to collaborate, but in a very different kind of political framework in which is much greater	需要合作,但在一种截然不同的政治框架中,
751	autonomy agency and so on, independent to Indonesia.	自治机构等,独立于印度尼西亚.
752	And I think so we can't just rule out all those	我想这样我们就不能排除这一切
753	possibilities.	各种可能性。
754	And certainly the British to French and so on were convinced that they would	当然,英国人对法国人,等等, 确信他们会
755	revive their empire.	恢复他们的帝国
756	I think as you say, Anthony, in your question, I think the real	正如你说的,安东尼,在你的问题中,我认为真的
757	impact of the Japanese attack, the Japanese attempt to build this new empire through military	日本试图通过军事手段建立这个新帝国
758	is that it really demonstrates that the Europeans are not the great warrior	说明欧洲人不是伟大的战士
759	races that they have assumed until then.	之前他们一直认为的种族。
760	It is that my reputation for invincibility,	是因为我无敌的名声
761	for military prowess, that is just destroyed by the fall of Singapore, where the British surrender	英国投降的新加坡的沦陷摧毁了这里
762	80,000 troops to a small Japanese force, well, small 30,000 troops.	8万人到一支小型的日军,好了,小3万人.
763	The Americans are the same	美国人也一样
764	in the Philippines, much less talked about is that the Dutch did the same, also 80,000	更别说荷兰人也是这样,
765	allied troops, mostly Dutch in this case, to the Japanese.	盟军,在这种情况下主要是荷兰人,对日军.
766	And from a military history perspective,	从军事历史的角度来看
767	the Japanese attack, occupation of Southeast Asia is a huge, is enormously successful.	日本的进攻,占领东南亚是巨大的,是巨大的成功。
768	It's	这是
769	one of the greatest military operations ever conducted.	这是史上最伟大的军事行动之一
770	You see in the archives, you see	你从档案中看到
771	the British intelligence looking at this and saying, well, how did they do this?	英国情报部门在看这个然后说他们是怎么做到的?
772	What is,	什麽是,
773	what kind of machines do they have?	他们有什么样的机器?
774	We are years away from being able to do anything like it,	我们离做这种事还有好几年
775	because all these islands in Southeast Asia, you have to have all these amphibious operations.	因为东南亚所有的岛屿, 你必须有所有这些两栖行动。
776	Nothing is as difficult anymore as amphibious operations, at least time.	没有什么比两栖行动更难了至少时间
777	Satellites would be	卫星会
778	extremely good at it.	非常擅长
779	So it's that they just demonstrate that this idea that you can't win	所以,他们只是证明这个想法,你不能赢得
780	against these Europeans, that's over.	对付这些欧洲人,结束了。
781	So the fight of white men in a prisoner of war camp	所以白人在战俘营的战斗
782	is just an extraordinary blow to kind of empire.	只是对帝国的打击
783	Let's jump to the next question from Professor	让我们跳到下一个问题从教授
784	John Ulbrich.	约翰·乌尔布里希.
785	He says, what about the Japanese invasion of the Philippines?	他说,日本入侵菲律宾怎么办?
786	Were they the only	他们是唯一
787	country not to want freedom as an American colony?	国家不想要自由作为一个美国殖民地?
788	I don't know much less about the Philippines.	我对菲律宾一无所知
789	And	还有
790	one of those problems in writing a book like this, you have to skip a number of things.	写这样一本书的问题之一你必须跳过一些事情
791	And	还有
792	I didn't talk much about Korea.	我很少谈论韩国。
793	我和Seek Podcast的人谈过了
794	I should have talked	我应该说
795	about the podcast.	关于播客。
796	We should talk more about the Seeks, which is absolutely true.	我们应该多谈一下"寻求者" 这绝对是真的
797	I should have	我应该有
798	written much more about Sumatra and should have written much more about the Philippines.	写更多关于苏门答腊的文章,
799	So I	所以说
800	don't know very much about the Philippines.	对菲律宾不太了解
801	I think the Philippines is part of the	我认为菲律宾是
802	because it really does draw the Americans in because they have this commitment to the Philippines	因为这真的吸引了美国人因为他们对菲律宾有这种承诺
803	and that's why Hawaii is important and the Pacific supply lines and all of that.	这就是为什么夏威夷是重要的太平洋的补给线和所有这一切。
804	As far as I	就我来说
805	understand, in the Philippines, there was a more ambiguous deal where the local Philippines did	在菲律宾,菲律宾当地有更模糊的交易
806	make deals with the Japanese, but also were not as willing to go as far as for instance,	与日本人做交易, 但也不愿意去,例如,
807	or so I suppose.	也许吧
808	So it's a more complicated story.	所以这个故事比较复杂.
809	That's not a good answer.	这不是一个好答案。
810	I apologize.	对不起
811	No, no, that's a great answer.	不,不,这是一个伟大的答案。
812	So we have a question from Castle about China.	我们从卡塞尔那里得到了一个有关中国的问题。
813	How has	怎么样
814	politics and society in China changed due to the war?	中国的政治和社会因为战争而改变?.
815	And how did that impact the post-war	这对战后的影响如何?
816	political landscape of the nation?	国家的政治面貌?
817	So, you know, in hindsight, were there pre-war policies?	所以,你知道,在事后看来, 是否有战前的政策?
818	But I think David already hinted at this and what it is spelled out.	但我认为大卫已经暗示了这件事以及它所描述的内容
819	Without the Second World War in China, the communists would have gone nowhere.	没有中国的第二次世界大战,共产主义者就无处可逃了.
820	And Mao Zedong recognized this when he had Japanese statesmen visiting in the 1950s.	而毛泽东在1950年代有日本政治家来访时也承认了这一点.
821	He typically Mao thanked them for invading China because otherwise the communists would still be	他典型的感谢毛泽东入侵中国否则共产党人还会是
822	in the hills, probably would have starved to death.	在山上,很可能饿死。
823	So again, these are the Second World Wars.	再说一遍,这是第二次世界大战。
824	There's lots of developments you could not have predicted.	有很多你无法预料的发展
825	Nobody would have predicted.	没人会预料到的
826	That's amazing.	这是惊人的。
827	If the same point were made by a Chinese historian that Mao Zedong made	如果说毛泽东说的中国历史学家
828	in the 1950s, they'd be charged with historical nihilism and they'd probably lose their job,	在20世纪50年代,他们会被指控历史虚无主义他们可能失去工作,
829	right?	对吧?
830	But Mao gets to break rules, I guess.	但毛泽东还是会犯规的
831	I'm afraid I have been charged with that,	恐怕我被指控过
832	but there you go.	不过你在这里。
833	But, you know, my colleagues do not fully agree when it's not a problem.	但是,你知道,我的同事并不完全同意当它不是一个问题。
834	And I think so the demise of the nationalists is very much connected to the Second World War.	我认为民族主义者的灭亡与第二次世界大战有着非常密切的联系。
835	They were condemned to fight a highly modernized and industrialized country with some of the best	他们被迫与一个高度现代化和工业化的国家进行斗争,其中有一些最好的
836	armed forces in the world from a very weak position in a society that remained hugely	世界上的武装力量在一个社会里非常脆弱
837	underdeveloped that was still struggling with famines and limited education, limited infrastructure	仍然在遭受饥荒和教育有限、基础设施有限之苦的欠发达
838	and so on.	诸如来.
839	And I think one of the things that I really hope the book brings out is that to fight	我认为,我真正希望这本书带来的一件事是战斗
840	this kind of very modern war in such poor conditions is the cause of enormous suffering	这种在如此恶劣条件下的现代战争造成了巨大的痛苦
841	throughout Asia, not just China, but also.	不仅包括中国,还包括整个亚洲
842	And I talk a little bit of famines of Henan, of course,	我说的是河南的饥荒,当然
843	and Java and Bengal.	还有爪哇和孟加拉
844	I think there were many more famines because these three were used later for	我认为还有更多的饥荒因为这三个后来被用来
845	political purposes.	政治目的。
846	And it's that reality that, you know, it just really does make you cry.	事实是,你知道, 它真的让你哭了。
847	It's	这是
848	just so horrible.	简直太可怕了
849	And this is not just about women.	这不仅仅是女人的问题。
850	It's unimaginable how awful that suffering	难以想象,多么可怕的痛苦
851	was.	曾经是。
852	Let me make one point about this, because my parents went through famine in the Netherlands	让我说一点因为我的父母在荷兰经历了饥荒
853	at the end of 1945.	1945年底时.
854	And at that point, differences between the Asian situation is not very great.	而此时,亚洲局势之间的差异并不大.
855	And one of the things I really do try, one thing I hope I can do is to sort of move us away from	我真正尝试的事情之一我希望我能做的是把我们从
856	victor-centric war, because the war is kind of easy, right?	以胜利为中心的战争, 因为战争有点容易,对不对?
857	If you live in, it's not easy,	如果你住在里面,这不容易
858	but it's not as bad as it was in Asian parts, certainly Eastern Europe and later parts of	但它并不像亚洲地区那样糟糕, 当然东欧和后来的部分
859	Western Europe.	西欧。
860	And I've always, as they say, you know, in the United States, living standards	正如他们说的,我一直在美国生活标准
861	went up.	升起来了。
862	In the UK, yes, there was rationing, and therefore people had less to eat, but their	在英国,是的,有配给, 因此人们吃得更少,但是他们的
863	decline, their health improved because they eat less.	下降,他们的健康状况得到改善,因为他们的饮食较少。
864	But of course, in Asia, it was a horror.	但是,当然,在亚洲,这是一个恐怖。
865	And in talking about the Second World War, which have been done for decades, I often find it quite	在谈论二战时,我常常发现
866	easy, instinctively, to talk with descendants of parents who have gone through similar things	很容易地,本能地, 与父母的后代交谈他们经历了类似的事情
867	than to, certainly in America, actually, where this kind of, this very dark side of the war	而不是,当然,在美国, 实际上,在那里,这种战争的黑暗面
868	is just not known.	却不知道
869	And that's it.	且道.
870	But politically, you know, it is hugely,	但在政治上,你知道,这是巨大的,
871	you wouldn't have a communist China today, unless it was for the Japanese generation.	除非是日本一代,否则你今天不会有共产主义中国.
872	We have a great question from Arthur Jang about Thailand, the only country in Southeast Asia that	我们有一个大问题来自阿瑟・张关于泰国, 东南亚唯一的国家
873	was not conquered by European empires.	没有被欧洲帝国征服
874	So did Thailand try to cooperate with Japan officially?	泰国是否正式与日本合作?
875	And how did Thailand successfully shake off the fascist puppet regime accountability?	泰国如何成功地摆脱法西斯傀儡政权的问责制?
876	Arthur says	阿瑟说
877	good questions.	问得好
878	And again, I just must say, I don't really know enough about it.	再说一次,我必须说, 我对这件事还不太了解。
879	I think	我觉得
880	Thailand had the advantage of being between the various European empires.	泰国的优势在于处于不同的欧洲帝国之间.
881	It also didn't really	也没什么
882	have the resources that these empires were after.	拥有这些帝国想要的资源
883	And I think the elites were extremely capable	我认为精英们非常有能力
884	of signaling to all sides that they were willing to stay neutral.	向各方表明他们愿意保持中立。
885	It's like Turkey in the Second	这就像土耳其在第二
886	World War, which had done some of the same things.	世界大战,它做了同样的事情。
887	So neutrality as a well-developed skill.	所以中立性是发达的技能
888	And I think that's really all I have to say about that.	我想这就是我要说的
889	So Alan, the boss of the whole show, he has a good controversial question.	因此,整个节目的老板艾伦有一个有争议的很好的问题.
890	So, you know,	所以,你知道吗,
891	Europeans have disappeared as an imperial force across Asia.	欧洲人作为帝国势力在亚洲各地消失了.
892	To what extent has China,	中国在什么程度上,
893	including the Chinese diaspora, replaced Europeans as an empire,	包括华侨取代欧洲人成为帝国
894	if you define empire as an empire of influence across Asia?	如果你把帝国定义为整个亚洲的影响力帝国?
895	An informal empire, China's informal empire.	非正式帝国,中国非正式帝国.
896	Yes, I think there's a lot to that.	是的,我觉得有很多。
897	And of course,	当然
898	it was, in Bandung, I talked a little bit about this, because you have the Asian diasporas that	在万隆,我谈了一下因为你们有亚洲侨民
899	were a great concern to the government, the new governments of Indonesia, as well as of Malaysia	印尼政府、印尼新政府以及马来西亚政府都极为关切。
900	and also Thailand.	还有泰国。
901	And then Zhou Enlai actually makes the really interesting gesture to these	然后周恩来就做了个很有趣的姿态
902	governments saying, look, we are not going to mobilize them.	政府说,你看,我们不会动员他们。
903	We're not going to do that.	我们不会那么做的
904	In return, you don't side with the Americans.	作为回报你不支持美国人
905	I think that's kind of an understood deal that was	我认为这是一种理解的交易,这是
906	developed there.	在那里发展。
907	But today, of course, China is doing exactly what the British Empire was doing,	但今天,当然,中国正在做大英帝国正在做的事,
908	trying to build the kinds of trade routes, supply lines, transport lines that it needs for its	试图建造它所需要的贸易路线、供应线、运输线
909	markets.	市场。
910	And they will also try to military protect them.	他们也会试图保护他们
911	We're seeing that, of course.	我们当然看到了
912	So I think there are similarities there.	所以我认为那里有相似之处。
913	And Alan, I have my students at Peking University,	艾伦,我还有北京大学的学生
914	or some of them, PhD students, write essays comparing the British Empire and its construction	或一些博士生,写论文比较大英帝国及其建设
915	of these trade networks and what China is doing today.	以及中国今天正在做的
916	And they see the point just as well as we	他们和我们一样明白
917	do.	说吧
918	It's a fascinating thing, isn't it?	这很迷人不是吗?
919	So much of the imperial history in Asia was these kind of	亚洲的帝国历史中有很多都是这样的
920	private companies that then morphed into kind of governmental companies.	私人公司后来变成了政府公司。
921	But it was kind of armed	但它是一种武装
922	merchants going out and building these networks of dependency and supply chains.	商人出门建立依赖和供应链网络。
923	There are very	有很多东西
924	powerful echoes.	强大的回声。
925	Τ
926	Yes, absolutely.	是的,当然。
927	So we may have, I think, a last time for one more	所以,我认为,我们也许还有最后一次
928	question.	问题。
929	We have Juliet.	我们有朱丽叶。
930	So do you talk about Japan's influence on KMT nationalism, given the	说说日本对国民党民族主义的影响吧
931	particular states of Taiwan as a colonial possession of Japan before the war and obviously	台湾作为日本在战前的殖民地
932	during the war?	在战争期间?
933	Juliet, how are you?	朱丽叶,你好吗?
934	I've seen you in my classes.	我在课堂上见过你
935	I'm well, thank you.	我很好,谢谢你。
936	Great to	不错
937	tune in.	曲调在。
938	Thank you very much for coming.	非常感谢你们能来
939	I think the influence of Japan on pre-1937 nationalism	我认为日本对1937年以前民族主义的影响
940	was probably limited.	可能是有限的。
941	Although Sun Yat-sen famously, you know, made alliances with everybody	虽然孙艺森很出名,但你知道的,他和大家结盟
942	who was willing to give them money.	谁愿意给他们钱。
943	I think the influence grows much more strongly after	我觉得影响越大越大
944	1945, because when the Chinese surrender, or when the Japanese surrender in 1945,	1945年,因为当中国投降,或者当1945年日本投降时,
945	they still control China except for communist areas and except for bits where	他们仍然控制着中国,除了共产主义地区,除了一些地方
946	the Chiang Kai-shek is located, which is Sichuan and really not very much of that island.	蒋介石即位,是四川,实际上该岛并不多.
947	So they're	所以他们是
948	dependent on the Japanese.	依赖日本人。
949	And I think, again, there are deals or understandings,	我认为,再次,有交易或谅解,
950	because what Japan at that point decides is what it does not want is a communist China.	因为当时日本决定的就是它不想要的是一个共产主义的中国.
951	So it is	原来如此
952	going to help the nationalists.	帮助民族主义者。
953	And the nationalists know that they need Japanese support.	而民族主义者知道他们需要日本的支持.
954	And there are	还有
955	military and political advisors to help them fight the communists.	军事和政治顾问帮助他们与共产主义者作战.
956	And of course, the Japanese	当然还有日本人
957	have learned a lot about fighting communists in North China during the war.	抗战时期在华北地区与共产主义者作战的学识很多.
958	And I think	我觉得
959	it struck me, at least when I went to Taiwan for the 1980s, at least police organizations	至少在我80年代去台湾的时候至少有警察组织
960	really echoed the way that the Japanese organized their police.	和日本人组织警察的方式一样
961	So I think there were echoes then,	所以我觉得当时有回声
962	deeply, probably more after 1945.	更深层,也许更多 1945年后。
963	For the first time, a lot of Japanese buildings were very	第一次,许多日本建筑非常
964	Japanese-y in its way.	日语的
965	But I think before 1945, that would have been far less.	但我认为,在1945年以前,那会少得多。
966	But not to say,	但不是说
967	of course, that much of both the KMT and the CCP military are trained or have experience of	当然,国民党和中共军队中的大多数都受过训练或有经验
968	being trained at Japanese-run military academies.	在日本开办的军事学院受训。
969	So it's a good point.	故说妙法.
970	I think much more could be	我觉得还有更多
971	said.	说
972	Thank you.	谢谢
973	We're right up against time.	我们正赶上时间。
974	And I think there are still so many unanswered	我想还有这么多人没有答复
975	questions.	问题。
976	And clearly, the only solution is for people to go and buy your book and read it.	显然,唯一的解决办法是人们去买你的书,读它。
977	And	还有
978	{\fn黑体\fs22\bord1\shad0\3aHBE\4aH00\fscx67\fscy66\2cHFFFFFF\3cH808080}那么强烈的提醒 {\fn黑体\fs22\bord1\shad0\3aHBE\4aH00\fscx67\fscy66\2cHFFFFFF\3cH808080}世界很容易被宣传变成他们
979	us, good and bad, simple narratives.	我们,好坏,简单的叙事。
980	But you have reminded us that history looks very different,	但你提醒我们历史看起来非常不同
981	depending on which side of the world you are.	取决于你是哪一边的世界。
982	It looks very different depending on what language	它看起来很不一样取决于语言
983	you speak and read.	你说话和阅读。
984	And the real history is a lot messier.	而真实的历史则更加混乱.
985	and the propaganda books.	还有宣传书
986	So it's a fantastic exercise.	因此,这是一个伟大的运动。
987	And thank you very much for letting me join you all.	非常感谢你让我加入你们
988	Thank you, David.	谢谢你,大卫
989	It was great.	这是伟大的。
990	And I wish we could continue to discussion.	我希望我们能够继续讨论。
991	Hopefully we'll have a chance in the future,	希望我们将来有机会
992	but absolutely wonderful.	但绝对是美妙的。
993	And thanks to you all for coming.	感谢大家的到来
994	Thank you very much indeed.	非常感谢
995	Thank you very much indeed,	非常谢谢你
996	and David for guiding a wonderful discussion.	大卫指导了一场精彩的讨论
997	I think there are questions that come up,	我认为有些问题出现了,
998	like one example from Melinda,	就像梅林达的一个例子
999	that I hope, Hans, you and me, we can meet.	我希望,汉斯,你和我,我们可以见面。
1000	I can stay.	我可以留下来。
1001	I'm sure David is busy.	我肯定大卫很忙
1002	Over a dinner with you all.	和你们一起吃晚饭
1003	He's a world to run, and I don't.	他是一个可以运行的世界,我不。
1004	I cannot recommend the book enough.	我不能推荐足够的书。
1005	It's a really gripping read.	这是一个真正的抓取读物。
1006	Fantastic broad picture and detailed narrative.	精彩的广阔画面和详细的叙述。
1007	Both very, very compelling.	都非常,非常有说服力。
1008	So thank you very much indeed, Hans.	非常感谢你,汉斯
1009	And thank you David for bringing out	谢谢你大卫带我出去
1010	how brilliant the book is.	书多辉煌.
1011	Thank you again, David.	再次感谢你,大卫。
1012	Enormously.	至心赞叹.
1013	We won't see you for some time.	我们不会看到你一段时间。
1014	Hans, look forward to seeing you in Beijing.	汉斯,期待在北京见到你.
1015	Thank you, David, thank you.	谢谢你,大卫,谢谢你。
1016	I'll see you soon.	后见.
1017	Yap, absolutely.	是的,绝对的。
1018	Thank you so much.	非常感谢
1019	Thank you, David, thank you.	谢谢你,大卫,谢谢你。

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